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beachmoss
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Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2008 03:36 pm |
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A husband and wife I know were debating forgiveness. They both (Pentecostals) agreed that it was Biblical and God's will to forgive. She thought that she could forgive anyone even if they did not seek forgivness. His interpretation was that the "trespasser" had to acknowledge the wrong deed and seek his forgiveness.
I think the "Lord's Prayer" pretty well states that it doesn't matter if someone seeks our forgiveness. We should do it freely.
And how do you interpret if a wrong has been committed? If they felt violated, but the "violator" feels that he did nothing for which to apologize and seek forgiveness?
Thanks for any input.
Beth
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2008 04:28 pm |
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Ask yourself how God forgives, Beth. What does he require for reconciliation when you have offended him? Repentance, right? No repentance, no forgiveness. Otherwise you would be free to sin with impunity.
The same applies between human beings. If your brother sins against you, and you forgive him without his repentance, you are giving him license to continue sinning and offending. You become a doormat. God doesn’t allow that; neither should you.
Repentance is required. Forgiveness is required when there is repentance. But not without it.
As to the Lord’s Prayer, you are referring to the part that says, “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.” We are asking God’s forgiveness, and the condition of that forgiveness is that we forgive as God forgives. In other words, we first need to repent of our sins so that God can forgive us. And likewise, those who have offended us need to repent so that we can forgive them. As God forgives, so we also forgive, that his forgiveness may be fruitful in us and our forgiveness may be fruitful in others.
David
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beachmoss
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Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2008 04:57 pm |
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Thank you, David. That certainly clarifies it for me.
But what about my second question if the "violator" feels he has done nothing wrong and therefore does not seek forgiveness. If words were spoken that were not intended to hurt the other party, yet they took it as an assault. Was a sin committed?
I know this is confusing. It's hard for me to write it the way I'm thinking it. I hope you can get something from this.
Beth
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2008 06:04 pm |
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beachmoss wrote: I know this is confusing. It's hard for me to write it the way I'm thinking it. I hope you can get something from this.
I think forgiveness goes two ways. A woman close to me was raped. She forgave her attacker almost immediately. Because of her attitude of forgiveness, she released the hurt and pain. She felt sorry for him, and the things that might have occurred in his life that drove him to that point. (He was trying to commit a robbery at a business but there was no money there, so he figured he'd take it out on her.)
A few weeks later, the police cornered him in a motel in Gulfport, and he killed himself. Since she had forgiven him, her attitude was one of compassion. A poinsettia was donated in his memory at our church that year.
When we forgive, we release. A person we have not forgiven has a hold on us forever. Only through forgiveness can we have freedom from what they have done to us. And that applies even if they have not asked for forgiveness.
But that doesn't mean that we care to have anything to do with them, or choose to associate with them, or will ever trust them again. Reopening the lines of communication does indeed require an effort on their part as well as our own. And even after forgiveness is granted, trust must be earned again. Jesus told us to forgive as we wish to be forgiven, and he advised us to turn the other cheek, but he did not say we had to stand and allow ourselves to be beaten to a pulp.
So yes, I believe we need to forgive (that is, release) those who have sinned against us even if they haven't asked for it. Otherwise they will control our lives like a wound that goes untreated and festers, with the infection spreading through our souls.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2008 07:15 pm |
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The Catholic always keeps in mind the sacramental forgiveness in confession, that requires remorse (contrition) or else it is null and void from the outset. There is also a biblical sense of transactional forgiveness: a person repents, (preferably) does restitution of some sort, and is forgiven. God Himself won’t forgive us and grant us salvation if it isn’t preceded by our repentance, as David already noted. He doesn‘t simply declare us saved without our consent, including repentance. But He is always willing to forgive. His love and blessings towards us never end unless we reject Him.
It is very important, however, to note that there is such a thing “willingness to forgive” or “a forgiving spirit / heart,” or mercy, etc. This gets back to "Sermon on the Mount spirituality." What is in our heart will set the stage for how we act and react in real life situations. We have to be willing to forgive and to not become bitter, and to exercise a profound love and charity towards other people. Then when the opportunity comes to forgive someone who comes to us and repents of a sin done towards us (the full, Catholic sense of forgiveness described above), we are already prepared, as opposed to showing vengefulness and lack of charity and mercy.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2008 08:09 pm |
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beachmoss wrote:But what about my second question if the "violator" feels he has done nothing wrong and therefore does not seek forgiveness. If words were spoken that were not intended to hurt the other party, yet they took it as an assault. Was a sin committed?
CajunRick wrote:When we forgive, we release.
I think Rick has the right idea. However, I would prefer to separate “forgiveness” from “release.” To me they are really two different acts. I think this is what Dave A. is saying in his post as well.
When I forgive someone, I reconcile with him mutually. When I release someone, I am doing so unilaterally. A unilateral “forgiveness” or release is good, even necessary at times for us to get on with our lives. But while it can bring needed healing to the person offended, it cannot bring forgiveness to the unrepentant offender.
Now to your specific question, Beth: What you are proposing here seems to be a situation of one of two kinds. Either the offender is guilty because he is not sorry for his very real offense, or he is innocent because the one offended has taken offense where no offense was given or intended. The latter possibility could in addition mean that the one offended is guilty of taking offense at what is no offense.
I had something like this happen to me recently. Someone I know had a stated purpose and goal, but failed to meet that goal because of a weak-willed personal choice that derailed the effort. The consequences of this move could be disastrous in this person’s life down the line.
I observed what had happened and expressed hope that this failure would not have its usual consequences, or at least that the person could rectify the problem before it got completely out of hand. But the person took offense at this, stating effectively that I had no business probing into other people’s private affairs.
I offered a full explanation of my benign, even loving intention, including again an expression of my deep concern for the consequences which will probably be felt in due time. But the person apparently is having none of it and will not be reconciled. Did I commit an offense? Or was the person wrongly taking offense?
I think you can see, then, that your second question is more complex than the first, but the same basic conditions apply. Offense taken, even when not given, is in itself an offense. Forgiveness offered, even if not accepted, is release. If accepted, it is reconciliation.
David
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Intercessor
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Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2008 02:03 am |
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How does the Lord's "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do"
fit into this discussion? The mockers and the executioners?
Also, in close relationships, particularly marriage, true peace seems to be restored only when somebody has apologized. Sometimes the person having enough grace to apologize (or to apologize first) or to make a move toward restoring peace is not the person who has offended. Just interested in your observations about how sometimes grace is released for both parties when one party humbles herself enough to apologize (even if the other person should have).
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"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2008 02:53 am |
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Intercessor wrote:How does the Lord's "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do" fit into this discussion? The mockers and the executioners?
When one does not understand or recognize that what he is doing is sinful, it is not imputed, or the guilt is at least lessened according to the genuineness and extent of the ignorance.
Also, in close relationships, particularly marriage, true peace seems to be restored only when somebody has apologized. Sometimes the person having enough grace to apologize (or to apologize first) or to make a move toward restoring peace is not the person who has offended.
This situation was addressed by Dave Armstrong above, where he spoke of a “willingness to forgive” (or more correctly here, to reconcile), and my own previous post, where I spoke of “offense taken, even when not given.” Oftentimes, apologizing for an offense which was perceived, even if not actually committed, is a tactful way to restore the peace. It is an expedient allowing the other person to be “right” even though wrong; it involves a certain meekness on the part of the person actually wronged.
Compare Ephesians 4:1–3: “I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.”
Again, from the standpoint of the Beatitudes (Matthew 5:9): “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.”
And finally, from the standpoint of Christ in his passion: “Now Jesus stood before the governor; and the governor asked him, ‘Are you the King of the Jews?’ Jesus said, ‘You have said so.’ But when he was accused by the chief priests and elders, he made no answer. Then Pilate said to him, ‘Do you not hear how many things they testify against you?’ But he gave him no answer, not even to a single charge; so that the governor wondered greatly” (Matthew 27:11–14). And as you mentioned, his words from the cross. This is how Christ effectively accepted the blame for our sins in order to free us from them and reconcile us to the Father.
David
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Intercessor
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Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2008 03:13 am |
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Thanks, David. I agree with the points you and Dave A. were making.
Years ago it was difficult for me to apologize when I was in the wrong.
Increasingly, I have felt led to draw more on forbearance so that I myself avoid taking offense too easily or too soon and to work harder toward humility --specifically being the one who in meekness and charity apologizes.
A recent experience with a relative involved my apologizing twice. I saw the grace that was released from my willingness to do that. God seemed to honor my meekness.
(Just want to say, though, that I do think some women have to be careful not to become victims. I'm not speaking, above, about that sort of thing.)
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"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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brian
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Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2008 03:35 am |
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I think I understand the distinction that is being made, but I think that from the offended person's point of view it is the right thing to offer the forgiveness even if only internally depsite how it will be received. I basically agree with what Rick said (not that anyone disagreed). I think of St Maria Gorreti who forgave the person who attempted to rape her and stabbed her as she was in the hospital dying. Most articles do not say that she "releasrd" or "offerred forgiveness" even thoguh accoring to what David is saying this is more technically corrct. But they say she forgave, even without his repentance, which would later come as he was in prison and she visited him in a dream. He eventually asked forgiveness from and went on to live close to her mother and was there I believe when she was canonized as one of the youngest saints of the church (I think she died at 13).
To me, reconciliation is what happens when forgiveness is offered and accepted, but I think that from our part we should never withhold the forgiveness or whatever you want to call our part of the potential forgivenss. If someone steals from us we offer more. Of course true love can be harsh at times, but the principle I think is to always forgive even if only personally.
I think it is probably never good to seek vengeance hold on to bitterness or fail to seek reconciation. We may not like the person or want to see thme again, but I do not think staying angry forever is the answer.
Is there a case where it is someow better to not have offered forgiveness until the person asks? If one is offended by a family member and they do not ask forgiveness would it ver be ok to simply stay angry and hope they ask forgiveness before actualluy"releasing them" in your heart? I do not think so.
Brian
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setapart
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Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2008 03:54 am |
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Below is the link to the CCC that relates to this.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p4s2a3.htm#V
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But for you who fear my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture. Mal 4:2
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2008 11:57 am |
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brian wrote:I think of St Maria Goretti who forgave the person who attempted to rape her and stabbed her as she was in the hospital dying. Most articles do not say that she "released" or "offered forgiveness" even though according to what David is saying this is more technically correct. But they say she forgave, even without his repentance, which would later come as he was in prison and she visited him in a dream.
I was just picking up on Rick’s words and not trying to establish a “correct terminology.” Yes, in common parlance we do have a tendency to refer to both circumstances as “forgiveness.” It is for this reason that I needed to make the distinction, regardless of the words one might use, so that we could understand the dynamics.
The story of Maria Goretti and her attacker is a classic example of the grace of God at work. Yes, she forgave him; she did her part. But he did not accept either her forgiveness or God’s at that time because he was not repentant. In fact, he passed many years in prison in denial of his guilt and complete rejection of forgiveness. However, there came that night when he dreamed that Maria came to him and again personally offered him forgiveness. From that time, he changed; he repented and was truly forgiven. At this point there was reconciliation both with Maria and with God.
Matthew 18:32–35: “Then his lord summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me; and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”
The forgiveness or “release” was fulfilled by Maria Goretti before she died. The repentance and “reconciliation” were fulfilled only years later by her attacker.
I think that from the offended person's point of view it is the right thing to offer the forgiveness even if only internally depsite how it will be received.…
To me, reconciliation is what happens when forgiveness is offered and accepted, but I think that from our part we should never withhold the forgiveness or whatever you want to call our part of the potential forgiveness.
I think we are all agreed that this is good and necessary, although it cannot be construed (as it sometimes is) as a “permission” to offend. My point was that forgiveness remains unilateral until the offender repents. I may offer my forgiveness, but it has to be received and properly responded to before reconciliation can take place.
Is there a case where it is somehow better to not have offered forgiveness until the person asks? If one is offended by a family member and they do not ask forgiveness would it ver be ok to simply stay angry and hope they ask forgiveness before actually "releasing them" in your heart? I do not think so.
Correct. This is what Dave A. cites as “willingness to forgive.” Withholding forgiveness, as you saw from the passage from the Matthew’s Gospel above, is always condemned; we must always be willing to forgive, even if the offender does not repent, just as God eternally stands ready to forgive as soon as we repent.
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2008 12:26 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote: I was just picking up on Rick’s words and not trying to establish a “correct terminology.” Yes, in common parlance we do have a tendency to refer to both circumstances as “forgiveness.” It is for this reason that I needed to make the distinction, regardless of the words one might use, so that we could understand the dynamics.
And I completely agree. If there is any disagreement here, it is over the use of the word "forgive". We are using it in a slightly different manner, and yet both are correct usages.
David is using "forgive" to refer to an action that is sought and received. I was using it more as a grace that is freely given. One is the response to repentence, the other the unsolicited act of the offended.
God forgives us freely, but our response is necessary in that we must seek that forgiveness and respond to it. It doesn't change God's loving act, but it affects the change in us and the way we receive that forgiveness.
In the same way, when John Paul II forgave the man who tried to kill him, it was a unilateral act that the assailant eventually came to accept but at the time it was offered, it was completely one-sided.
So I am compelled to seek forgiveness from those I have sinned against, but offer forgiveness unilaterally to those who have offended me. Both are necessary components of the gospel message. "Both/and", not "either/or".
And the words we use to describe it doesn't change the gospel.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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setapart
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Posted: Fri Feb 8th, 2008 12:57 am |
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Rick - that was an insightful answer. Blessed are the peacemakers.....
Bill
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But for you who fear my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture. Mal 4:2
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