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mea_maxima_culpa
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| Joined: | Sat Nov 18th, 2006 |
| Location: | Concord, New Hampshire USA |
| Posts: | 16 |
| First Name: | Peter | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | U.C.C./Congregational, American Baptist, & now home in Rome! |
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 12:17 am |
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Hi all,
This has probably been covered several times, but it is new to me. In the recent presidential debates pro life/pro choice issues are coming up. One of them is asked to pro-life candidates is what would/could/should be done if Roe v.wade is overturned. In other words, what should be done to a woman who has an abortion if abortion is recriminalized.
I have always approached the problem as a demand side of the equation, and not the supply side, so I am at a loss for appropriate verbiage to this point.
This seems to be a favorite foil of pro-choice folks. Although the church, I don't believe has a position on this, I would like to hear more from those in the pro-life movement as to a response to this, so when I am asked, I have a reply.
IMHO, the church teaches the sanctity of life from conception to natural death. Therefore, the argument of having or performing an abortion becoming a capital crime is a straw man argument.
However, if you accept that a person "IS" a person from conception, there would have to be some sort of justice served for terminating the life of that person. Would this fall under the category of manslaughter?
How was this handled prior to Roe v. Wade?
Any comments greatly appreciated.
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DrDave
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Mildura, Australia |
| Posts: | 217 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle - Lapsed - Renewed Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 01:08 am |
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I think that this issue is much like the issue of how to treat the "war on drugs". Do we just go after the "big fish" or do we go to the other extreme and have the death sentence for possesion of one joint (marijana ciggarette).
The unfortunate truth is that concentrating on only the "big fish" doesn't work. Not on drugs, and I would suspect, not on abortions. I would suspect that this is especially true while these activities are at least tacitly approved of by a significant proportion of the community.
So that said, I would suggest that once the law reconises the humanity of the unborn, the same laws that apply to all of us would apply to them, and their killers. The law recognises that different people are subject to different levels of culpability for the same act.
There was a case within the last few years over here where a young girl (17ish), living at home, attending school, became pregnant, carried to term, gave birth, beat to death, hid the body in the bin, and went about her normal life. All without parents, friends, teacher noticeing a thing. It is my recollection that she was still denying that she had ever been pregnant when the matter eventually went to court. The court in it's wisdom (?) gave her a non-custodial sentence which included therapy. The courts have the latitude to be compassionate in such cases, but I can't help thinking that if the same act had been performed by the boyfriend he'd still have several years to serve
Regards Doc
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BodRod
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 771 |
| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 01:10 am |
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Yes, I have a comment but it is a little off the track. However, I'll say it anyway. I get really angry everytime I hear of a fellow being charged with two crimes if a pregnant women is killed but then when someone wants to get an abortion; no problem! In my opinion, that little person is a person in both situations and the crimes should be treated the same. Killing is killing. :X
I know ...... I am preaching to the choir.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5080 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 03:15 am |
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Strictly my opinion.....
I don't want to minimize the evil that is abortion, but many women who have them are extremely distraught, emotionally unstable, often quite young, sometimes facing severe financial difficulties, at risk of losing husbands and family, etc. I think we need to treat them with compassion and offer them support and forgiveness, much as we do when a woman is forced to kill an attacker or an abuser. II have known many young women (girls, really) who have given in to sexual advances because they were treated so badly at home that giving in to the attentions of a teenaged boy was the only way they could feel loved. I realize that the situations are quite different, but many women are in such emotional disarray that they are really in despair, and the punishment they will face later in life for knowing they have killed their child is much worse than anything society can do to them.
Then there are women who treat abortion as a form of birth control, for whom I have no sympathy at all.
And of course I believe the providers should be treated as the killers that they are. In fact, they are serial killers for hire.
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Rick Luquette
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Ali
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| Joined: | Sat Jan 6th, 2007 |
| Location: | Ohio USA |
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| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 12:30 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: Strictly my opinion.....
I don't want to minimize the evil that is abortion, but many women who have them are extremely distraught, emotionally unstable, often quite young, sometimes facing severe financial difficulties, at risk of losing husbands and family, etc. I think we need to treat them with compassion and offer them support and forgiveness, much as we do when a woman is forced to kill an attacker or an abuser. II have known many young women (girls, really) who have given in to sexual advances because they were treated so badly at home that giving in to the attentions of a teenaged boy was the only way they could feel loved. I realize that the situations are quite different, but many women are in such emotional disarray that they are really in despair, and the punishment they will face later in life for knowing they have killed their child is much worse than anything society can do to them.
Oh, I so agree with this. Abortion gets all the focus. But so many times there are causes and reasons leading up to the abortion. All of those things need addressed!!! Until that is done women will use or do anything to avoid being a mother  To me, while abortion is a serious problem in our society, many times it is only a symptom of a more debilitating disease.
Ali
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BodRod
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 771 |
| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 01:32 pm |
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| My guess is that as a psychologist (Ret.) I have heard most of the reasons and excuses for abortion. I agree that there can be a lot of emotional stress, fear, parental pressure, boyfriend pressure, etc., etc., etc. leading to an abortion. I also agree that abortion can be a symptom of a problem in our society. However, I still feel that the law is two-faced when it comes to the perception and treatment of infants. Last edited on Tue Jan 29th, 2008 02:42 pm by BodRod
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Annie
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| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
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| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 01:38 pm |
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Ali wrote:
Oh, I so agree with this. Abortion gets all the focus. But so many times there are causes and reasons leading up to the abortion. All of those things need addressed!!! Until that is done women will use or do anything to avoid being a mother To me, while abortion is a serious problem in our society, many times it is only a symptom of a more debilitating disease.
Ali
I agree with this. The Church claims that a large percentage of abortions are coerced so to be just the woman is as much a victim as the baby. I would hate to see a 14 year old victim of statutory rape go to prison for a coerced abortion and I read recently in a Catholic newspaper a letter from a person gleefully hoping that this would certainly happen. This is certainly an area with gray areas and hidden things that are too large for our minds to wrap around.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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Ali
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| Joined: | Sat Jan 6th, 2007 |
| Location: | Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 660 |
| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 02:30 pm |
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BodRod wrote: However, I still feel that the law is two-faced when it comes to the treatment the infant.
Yes, I have always thought that as well. I asked on my more liberal minded mom board about this before and they couldn't circle talk fast enough around it without ever answering my question.
Ali
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1414 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical "Jesus Freak" (Arminian) / "Lewisian Schaefferite" / Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 10:37 pm |
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I believe that it was very rare pre-Roe for a woman to be charged with murder due to aborting her child. No doubt that is how it would be if Roe is overturned. I agree that many (perhaps a great majority of) abortions are in coercive circumstances: often with men (boyfriends, husbands, and fathers) putting pressure on the women to do this. The woman who kills her child is a victim: in some ways even more sadly so than the child, because she has to live with this decision, and has been exploited not only by pressure but by willful disinformation from those who stand to profit from the killing.
I say: don't prosecute such women at all, but give them love, counseling, and better information so that they can have a happier future life. Go after the real butchers: the so-called "doctors" and the profiteers such as Planned Parenthood and the drug companies that are now getting into this grisly business.
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
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| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Wed Jan 30th, 2008 12:50 am |
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It just so happens that Fr. Frank Pavone, head of Priests for Life, covered this exact topic in his email message today:
Jailing Women?
Fr. Frank Pavone
National Director, Priests for Life
Question: “When abortion becomes illegal again, are we going to start throwing all the women who have abortions into jail?”
Answer: No. The people who should go to jail in that case are the abortionists.
This particular question will be raised more and more as we to come closer to restoring protection to the unborn. The question is actually part of the well-planned public relations attack that abortion advocates always try to make on us in the pro-life movement. We are anti-woman, after all. Isn’t that the only logical reason why we would oppose abortion in the first place? That’s what they want the public to believe.
Yet the fact is that to be pro-life is to be pro-woman. We don’t say love the baby and forget about the mother. Rather, we ask, Why can’t we love them both? This is not just true when abortion is legal. It’s also true when it’s illegal.
The pro-life movement is not out to punish women. Our goal, instead, is to stop child-killing. What would throwing women in jail do to accomplish that goal? Their children have already died, yet the abortionist goes on killing hundreds and thousands of others. It makes far more sense to put the abortionist in jail, so that he or she can no longer kill children.
Moreover, the woman who gets an illegal abortion is the best source of information and evidence needed to convict the abortionist. If she feared prosecution, she would never admit to the abortion, which would make it harder to find the abortionist.
This doesn’t excuse the woman’s wrongdoing; rather, it is the same principle by which the state grants immunity to a small-time drug user in exchange for information leading to a big-time drug dealer.
This approach takes nothing away from the biological fact that abortion destroys a human life, nor from the moral fact that the life taken is of the same value as any born person. But consider how the law approaches the killing of born people. Murder is not the same as homicide, which is not the same as manslaughter. Factors of premeditation, heat of passion, ignorance, negligence, and cooperation in the action of someone else are all taken into account in order to assess as fairly as possible how much responsibility the individual actually had.
Consider these words from someone who had an abortion: “I really had no idea of what I was doing. I was completely ignorant about fetal development. I just wanted to get out of the crisis I was in.” More than any other form of killing, abortion is accompanied by pressure and ignorance. If we were going to start prosecuting women, we would actually end up prosecuting more boyfriends and parents.
But in fact, we conduct a ministry of healing, not of punishment. We want to bring those who have been involved in abortions to the freedom, forgiveness, and peace of Christ. That’s how we answer what will be a more and more common question.
Reposted with permission from Priests for Life.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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heardclarke
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| Joined: | Mon Apr 9th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
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| First Name: | Lisa | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Episcopalian; confirmed RC Easter 2005 |
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Posted: Wed Jan 30th, 2008 11:18 am |
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I agree that the woman is usually under extreme pressure and should not be punished. The three women I know who did this went through terrible guilt already. But there is another reason that I think nobody has yet mentioned. I don't know much about the law, but if you do something while it is technically legal, how can you be prosecuted later if it becomes illegal?
Are we all talking about the abortions that are being performed now, or those that might be done after the decision were overturned? Certainly those that are performed after the law is changed would be illegal as well as immoral.
The abortion doctors and organizations like Planned Parenthood are in it for the money. They would lose their livelihood. That's hitting them where it hurts.
If they continued to kill babies after their states passed new laws, then of course they could be prosecuted as the willful murderers they are. But most would quietly disappear and find other "work," just as the people who worked for the Nazi machine in Germany did when they had the chance.
Just a few thoughts. I guess I am being the "devil's advocate."
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catholic
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| Joined: | Mon Jan 15th, 2007 |
| Location: | Dublin, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 34 |
| First Name: | Paul | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Non-Specific Protestant -> Catholic (Latin Rite) |
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Posted: Wed Mar 5th, 2008 01:03 am |
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mea_maxima_culpa wrote:
This seems to be a favorite foil of pro-choice folks. Although the church, I don't believe has a position on this, I would like to hear more from those in the pro-life movement as to a response to this, so when I am asked, I have a reply.
First - I don't think that "pro-choice" is an accurate term, but a euphemism. Pro-abortion would be more accurate.
Second - The pro-abortion crowd like this argument for two reasons.
1) It seems to expose a hypocrisy - if killing is wrong then why would the women get a pass if abortion were illegal?
2) There isn't a satisfactory sound bite answer.
IMHO Everyone involved in taking the life of an innocent human being should be held accountable, and mitigating circumstances should be taken into consideration.
I don't think it is fair to treat the woman coerced into an illegal abortion the same as one who chooses to have an illegal abortion simply for convenience sake. Treat each case individually according to the merits of the case.
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"A teacher who is not dogmatic is simply a teacher who is not teaching."
Gilbert K. Chesterton
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