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rose may
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Posted: Tue Aug 28th, 2007 09:33 am |
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I have a moral dilemma I am not sure what to do with and am looking for advice.
I spent a great deal of time with a man this summer building a close friendship. We are both single Catholics. We had no physical involvement whatsoever and I assumed that it was because we were "taking it slow" and building a friendship in an appropriate way before getting further involved.
About 3 weeks ago he informed me that he was romantically involved with another woman, who happens to be 25 years younger than him (he is 45, she is 23). I had absolutely no idea this was going on and it was especially shocking because she is a friend of mine's daughter.
Unfortunately, he lives just down the street, and I pass his house every morning on the way to daily mass and see her car parked in front of it each morning.
The moral dilemma is this: This man is a communion minister at our church, in that he delivers communion to the homebound. And he is also recieving communion each Sunday. Last Sunday, her car was parked in front of his house as I went to mass, he was there at mass recieving communion and then went home to her.
I am not sure if it is appropriate for me to say something to him about recieving communion or to someone else about him delivering communion to the homebound under these circumstances. Perhaps it's none of my business anymore. I did tell him what I thought of him being with someone so young and violating the laws of chastity but that didn't stop him.
Advice or perspective welcome.
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Annie
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Posted: Tue Aug 28th, 2007 09:47 am |
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| Does "romantically involved" mean having sex (I am naive)? Having his car parked by her house doesn't necessarily mean having his shoes parked under her bed. If you can talk to him on this level, tell him what is bothering you and ask if you are legitimately concerned or if he is just sleeping in the guest room. Of course, there is the big issue of appearances and we must all as Christians scrupulously avoid even the slightest hint of impropriety but some people don't believe this.
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
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NanaR
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| First Name: | Ruth | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Born JW, born-again Catholic (Tiber Swim Team 2008) |
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Posted: Tue Aug 28th, 2007 10:29 am |
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rose may wrote: I have a moral dilemma I am not sure what to do with and am looking for advice.
I spent a great deal of time with a man this summer building a close friendship. We are both single Catholics. We had no physical involvement whatsoever and I assumed that it was because we were "taking it slow" and building a friendship in an appropriate way before getting further involved.
About 3 weeks ago he informed me that he was romantically involved with another woman, who happens to be 25 years younger than him (he is 45, she is 23). I had absolutely no idea this was going on and it was especially shocking because she is a friend of mine's daughter.
Unfortunately, he lives just down the street, and I pass his house every morning on the way to daily mass and see her car parked in front of it each morning.
The moral dilemma is this: This man is a communion minister at our church, in that he delivers communion to the homebound. And he is also recieving communion each Sunday. Last Sunday, her car was parked in front of his house as I went to mass, he was there at mass recieving communion and then went home to her.
I am not sure if it is appropriate for me to say something to him about recieving communion or to someone else about him delivering communion to the homebound under these circumstances. Perhaps it's none of my business anymore. I did tell him what I thought of him being with someone so young and violating the laws of chastity but that didn't stop him.
Advice or perspective welcome.
Rose,
One of the things I really love about the Catholic faith is that we are always being called on to examine OURSELVES.
If your friend is taking communion while in a state of mortal sin, he is adding another mortal sin on top of the first. That is between him and the Lord, or him and his confessor should he choose to confess.
If you feel close enough to this person to admonish him in a spirit of love (not of judgment), then do so. But I would advise against drawing your own conclusions or judging him based on your opinion. After all, you mention that you spent a great deal of time with the gentlemen and had no physical involvement. Is it possible that this situation is the same for him?
Just my two cents. But you did ask.
Ruth
____________________
When you bend down to help someone up, that is the best exercise for your heart. -- Fr. Noe, 2007
http://nanaruthann.blogspot.com
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Aug 28th, 2007 02:41 pm |
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rose may wrote: Advice or perspective welcome.
First, let me welcome you to our little Internet neighborhood. We're happy to have you join us. Feel free to participate in our discussions, and we look forward to reading your faith story when you're comfortable enough to share it with us.
As to your question, keep in mind that Jesus told us not to judge others lest we be judged by the same standard. If you are truly concerned for his soul, you could remind him about Catholic teaching on sexuality and morality by giving him a copy of a book or document on the subject, which should be available at any religious bookstore. John Paul II's Theology of the Body would be a good choice.
If your motivation is other than a true, loving concern for his salvation, such as a resentment that he did not wish to become romantically involved with you, you should leave your feelings at the church door. We should not approach communion unless we feel true love for all of our brothers and sisters. That is the ultimate message that Jesus conveyed to us when he said "do this in memory of me". He was referring not only to the Eucharist, but to his entire life and ministry. Remember how Jesus treated the woman caught in adultery. He ate with prostitutes and tax collectors. He councseled the woman at the well.
But the difference is that Jesus knew what was in their hearts, and what sins they were committing, and he still didn't condemn them.
So ask yourself, "what would Jesus do?" and then do it.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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rose may
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Posted: Tue Aug 28th, 2007 05:57 pm |
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Interesting responses. Apparently the real issue at hand is my temptation to judge him for his actions. I guess because he is Catholic I was holding him to higher standards. I need to be careful of doing this, and also of expecting other Catholics to uphold the commandments and becoming self-righteous in my own attempts to do so.
I am wrestling hard with transcending my feelings and responding in an appropriate manner. I realize forgiveness, mercy, love and compassion are the noblest responses but I find myself feeling a bit like the older brother in the prodigal son parable. Therefore I am in a more precarious position than he is.
We should not approach communion unless we feel true love for all of our brothers and sisters.
Who among us is worthy then? This statement makes me feel like perhaps I am the one who should not be recieving communion rather than him, becuase I am dealing with feelings of betrayal, being decieived, and shock at his relations with my friend's daughter. What then is true love? Is true love tolerance of whatever behaviour someone chooses?
Remember how Jesus treated the woman caught in adultery. He ate with prostitutes and tax collectors. He councseled the woman at the well. But the difference is that Jesus knew what was in their hearts, and what sins they were committing, and he still didn't condemn them.
This sort of sounds like anything goes. The priest at last Sundays mass recited Augsutine's "Love, and do what you want". What are all the moral teachings about if Jesus doesn't condemn us, but rather the ones who judge us? This is difficult for me to understand.
I appreciate the responses, this has been a difficult situation for me to negotiate. I can't really discuss it with anyone becuase it's a bit scandalous and he's a public figure in a small town.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Aug 28th, 2007 06:21 pm |
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rose may wrote: Interesting responses. Apparently the real issue at hand is my temptation to judge him for his actions. I guess because he is Catholic I was holding him to higher standards. I need to be careful of doing this, and also of expecting other Catholics to uphold the commandments and becoming self-righteous in my own attempts to do so.
Please don't misunderstand my point. If in fact he is in an illicit sexual relationship, he is guilty of a grave sin. If he is receiving the Eucharist while being in a state of unforgiven mortal sin, he has compounded his guilt. If he is Catholic, he certainly should be aware of that fact. If he is not, then charity demands he be informed.
But it is also valid to ask your motive for wanting to do so, and that was the point I was trying to make. Do you wish to act out of concern for his soul, or to seek revenge? You obviously feel betrayed, so you should examine your own soul first to make certain that your concerns and intentions are not motivated by your own self interest.
If you were a disinterested third party who had not been involved with him in any fashion, my advice might be different. However, since you have been personally
involved with him, you need to make certain your own motives are not to cause him emotional harm as retribution.
Perhaps the best course of action might be to inform your pastor discretely of your suspicions, and let him handle it. It is his responsibility to see to it that Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion maintain the moral standards expected by the Church, so you would not be out of line in calling it to his attention. Then, let it go.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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rose may
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Posted: Tue Aug 28th, 2007 06:38 pm |
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Thanks for the clarification, Rick. I am examining my own motives, and have done nothing because I don't believe I have pure intentions at this point. Perhaps it's really not my business to be involved at all and I should simply disengage from the situation entirely as it's too confusing for me.
I do think that before going to the pastor, I would confront him directly about ministering communion under the circumstances, but I think I would only do this if God created the opportunity, which hasn't happened yet.
I imagine it's not uncommon for communion minsters to be in a state of mortal sin. As with priests, I am told we are supposed to regard them as a vessel for the sacrament and not be overly concerned with their personal dealings. I guess his example will ultimately help me be a more forgiving and less judgemental person in the end.
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Tina in Ashburn
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Posted: Tue Aug 28th, 2007 07:40 pm |
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Aren't there steps for fraternal correction? Does anybody know how that works? Can somebody elaborate on this? Something like...
1. verify the wrongdoing [face-to-face]
2. if applicable, admonish and educate the sinner in charity
3. no gossip, calumny, or slander allowed
4. don't judge subjectively the interior disposition of others, we can only judge objective exterior action
5. keep in mind we ourselves are sinners, "there, but for the Grace of God, go I" denying ourselves indulging in smugness, one-up-manship, competitiveness, envy or any of that
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Tina
Arlington Diocese
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Tue Aug 28th, 2007 10:39 pm |
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Rose
I just wanted to pause and welcome you to the forum. We are very happy to have you and I look forward to your post.
Your situation is a difficult one and unfortuneate that you have to live down the street. Others have given you far better advise on dealing with your situation.
I have someone close to me that gets herself into similar situations that I'm trying to cousel and having a hard time with it. This type of situation is not easy for me to understand, as I've been married since I was just a kid and have to work hard to keep charity and understanding in my heart for this particular type of sin. I keep having to tell myself that although I don't suffer from this type of sin, that I do have issues and fall dreadfully short in many sins that others don't seem to suffer with. So I guess we all have our own crosses to bare.
God Bless and welcome to the forum
Betty
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Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Wed Aug 29th, 2007 02:02 am |
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Hi Rose May, welcome to the forum! We're glad to hear from you and look forward to sharing with you.
As for the situation you described, I'm just wondering, how good a friend is this girl's mother with you? How does she feel about her daughter spending this much time with a man 22 years older than she is? There are some friends I'm not close enough with that I would say anything, but there are some friends I would, because we are that close and can discuss anything.
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rose may
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Posted: Thu Aug 30th, 2007 09:54 am |
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Well I had a phone conversation last night. He called in an attempt to clear the air between us, which I appreciated. I guess I was pretty frank about feeling led on, and he said it had never even occured to him that I might be interpreting all the time we spent together as a mutual interest in each other.
I told him that I didn't think it was right for him to be ministering communion to the homebound in light of the circumstances, and he responded in a sort of "how dare you judge me" way, and said that he believes that it is a "matter of the heart" and sees no reason that he shouldn't distribute communion or recieve it because his "heart's in the right place".
I'm realizing more than ever that this situation is way too confusing for me, and I have no right to interfere with this man's life. He was hoping we could still continue the friendship as it was, but I am no longer comfortable. Am I out of line to let his private business come between us like this? I feel like I'm being self-righteous because I have strong convictions about sexual sin, having seen the devastation it can wreak firsthand. Are we supposed to exercise tolerance of this sort of thing in the same way we might be tolerant of an alcoholic, recognizing it as a sickness?
I appreciate having a place to discuss this, as I have been wrestling with this alone and it helps to get some perspective.
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pam
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Posted: Thu Aug 30th, 2007 12:51 pm |
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Hi Rose,
Welcome to the forum!
One reason I'm drawn to the Catholic Church is the faithfulness to our call to holiness.
Titus 2:11-14 "For the grace of God has appeared, saving all and training us to reject godless ways and worldly desires and to live temperately, justly, and devoutly in this age, as we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to deliver us from all lawlessness and to cleanse for himself a people as his own, eager to do what is good."
It's not "self-righteous" to take a stand against immorality. I'm glad you could talk openly and honestly with him about the situation. You handled this very well.
God bless you, Rose.
Last edited on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 02:41 pm by pam
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Annie
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Posted: Thu Aug 30th, 2007 01:18 pm |
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rose may wrote:
I'm realizing more than ever that this situation is way too confusing for me, and I have no right to interfere with this man's life. He was hoping we could still continue the friendship as it was, but I am no longer comfortable. Am I out of line to let his private business come between us like this?
You are not out of line at all. There is a universal call to holiness and we are each called to respoond to it. And there is a higher standard for Extraordinary Ministers who have to have their hands consecrated by the bishop to do what they do. We all must avoid even the appearance of impropriety, especially if we are in official positions in the Church.
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
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rose may
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Posted: Thu Aug 30th, 2007 02:00 pm |
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I am not sure that he would be considered an extraordinary minister. I don't think he had to have his hands consecrated by the bishop or anything like that. He doesn't help to give communion during the services, he only picks it up after the mass and brings it around to the homebound. I don't think he had to get any special training to do this, although I am unsure of this.
I guess I get a bit frustrated that taking a stong stand for morality often means alienating myself, being seen as judgemental, and creating a negative witness. It seems like a very narrow line to walk and I am reminded of many parables that showed Jesus' disdain for the Pharisees and their attiutdes about sinners.
I'm afraid this whole situation has just shown me how much work I have yet to do to be a truly loving daughter of the church, because I am amazed at the range of emotion this has triggered in me, in spite of a great deal of time spent in prayer over this. I don't think that my struggles are helping him.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Aug 30th, 2007 03:49 pm |
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rose may wrote:I don't think that my struggles are helping him.
Maybe not, but the important thing is that they are helping you.
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Aug 30th, 2007 08:17 pm |
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rose may wrote: Am I out of line to let his private business come between us like this?
No. We love the sinner, but hate the sin. We cannot judge the sinfulness of the individual, but we can certainly judge the behavior as something we choose not to associate with. I choose not to associate with drug addicts and alcoholics, and I am very uncomfortable among racists and those who use profanity. That means I choose not to associate with several members of my extended family. So be it. I don't confront them, but I make no secret of it. In some cases I am so uncomfortable I will leave a room if they walk in.
This does not mean I am judging them as sinners; it means I am judging their behavior as something I do not choose to have in my presence. That is my right, just as it is my right to avoid a room full of smokers. I do not wish the smokers to pollute my lungs, and I do not wish the others to pollute my soul. I am willingly giving up their friendship because I am unwilling to accept their behavior, but my response is not to demand they change, it is to leave their presence.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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mg57
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Posted: Thu Aug 30th, 2007 11:44 pm |
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Rose -
You mentioned -
"he informed me that he was romantically involved with another woman".
It wasn't clear to me whether the word "was" meant in the past, or "was" currently romantically involved, - while at the same time cultivating a relationship with you.
Aside from misleading you for a time, his actions are / were public, as you descibed them, and, at the least, he doesn't seem concerned about any impressions this might leave as Christian aside from any other considerations. So many of us are unfortunately more culturally centered than Christ centered than we realize.
http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/girm/lit4.shtml
http://www.usccb.org/laity/laymin/co-workers.pdf
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Tina in Ashburn
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Posted: Fri Aug 31st, 2007 12:12 am |
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MG57, Interesting links. Its improbable that someone taking communion to the sick isn't properly trained as an Extraordinary Minister. But not impossible. Verifying that the laity is properly trained and understand norms of behavior is ultimately the duty of the priest.
Other laymen can bring good information to errant Extraordinary Ministers, but the enforcement is really the priest's duty, right?
Rose, you have a complex situation there... I don't envy you in the least. Chin up, dear.
How is it Catholics sometimes act so... uh ... human???
____________________
Tina
Arlington Diocese
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Darlene
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Posted: Fri Aug 31st, 2007 11:46 pm |
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After your post Tina, I thought of an expression that was popular on bumper stickers not that many years ago. "I'm not perfect, just forgiven."
Now I'll tell ya, every time I saw one of those stickers, I wanted to rip it off the car! Yeah, I'm not perfect, and I don't have to be, cuz Jesus forgave my sins, past, present and future. I'm not perfect and if you see me in a bar somewhere drunk out of my mind, remember, I'm forgiven. I'm not perfect, don't ever intend to be, don't need to be, don't want to be, and won't strive to be, cuz it's all a matter of His grace, not my works. I'm not perfect, but I am forgiven, so if you see me doing or saying something that offends you or God, well that's just too bad. After all, the Lord says, judge not lest ye be judged. I'm not perfect and neither are you, so there.
That felt so good to get out of my system.     Whooah!!
Darlene, a servant of Jesus Christ, who is striving to live by faith, pick up my cross daily, with the hope of seeing my Lord face to face one day.
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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rose may
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Posted: Fri Sep 21st, 2007 10:34 am |
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Hi all:
I'm still stuggling with this situation. The "free union" affair (as the Catechism calls it) has continued as her car is faithfully parked there every night. I feel bad for his 13 year old daughter who lives with him and the example it is giving her, although the daughter never goes to mass with him so I'm not sure what her relationship to the church is.
He continues to adminster communion to the homebound, and I am disturbed by this. If I "discreetly" say something to the priest, he will know that it was me because no one else at the church has any involvement or knowledge of his personal life/private affairs. Our friendship is already damaged because I judged him for this and confronted him privately about recieving and distributing communion. I haven't seen him for a month now.
I am still examining my motives and intentions as well. I feel like I would like to see the EM duties stopped while he is sleeping with this girl because it disturbs ME a lot. It has caused me to mistrust people who say they are Catholic and question our duty to adhere to Church law, since he is a very good person who does an incredible amount of community service work and as a teacher is very influential with a lot of middle school children and takes a serious mentoring role with the youth. He probably treats the girl very well and conducts the affair in a mature manner. Therefore it seems harmless enough. The only person he has hurt by it is me.
I feel like I'm the sinner here, like I mentioned before I feel like the elder brother in the prodigal son story. I'm guilty of judging him, I've suffered loss of the friendship and serious confusion about the dilemma of "reporting" this situation to the priest. And can't get any real clarity about my intentions or appropriate response to this.
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Fri Sep 21st, 2007 11:37 am |
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| The more you tell about him the more I distrust him. His public life looks like a model of virtue, but his private life is a lie. He is in contact with youth and vulnerable homebound, he administers Holy Communion, and he is a teacher? But he shacks up every night with a girl almost half his age, in his home where his 13 year old daughter lives. Those are the cold facts. Even if you talked with your pastor about it, even if the former friend were to stop seeing the young girl, or administering communion, you know that he is capable of living a dual life. He even led you through a few months of thinking you had a relationship with him. He's a grown man, he had to know what he was doing to you. If you speak to the pastor about it, and the "friend" gets upset, so what? It's up to the pastor whether he wants to take any action. If you don't speak to the pastor, you will always wonder if you did the right thing by remaining silent. It's bothering you to see this go on, maybe your conscience is speaking instead of his. God bless as you make this painful decision. :?
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Darlene
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Posted: Fri Sep 21st, 2007 12:32 pm |
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Credo,
I "ditto" everything you say. Excellent advice. This man is living a scandalous life and bringing shame upon our Lord Jesus. He needs to be confronted regarding his sin. A priest should be made aware of the situation and this man should be relieved of his duties. I think it is a clear cut case, really.
And Rose May, stop beating yourself up. You are not the one at fault here!
Love in Christ,
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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heardclarke
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| Posts: | 197 |
| First Name: | Lisa | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Episcopalian; confirmed RC Easter 2005 |
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Posted: Sat Sep 22nd, 2007 10:03 am |
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I agree with Darlene 100%.
I'd bring it to the attention of the pastor. After that it's his responsibility. I hope the pastor would do something about it (maybe he'd take the guy off the EM schedule and then explain it to him if he asks why.)
Maybe I am overly judgemental, but I think I'd have to find another parish if that wouldn't work; some parishes are so lax these days. EM's are supposed to be more reverent than this and to love the Church, not ignore or contradict her teachings.
At ours I have been pressed into service as an Extraordinary Minister myself (with great reluctance.) As a teacher I am supposed to help out when there aren't "enough ministers." Suffice it to say that I didn't have my hands blessed by the bishop. The religion teacher taught us all the right things, I'm sure, but it doesn't seem to me as if the process ought to be so casual.
However, if things are being done the same laid-back way at your parish, that might explain why your friend doesn't understand where you are coming from.
You're not out of line. Your friend is and he won't listen to you.
Lisa
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Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
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rose may
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| Joined: | Tue Aug 28th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 17 |
| First Name: | rose | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | long circuitous route to Catholicism |
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Posted: Sat Sep 22nd, 2007 10:50 am |
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