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ordinary means
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Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2008 03:31 am |
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Before the question a brief explanation:
My dad is/was Methodist when I was growing up, Baptist and now nondenominational (the kind that justify with bible verses) I just cannot bridge the gap. His interpretation of the Bible is so foreign to me. It seems like he reads the Bible without any historical context. He doesn’t see the covenantal or sacramental themes at all. He gropes so hard to justify works now that he thinks that he is suddenly “saved”.
I, of course, believe that happened when he was an infant. Now I deal with endless attempts from his perspective to “save” my family. It pains me dearly to slowly loose my relationship with my dad this way.
Why aren’t Catholics saved?
Ordinary means
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Intercessor
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Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2008 03:52 am |
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Hi, Andy,
Welcome to the CHNI forum.
Although not all protestant churches agree on the details of such matters, chances are your dad believes one can not have assurance of salvation without having understood the "plan of salvation" and without having prayed "the sinner's prayer."
Briefly, he probably wants assurance that you understand the following:
God sent His Son to die on the cross for you, to pay for your sins.
You must admit your sin and ask God's forgiveness for your sins.
You must believe that Christ died for you.
You must ask Christ to become the Lord of your life.
You must recognize that the Bible shows us how to live.
this part can go different ways: You should be baptized after having asked Christ to become the Lord of your life.
When Baptists or other fundamentalists/evangelicals assert that Catholics have not been saved, they usually mean the Catholic has never understood these steps and has never acted on them; therefore, the Catholic has no "personal relationship" with Jesus Christ and is not a Christian.
My feeling is that close relatives worried about our salvation are much easier to communicate with through responses to written material. Conversations can too easily degenerate into hurtful comments and wrong assumptions about what the loved one believes.
If your dad is willing, ask him to provide you a written booklet or article detailing what he believes you need to do. Then you can, in the privacy and quiet of your home, decide how to respond to it. Likewise you can provide your dad written material to which he can respond.
Possibly, you will want to make an agreement with your dad that any discussion of religious doctrine and beliefs will be strictly limited to such written communication between the two of you. As a parent, you have every right to protect your children from his attempts to lead them away from the Catholic faith. In your place, as an adult child I would take a very firm stance with my dad that he would be risking severe limitations on our relationship and our contact if he fails to honor this agreement.
BeckyLast edited on Tue Mar 18th, 2008 04:13 am by Intercessor
____________________
"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2008 03:57 am |
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First of all, Andy, welcome to our forum. We are a friendly bunch, and we're glad to have you here with us.
ordinary means wrote: Why aren’t Catholics saved?
I know you asked for Protestant help, but let me give you a Catholic response.
I was saved when I was baptized with water in the sacrament of Baptism, and in the Holy Spirit at my Confirmation, and when I eat the Precious Body and Precious Blood of my Savior in the Eucharist.
I am saved because today I accepted Jesus died for my sins and today, when I humbly confessed them to a priest, I received the Sacrament of Penance and my sins were forgiven. This week I will worship at the foot of the cross the Lamb of God who takes away my sins. Christmas doesn't save me; Easter doesn't save me. Good Friday saves me. I am not saved by an empty cross. I am saved by a bloody cross holding the lifeless human form of the Son of God who died for me. "O happy fault, o necessary sin of Adam, which gained for us so great a redeemer!"
I will be saved if I spend the rest of my life loving God with my whole heart, soul and mind, and my neighbor as myself, taking care of the least of God's people as my Savior commands, because by his Holy Cross he has redeemed the world.
But the man who reaches for the finish line and collapses before he crosses it does not win the race. My journey is not yet complete. It is not complete until I meet my parents and my father-in-law, and some other special people who have already made it, and in their company I get to meet my Blessed Mother and see my Savior face to face. I'm not in a hurry because I still have work to do, but I am filled with anticipation.
Who says Catholics aren't saved?
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2008 04:25 am |
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It sounds like your dad has become a true believer in the non-denominational gospel, Andy. Only one question on that score: In what way is he “justifying works"? The usual Evangelical approach is to deny that works have any bearing on one’s salvation, but to “justify works” sounds like he is overemphasizing them instead of minimizing them. I suspect this may be a matter of the meanings of words; perhaps you can clarify.
Now to your question: Why aren’t Catholics saved?
The original Protestant protest was against corruption in the Catholic Church. Without that corruption, there would never have been a Protestant Reformation. But there was, is and always will be a human element in the Church, and that human element produces corruption and sin because, as we Catholics believe, “original sin” is the human condition. This is scandalous to the Calvinistic puritan, who these days is most often represented by the non-denominational Evangelical.
The basic logic for the Reformation is that if the Church is corrupt, it is beyond repair and needs to be “re-formed.” The idea, says the non-denominational Evangelical, is to go back to the earliest and purest form of Christianity, as it is depicted in Acts, and stay with that “infancy” rather than letting Christianity have any lifespan and growth through the medium of history. Hence the lack of historical context.
Likewise with salvation. One is saved by Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. This happened in the past, in ancient times, the logic runs, so we are “saved” the moment we accept that sacrifice as our own. No need for sacraments, like baptism, to “wash away” our sins (cf. Acts 22:16), except as a kind of sign or confirmation that we have already been justified by our faith. Therefore, the emphasis is on the decision of faith, not the sacred act. And, of course, this is what is preached to non-believers, like Catholics, so they can be saved as well.
I know the pain you suffer. My own father was an Evangelical at heart, too. He did not believe in organized religion, but more in a Jesus-and-me relationship, so he seldom attended worship anywhere, but he did read his bible. He had harsh words for the Catholic Church, especially when I left Protestantism to become Catholic.
Perhaps the one thing that will help you is to pray for your father. Not that he will respond quickly or easily, but that he will come to the truth before he dies. For it normally takes a long, long time and lots of sad experience for the truth to reach the true believer.
David
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hpj0828
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Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2008 10:37 pm |
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How about some Jewish help?
Here's my take on it.
God commanded that entrance into the Covenant between a Jewish man and God was by the rite of circumcision:
Genesis 17:9 God said further to Abraham, "Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations.
10 "This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised.
11 "And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you. New American Standard Bible
So it would be easy for me as a Jewish man to believe that I am right with God simply because I am circumcised.
Yet, John the Baptist addressed this kind of attitude:
Lk 3:7 He therefore began saying to the multitudes who were going out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 "Therefore bring forth fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father,’ for I say to you that God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham.
9 "And also the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." New American Standard Bible
Apparently, having been circumcised as a baby, being a "son of Abraham" by descent, is not enough to make me right with God. It is necessary, but not sufficient. Something more is required, without which I could end up "thrown into the fire."
But John wasn't saying anything new here. Moses himself preached a similar message:
Deuteronomy 10:12 "And now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require from you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all His ways and love Him, and to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul,
13 and to keep the LORD’S commandments and His statutes which I am commanding you today for your good?
14 "Behold, to the LORD your God belong heaven and the highest heavens, the earth and all that is in it.
15 "Yet on your fathers did the LORD set His affection to love them, and He chose their descendants after them, even you above all peoples, as it is this day.
16 "Circumcise then your heart, and stiffen your neck no more.
New American Standard Bible
A circumcision of the heart is required, as well as a circumcision of the flesh. When my heart is circumcised unto the Lord, I will have the right intention to fear Him, love Him and serve Him with all my heart and soul. It takes both circumcisions to be a true son of Abraham.
In Jewish thought, the true "sons of Abraham" are those who follow in the footsteps of Abraham, that is they have faith in God and are faithful to God's commandments as Abraham was.
So, two things are required:
1. The right form: The Jew must be circumcised by rite in obedience to God's command.
2. The right intention: The Jew must love and obey the Lord his God with all his heart, soul and strength. Needless to say, such love and obedience imply a saving faith in one's own heart.
So, the Catholic and the Protestant should be able to agree:
1. The right form: A Christian cannot obey the Great Commission of Christ without being baptised:
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." New American Standard Bible
2. The right intention: The Christian must have a saving trust in God and love for God in his heart that result in his obeying God's commandments.
Without both of these, neither the Protestant, nor the Catholic pleases God.
I would be interested to know if your father is able to hear this from a Jew?
Shalom!
Henry
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HPJ
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EMarshallBuckles
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Posted: Wed Mar 19th, 2008 07:09 am |
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Well, there is much wise information and advice above this post! As for me, speaking as a Baptist who greatly respects and enjoys chatting with my dear Roman Catholic brothers and sisters on these forums (as well as learning more about the Roman Catholic Church), I would respectfully yet firmly argue with anyone who says that my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters are not saved. I believe that they ARE saved! And, Andy, if you,too, believe in Jesus Christ as the Virgin born, crucified, risen, living Son of God as your Lord and Savior then you, too, are saved. And I say that leaving wide open the door to the possibility that the Roman Catholic Church may well be the true church and other denominations Christian yet not the true church. However, the most important thing to me - and apparently to God (Who's perspective is exponentially more important than my humble human perspective) - is that you believe as mentioned above and like Jesus said in John 3:16. Denominations will probably discuss and debate whether or not Sacraments or "Ordinances" are the intention of God for us from now until the end of time when Jesus will settle the question for us. Meanwhile, faith is the key whether one believes in Sacraments or Ordinances.
As for your father, well, like I say, Protestants and Catholics will probably debate these matters until the end of time, however, many Protestants have been raised in denominations which try to go back to what they believe was happening around the time Jesus was here on earth in person and after His ascension when the Holy Spirit arrived. I grew up in an independent Christian Church and later joined a Baptist church, and my experience with them is that while their scholars may study some parts of church history, what happened between around the time just after St. Paul died his martyr's death and St. John died of old age and the time that their denomination was formed tends to be largely ignored by most of the people of that denomination and they also tend to focus on the present and not think much about the past other than the time of Jesus and thereabouts. In recent years, I have been having a great time learning about the "in between time", all the saints and blesseds and so forth! I feel so much more connected with my brothers and sisters in Christ of the past now and honor what they did to help get the Gospel to me! I am so grateful to them for their service to Christ!
Of course, without going into all the psychology and sociology involved, as well as the politics and spiritual implications, I know that some denominations pretty much regard themselves as being the "one true church" (speaking of some Protestants, I mean), however, for those who truly believe in Christ, even with their sad delusion of exclusiveness, I think that they are going to be very surprised to look around heaven, some day, and see their Catholic brothers and sisters there with them as well as other denomination members. Anyway, at this point, all you can do is just "agree to disagree" with your father on some Christian issues and find issues where you do agree. I have the same situation with my dear, elderly Christian Church mother. We agree about what we can agree on and pretty much try not to discuss what we don't agree about. And we pray for each other and wait for that day when we will be in heaven with my Presbyterian earthly father and my Roman Catholic brother (still living). Speaking of my brother, interestingly, the Roman Catholic Church accepted his Christian Church baptism while the particular Baptist church I first joined did NOT accept my Christian Church baptism and required me to be rebaptized which I did, prayerfully, as an act of fellowship with them.
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Intercessor
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Posted: Thu Mar 20th, 2008 05:41 am |
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CajunRick wrote:
. . . Christmas doesn't save me; Easter doesn't save me. Good Friday saves me. I am not saved by an empty cross. I am saved by a bloody cross holding the lifeless human form of the Son of God who died for me. . . .
I've been waiting for someone else to comment, but nobody has. What about 1 Corinthians 15, especially verse 17? For Baptists, the empty cross represents both the terrible suffering of the Lord and His glorious resurrection. St. Paul seems to be saying that without the resurrection, that awful agony on the cross would have accomplished nothing. St. John Chrysostom seems to support that position also in his commentary on 1 Corinthians.
"For in fact all depends on the resurrection."
Click here for Chrysostom 3902-3903 on 1 Corinthians--bibliaclerus.
1 Corinthians 15:14-18 RSV
14 if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified of God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised. 17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
Theologians on the forum, what say ye?
Becky
Last edited on Thu Mar 20th, 2008 07:26 am by Intercessor
____________________
"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Mar 20th, 2008 11:54 am |
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Intercessor wrote: [size=CajunRick wrote:
. . . Christmas doesn't save me; Easter doesn't save me. Good Friday saves me. I am not saved by an empty cross. I am saved by a bloody cross holding the lifeless human form of the Son of God who died for me. . . .
St. Paul seems to be saying that without the resurrection, that awful agony on the cross would have accomplished nothing. ]
The resurrection makes the cross salvific. Many people died on the cross, but only one saved us. The salvific act is still the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. Lazarus was resurrected. Acts tells us that after Easter, many left their graves. Their resurrection did not save us, just as all are born but even the incarnation of Christ does not save us.
The salvific act is the death of Jesus on the cross. The resurrection gives it meaning. That's why we're an "Easter people". But we are still not saved by an empty cross, because it is the blood of Christ that makes it savific.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Mar 20th, 2008 12:43 pm |
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If we are squeamish and prefer not to look upon the blood and gore of our Savior’s sacrifice for our sins, how do we think to face the sight of our sins themselves, which is much worse?
Romans 4:24–25: “It [our act of faith] will be reckoned [as righteousness] to us who believe in him that raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.”
Without Jesus’ agony and bloody death on the cross, there is no sacrifice to atone for our sins. Without his resurrection, there is neither a new and eternal life of grace for us. Both/and.
“What is not assumed is not redeemed” (famous patristic saying). It is the death that makes the resurrection possible.
David
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Intercessor
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Posted: Thu Mar 20th, 2008 01:16 pm |
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Thanks, Rick and David,
My post had nothing to do with squeamishness about the bloody cross. (I have a crucifix in almost every room of my home.) Rather, I wanted to give you a chance to clarify Catholic doctrine with regard to the meaning of Easter, for the benefit of Protestant inquirers who incorrectly believe that we Catholics are so focused on the crucifixion that we fail to recognize the importance, theologically, of the resurrection.
As you say, it is both/and, not just one without the other.
Becky
____________________
"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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EMarshallBuckles
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Posted: Thu Mar 20th, 2008 04:25 pm |
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Before saying what I will say, please kindly bear in mind that I have paralegal training and used to work with a whole bunch of Judges and attorneys for over 15 years, so I tend to "think like a lawyer", oftentimes (not always, just usually) and can argue both sides of an issue dispassionately, ha, ha! 'Scuse me! I think I am starting to recover now and no longer drool quite so much, ha, ha!  Also, I do greatly respect and admire and like a great deal my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters no matter what so always remember that, please! Anyway, "putting on my protestant hat", so to speak (pay no attention to the horns, ha, ha ), I remember at First Baptist of Richmond, our pastor, at the time, Rev. Dr. Peter James Flamming had once commented, speaking of people generally, explaining and not being critical, that various denominations tend to regard the cross in different ways, having different emphasis. Some denominations (can't remember which ones he said, just now, sorry), he said, have a "pre-cross" emphasis, focusing on Jesus before He was on the cross. Roman Catholics, he alleged (don't blame Marshall, didn't say it, ha, ha) have a focus on Jesus ON the cross. Baptists and some others, he said, have a focus on Jesus "post-cross", using an empty cross when the cross is used. Personally speaking, and without regard to what Dr. Flamming said, I tend to have a "multi-focus" according to my needs at the time. At times, I focus my thoughts on Jesus before the cross, at other times, such as in times of suffering, I focus on Jesus ON the cross, at other times, I focus on Jesus after the cross. I will offer my opinion that sometimes it seems to me that protestants (and I have become uncomfortable with the word "protestant", I don't necessarily "protest" anything) sometimes "sanitize" the cross to the point that they become forgetful, or at least, kind of "diminish" the suffering of Jesus on the cross, sometimes they seem to lose sight of the cross as what it was - an instrument of terrible torture, suffering and death which Jesus endured for us.
Also, I will add to what I have said, for Andy's benefit in case he hasn't completely realized it yet, that protestants don't pray to Mary. Some tend to regard her as being sort of "among the crowd", like the faceless, nameless disciples we read about in the Bible, part of the scenery but not an integral part of it. Some, like me, do realize that Mary was the greatest woman who has ever lived, just an incredibly outstanding, excellent servant of Christ and a wonderful example for us all who was offered and accepted the great opportunity to serve our Lord Jesus Christ, to serve God, in a special way that nobody else ever has or ever will accepting the risk to her own life, to her own being, accepting the trials and tribulations of that as well as the joys and wonder of that. We regard Mary as a Senior Sister in Christ, who sets a wonderful example for us and tells us to - as she said to the servants who prepared the water containers for Jesus to do His first recorded miracle, "Do what He tells you", pointing us to service for Jesus. We do not pray to her or regard her as being a "co-redemtrix", so to speak, however, we leave open the door, so to speak, that she may be praying for us in heaven and may have had some post death appearances on earth in service to her Son and Savior (and I hope that she IS praying for us and that she HAS appeared). I do love her and have filial (that of a child for a mother) feelings towards her. I do thank God for her service to Him and to all of humankind and know that she is one great, special lady whom I hope to meet in heaven someday. Even so, she is, to me and to many others, a fellow-servant of Christ (greater than others) and I don't pray to her although, again, I leave open the door that she may well be able to see me from heaven and may pray for me and, again, I hope that she does and thank her if she does. I think that many protestants are coming to a greater appreciation of Mary - as she is certainly due, without question - yet I do think that the more active "Marian devotion", so to speak, is a kind of "stumbling block" to some protestants. There is sort of a feeling, humorously speaking (and please pardon my gentle humor, I just use it as an example), that Catholics will get to heaven and say "Hi, Jesus! Wonderful to see you, Lord! Be right with you, but, first, I want to see Mary!!!" When I get to heaven, Mary would, of course, be the one I would like to see SECOND, after first spending time with my Lord and God Jesus Christ, so to speak (with seeing my beloved relatives and friends thereafter too).
Also, just to continue to share some things, protestants tend to feel that while praying over children as infants, "dedicating them", as Baptists say, is fine, they tend to feel that we must achieve a certain age of accountability at which time we must, if we wish to follow Christ and be saved, accept Jesus Christ as the Virgin born, crucified, risen, living Son of God and accept His salvation of us in order to be saved. Some protestants agree with Catholics that baptism is a sacrament and that salvation comes about through faith AND being baptized (the Christian church denomination believes that, yet, oddly, they do NOT believe in sacraments - go figure  ) . Some protestants, like Baptists, believe that faith is the key and that one should be baptized yet that faith in Christ is what matters and that baptism is just an outward sign of what has already happened within. Protestants vary on the method of baptism. Some feel that, as do Catholics, that using the font and pouring the water is sufficient while some, like Baptists and the Christian Church denomination among others, believe that one must be totally imersed in water. One denomination, the Brethren, also called "dunkards" due to "dunking" people, ha, ha, believes in dipping one completely in the water three seperate times, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Well, I could share more, however, I gotta go fix lunch for my daughter and call my wife, however, I am sure you get the idea. I just share all the above for whatever helpful in formation it may provide. I am not trying to convince you of anything or be critical of anyone. Lessee, now, I am thinking maybe ham sandwiches for lunch with chocolate chip cookies for dessert! Anway, I wish you all a happy Easter weekend as we remember the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ! Alleluia, AMEN!!
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Hidden One
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Posted: Thu Mar 20th, 2008 09:11 pm |
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Also, I will add to what I have said, for Andy's benefit in case he hasn't completely realized it yet, that protestants don't pray to Mary.
Some do. But, as you said, most don't.
____________________
1 John 4:7-12
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EMarshallBuckles
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Posted: Thu Mar 20th, 2008 09:30 pm |
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| Yep, as Hidden One reminded me, some protestants, such as some high church Episcopalians or Anglicans do pray to Mary. And, mind you please, I leave open the possibility that Mary may well hear prayers and pray in a more perfect way to God for us. As the verse says, "we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses". I love the idea of that and would feel very grateful for their prayers if they are praying for us! As is true of many protestants, I do regard Jesus Christ, our virgin born, crucified, risen, living Lord and Savior as the source of Mary's salvation and of my own and of anyone else who believes. Like the angels, she is my fellow servant - a very special, wonderful lady who served God well, yet still not the source of my salvation Jesus being that source. I hope that someday Catholics and Protestants can come to some sort of agreement about Mary's role in the eternal scheme of things, however, I have always heard Protestants speak highly of Mary and honor her. She is a wonderful example of Christian service for us all to follow and she does point us to Jesus and say "do what He says".
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Thu Mar 20th, 2008 09:37 pm |
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some protestants, such as some high church Episcopalians or Anglicans do pray to Mary.
And they often object to being categorized as "Protestants" in the first place. 
Anglicans wanted to call themselves simply "Catholic" from the beginning. In fact, that is the historical origin of the widespread use of "Roman Catholic," because they were trying to distinguish the real Catholics from the alleged ones who no longer even believed in the primacy of the pope.
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Hidden One
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| Joined: | Thu Feb 28th, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 123 |
| First Name: | H1 | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | lax Presbyterian -> pseudo-Arminian non-denom -> heretical Presbyterian -> ... |
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Posted: Thu Mar 20th, 2008 09:38 pm |
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Yep, as Hidden One reminded me, some protestants, such as some high church Episcopalians or Anglicans do pray to Mary.
As do random other Protestants who've come to the conclusion that praying to the saints is indeed valid. (I personally know a nominal Pentecostal in that position.)
As is true of many protestants, I do regard Jesus Christ, our virgin born, crucified, risen, living Lord and Savior as the source of Mary's salvation and of my own and of anyone else who believes.
As is true of Catholics, too.
She is a wonderful example of Christian service for us all to follow and she does point us to Jesus and say "do what He says".
Very. 
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1 John 4:7-12
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EMarshallBuckles
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 19th, 2007 |
| Location: | Rockville (Near Richmond), Virginia USA |
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| First Name: | Marshall | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Christian Church,Episcopal Church,Baptist denomination,learning about RCC |
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Posted: Thu Mar 20th, 2008 09:59 pm |
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Dave Armstrong wrote: And they often object to being categorized as "Protestants" in the first place.
Yeah, personally speaking, I just do not feel comfortable with the word "Protestant" being applied to me any more. ARRGH!!! Does this mean I am turning into a - dare I speak it - CATHOLIC!!!  How will I ever explain it to my wife!!! SIGH! Ya'll are corrupting this ol' Baptist boy!!
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nominal Methodist / evangelical non-denom / "Bapticostal" / Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Mar 20th, 2008 10:49 pm |
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I just do not feel comfortable with the word "Protestant" being applied to me any more. ARRGH!!! Does this mean I am turning into a - dare I speak it - CATHOLIC!!!
I think so, Marshall! That little "clue" might be regarded as a dead give-away, no? 
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
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Posted: Fri Mar 21st, 2008 06:24 pm |
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EMarshallBuckles wrote: SIGH! Ya'll are corrupting this ol' Baptist boy!!
We sure are working on it!
Someone told me the other day Baptists don't actually oppose drinking alcohol, they're just afraid if they get drunk they might dance! 
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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kimdyuma
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
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Posted: Fri Mar 21st, 2008 07:07 pm |
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No kidding- that one stings- and boy my former parishioners will tell you they are NOT protestant but HOLY CAtholic
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EMarshallBuckles
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 19th, 2007 |
| Location: | Rockville (Near Richmond), Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 524 |
| First Name: | Marshall | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Christian Church,Episcopal Church,Baptist denomination,learning about RCC |
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Posted: Sat Mar 22nd, 2008 05:57 am |
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Marshall floats down the Tiber River on his Baptist barge, tooting the air horn and waving at the Pope and good folks of Coming Home Forums! Happy Easter! 
PS - Baptists are like cats, you know that they raise heck, you just can't catch 'em at it!! Ha, ha!
Attachment: BoatingonTiber.jpg (Downloaded 41 times)
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abbycat
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Posted: Wed Mar 26th, 2008 08:45 pm |
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To this I can speak a bit .... there is no, or very little, historical content in the Protestant denominations. Their roots are shallow, with some exception, and often you will find if "one group" doesn't like the way things are going ... they'll just leave and start another church! It is sad ... there is little authority other than within the confines of their own small church, again with some exception such as those that do have a larger umbrella organization. I just had a conversation today with a girlfriend who is staunchly in the camp of "getting people saved" .... a camp I sat in for many a year. Only God knows our hearts, but for those who have been reared in this mindset since day 1, it is "the" only way. Again ... no firm roots, but rules of man ... not from a historical, ages-old perspective, but from a more recent decision.
I am afraid the Protestant church, in general, has thrown the baby out with the bathwater. In their attempt to break away from what they saw as legalistic and restrictive, they did not take the time to save what was necessary and precious ... that being the roots of the tree ... it's very historical foundation.
abby
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