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BettyBoopToo
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Camas/Washougal, Washington USA |
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| First Name: | Betty | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Fist Baptist/Calvary Babtist/Secular Confusion/ Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Sep 1st, 2007 06:59 pm |
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rose may wrote: I've read through many OSAS debates on Protestant message boards and there's so many views on this as well as the faith vs. works debate that I gave up trying to decide for myself. I really trust the Catholic Church's position on this
The evangelical church and others I got involved in wer always worried about everyone else's security instead of their own. It seemed arrogant to me. I like the section in the Catechism on "the sin of presumption", though I's too lazy to look it up right now. I think, if nothing else, that it keeps one's conscience sharp and gives a major incentive to pursue holiness. I kinda like having the whip at my back, so to speak, and not falling into spiritual apathy.
Rose May, I too have followed many of the threads on the topics you stated. when reading on the outside of the conversation, they both end up saying the exact same thing, just using other words. The strangest thing is when they are involved in the debate, that neither participant can see it.
I too like the teaching in the catholic church. It helps me to stay focused on my own imperfections and not looking at others downfalls or hardships.
the Protestant prayer of salvation has reduced our Lords sacramental life saving graces to a single human action. For me, it's like saying, Gods way's are not good enough for us or his process is too slow, we want salvation right now, so we've changed the methold of salvation to what we humans want. It makes me very insecure when I think back on it.
I like that part of the catechism too!
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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dogsectorgreen
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| Joined: | Thu Sep 6th, 2007 |
| Location: | Huntington Beach, California USA |
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| First Name: | Keith | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical convert to Catholicism |
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Posted: Fri Sep 7th, 2007 10:48 pm |
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pam wrote: I'd be interested in hearing from both cradle Catholics and converts--do you truly worry about your salvation?
I worried about my salvation daily even when I was a Protestant Evangelical. Unfortunately that has followed into the Catholic Faith to some degree. However I feel more confident in my salvation that I ever did as an Evangelical. I don't think that one day went by that I did not think that I was going to hell. That maybe part of my upbringing too. In fact when I stopped going to a hard core fundamentalist church and just started to go to a contemporary Evangelical church I thought that I was damned for sure.
I think that feeling of not being saved is very subjective and I don't think it matters if you are Catholic or Calvinist. I think that nobody what anyone says that nobody ever has 100 percent assurance. In fact due a Calvinist has no way of knowing if he or she is saved.
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Hate the sin but love the sinner-Augustine
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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 600 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Fri Sep 7th, 2007 11:54 pm |
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HI Keith,
Would you mind repeating that???
Jill
____________________
"The alternative to obedience is to turn the conversation into a cacophony of Christians making it up as they go along." - Fr. Richard John Neuhaus
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sat Sep 8th, 2007 12:00 am |
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JillD wrote:
HI Keith,
Would you mind repeating that???
Jill
That’s what I’m here for, Jill. Punch a few buttons, no more echo chamber.
David
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Credo Catholic
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| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Sep 8th, 2007 12:39 am |
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| My big problem now is "presumption of salvation." After so many years of being sure I was saved, knowing I knew the Lord and loved Him, was baptised, and told He wouldn't go back on His promise. Now that is a hard thing to undo. I still forgive myself very easily for things, and convince myself that it wasn't intentional or mortal. It's an old habit that doesn't want to die.
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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 600 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Sat Sep 8th, 2007 01:21 am |
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David W. Emery wrote:
That’s what I’m here for, Jill. Punch a few buttons, no more echo chamber.
David
I know. I was just playin'....
How does that happen? Push the Send button too many times??
____________________
"The alternative to obedience is to turn the conversation into a cacophony of Christians making it up as they go along." - Fr. Richard John Neuhaus
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sat Sep 8th, 2007 08:52 am |
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JillD wrote:
How does that happen? Push the Send button too many times??
Usually. The program takes a while to register posts, and people think something may have gone wrong, so they hit the Send button again. You just have to wait it out.
On occasion, I’ve even had the program tell me my post didn’t go through, but then I cancel and see that it did register, but timed out in the process. The best policy, of course, is to maintain a backup of your post until you see that it has registered.
This is a strong argument for composing everything in your word processor, saving it (that’s your backup), then clipboarding (copy and paste) the text into the composition box. By following the directions in the Help section (button in the upper right of your screen), you can learn to enter all the codes to format your post the way you want. It also avoids those entanglements with the WYSIWYG text entry (the default with Internet Explorer and Firefox browsers) which so often produces overrunning quotations, broken encoding, font problems and suchlike and leads so many people to prefer oversimplified workarounds.
David
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JillD
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Sat Sep 8th, 2007 07:44 pm |
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I was with ya 'til here....
David W. Emery wrote:
By following the directions in the Help section (button in the upper right of your screen), you can learn to enter all the codes to format your post the way you want. It also avoids those entanglements with the WYSIWYG text entry (the default with Internet Explorer and Firefox browsers) which so often produces overrunning quotations, broken encoding, font problems and suchlike and leads so many people to prefer oversimplified workarounds.
David
Oh, well, I'm happy with the way it works for me and I do "copy" my post usually in case it gets lost in the process. I'm glad I don't seem to have any of ^^^ those problems!
Jill
____________________
"The alternative to obedience is to turn the conversation into a cacophony of Christians making it up as they go along." - Fr. Richard John Neuhaus
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setapart
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| Joined: | Sat Jan 13th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Bill | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Born Catholic, Non-Denominational Charismatic, Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 09:03 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: vee12 wrote: Like someone else pointed out I think cradle Catholics dont really think about "being saved" but if they would go to heaven or hell. Im a cradle Catholic and the only time I heard the words "being saved" or the concept it was from a Protestant point of view.
I never heard of "being saved" either, but I heard of salvation all the time. I also never heard "justification" or "being justified" but I heard redemption and being redeemed all the time.
One way that I like to look at "being saved" is that without the initial grace of God's mercy and justification none of us would have a chance at heaven on our own merits or attempts at obeying the law. So by recieving by faith what God has done for us in Baptism we become partakers of that grace in which we stand.
1 Symeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of equal value to ours through the righteousness of our God and savior Jesus Christ: 2 may grace and peace be yours in abundance through knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. 3 His divine power has bestowed on us everything that makes for life and devotion, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and power. 4 Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature, after escaping from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, virtue with knowledge, 6 knowledge with self-control, self-control with endurance, endurance with devotion, 7 devotion with mutual affection, mutual affection with love. 8 If these are yours and increase in abundance, they will keep you from being idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 Anyone who lacks them is blind and shortsighted, forgetful of the cleansing of his past sins. 10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more eager to make your call and election firm, for, in doing so, you will never stumble. 11 For, in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ will be richly provided for you. 2 Peter 1:1-11 (NAB)
I think these verses sum up the way of salvation.
God bless you Rick and vee12.
Bill
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But for you who fear my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture. Mal 4:2
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Michael Ewing
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| Joined: | Mon Dec 24th, 2007 |
| Location: | Iowa USA |
| Posts: | 58 |
| First Name: | Mike | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic, spiritually left the Church during late teens, dabbled ... |
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Posted: Thu Jan 24th, 2008 01:42 am |
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catholicdan wrote:
The Protestant understanding of Salvation is a one time act that never has to be done again. Once you are saved then your are saved and cannot turn away from God due to what is called "Irresistable grace". Everything else is really a matter of just making an outward statement of the inward work.
Hi all,
Just got on this topic, it's probably already been asked, but how doesn't "irresistable grace" contradict free will?
Mike
____________________
"Jesus said to him : I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" - John 14:6
"Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up" - Gal 6:9
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Michael Ewing
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Posted: Thu Jan 24th, 2008 01:47 am |
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BettyBoopToo wrote: As my dear father says; "The song, I did it my Way, Is the theme song for Hell" I believe he's right.
Whoa, that really hits home for some reason. There is alot of wisdom there.
Mike
____________________
"Jesus said to him : I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" - John 14:6
"Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up" - Gal 6:9
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MichaelStEdmund
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| Joined: | Fri Dec 28th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Michael | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Convert from pentacostal/charismatic/holiness background |
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Posted: Thu Jan 24th, 2008 04:39 pm |
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In my upbringing, OSAS and TULIP were alien ways of thinking. I feel a little foolish about it now, but one of my first questions to the parish deacon was whether the Church took a Calvinist or Arminian stance of salvation, predestination, etc. Of course, he seemed lost by my whole line of questioning, but I was speaking the only theological "language" I knew at the time. As a faithful disciple of John Wesley, the concept of free will was pretty appealing to me. I definitely wanted to know what "shift" I was going to have to make allowances for.
As far as how I feel/felt about my salvation ... as a non-Catholic I didn't worry about it. It was a done deal, and I had the freedom to move on to other areas of spiritual growth, etc. without worrying about anything. In my group, we didn't even think of ourselves as sinners at all. That would have been spitting in God's eye after everything He'd done for us. We were "the righteousness of God in Christ," as Scripture said, not sinners.
Today I realize that the stakes are higher and the battle deadlier than I ever let myself believe. It's a constant struggle, because I have a more well defined concept of sin than I did before. It's just plain easier to get in trouble! Back then, if I followed the Ten Commandments and didn't dance, drink, smoke or curse, I was OK. I'm more sensitive to my own shortcomings now, and instead of seeing myself as Super Christian I tend to relate more to Marley's ghost.
____________________
"Faith seeking understanding" - St. Anselm of Canterbury.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Jan 24th, 2008 06:45 pm |
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MichaelStEdmund wrote:One of my first questions to the parish deacon was whether the Church took a Calvinist or Arminian stance of salvation, predestination, etc.
The irony here, Michael, is that Arminianism was developed by a Dutch Calvinist, Jakob Hermanzoon (“Iacobus Arminius” in Latin), around the end of the 16th century. (See this link.) Having myself been raised in a Wesleyan environment, I am aware that John Wesley was greatly influenced by both the Moravians (Anabaptists) and the Arminian Calvinists. This, plus his own Anglican tradition, led him to embrace free will wholeheartedly. So like you, I never even looked in Calvin’s direction when I was considering, some 50 years ago, where I needed to be to respond properly to God’s call. If sin existed, it was my fault, not God’s.
In my group, we didn't even think of ourselves as sinners at all.
Yet we sin daily, don’t we? I know I did (and do).
I'm more sensitive to my own shortcomings now, and instead of seeing myself as Super Christian I tend to relate more to Morley's ghost.
This is the true awakening of the Spirit. He opens our eyes to the truth if we are honest and true to him. Only then can we be humble enough to be truly righteous in his sight.
A marvellous description, Michael, of the growth of wisdom in the Christian.
David
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MichaelStEdmund
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Posted: Fri Jan 25th, 2008 02:28 am |
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David W. Emery wrote: MichaelStEdmund wrote:One of my first questions to the parish deacon was whether the Church took a Calvinist or Arminian stance of salvation, predestination, etc.
The irony here, Michael, is that Arminianism was developed by a Dutch Calvinist, Jakob Hermanzoon (“Iacobus Arminius” in Latin), around the end of the 16th century. (See this link.) Having myself been raised in a Wesleyan environment, I am aware that John Wesley was greatly influenced by both the Moravians (Anabaptists) and the Arminian Calvinists. This, plus his own Anglican tradition, led him to embrace free will wholeheartedly. So like you, I never even looked in Calvin’s direction when I was considering, some 50 years ago, where I needed to be to respond properly to God’s call. If sin existed, it was my fault, not God’s.
In my group, we didn't even think of ourselves as sinners at all.
Yet we sin daily, don’t we? I know I did (and do).
I'm more sensitive to my own shortcomings now, and instead of seeing myself as Super Christian I tend to relate more to Morley's ghost.
This is the true awakening of the Spirit. He opens our eyes to the truth if we are honest and true to him. Only then can we be humble enough to be truly righteous in his sight.
A marvellous description, Michael, of the growth of wisdom in the Christian.
David
Thanks for the encouragement, David.
As for "sinning daily," I know my Dad would say absolutely not. He always stressed to me as I was growing up that a real Christian was not a sinner because he or she didn't sin "habitually." From that point of view, if you aren't consistently living "above sin" in a state of holiness, then you aren't a Christian at all. After all, without holiness no one can see God, right? (Hebrews 12:14) St. John also tells us that one who is born of God doesn't sin. (I John 3:9). I also saw, in general, that the New Testament didn't refer to Christians as "sinners" in any context that I could see.
With one exception.
I found myself thinking of St. Paul's claim to be the "chief of sinners." (I Timothy 1:15) Also, his haunting description of struggling with sin (Romans 7) seemed so real that eventually I came to the conclusion that those struggles were fresh for the apostle. I had to decide at some point that either St. Paul knew exactly what he was talking about, or he was suffering under some sort of "low self image" that kept him from embracing all of the blessings that God had for him. At that time, the first option was unthinkable and the second option was ridiculous. That was a bit of a mess to try to navigate through.
Over the past four years that I've been in the Church, I've found my favorite parts of the Mass to be the Confiteor, the Kyrie, and the Sanctus. They serve to remind me of my own howling need and God's overwhelming holiness and loving provision through the blood of Christ.
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"Faith seeking understanding" - St. Anselm of Canterbury.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri Jan 25th, 2008 03:16 am |
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MichaelStEdmund wrote:From that point of view, if you aren't consistently living "above sin" in a state of holiness, then you aren't a Christian at all. After all, without holiness no one can see God, right? (Hebrews 12:14) St. John also tells us that one who is born of God doesn't sin. (I John 3:9). I also saw, in general, that the New Testament didn't refer to Christians as "sinners" in any context that I could see.
Oh, yes, I’m well aware of this popular Protestant point of view. But it merely shows that the person hasn’t read and undestood the Old Testament, so as to be able to approach the New Testament with some background both in human nature and in God’s way of dealing with us.
I just finished writing something on Moses and his difficulties with the Israelites. Not everything was the Israelites’ fault; we know this, because of the reason given in scripture for God not allowing Moses, the leader of the People of God, to enter the Promised Land while living on earth. The bible insists that it was something he said (a “bitter spirit” and a “rash statement,” says Psalm 106:32–33, alluding to the incident). And in Jude 9 we see the devil attempting to claim Moses’ body, indicating that there was some cause. Yet Hebrews 3:5 says that “Moses was faithful in all God’s house.” If scripture is to be believed, we cannot reject either the one or the other. He is both a sinner and holy.
Likewise King David, whose name I bear from birth, was by no means sinless. Like Moses, he committed murder and did some other horrible things, for which he also repented. Yet he is considered Israel’s great hero and model king and a saint in heaven.
It is not the way of man to be perfect. We can agree with your father that a good Christian man does not sin habitually. But we must also admit that no man can avoid altogether at least venial sin. As against 1 John 3:9, we must also admit the truth of 1 John 1:10. Same author, same work; how did your father reconcile them? Do we not, as Christians, all say that Christ came to save sinners? And who might those sinners be if not we ourselves?
Like St. Paul, I struggle with sin in my own life. And like you, I have had to admit that St. Paul was telling the truth about the human — and Christian — condition. And this is the reason we have the penitential season of Lent, which is about to begin. In this way we, as Catholic Christians, acknowledge both our sin and the redemption God has so generously supplied. All he asks for is repentance and a firm purpose of amendment. He does the rest.
Blessed be God.
David
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Candlemass
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Posted: Fri Jan 25th, 2008 03:26 am |
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| "Let us lay aside the weight and the sin that easily entangles." Some have called this "besetting sins", it seems a christian can have habitual sin in their lives, if they can live w/out remorse or repentence, that would be the issue, would it not?
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"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri Jan 25th, 2008 03:39 am |
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Candlemass wrote:It seems a christian can have habitual sin in their lives, if they can live w/out remorse or repentence, that would be the issue, would it not?
Yes, Mark, it would. We are speaking here not of habitual sin and lack of repentance (which is the way of the reprobate), but of human weakness and divine forgiveness (the way of the saved). This is what Christianity is all about. It is why we do not despair. God is faithful, even when we are not.
As I said above, all he requires is repentance and a firm purpose of amendment. God does the rest. This message he gives you, Mark. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness cannot win out. God invites us to try again.
David
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setapart
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Posted: Fri Jan 25th, 2008 04:06 am |
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1458 Without being strictly necessary, confession of everyday faults (venial sins) is nevertheless strongly recommended by the Church.59 Indeed the regular confession of our venial sins helps us form our conscience, fight against evil tendencies, let ourselves be healed by Christ and progress in the life of the Spirit. By receiving more frequently through this sacrament the gift of the Father's mercy, we are spurred to be merciful as he is merciful:60
Whoever confesses his sins . . . is already working with God. God indicts your sins; if you also indict them, you are joined with God. Man and sinner are, so to speak, two realities: when you hear "man" - this is what God has made; when you hear "sinner" - this is what man himself has made. Destroy what you have made, so that God may save what he has made. . . . When you begin to abhor what you have made, it is then that your good works are beginning, since you are accusing yourself of your evil works. The beginning of good works is the confession of evil works. You do the truth and come to the light.61.....CCC
____________________
But for you who fear my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture. Mal 4:2
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True Image
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 02:44 pm |
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pam wrote: I'd be interested in hearing from both cradle Catholics and converts--do you truly worry about your salvation?
I'm a cradle Catholic who never left the Church. I never heard of being saved until I was in college and attended Christian music concerts, including the Creation concerts in PA.
I never understood why Catholics were not considered saved. I knew that by my Baptism, original sin had been washed away. Through the sacrament of Confession, my sins were forgiven and my soul was made clean. Through the Eucharist, I receive Jesus in me to strengthen me.
I didn't think of it as salvation, but rather as making it into heaven, purgatory or hell.
As an adult, I do think of it occasionally as salvation, but I think that term has crept into my mind because I have good friends who are Protestants.
I don't worry about it as long as I receive the sacraments frequently and live in accord with the teachings of the Catholic church. I also pray the Divine Mercy chaplet and trust in God's great mercy and love. Knowing that God loves me so much that He came down to earth and died for me and wants me to be happy with him in Paradise gives me great peace.
However, if I left the Church and rejected God, I would fear for my salvation.
Anne
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Didi
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 07:39 pm |
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I read this in Catholic apologetics somewhere and wrote the verse references in my bible. It has really helped my understanding of being "saved."
I am saved. "But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he saved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God -- not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Eph. 2:4-10)
I'm being saved. "For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing." (2 Cor. 2:15) "For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (1 Cor. 1:18)
And hope I'll be saved. "Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble -- each man's work will be manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survived, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." (1 Cor. 3: 12-15) "Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life." (Rom. 5:9-10)
I'm working out my salvation in fear. "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Phil. 2:12-13)
With hopeful confidence in Christ. "Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God." (Rom. 5:2) "If we have died with him, we shall also live with him; if we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he will also deny us; if we are faithless, he remains faithful -- for he cannot deny himself." (2 Tim. 2:11-13)
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