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Kings Kid Member
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Posted: Fri Dec 28th, 2007 03:29 am |
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| I know what the Church's view on contraception is. Is it actually a mortal sin to use artaficial contraception? I know a number of people who claim to be Catholic and use it and I was wondering what the consequences are for doing such a thing.
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CajunRick Network Helper

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Posted: Fri Dec 28th, 2007 08:45 am |
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Kings Kid wrote: I know what the Church's view on contraception is. Is it actually a mortal sin to use artaficial contraception? I know a number of people who claim to be Catholic and use it and I was wondering what the consequences are for doing such a thing.
The Church says contraception is a moral evil. Sin, on the other hand, is subjective. We cannot judge the sins of others, only advise them on the wrongness of their act.
In order for a sin to be mortal, it must be a grave evil committed knowingly and willingly. If those conditions are met, it is a mortal sin. However, since we cannot see inside another's heart, we cannot know their true intentions and so we cannot judge their sinfulness.
But for those who are subject to the Church's teachings and fully understand them, they are certainly putting their immortal souls at risk not only by practicing artificial contraception, but also by disobeying the moral authorit of the Church.
____________________ Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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David W. Emery Network Helper
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Posted: Fri Dec 28th, 2007 08:46 am |
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Good morning, Kings Kid. Welcome to the CHNI Forum.
Artificial contraception is considered a grave sin because it is morally unacceptable. This means it can be a mortal sin given the fulfillment of the conditions for a sin to be mortal. Here is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about contraception and mortal sin:
2399 The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).…
1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.…
1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”
1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: “Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.” The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.
1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.
1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.
1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.
Notice well the last sentence. We must not judge others as to whether they are in the state of mortal sin. This is not our office. Rather, it is left to the individual’s conscience and to the tribunal of the confessional, where the priest, acting in the person of Christ, has the power to forgive those who are truly repentant of their sins.
David
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BodRod Member

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Posted: Fri Dec 28th, 2007 11:07 am |
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CajunRick wrote: ....... and fully understand them, .......
That is the hard part for me. I like to know the "whys and wherefores" of the teachings which means, of course, that it takes me longer, to understand something. However, when I do understand something, it then makes sense to me and it is easier to remember it.
____________________ Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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CajunRick Network Helper

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Posted: Fri Dec 28th, 2007 12:03 pm |
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BodRod wrote: CajunRick wrote: ....... and fully understand them, .......
That is the hard part for me. I like to know the "whys and wherefores" of the teachings which means, of course, that it takes me longer, to understand something. However, when I do understand something, it then makes sense to me and it is easier to remember it.
That's certainly true but let me point out that it isn't necessary to understand why the Church teaches something; it is only necessary that we understand that the Church teaches something.
So if I understand that the Church teaches artificial contraception is evil, practicing it is a sin. I don't have to understand why, and I don't have to agree, but I still have to follow the Church's teaching.
____________________ Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

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Posted: Fri Dec 28th, 2007 03:36 pm |
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And I always add, especially if talking to a Protestant, that ALL Christian groups opposed contraception as objectively grave sin until 1930 (when the Anglicans first allowed it "for hard cases only" - how familiar that sounds, huh?), so that it is not "just" a "Catholic thing." We're simply upholding unanimous Christian tradition up to the 20th century.
For those who think the Bible has nothing to say on this matter (or wouldn't know where to look, offhand, to find it), perhaps this paper of mine could be of some use:
The Biblical Evidence Against Contraception
To "fully understand" Church teachings, and to grasp the "whys and wherefores" of a teaching, apologetics is very helpful. It gives us more confidence in a teaching, helps us to live it out and better share it with others if the topic comes up. It's always a good thing to include the mind in our faith, because that gives us a rational faith that we can be confident in, and not be half-ashamed of, if asked to explain why we believe what we believe.
Those who want to inquire further about the rationales behind prohibiting contraception and apologetic explanations, may wish to consult my page
Life Issues: Abortion, Contraception, and Euthanasia
Scroll to the "Contraception" section.
Last edited on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 03:43 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Kings Kid Member
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Posted: Sat Dec 29th, 2007 02:10 pm |
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| Thanks for the info. guys!
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kimdyuma Member

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Posted: Sat Dec 29th, 2007 03:43 pm |
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Funny I was hit with this just today- I belong to a prayer quilt ministry in my old Episcopal church - the Anglicans that split away have also formed their own Pray quilt ministry- I was invited to join but stayed with the original because all the stronger quilters left and I am needed more where I am. Anyhow both groups are aware of my kids' dilemma over the past year- Today one of the women came up and said "just tell me one thing- is your church still against birth control?" I said yes- and went on to say that there are a number of protestant churches also coming to this conclusion in recent times and in fact all churches were against until 1930. I also went on to mention( true) that there are secularists who are also worried about what contraception and abortion are doing to the demographics in the west. She then said well no one needs 7 or 8 kids today. She completely ignored the fact that many Catholic families have no more 3 or 4 kids and wouldn't Liston to my trying to explain NFP. Anyhow if someone can care for 8 or more kids why shouldn't they have if they want them- whose business is it anyhow:?
____________________ Adopt from your local Humane Society- Please spay or neuter your pets
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kimdyuma Member

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Posted: Sat Dec 29th, 2007 06:55 pm |
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| Since we are on the topic of contraception- the few Catholic families that I know well enough to talk of contraception about: one I know attend Mass every week and on days of obligation but told me "that no one really goes to confession anymore except for the mortal sins"- they "followed their conscience in a don't ask don't tell policy" on birth control, the other two families I know had lots of trouble to have 2 and 3 children respectively ( miscarriages etc) so didn't do any birth control. So now that I have confused you all- amongst younger practicing Catholics as opposed to "cultural Catholics" is NFP the general practice? I ask because I have two teens that I hope will eventually marry and live catholic lives
____________________ Adopt from your local Humane Society- Please spay or neuter your pets
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CajunRick Network Helper

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Posted: Sat Dec 29th, 2007 08:24 pm |
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kimdyuma wrote: amongst younger practicing Catholics as opposed to "cultural Catholics" is NFP the general practice?
I don't think we can say with any certainty what people are doing, only what the Church teaches. Opinion polls say that the Church's teaching is widely ignored, but I have no idea whether that is true or not. The Church has certainly never modified a teaching based on opinion polls.
____________________ Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Zosan Member

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Posted: Sun Dec 30th, 2007 01:40 am |
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Greetings from Biloxi,
Check out the One More Soul website for some great information and materials on the subject of contraception. I've been following Professor Janet Smith for some years now. I often share some of her CDs with interested parties.
http://www.omsoul.com/
In Christ We Are One
Norm Cyr
aka Zosan
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

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Posted: Mon Dec 31st, 2007 01:11 pm |
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I have heard that some 70% of Catholics do not live by the prohibition of contraception. God help us. It's very deeply ingrained in western "civilization" today that sexual matters are one's own business and not to be delved into by the Church. It's part and parcel of the post-Enlightenment, post sexual revolution increasing privatization of religion.
The problem is that there is no hiding from God (in the bedroom or anywhere else). He created sexuality and He knows how it best works and what is right and wrong. Contraception is condemned in Holy Scripture itself (way back in Genesis 38; the Onan incident), so obviously God thought it was a very important matter.
Otherwise, why should anyone care that Onan spilled his seed on the ground (and was killed by God for doing so)? It's just biology and a natural function, right? So our society tells us . . .
People have always fought against Christian sexual and familial teachings, and they always will. It's human nature. So it has been an uphill battle at all times, but today it's really difficult because of the mass media, spreading damnable lies to and fro every hour of the day.
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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BodRod Member

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Posted: Mon Dec 31st, 2007 02:56 pm |
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Dave Armstrong wrote: Contraception is condemned in Holy Scripture itself (way back in Genesis 38; the Onan incident), so obviously God thought it was a very important matter.
Otherwise, why should anyone care that Onan spilled his seed on the ground (and was killed by God for doing so)? It's just biology and a natural function, right? So our society tells us . . . I think there may be other reasons why Onan died. For example, if God was directly involved in the handing down the rules and regulations for perpetuating the brother's generation, He might have killed him for not following the regulations and not the act of contraception. OR, maybe he had considerable stress over the situation because of what he and his wife had "discussed" prior to the incident and he died of a heart attack.
If contraception sins are so bad, why has God killed only one person for this in ten thousand, or so, years while killing entire cities for what one might say are lesser sins?
If you want to talk ....."biology and a natural function..." it is not natural for humans to not reproduce and that includes priests and nuns. After all, we are mammals and like dogs, lions and the family cat, reproduction is a natural function. And speaking of that, does the Church also teach that fixing pets is a sin?
____________________ Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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mrsbmoo Member

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Posted: Mon Dec 31st, 2007 03:20 pm |
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After reading this thread and the links to Dave A's site I am confused where I wasn't before. I even stewed a few days to see if it was just a passing thing but it kept me awake for over an hour last night trying to congeal what was bothering me so much.
I am unsettled about 3 things which are somewhat interrelated but not limited to this forum catagory so this may need to be moved.
First, the idea of freedom of conscience. Before I joined the church, I was told clearly in a video that we were shown that by joining the church, we were not giving up our right to say the church was wrong about a matter and not obey. As an example, if the church told us to burn a heretic at the stake or turn over Jews to the government for execution, etc, we would be free to disboey. Our only obligation was to be open to reasonable convincing argument. In the last few weeks in various places in the forum I have seen people state that even if you thought the church was wrong you were bound to obey. I presume this would be dependant on whether is was a major issue or minor issue, meaning that if it wasn't a huge problem you might obey for the moment until you could explore the issue further. Blind obedience regardless of conscience is terrifying to me, as a cultish chuch I was in , the pastor decided when people could move or have kids or buy a car because he was the one to tell us God's will for us. Faith and Morals as a measure is vague and could cover any of these things. Please clear this up.
Secondly, this relating to the thread on contraception, I felt in the linked reading on the debate between an orthodox and Dave A, the orthodox had a pretty good argument that NFP was artificial birth control. If any action on our part thwarts the will of God regarding conception, it is artificial control. As opposed to non-fertile times being a natural control, nothing we do makes them non-conceptive times. Presuming any interference on our part is against the rules of the church, and that conception occurs only if God wills it, that leaves us with the obligation to have sex during fertile times to see if God wills us to concieve because if we do it was God's will. While I can think of many good non-religious, health realated reasons to aviod medically facilitated birth control, I find NFP hard to defend unless I am misunderstanding the idea of thwarting the will of God. Please clarify this too. So this hooks back into point one, how much free will and action are we allowed? Is it our right to decide when we can reasonably have children? If birth control and how many kids we have is a matter of faith and morals, could it next be what books we may read or people we may associate with? Both of these could be argued to be matters of morals. Where does it end?
Thirldy, the concepts of the purpose of sex, are leading me to some disturbing conclusions. I will try to keep this PG-13 but it is difficult given the topic. Ok so the church states that sex has 2 purposes, unitive and procreative, I am going to call these bonding and babymaking as I tend to get lost in the vague nuance meanings of these terms. From the readings in the links(I think they were to DaveA's blog?) these 2 purposes are never supposed to be separated by any action on our part. I find some faults with the logic and some distubing consequences of this, but back to that in a minute.
This is the reasoning for why we are told oral sex is wrong. Now, I have never been able to find this prohibition spelled out in any official church document, not Humnane Vitae, not the Cathechism, just stated as a drawn conclusion by people with no authority. So...my first question is where is this written in the rules? I mean directly in black and white, even if it is in Latin. This hooks back to point number one in that, I disagree with this prohibition rather strongly and up to now have taken it under freedom of conscience. I feel so strongly that this is incorrect that I am willing to stand before God and explain why I did what I did with no guilt. Yet, not wishing to be disobedient without being open to reason, I have read on the subject whenever the opportunity arose. Hence, my not finding any official documentation on the subject. (Of course, it is not lke I can pop it in the Google search box and get anything but porn sites so...) So question number 2 in this section is does the church prohibit this disagreement? I recognize that there is objective truth and in all this somebody is right and somebody is wrong.
Ok, now back to where I am finding fault with the logic that bonding and babymaking cannot be separated for an act to be moral. This sounds like the medieval thinking that for a woman to conceive, she must enjoy sex, thus if a woman is raped and conceives, she must have enjoyed it. Anyway, now it is known to medical science that a woman does not have to enjoy sex to conceive. Her pleasure has absolutley nothing to do with the mechanics of conceiving, thus an act that brings a woman pleasure unless it is coincidentally part of conception, separates bonding from babymaking and thus would be prohibited. First response to this as a woman: Well, I am never having sex again! Why should He get all the pleasure? Then I think: Aha! if he is the only one gaining pleasure then it is not a bonding act and thus prohibited. Then no one gets to have sex. Wait! but this interferes with the will of God. So what are you left with is that you must have sex but no one can enjoy it...well, you see where I am going with this.
Ok, so if you admit that sexualy activity can be bonding or babymaking or both this accounts for sex during non-fertile times, allows woman pleasure and allows for oral sex as an end, if it is not done to the exclusion of intercourse. Oral sex does not have to be a selfish sexual act, it can be bonding depending on the state of mind and intent. The statement in the reading was that any sexual activity that did not end up in potentially babymaking sex was prohibited. So if you don't plan to have sex during the fertile time, don't kiss, hug or touch your wife! Also, why presume God can break into nature to make you pregnant during the non-fertile times but can't override birth control? This seems like an inconsistancy in logic. Whatever happened to the marriage bed being undefiled?
OK, I am curious on other people's takes on, this but particularly DaveA's as it is his writing that I am referring to. Am I the only one struggling with freedom of conscience? Obedience is good but the church is run by imperfect humans, so blind obedience seems dangerous.
____________________ Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 7 months and 16
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

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Posted: Mon Dec 31st, 2007 04:11 pm |
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If contraception sins are so bad, why has God killed only one person for this in ten thousand, or so, years while killing entire cities for what one might say are lesser sins?
Firstly, God generally worked differently at that time with human beings because it was very early in human history. As we have learned more things, He is generally more merciful to us, though we have plenty of crosses societally in the modern age.
Secondly, corporate judgment of cities and nations is a different concept from individual judgment. We could all be judged in one second and killed, and it would be perfectly just for God to do so, because we never fully live up to His standards. But because God is love and because He is so merciful, He doesn't do that.
Thirdly, God killed (i.e., judged) individual people at times to uphold a principle, such as the time the guy died when he was carrying the ark of the covenant, and tried to (innocently) prevent it from falling, or Ananaias in the book of Acts, who lied to the Holy Spirit and was killed by God. The laws of nature seem merciless, too. If you fall off of a mountain, you are likely to be killed. That doesn't make the mountain evil or suspect. It is what it is, and stable natural laws are necessaryv for the world to make sense and to be orderly.
Fourthly, the problem of the contraception advocate (and believer in biblical inspiration, and one who assumes that God is not an arbitrary, capricious, cosmic tyrant) lies in explaining why Onan was killed at all, if contraception is so innocent of any wrongness.
As for OT cases of seeming genocide (a huge subject in and of itself), see my papers:
"How Can God [in the OT] Order the Killing and Massacre of Innocents?" [Amalekites, etc.] (+ Discussion)
Reflections on the Catholic Viewpoint on Original Sin and God's Prerogative to Judge and Take Human Life as He Wills (Even, Sometimes, Entire Nations)
The Judgment of Nations: Biblical Passages and Commentary
If you want to talk ....."biology and a natural function..." it is not natural for humans to not reproduce and that includes priests and nuns.
Priestly celibacy is not a matter of renunciation of the natural per se; it is an embracing of the spiritual higher calling of total consecration to God. The latter is an explicit biblical concept: dealt with at length by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 7. That is not anti-natural in a Manichaean or Gnostic sense because no priest is saying that marriage or sexuality is evil in and of itself. It is heroic renunciation of what is good, for the sake of following God with undivided commitment, as the Apostle Paul explained.
Contraception, on the other hand, involves another human being: the one who might exist but for the selfish and deliberate act to engage in sex without being open to the possibility of what sex was designed by God to produce: a new human being. So there is no ethical equation between the two things at all.
After all, we are mammals and like dogs, lions and the family cat, reproduction is a natural function. And speaking of that, does the Church also teach that fixing pets is a sin?
I don't believe so. Animals do not have souls. That makes them fundamentally different from human beings. They are not made in God's image. That is why killing a deer to eat meat is not an act of murder. Or did you think it was?
Last edited on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 04:12 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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BodRod Member

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Posted: Mon Dec 31st, 2007 04:48 pm |
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| I had not thought about the lack of soul idea but I was aware that Christ ate clean meats and fish. Last edited on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 04:50 pm by BodRod
____________________ Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

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Posted: Mon Dec 31st, 2007 05:33 pm |
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Hi Becky,
After reading this thread and the links to Dave A's site I am confused where I wasn't before. I even stewed a few days to see if it was just a passing thing but it kept me awake for over an hour last night trying to congeal what was bothering me so much.
I'm sorry that you are troubled. That is certainly not my intention as a result of my writing! But perhaps it is good sometimes to mull over things and try to figure them out. I know I am that way and wouldn't want to be any other way, because it prods me on to learn and understand more, when I have nagging doubts, uncertainties, and feelings of ambiguity.
I am unsettled about 3 things which are somewhat interrelated but not limited to this forum catagory so this may need to be moved.
We'll see, but it looks (after skimming it) generally related.
First, the idea of freedom of conscience. Before I joined the church, I was told clearly in a video that we were shown that by joining the church, we were not giving up our right to say the church was wrong about a matter and not obey. As an example, if the church told us to burn a heretic at the stake or turn over Jews to the government for execution, etc, we would be free to disboey. Our only obligation was to be open to reasonable convincing argument. In the last few weeks in various places in the forum I have seen people state that even if you thought the church was wrong you were bound to obey. I presume this would be dependant on whether is was a major issue or minor issue, meaning that if it wasn't a huge problem you might obey for the moment until you could explore the issue further. Blind obedience regardless of conscience is terrifying to me, as a cultish chuch I was in , the pastor decided when people could move or have kids or buy a car because he was the one to tell us God's will for us. Faith and Morals as a measure is vague and could cover any of these things. Please clear this up.
Excellent question, and this is a huge issue. I've written about all these matters on my site. The Catholic is to have a fully-formed conscience, but one that is in line with that of the Church. I would have to see what particular issue you may have in mind, but broadly speaking, Catholics are bound to to accept (not necessarily fully understand) all that the Church teaches infallibly. There are some things that are not infallibly defined. But most things, by now, are infallible or at least binding on Catholics to believe. Limbo, for example, is not binding. You are free to believe in it or not. Private revelations like Fatima and Lourdes are not required beliefs. You can take different views on the free will / predestination question (Thomism or Molinism, and I am the latter).
People differ on political questions such as wars. I think Iraq, for example, was a justified war. The Vatican does not. I am not intending to "dissent"; rather, I recognize that the pope does not have jurisdiction over all political decisions of all countries. He may not, e.g., have the intelligence information that we have. He's not the ruler of nations; he is the Supreme Pontiff of the Church. States are given the right of the sword in Romans 13, and given the duty to promote justice. So Catholics can disagree in good conscience on matters like that. Others disagree with recent popes with regard to the death penalty on roughly similar grounds (I do not).
On the other hand, there are theoreticals where a Catholic could dissent from even a pope. One famous example historically was John XXII (22nd, not 23rd!), who denied the Beatific Vision. He was massively opposed by clergy and laity alike and changed his opinion. If some pope went nuts (literally insane) and commanded Catholics to do an immoral thing (like kill their children or themselves, a la Jim Jones), they would be duty-bound in conscience to disobey (the same applies to a wife who is "commanded" to do something immoral by her husband, exploiting the submission thing). And that is not only because he is not in his right mind (which is reason enough), but also because even a pope is bound to teach only that which is harmonious with past Catholic teaching.
Catholicism does not involve blind faith. It is a reasonable faith. Reasons can be given for the Church's teaching. I've devoted my life to that task and so have many others: catechists and teachers and priests and apologists and theology professors alike.
Secondly, this relating to the thread on contraception, I felt in the linked reading on the debate between an orthodox and Dave A, the orthodox had a pretty good argument that NFP was artificial birth control. If any action on our part thwarts the will of God regarding conception, it is artificial control. As opposed to non-fertile times being a natural control, nothing we do makes them non-conceptive times. Presuming any interference on our part is against the rules of the church, and that conception occurs only if God wills it, that leaves us with the obligation to have sex during fertile times to see if God wills us to concieve because if we do it was God's will. While I can think of many good non-religious, health realated reasons to aviod medically facilitated birth control, I find NFP hard to defend unless I am misunderstanding the idea of thwarting the will of God. Please clarify this too. So this hooks back into point one, how much free will and action are we allowed? Is it our right to decide when we can reasonably have children?
Another excellent question. Pope Paul VI said so in Humanae Vitae. It is reasonable to space and limit children for the appropriate reasons. To use my own example: my wife has had six miscarriages, two seriously problematic pregnancies (we're talking bed rest for months, etc.), very serious post-partum depression, and we've never had much money (apologetics not being a lucrative profession, and she home-schools, so we don't have two incomes). Those are all quite sufficient reasons to limit further children. So we tried not to after two, but lo and behold, God had other plans. He gave us two more, including our first daughter (our fourth of four).
The difference between artificial conception and NFP may be subtle, but it is crucial and essential. I have described it as follows:1. Contraception:
A) Deliberately willing the nonexistence of this possible child that might be conceived as a result of this act of intercourse, and the regarding of such a child as an "accident" rather than part of God's will and providence.
B) This mentality is what led inexorably to legal abortion (not inevitably as an opinion in every individual case - I was always a strong pro-lifer when I contracepted - , but as a general principle of applying the notion of a child being an "accident" or "unwanted").
C) Even in terms of legal case law precedent, legal contraception led to legal abortion.
2. Natural Family Planning:
A) The decision to not conceive a child at a given time, for legitimate, grave reasons, without refusing the possibilities of a child being conceived in a particular conjugal act (the non-willing of a particular child), since that act did not take place.
B) A refusal to separate the pleasure of sex from its deepest purpose, and willingness to always keep them together, or else to abstain in order to maintain the natural pairing and unity of the two aspects.
C) Acceptance of any children conceived as a result of improper practice of NFP as a gift of God (i.e., God knows more than we do about the future and our circumstances).
Again, this is very subtle, but it is a real and important difference. If anyone has difficulty understanding the above distinction, just read it a few times and think about it. Don't feel bad. I read it again myself, because it is very subtle.
For further reading along these lines (for onlookers):
Dialogue on the Ethical Distinction Between Artificial Contraception and Natural Family Planning (NFP)
Dialogue on Contraception and Natural Family Planning (NFP)
The Church does not require Catholics to simply "leave everything to God" or to "let nature take its course." No; God includes human beings in important choices. We are not obliged to have 20 kids. We are obliged to abstain from sexual activity during fertile periods if in fact we have appropriate reasons to limit children. This is a huge difference. What is prohibited is the contralife will and thwarting of natural law. Simple abstention does not do that.
If birth control and how many kids we have is a matter of faith and morals, could it next be what books we may read or people we may associate with? Both of these could be argued to be matters of morals. Where does it end?
That doesn't follow. The conception of life is an extremely serious matter. It is within the Church's purview to protect innocent life and to uphold the dignity of both new life and of the act of marriage. Our society has taken an extremely beautiful thing and made it selfish pleasure. This has in turn led to the denigration of women because they have been made into objects. NFP is beautiful because it creates oneness and understanding in the marriage relationship. Marital chastity is a great virtue to cultivate. I do not own my wife. She is not some sex slave everytime I get in the mood. This is why the theology of the body is such a timely topic today. It's a sorely needed message.
Thirldy, the concepts of the purpose of sex, are leading me to some disturbing conclusions. I will try to keep this PG-13 but it is difficult given the topic. Ok so the church states that sex has 2 purposes, unitive and procreative, I am going to call these bonding and babymaking as I tend to get lost in the vague nuance meanings of these terms. From the readings in the links (I think they were to DaveA's blog?)
Probably so! My response will be PG-13 as well!
these 2 purposes are never supposed to be separated by any action on our part. I find some faults with the logic and some distubing consequences of this, but back to that in a minute.
This is the reasoning for why we are told oral sex is wrong. Now, I have never been able to find this prohibition spelled out in any official church document, not Humnane Vitae, not the Cathechism, just stated as a drawn conclusion by people with no authority. So...my first question is where is this written in the rules?
If it existed on its own with no connection whatsoever to intercourse, as an end in itself (i.e., not a form of foreplay) then it would clearly be condemned by the Church's teaching on moral marital sexuality. It wouldn't have to specifically be mentioned, because it would be a species of the larger set of acts that violate the inherent bond between sexuality and openness to life. It would be essentially the same as mutual masturbation, and masturbation is clearly objectively a mortal sin in Catholic teaching. Homosexual sex would be another example of the same principle. It is wrong because it is 1) unnatural (St. Paul's argument in Romans 1) and 2) intrinsically non-procreative. I would also add that homosexual acts create a host of health problems because they utilize the body in a way that was not designed by God.
I mean directly in black and white, even if it is in Latin.
I'd have to look it up, but once a priest told me that any ejaculation outside of vaginal intercourse is prohibited. Really, though, even if it isn't spelled out, it is already deduced in the prohibitions of masturbation and sodomy.
This hooks back to point number one in that, I disagree with this prohibition rather strongly and up to now have taken it under freedom of conscience. I feel so strongly that this is incorrect that I am willing to stand before God and explain why I did what I did with no guilt. Yet, not wishing to be disobedient without being open to reason, I have read on the subject whenever the opportunity arose. Hence, my not finding any official documentation on the subject. (Of course, it is not lke I can pop it in the Google search box and get anything but porn sites so...) So question number 2 in this section is does the church prohibit this disagreement? I recognize that there is objective truth and in all this somebody is right and somebody is wrong.
I've done my best to explain how the Church views the various sexual acts. I did find someone expressing the exact view that I have given, albeit without "official documentation." It is from the blog Right Reason (I think recvent convert Dr. Francis Beckwith is affiliated with it). Responding to Andrew Sullivan's book, The Conservative Soul, Edward Feser writes:Sullivan offers several more direct objections to the natural law claim that it is immoral to engage in sexual acts while frustrating their procreative function. None of these objections is very impressive, and some of them seem to rest on a poor understanding (or at least poor exposition) of both traditional natural law theory and Catholic teaching.
For example, Sullivan describes a “Catholic married couple who live their lives according to natural law in every respect” as one who “never engage in any sexual act that does not result in the penis depositing semen in a vagina” (p. 84). If what he means by this is that the Catholic Church or natural law theory forbids acts like fellatio and cunnilingus even between married people, he is mistaken. What is forbidden is taking fellatio to the point of orgasm, or taking cunnilingus to orgasm outside the overall context of a completed act of intercourse; it is not necessarily forbidden to indulge in them as foreplay to an act of intercourse that results in ejaculation within the vagina. Perhaps Sullivan realizes this, but if so he should have expressed himself more clearly, since he is bound to give unwary readers the impression that natural law and Catholic teaching are more restrictive than they really are.
He also expresses himself badly when he gives the impression that the Church and natural law theory hold that after pregnancy, a married couple need “to refrain from any sexual activity in those nine months, to avoid activity ‘contrary’ to nature” (ibid.), a teaching whose justification he says is “hard to see” (p. 85). It should be hard to see, since neither the Catholic Church nor natural law theory actually teaches any such thing. Both allow that sex between a husband and his pregnant wife is perfectly legitimate. Again, it may be that Sullivan realizes this, and that what he is really saying is that even though the theory does allow this, it cannot do so consistently with its prohibition on contraception. And again, if so, he should make this clear, because readers unfamiliar with Catholic teaching or natural law theory would definitely get a misleading impression from Sullivan’s text.
http://rightreason.ektopos.com/archives/2006/10/reply_to_sulliv.html
I found another paper that cited Christopher West (the author who writes a lot about theology of the body) arguing exactly the same thing: The acts by which spouses lovingly prepare each other for genital intercourse (foreplay) are honorable and good. But stimulation of each other’s genitals to the point of climax apart from an act of normal intercourse is nothing other than mutual masturbation… An important point of clarification is needed.
Since it’s the male orgasm that’s inherently linked with the possibility of new life, the husband must never intentionally ejaculate outside of his wife’s vagina. Since the female orgasm, however, isn’t necessarily linked to the possibility of conception, so long as it takes place within the overall context of an act of intercourse, it need not, morally speaking, be during actual penetration… Ideally, the wife’s orgasm would happen simultaneously with her husband’s (orgasm), but this is easier said than done for many couples. In fact, if the wife’s orgasm isn’t achieved during the natural course of foreplay and consummation, it would be the loving thing for the husband to stimulate his wife to climax thereafter (if she so desired).
(Good News about Sex and Marriage: Answers to Your Honest Questions About Catholic Teaching, Ann Arbor, MI: Servant Publications, 2000, pp. 90-91)
Also, the Catholic writer Vincent Genovesi states:According to the Church’s traditional teaching, it is neither unnatural, perverted, nor immoral for couples to]seek sexual stimulation and arousal by means of oral (…) intercourse, but such activity should not be continued to the point of orgasm… Sexual climax, however, is to occur only after vaginal penetration…
On another matter of marital sexuality, some wives may need reassurance. Should it happen that she fails to achieve sexual fulfillment in the act of sexual intercourse, a woman is morally permitted, according to the Church’s teaching, to seek and achieve orgasm by other means.
(Vincent Genovesi, In Pursuit of Love: Catholic Morality and Human Sexuality, Collegeville, MN: The Liturgical Press, 1996, 242-43) For the longer paper from which this was drawn, see:
http://www.nds.edu/old/well-Palermo.htm#_ftn5
(Notre Dame Seminary paper by Jason P. Palermo)
The Catechism implies the same in its prohibition of masturbation (#2352) and homosexual acts (#2357). The latter states in part:Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity.
Ok, now back to where I am finding fault with the logic that bonding and babymaking cannot be separated for an act to be moral. This sounds like the medieval thinking that for a woman to conceive, she must enjoy sex, thus if a woman is raped and conceives, she must have enjoyed it.
That's not the point, which is not that intense pleasure has to be present every time a couple have sex. Good grief; any married couple knows that is not the case. The point is the prohibition of deliberate separation of sex from procreation, so thast he latter is rendered naturally impossible or nearly so. It is referring to the immoral deliberate separation of the two functions, not making a positive pronouncement, as in your portrayal of the teaching as some silly "medieval" notion (and the Middle Ages often gets a bum rap too: at least it didn't countenance the wholesale slaughter of preborn children; nor was there such delightful things as Communism and Naziism).
Anyway, now it is known to medical science that a woman does not have to enjoy sex to conceive.
Obviously so. I should think that was also known to any husband who has been married very long and who understoodm that women, too, have orgasms and that they don't always manage to achieve them.
Her pleasure has absolutley nothing to do with the mechanics of conceiving, thus an act that brings a woman pleasure unless it is coincidentally part of conception, separates bonding from babymaking and thus would be prohibited. First response to this as a woman: Well, I am never having sex again! Why should He get all the pleasure? Then I think: Aha! if he is the only one gaining pleasure then it is not a bonding act and thus prohibited. Then no one gets to have sex. Wait! but this interferes with the will of God. So what are you left with is that you must have sex but no one can enjoy it...well, you see where I am going with this.
Yes, and it has nothing to do with what the Church actually teaches. It's a non sequitur. You simply have to learn more about the nature of the teaching. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.
Ok, so if you admit that sexualy activity can be bonding or babymaking or both this accounts for sex during non-fertile times, allows woman pleasure and allows for oral sex as an end, if it is not done to the exclusion of intercourse. Oral sex does not have to be a selfish sexual act, it can be bonding depending on the state of mind and intent. The statement in the reading was that any sexual activity that did not end up in potentially babymaking sex was prohibited.
If orgasm is separated from where it belongs, in proximity to intercourse, yes, it is prohibited, because it is essentially ethically identical to masturbation.
So if you don't plan to have sex during the fertile time, don't kiss, hug or touch your wife!
There is plenty of affection that can be had without it intending to "go all the way", as anyone who has managed to succeed in a chaste premarital relationship knows firsthand.
Also, why presume God can break into nature to make you pregnant during the non-fertile times but can't override birth control? This seems like an inconsistancy in logic. Whatever happened to the marriage bed being undefiled?
God can do whatever He wants. This isn't about God, but about the human contralife will. God gave us a free will to do evil and also to understand why something is evil and to stop doing it (with the necessary aid of His wonderful enabling grace).
OK, I am curious on other people's takes on, this but particularly DaveA's as it is his writing that I am referring to. Am I the only one struggling with freedom of conscience? Obedience is good but the church is run by imperfect humans, so blind obedience seems dangerous.
I've done my best. I hope my remarks have been helpful to you and others and not troubling and vexing. I am only conveying what I understand to be Church teaching. Thanks for the non-controversial subject matter! I'm not simply giving my opinions, but seeking to always represent the Church's teachings. To the extent that I fail to do so, blame me, not the Church!
Last edited on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 05:43 pm by Dave Armstrong
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