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Ali
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| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Apr 8th, 2008 01:35 pm |
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http://www2.oprah.com/tows/slide/200804/20080403/slide_20080403_350_101.jhtml
It's the story that has the media buzzing and people talking. Thomas and his wife, Nancy, are a happily married couple who run a small business, live in a normal neighborhood and are expecting their first child.
So why are they making headlines around the world? The husband, Thomas, is the one who's pregnant.
Woooo boy!
(BTW, I don't watch her, either. But a lot of the rest of the internet seems to. Wow.)
Ali
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Apr 8th, 2008 02:01 pm |
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Ali, I not only don’t watch Oprah, I don’t watch television. I stopped altogether several years ago — had my cable service disconnected, the TV set sitting in a dusty corner ever since — when I realized that there was nothing edifying on it any more outside of EWTN, which I can get over the internet. A needless expense, I must say.
As to this couple: There are people who will do anything just because they can. It’s on TV for the shock value; this is the video equivalent of yellow journalism. But one gets respect only in the old fashioned way: he earns it.
David
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Tue Apr 8th, 2008 03:15 pm |
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I don't watch Oprah daily or even weekly, but sometimes she does have a worthwhile show. I did watch most of this one out of curiosity and skepticism, knowing it's impossible for a man to be pregnant! This is a woman who is living as a man, and she was pretty convincing in appearance. She has apparently had surgery to make her anatomically a man, but retaining her female anatomy. Don't ask me, I don't understand either!
I am increasingly bothered by the notion that everyone deserves to have children, let alone that they want to have them only when they want them. It's becoming to be an entitlement, just like same sex marriage. As I have become catholic and have a new perspective on things "of the world" I see that God gave a natural order to the world. Part of that natural order is the relationship between Adam and Eve, men and women. We can't toy around with it, trying to stretch it here and condense it there, in an effort to make God's plan suit our own self-centered desires.
In the same week I saw this show, it was announced that researchers someplace had "successfully" combined human and cow (I believe it was cow, it might have been another farm animal) embryos. I fear for the world my children and grandchildren will be living in.
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Tue Apr 8th, 2008 03:43 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote: I don’t watch television.
Me too....sorta. I watch EWTN a lot. Mostly at dinner time for the West Coast, Marcus on Mondays, Mother Angelica on Tuesdays etc. etc. Then occasional specials. I like the other evening shows, but most of my time is spent reading. I still watch the news which is probably a bad. A habit I got into when I was in college and working on a couple of stations as a newscastor and DJ. I thought about going into radio, but back then I was told there was no money in it. Hah....big mistake.
Even my sports watching has dropped almost totally off. The rich kids playing their money games have pretty much turned me off. Oh well...this old curmugeon is happy. I got my books, my good wife, the Lord...and am being gently nudge to the Catholic church. What more could I need?
Oprah? Oprah who?
Rich
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Apr 8th, 2008 05:04 pm |
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I don't watch Oprah, but this story has been all over the news. It's been kinda hard to miss.
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sewnsew
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Posted: Tue Apr 8th, 2008 05:06 pm |
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In response to a chat question last night: what they typically do in a sex change female to male they surgically remove the female organs- complete hysterectomy and oophorectomy and mastectomy. The they do some plastic surgery to add some male parts- ( don't ask me how they make them work though), In this sad person's case she stopped short of the hysterectomy part. ( again I am not sure how some regular functions were manged in her case each month) I just think that the future child is going to have a hard row to hoe- can you imagine the teasing alone, not to mention her ( yes it is a girl) confused outlook on life. The "mother" in this case was a friend of the "father" before the sex change then after the change they married. What kind of skewed perceptions will that child grow up in towards men and women? An no I didn't watch the show but someone on a Christian sewing group posted the internet link to the video clip. Every one in my town thinks Oprah is some kind of hero because she donated funds to our community but I think that she is way out there.
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sewnsew
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Posted: Tue Apr 8th, 2008 05:19 pm |
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What was frightening too was that under the open comments how many young people posted messages about what a great thing this was.
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Tue Apr 8th, 2008 05:29 pm |
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| I agree with you this child will have a long row to hoe growing up under these circumstances. But right now I'm concerned about her having a good delivery. God created a masterpiece when He created woman! There are so many dynamics that go into the conceiving and development of a baby, and this woman has altered and messed with her body so much, disturbing the hormones and adding parts which are going to get way pushed aside, can you imagine labor and delivery? And it's not really a joke because there is a little life involved. They said on the show they had to search for a doctor willing to get involved with this, but sure enough they found one. I hope she enjoys her fifteen minutes of fame. Last edited on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 08:22 pm by Credo Catholic
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Apr 8th, 2008 06:23 pm |
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Credo Catholic wrote: But right now I'm concerned about her having a good delivery.
Since there is nothing natural left about this "woman" I doubt if natural childbirth is an option. I'm sure the child will be born surgically, probably early so as to avoid damaging any artificial male "parts".
There are few religions left which will condemn such an abomination. Thank God the Catholic Church is one of them.
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Didi
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Posted: Tue Apr 8th, 2008 08:14 pm |
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This is a little  , but...
I think we need to pray for Oprah. She is really leading so many people astray:
http://www.spiritdaily.org/oprahovertheline.htm
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Tue Apr 8th, 2008 08:25 pm |
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Didi wrote: This is a little , but...
I think we need to pray for Oprah. She is really leading so many people astray:
http://www.spiritdaily.org/oprahovertheline.htm
Amen 
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sewnsew
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Posted: Tue Apr 8th, 2008 08:34 pm |
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nce there is nothing natural left about this "woman" I doubt if natural childbirth is an option. I'm sure the child will be born surgically, probably early so as to avoid damaging any artificial male "parts".
Rick you took the words right out of my mouth... er pen . Not to get too graphic here East African women who have been infibulated are often re-sewen after they become pregnant to ensure that the baby is actually the father's( yeah I know but let's not go into that little perception) and after several children there have been birth injuries to both mother and child due to excessive scarring. I do wonder about the hormonal brew- even though (s)he went off testosterone apparently 2 years before (s)he got pregnant there is obviously some residual effects though by the time the excess female hormones have taken her through this pregnancy I do have wonder what (s)he will look like at the end of it all.
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Tue Apr 8th, 2008 10:33 pm |
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Phil 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. RSV
This keeps reminds me of what I should or should not watch.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Apr 8th, 2008 10:56 pm |
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kimdyuma wrote: (s)he
Personally, I prefer to use the pronoun "it". Isn't that what we usually use for an unknown child of unspecified gender? Isn't that the pronoun used on Saturday Night Live to describe "Pat"?
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Tue Apr 8th, 2008 11:40 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: kimdyuma wrote: (s)he
Personally, I prefer to use the pronoun "it". Isn't that what we usually use for an unknown child of unspecified gender? Isn't that the pronoun used on Saturday Night Live to describe "Pat"?
This person is pathetic. But Christ loves her. Sorry, no operation is going to change what you were made to be. And because Christ loves her, I must love her too. Forgive me for sounding holier than thou, but I'm dealing with these kinds of issues. St. Faustina has been putting me through a training school. What this person has done is a mortal sin. But that doesn't diminish God's love for her. I have no right to think anything different than what Christ thinks.
So, I pray, somehow Jesus and Mary our Mother will be revealed to her and bring her into the kingdom.
Rich
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Annie
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Posted: Wed Apr 9th, 2008 02:42 pm |
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I see on this thread and on others a Protestant-style judgmentalism. I would never call another human being "it" under any circumstances. That was one of my least favorite nicknames in school. It was nicer to call me Quasimodo.  I would not have appreciated being called "pathetic" either, though this is an epithet that people like to use when they are at a loss for words. Hint: when you are at a loss for words, don't call anybody anything.
Most of the people on this board have no idea of the pain that people go through who feel they are identified with the other gender. The same goes for people who are attracted to those of the same sex.
This is especially important to see from a human perspective since the Church has done such a poor job seeing everyone as being made as God's children regardless of their physical or mental problems. For example, in the pre-conciliar Church I would never have converted because of the hostility to women who didn't get married and have babies. The Church used to pretty much treat women as mindless baby-making machines. Thankfully, we have gotten beyond that. But the Church still is in denial that there are three components to sexuality, it is focused on the physical, in Thomist fashion of course.
Often it is much more painful for a person to be identified with the other gender than to experience same-sex attraction. For most people I think it would be helpful for them to realize that gender issues are very often driven by the world's values. For in Christ there is no male or female, slave or free, Jew or Greek. (Geek?)  If a girl likes to fish and play in the woods, she should not be insulted with the name "Tom-boy," which is as execrable a thing as you can call a young child. Or a boy who likes quiet activities and reading is not a "sissy." We need to get beyond labels and see what roles people can play in God's kingdom with their talents and gifts. Maybe the girl who likes to fish will grow up some day to go to a foreign country and live in a fishing village and help the people there devise a new kind of net that will work better in their shallow river.
We don't know what God has in mind for us until we get there and even then we may not recognize His hand.
Last edited on Wed Apr 9th, 2008 02:46 pm by Annie
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Annie
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sewnsew
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Posted: Wed Apr 9th, 2008 03:02 pm |
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Annie- as far as being a "tom-boy" or whatever personally I don't care. If everyone in the world except me wants a sex change- I don't care BUT they are bringing a helpless child into this mix- aside from the hormonal mixture that may be affecting this baby girl prenatally, there is also a psycological component to their family makeup. If you feel that being called a Tomboy is serious issue what do you think will happen to this little girl as she hits school?
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Wed Apr 9th, 2008 03:07 pm |
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| Annie, are you condoning what this woman has/is doing? In condemning our attitudes toward her behavior are you saying the world should look the other way ... accepting it? Yes, name calling is wrong and unchristian, I agree. Point taken. But this flagrant disregard for the sanctity of the body can't be ignored or condoned. No one is saying a girl (or woman) shouldn't enjoy fishing or be good at it. We all want our sons to read well and to excel in school. I think our society, at least in the west, has come that far. We may still have a long way to go along those lines, but I'm having trouble jumping from the enjoyment of outdoor activities to surgery to "change a gender." It goes back to the natural order created by God. Not all women look the same, behave the same, have the same interests. But they were made by God as women. There is no gray area here, IMO.
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Annie
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Posted: Wed Apr 9th, 2008 04:18 pm |
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There obviously isnt a gray area about this BUT one must wonder what it is that puts people down this terrible path and part of it is the judgmentalism of well-meaning church people. Or what I call the "mean church people steamroller." If children are loved as who they are and not made to be what they are not they maybe won't end up as adults being somebody that God doesn't intend them to. One must understand the force of societal pressure early on. Our society accepts the results of things but does not try to prevent it in the first place.
I wish I had had an understanding adult in my past but now I am older and know that I am a good scientist and probably should be single because my career has caused me to have to be mobile. Instead of being bad, this has been tremendously freeing. The Benedictine concept of stability comes into play here as the stability has to be internal rather than external. People who run into sexual and gender problems are lacking in internal stability because external stability is the only kind the world knows.
And Opray Winfrey definitely needs to be condemned to making money off of other people's tragedies. As well as other things she has done. I was tempted to say she is in no way a Christian but only God knows why she does the things she does.
Last edited on Wed Apr 9th, 2008 04:24 pm by Annie
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Ora et labora
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sewnsew
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Posted: Wed Apr 9th, 2008 04:33 pm |
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I understand about the not judging people etc to a point but I do wonder how much our of society's problems stem from a lack of "moral judging" It's a hards area to be sure. Often in converstaions i get told "well your children are lucky" they haven't had to deal with divorce and broken home issues. That is so true but the tone or attitude behind the comment and sometimes the even the wording is that they are spoiled or somehow coddled becuase they haven't had to face it. The other unspoken in this is that somehow we are not the "norm" . According to statistics that is probably true but how has being super tolerant helped us or any other western society? It is a fine line between judgement and amorality and I don't know what the answer is.
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Wed Apr 9th, 2008 05:38 pm |
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| Don't you think it's hard to excercise moral judgement nowadays? Not with ourselves but with others. Maybe its not just nowadays but has always been so. If I see a young woman at mass wearing a low cut sleeveless top, I think to myself she shouldn't be wearing that anywhere much less to mass. But I would never say that anywhere except here. I hear of people who are living immoral lives, my own son is living with his girlfriend. I let him know in a kind way I didn't like it, but I haven't made a tiff out of it. It's a thin line to walk between having good moral judgement and living it yourself and "sharing it" with others, but not beating others over the head with it.
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sewnsew
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Posted: Wed Apr 9th, 2008 05:38 pm |
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I think that many in our society are starting to look for moral absolutes- when I was overseas that was one of the main motivators for some of my fellow volunteers becoming Muslim. Here in Arizona I here so many people talk about why they became mormon was becuase of the strong family and socail teachings of the LDS church.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Apr 9th, 2008 07:44 pm |
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kimdyuma wrote:I do wonder how much our of society's problems stem from a lack of "moral judging"
Credo Catholic wrote:Don't you think it's hard to excercise moral judgement nowadays?
This is precisely the point I was attempting to get people to discuss theoretically the other day in the “Fraternal Correction” thread. Now we have a practical example of how a shocking moral aberration prompts people to voice their adherence to natural law by deploring not just the sin but also the sinner. Then those on the other side accuse these people of being “judgmental” — and with good reason.
Annie is right in calling for true Christians to love the sinner while hating the sin. For without fraternal charity in every case, there is no defense for one’s moral position. Jesus makes this point strongly when he speaks of the Pharisee and the Publican (Luke 18:9–14). God sends his rain upon the just and the unjust; we should likewise love the unrepentant along with the repentant. Yes, we must stand our ground morally, but we must not do so in a manner that denigrates other human beings. That is hypocrisy. We have an equal obligation to love our enemy (Matthew 5:43–44); that is part of loving our neighbor as ourselves, and it needs to be part of our moral high ground.
David
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mg57
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 03:10 am |
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I read this article, pertinent to this topic, originally in the journal First Things, and is available here online -
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0093.html
Paul McHugh is University Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry at Johns Hopkins University. His publications include The Perspectives of Psychiatry and Genes, Brain and Behavior. Elected a member of the Institute of Medicine, National Academy of Sciences, he currently serves on the President's Council on Bioethics.
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Annie
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 01:06 pm |
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That is a good article. It is helpful to realize that our sexuality has 3 components, what we are physically, who we are attracted to, and with whom we identify. Transgendered people tend to be both homosexual and transgendered, sometimes they are not, they feel they were born into the wrong body but are not attracted to members of the same sex. In these cases, the cure is to just realize that there may be something God wants them to do that is special like my example of the fisherwoman or the boy who likes feminine and child care stuff might be the next Maria Montessori (Mario Montessori?).
It is a major hassle to go through sex reassignment surgery and it is NEVER done lightly, please realize that. It is expensive and very dangerous. It is a measure of the amount of pain that transgendered people feel that they are willing to go through with that. But as church people we need to make people who are uncomfortable with themselves find the God who makes all things new. Being judgmental has always done more harm than good, especially when we go off half-cocked and say things we don't really mean.
In any case, we must think, what can we as Christians do to actually help rather than going tut tut, eeuw, how gross.
And by the way I never watch Oprah and wouldn't think of watching something like that, ditto the View or any of that stuff. I had not heard of these people before. Call me sheltered, but it's on purpose. The less I have to hear about stuff like that, the less judgmental I will be because I am not deliberately bombarding myself with it. My TV only tunes to 4 favorites, EWTN, Bloomberg, CNBC, and the Outdoor Channel.
Last edited on Thu Apr 10th, 2008 01:12 pm by Annie
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Annie
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