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Candlemass
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| Location: | Hudson, Ohio USA |
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| First Name: | Mark | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, AOG, Baptist, non - denominational, Anglican, CC for life! |
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Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2008 02:02 pm |
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| I was wondering if there is any official statement from the Church if a Catholic should go to any of these groups to overcome addictions. With all do respect, I'm not interested in opinons, I've heard most of them, pro and con from both Protestants and Catholics, I was just wondering if the Church has said anything regarding these groups.
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"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2008 03:58 pm |
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While Pope John Paul II and numerous bishops around the world have privately praised the 12-step program idea, there is no official Church stand on them because they are not religious entities or ideologies. I think that overall they are as effective as anything out there, and they are not intrinsically in conflict with any Christian teaching. (In fact, the functionality of the 12-step method is founded on generic Christian teaching plus a little basic psychology.) But of course, as with anything of this kind, an individual’s results may vary.
David
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UpinAK
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Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2008 05:45 pm |
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Dr. Bob and Bill Wilson (the cofounders of AA) received a great deal of input from both a Catholic nun and Jesuit priests in writing the 12 Steps of AA, which have since been utilized by many many other "me-too's.
Of note... the word alcohol appears in just one of the twelve steps, the first admitting we were powerless over alcohol. The remaining steps deal with getting right with God and your fellow man.
"I can't, he can, I think I'll let him" AKA steps 1,2,3...
Often folks with alcohol and addiction issues have a very tough time with organized religion in general. 12 step programs often become the first step to a life in Christ.
Is this post opinion??? I dunno... probably not... looked it over again... I would consider it factual rather than a matter of opinion. But that's just my opinion.
With Grace For Us All,
Robert
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"Ab adversario mota quaestio discendi existit occasio" Cf. St. Augustine, De civ. Dei 2,I
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2008 06:18 pm |
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See the articles from Catholic Answers:
The Catholic Contribution to the 12-Step Movement
The Catholicity of 12-Step Programs
(both by W. Robert Aufill)
You don't always find an "official" Catholic statement on everything, but if something is espoused or endorsed by many reputable Catholics then chances are we can consider it harmonious with Catholic teaching.
Catholic 12 Step Program (Catholic version of the 12 steps)
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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mrsbmoo
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Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2008 03:09 am |
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| I know NA meets at our church a couple times a week. Our priest always warned us about respecting their privacy and anonymity.
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Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 10 months and 17
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Kayla
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Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2008 12:46 pm |
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| At last Sunday's Mass, the Deacon preached on the beattitude of "Blessed are the poor in spirit". He likened it to the first step of the 12-Step program, and that is admitting that there is a problem and that you are powerless to fix it. You need somone's help. So it is with one who is truly poor in spirit. They recognize that even their every breath is dependent on God's love.
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I believe, Lord, help my unbelief.
Jesus, I trust in You!
There's not a lot of job security for us after death. I suppose that's one advantage of being a philosopher. - Peter Kreeft
http://kayla23mount.blogspot.com/
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Candlemass
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| First Name: | Mark | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, AOG, Baptist, non - denominational, Anglican, CC for life! |
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Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2008 01:29 pm |
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| Now that I know there is no official decree from the Church on these programs, feel free to give your opinions/experiences. I used to be involved w/them, as an addict myself, I am considering returning. I had all kinds of theological/philosophical problems w/the group in the past, but like Rick has said, and a woman from a Protestant run ministy I am still involved with, it is our resposibility to turn from all known sin and seek God w/all our heart, this may be a good avenue for me to do that, w/out neglecting the Church. Last edited on Thu Feb 7th, 2008 01:30 pm by Candlemass
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"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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Prayerie Pal
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Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 04:56 pm |
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I've heard it said that 12 step programs and the like are what Protestants do instead of calling it going to "Confession."
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God gave us memory so we could have roses in winter.
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Candlemass
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Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 05:08 pm |
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Prayerie Pal wrote: I've heard it said that 12 step programs and the like are what Protestants do instead of calling it going to "Confession."
Never heard that one, but I know of many Catholics involved in these programs, in fact, many priests in confession have adivsed the confessor to go to these programs to aid in the healing process.
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"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 05:58 pm |
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Candlemass wrote: Prayerie Pal wrote: I've heard it said that 12 step programs and the like are what Protestants do instead of calling it going to "Confession."
Never heard that one, but I know of many Catholics involved in these programs, in fact, many priests in confession have adivsed the confessor to go to these programs to aid in the healing process.
And frankly, I know several priests who have been actively involved in AA as treatment for their own alcohol problems.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Prayerie Pal
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Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 06:09 pm |
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| By all means, they're great. Where I heard it from was my hubby. Since our former faith community was so "anti-Catholic" and anti-confession, he thought it was intersting that they still had a need to meet and "confess their sins, one to another" to help in the healing process. My hubby comes up with some real eye-openers with his "dry-witted observations." (no pun intended.)
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God gave us memory so we could have roses in winter.
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Candlemass
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Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 06:27 pm |
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| There are those fundy's who are rigidly opposed to all 12-step groups, "all you need is your bible", "they don't mention Jesus".........I've learned to ignore them.
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"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 10:09 pm |
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There are those fundy's who are rigidly opposed to all 12-step groups, "all you need is your bible",
The only problem is that the Bible never states "all you need is your bible".
Slight problem of incoherence there, to say the least . . .
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Prayerie Pal
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Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 10:35 pm |
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But try telling that to a 'bible alone' type. I find it weird how they get all mad and "fly off in a huff" when that's pointed out to 'em. I mean, I don't do it to be mean or argumentative....but Truth is Truth, right?
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God gave us memory so we could have roses in winter.
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Candlemass
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Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 10:50 pm |
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| I've seen the red faced steam come out of some of them!
____________________
"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2008 02:25 am |
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Candlemass wrote: I was just wondering if the Church has said anything regarding these groups.
I know that in my diocese, Catholic Social Services operates a halfway house for alcoholic men, and sponsors several AA groups. I'm sure NA is also offered, and OA meets at our parish.
So while I doubt the Vatican has ever issued an official statement, the Church (at least in my area) certainly supports and facilitates 12 step groups.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Connie
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 12:41 am |
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Dear Candlemass:
I don't feel 12-step programs are what "cures" a person, therefore it is my opinion that they're not very useful. I feel strongly knowing "who we are in Christ", and living it out is the only answer. Seeking the Lord's face, believing that when we are living in the Spirit and not in the flesh, we will prevail. We are all NEW CREATIONS IN CHRIST, as Galations says. The old has passed away, behold the new is here! Praise the Lord!
I myself have battled addictions too. It seems to be only when I turn to the Lord and begin praying for self-control, etc., praying the Rosary, daily devotions, frequent Mass, turning my weaknesses towards the Cross, that I win, and will ever win the battle.
If you're talking about yourself, I'll be glad to pray for you.
In Christ,
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~Connie~
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 12:53 am |
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Connie, the reason 12-step programs work better than most regimens for addictions and disorders is precisely because they help the person to focus on divine aid in getting free. This is specifically stated in the progression of the steps. I think the main difference between your approach and a 12-step program is that you are specifically Christian, whereas the 12-step program is designed more generically. I wouldn’t condemn either, since with due regard for the belief structure of the persons involved, I have seen both ways work very well.
David
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 04:28 am |
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Connie wrote: I don't feel 12-step programs are what "cures" a person, therefore it is my opinion that they're not very useful. I feel strongly knowing "who we are in Christ", and living it out is the only answer. Seeking the Lord's face, believing that when we are living in the Spirit and not in the flesh, we will prevail.
12-step programs are not intended to "cure" a person, and you will never hear one make that claim. What they do is help the person define the problem and that is half the battle. The other half of the battle is finding a way to live with the problem, and that is where spirituality comes in. Living day by day, sometimes hour by hour with an addiction would be impossible without a belief in a higher power (as AA calls it) that we can lean on. I have watched my father and my son struggle with this, as they learn to "work the program" and search for a relationship with God. AA works when the addict is willing to work. AA is very useful, and that's not my opinion, that's fact!
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Candlemass
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 04:48 am |
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| I believe that someone who is a true addict can be "cured", but it is not the norm, it is the exception, it is rare. Just like the person who loses an arm or a leg, they don't grow back! All things are possible w/God, but all things don't usually happen, how many of you have seen those who lose appendages get new ones?! Prayer and dependence on God is the key to working a 12-step program! I am in no way abandoning the Church for a 12-step program, sadly some do that, the Church is central to my recovery, to be honest w/you, if it wasn't for my belief in Christ, I don't think I would even want to recover.
____________________
"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 04:21 pm |
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The 12 steps of the 12-step AA program are so intertwined with spiritual growth that you can't separate the two. I think what some people are opposed to is that attending AA meetings can become in the minds of some people their "church." They may attend an early Sunday morning meeting and hear prayer, and other members speak of how God has helped them in their sobriety, and that's church to them. AA is not intended to take the place of church attendance, it does require a person to develop a relationship with their understanding of God as a higher power. Could a person achieve and maintain sobriety through a deep relationship with God? Yes, it's possible. Could a person do the same in AA without a relationship with God? No, because that reliance on a power stronger than himself is what AA is based on. The addict is powerless to control the addiction by himself. 6 of the 12 steps specifically mention a working relationship with God.
The usefulness of a 12-step program begins with knowing that you are not alone, that others have been in the same spot you're in, and they know what you're going through. Also, they're there for you whenever you need them, 24/7. They tell it like it is, so you won't hear a lot of bull___ excuses and they'll shoot yours down too. They will tell you alcoholism is a "thinking problem not a drinking problem." In other words, some people can have a drink and stop when they want to. Alcoholics can't stop, they think one more won't hurt, or they have been sober a long time and just one now won't get me in trouble, or I deserve just one because of ..... and it never stops with one.
I talked with my son about this today. I asked him in what ways AA is useful, and these are some of the things he said. He is an alcoholic, at his young age. I have seen how meeting these people and going to the meetings have helped him take control of his life. I wouldn't want anyone reading this thread to think AA would be a waste of time, or that it wouldn't help them. Or NA (narcotics anonymous) either.
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Connie
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 05:58 pm |
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I'm sure many 12-step programs are really working for many. And they are good for non-Christians, as they do stress the belief in a "higher power". That's such a good thing!!!
I just think as a Christian/Catholic, there's something even better. Even a higher power than merely a "higher power". As I said, it's our Catholic faith, believing "who we are in Christ" is essential. Knowing we can't fully be "in Christ" if we're addicted to anything or anybody besides Him. This is pretty awesome to me.
Jesus, fill me, use me, guide me, make me your New Creation today.
One day at a time is my motto.
Prayin' for ya brother Candlemass~
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~Connie~
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Candlemass
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 06:35 pm |
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| I understand what your saying Connie, but you are making a false dichotomy, the Catholic or Protestant christian working the program understands who his higher power is, to wit, the program and the Church should not be at odds w/each other but rather work together in harmony.
____________________
"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 09:38 pm |
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I agree with Candle. The dichotomy isn't:
A) 12-step for non-Christians to resolve addictions.
B) Scripture, prayer, devotion, Mass, the sacraments, the Holy Spirit's guidance, God's grace, supernatural healing, etc. for Catholics or other Christians to resolve addictions
but rather:
1) 12-step for non-Christians to resolve addictions, particularly because they don't have the multiple advantages of B.
2) A+B for Christians / Catholics if it works best, or just B if that works, but A is not inconsistent with B and so may be used if necessary.
Whatever is true is true, whether explicitly Christian or not. 12-step programs are a good example of that, since they are derived from quite Christian principles, combined with a knowledge of social interaction and social psychology. So it makes no sense to pit them against Christian teachings, because it isn't hostile to them in the first place. Moreover, it has a proven track record of curing addictions (or rendering them ineffective or harmless or whatever the proper term is).
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Candlemass
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 09:41 pm |
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I'm A+B positvie! 
____________________
"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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Dave Armstrong
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