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Laughing Elf
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| Joined: | Sat Feb 16th, 2008 |
| Location: | Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 47 |
| First Name: | Rod | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Methodist, PCA, agnostic, Buddhist, Episcopalian, Methodist |
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Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2008 03:17 am |
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One day this past week I heard of two women announcing their pregnancy. One was my married niece, the other an unmarried co-worker.
My niece's news was joyful for the entire family.
The unmarried co-worker sent out an email "just so we would not be the last to know", and let us know that she was pregnant via an anonymous donor. She also mentioned that she did not care how we felt about that type of pregnancy because "she was OK with it".
Those of us who were her teammates congratulated her on her "happy news".
I wonder, since my journey toward the RCC is in its first stages ( pre RCIA), what the Roman Catholic Church's position is on this issue.
It certainly was an awkward moment for all of us.
Peace,
Rod
____________________
"Home is behind, the world ahead,
And there are many paths to tread
Through shadows to the edge of night,
Until the stars are all alight."
Tolkien, LOTR I
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2008 05:14 am |
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Yes, it is awkward, Rod, because this lady has chosen to “do good” in an immoral manner. This is like curing a headache by cutting off your head. I think I would have replied to her news with a message of mixed feelings: I rejoice because you recognize the good of human life, but am sorrowful because you do not see that resorting an unnatural and potentially harmful means to that good end destroys whatever good that may have resulted.
Why is it potentially harmful? Because its effects have not been studied long enough to allow its full effects to become evident. It took 30 years before we began seeing the fuller picture of the dangers of chemical contraception. Now we know it causes a wide range of illnesses from cancer to psycho-sexual problems.
We know that artificial insemination effectively eliminates both the spousal bond for the woman but also the parental bond for the baby. The psychological need for family has been known for centuries and shows itself in the warped personalities of many of the deprived. The physical need for family has been studied for over a century and is glaringly evident in the lack of development and “thriving.” There is also a social penalty resulting from a lack of educational opportunity and medical care for many children of fatherless families.
These are just a few of the scientific reasons against deviant sexual practices such as artificial insemination. Those who approve and engage in such behavior may object to our moral and religious reasons, but they still have to deal with the obvious material consequences.
David
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Laughing Elf
Member
| Joined: | Sat Feb 16th, 2008 |
| Location: | Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 47 |
| First Name: | Rod | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Methodist, PCA, agnostic, Buddhist, Episcopalian, Methodist |
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Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2008 03:52 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote: Yes, it is awkward, Rod, because this lady has chosen to “do good” in an immoral manner. This is like curing a headache by cutting off your head. I think I would have replied to her news with a message of mixed feelings: I rejoice because you recognize the good of human life, but am sorrowful because you do not see that resorting an unnatural and potentially harmful means to that good end destroys whatever good that may have resulted.
Why is it potentially harmful? Because its effects have not been studied long enough to allow its full effects to become evident. It took 30 years before we began seeing the fuller picture of the dangers of chemical contraception. Now we know it causes a wide range of illnesses from cancer to psycho-sexual problems.
We know that artificial insemination effectively eliminates both the spousal bond for the woman but also the parental bond for the baby. The psychological need for family has been known for centuries and shows itself in the warped personalities of many of the deprived. The physical need for family has been studied for over a century and is glaringly evident in the lack of development and “thriving.” There is also a social penalty resulting from a lack of educational opportunity and medical care for many children of fatherless families.
These are just a few of the scientific reasons against deviant sexual practices such as artificial insemination. Those who approve and engage in such behavior may object to our moral and religious reasons, but they still have to deal with the obvious material consequences.
David
David,
Thanks for your insights. I too agree that without a wholistic family unit (two parents, biological children), varying degrees of psychological difficulties arise. These facts are right in front of my face when looking at family and friends.
The challenge for the Christian is how to present the love of Christ in such a situation that you describe as "this lady has chosen to “do good” in an immoral manner. "
Children are not mere possessions to add to ones' material collection.
Yet, in a materialist culture that focuses upon superficial symbols of happiness a "child" becomes another avenue to travel in the never ending "search for happiness".
Does the RCC have an outreach or apostalate ( boy is this a big question !) that addresses these issues, or assists people along this line? Just curious.
Many thanks for your service to this community,
peace,
Rod
____________________
"Home is behind, the world ahead,
And there are many paths to tread
Through shadows to the edge of night,
Until the stars are all alight."
Tolkien, LOTR I
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2008 06:42 pm |
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Children are not mere possessions to add to ones' material collection. Yet, in a materialist culture that focuses upon superficial symbols of happiness a "child" becomes another avenue to travel in the never ending "search for happiness".
This is precisely what I was pointing to, Rod. We are on the same page.
Does the RCC have an outreach or apostalate (boy is this a big question!) that addresses these issues, or assists people along this line?
I don’t have a specific lead for you off the top of my head. My bailiwick is more in the line of theology. Give me some time to research it and I’ll get back to you.
David
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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| Posts: | 5080 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2008 06:52 pm |
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Laughing Elf wrote: I wonder, since my journey toward the RCC is in its first stages ( pre RCIA), what the Roman Catholic Church's position is on this issue.
David and Rod have covered the answers well but without a clear statement of Church teaching, so let me state that the Church condemns artificial insemination as a moral evil, especially when it involves donor sperm.
Culpability is somewhat lessened if artificial insemination is used as an aid to conception for a married couple having difficulty conceiving naturally, but it is still not accepted. At least in the latter case there is a loving marital relationship which will provide a proper home for the child that is the result of the union of husband and wife.
But the teaching of the Church is clear in the case of a single woman impregnated artifically by donor sperm. While every child is a blessing from God, this child is the result of multiple sinful acts and, as David said, we have no idea what the ramifications will be decades down the road.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 12:38 pm |
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OK, Rod, I’ve done a little looking around, and what I find is that there is a lot of material on how the Church considers artificial insemination a sin, a variety of consequences witnessed (such as this legal nightmare) and a general overview of how this issue is part of the larger pro-life position that the Church has always maintained. But there appears to be no specifically designated apostolate focused on artificial insemination.
The issue seems to be approached simply as an acknowledged part of the plethora of more general pro-life apostolates, both those geared to ideology and public policy and those that focus on direct intervention in the lives of those suffering the consequences of individual or societal violations of natural law, such as pregnancy crisis centers.
This doesn’t mean nothing is being done — witness the dozens of references that I uncovered — but that evidently the incidence of artificial insemination is not great enough to support a separate ministry. It does take a kind of extreme attitude to accept such a procedure, given the popularity of man-woman relationships in the world at large. Such attitudes seem to be centered around the consequences of what has been called the “contraceptive mentality” and homosexuality.
David
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Laughing Elf
Member
| Joined: | Sat Feb 16th, 2008 |
| Location: | Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 47 |
| First Name: | Rod | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Methodist, PCA, agnostic, Buddhist, Episcopalian, Methodist |
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Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 02:33 am |
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David W. Emery wrote: OK, Rod, I’ve done a little looking around, ............... there appears to be no specifically designated apostolate focused on artificial insemination.
The issue seems to be approached simply as an acknowledged part of the plethora of more general pro-life apostolates, both those geared to ideology and public policy and those that focus on direct intervention in the lives of those suffering the consequences of individual or societal violations of natural law, such as pregnancy crisis centers.
It does take a kind of extreme attitude to accept such a procedure, given the popularity of man-woman relationships in the world at large. Such attitudes seem to be centered around the consequences of what has been called the “contraceptive mentality” and homosexuality.
David
Thanks for looking David, and thanks also to Rick for his post clarifying the RCC position.
I just feel rather sad about the woman involved, because she was so "in your face" about not caring what others thought about her decision, which was the right decision "by virtue of her having made that decision".
Another soul "lost in the woods".........
What I find in my book reading, and reading the posts and replies here is a rather amazingly consistent weltanschauung. I picked up the Catechism the other day and stand stunned at the amount of prayerful work that has gone into this document. It becomes obvious that the RCC has not bent the big issues to fit the times. The Truth has stood and been enhanced through the historical tradition. The consistent foundation allows a 2000 year old church to make consistent pronouncements in a Catechism about modern medical procedures. Truly amazing.
peace,
Rod
____________________
"Home is behind, the world ahead,
And there are many paths to tread
Through shadows to the edge of night,
Until the stars are all alight."
Tolkien, LOTR I
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5080 |
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Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 02:49 am |
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Laughing Elf wrote: Another soul "lost in the woods".........
But know that no matter what, God still loves her and her child. And the sins of the mother are not held against the child.
What I find in my book reading, and reading the posts and replies here is a rather amazingly consistent weltanschauung.
OK, you lost me on that one.
I picked up the Catechism the other day and stand stunned at the amount of prayerful work that has gone into this document. It becomes obvious that the RCC has not bent the big issues to fit the times. The Truth has stood and been enhanced through the historical tradition. The consistent foundation allows a 2000 year old church to make consistent pronouncements in a Catechism about modern medical procedures. Truly amazing.
Welcome to the Catholic Church. 
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 03:40 am |
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I just feel rather sad about the woman involved, because she was so "in your face" about not caring what others thought about her decision, which was the right decision "by virtue of her having made that decision".
This defiant attitude shows just how confident she is in her position. If you look into the depths of her soul, you will see that she knows she did wrong.
What I find in my book reading, and reading the posts and replies here is a rather amazingly consistent weltanschauung.
It’s the Catholic way, Rod, to follow the divine will as closely as possible with the help of grace. This, we believe, is what brings about true unity. One God, one truth, one way.
David
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Laughing Elf
Member
| Joined: | Sat Feb 16th, 2008 |
| Location: | Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 47 |
| First Name: | Rod | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Methodist, PCA, agnostic, Buddhist, Episcopalian, Methodist |
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Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 03:28 am |
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CajunRick wrote: Laughing Elf wrote: What I find in my book reading, and reading the posts and replies here is a rather amazingly consistent weltanschauung.
OK, you lost me on that one.
I picked up the Catechism the other day and stand stunned at the amount of prayerful work that has gone into this document. It becomes obvious that the RCC has not bent the big issues to fit the times. The Truth has stood and been enhanced through the historical tradition. The consistent foundation allows a 2000 year old church to make consistent pronouncements in a Catechism about modern medical procedures. Truly amazing.
Welcome to the Catholic Church.
Rick,
I've been on call at work for the past week.... that is like being transported to a strange planet  in a different time warp.
Now that I'm back I see that I left a word undefined.......I apologize.
Weltanschauung, is German, and there is no equilivant word in English. It means "world-life view point". So my point was, that I see in my studies of Catholicism an extraordinarily consistent world-life view point.
Thanks for the "Welcome". I've been to http://www.newadvent.org/ and been looking at the Catholic Encyclopedia  I picked a "little" word/phrase "the mass" and the article is 24 pages of hypertext linked historical, theological, philosophical, and practical discussion of the mass over 2 millenia.
I suspect it will take a couple of hundred years to read even a tithe of the extant works by and on Catholicism. I'd better start soon....
peace,
Rod
____________________
"Home is behind, the world ahead,
And there are many paths to tread
Through shadows to the edge of night,
Until the stars are all alight."
Tolkien, LOTR I
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Annie
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| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
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Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 04:32 pm |
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Laughing Elf wrote: I suspect it will take a couple of hundred years to read even a tithe of the extant works by and on Catholicism. I'd better start soon....
peace,
Rod
Just remember that when your eyeballs fall out to pray to St. Lucy (she's the one holding the plate with your eyeballs on it). (wish that plate had eyeballs on it and was called "want eyeballs?")
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 05:54 pm |
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Laughing Elf wrote: Thanks for the "Welcome". I've been to http://www.newadvent.org/ and been looking at the Catholic Encyclopedia
While the information the Catholic Encyclopedia is excellent, keep in mind that it is the 1909 edition, so much of the information is not currently valid, or is in serious need of revision. For example, you can find reference to the fast before receiving the Eucharist is from midnight, while current Church regulations call for a minimum fast of one hour. Of course, all doctrine is the same, but many of the "traditions" (little "t") of the Church, such as the vestments worn by priests, have changed in the last century.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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EMarshallBuckles
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Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 07:55 pm |
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| One serious problem I would have with artificial insemination would be if it was done by the method of "harvesting ova" from the woman's ovaries and inseminating them in a lab container. My understanding is that when it is done in that manner, more several ova are fertilized and that some will be discarded afterwards or stored away in "deep freeze" in case they are needed and may be discarded later. Even if the artificial insemination is done in the manner similar to the "natural" process, so to speak, as my wife, a Child Protective Services Social Worker of nearly 31 (as of April) years of experience shares with me, she has long found that, truly, TWO parents - a loving FATHER AND MOTHER - are the BEST family for raising a child. Some people do manage in single parent households but it is not in any way the most mentally healthy, not the best means of raising a child. That is not in any way a "slam" against any single mothers out there, it is just a gentle acknowledgement of reality which many social workers, mental health professionals and clergy have found to be true down through the years. Yeah, some liberals will try to force their viewpoint and say that what I am saying is wrong, however, there are many more who would agree with what I just said than those who, in error, disagree. By the way, one of the ultimate goals of socialism and of communism is to totally destroy the family, totally destroy marriage and also to totally remove religion from human life.
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ordinary means
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Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2008 05:31 am |
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Last year at Xavier High School in Appleton, WI a teacher was let go for having this procedure. It was a big story in this area and I am sure you can find it by goggling the Post-Crescent. She sued and it was settled out of court. I do not know the outcome beyond that; other than to say the procedure is listed in her contract.
It’s a life issue. Many babies were formed so that she could become pregnant with one. The Church is clear on this subject. The remaining babies are destroyed. Babies are also destroyed in the freeze thaw process. It is simply a sin.
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