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brian
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Posted: Wed Feb 14th, 2007 01:08 am |
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RCIA this week dealt with the sacrament of marriage and the churches teachings regarding it. They presented accurate teaching on the churches stance on birth control whch I was happy to hear that they fully endorse obedience in this. I had a few questions I was maybe unable to ask though about NFP. On average (i suppose it differs from woman to woman) how many days would one be fertile vs not fertile (or clearly not fertile) I thought I heard that if you were needing to space a pregnancy it would require troughly 10 days of abstinence a cycle?
Also I know almost nothing personally about sex, but what of during the period? Is it morally acceptable to have sex at all during the period? Is it possible or enjoyable. Not being a woman or married I have no clue. Seems like something I would think people would avoid and I know the Old Testament warned against lying with a woman during her period, and I am not even sure she would want to or the husband would want to. But I am just curious since if a couple were trying to space a pregnancy and they already were abstaining 10 days would that make roughly another 7 - 9 that they would abstain? Or are some of thefertile days during this time?
Just want to get my facts straight in the case I ever need to defend this teaching or (if God wills/allows it) use them in my own life.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Feb 14th, 2007 01:38 am |
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brian wrote: Also I know almost nothing personally about sex, but what of during the period? Is it morally acceptable to have sex at all during the period?
I will leave the rest of your questions to those with more specific knowledge (that is, women), but I can tell you that the Church has no moral objection to a husband and wife having intercourse at any time, as long as both are willing.
And being a married man who has had only one sex partner in my life, I can tell you that there is no such thing as sex that is not enjoyable, at least in my experience.
I will let the women speak for themselves.
Last edited on Wed Feb 14th, 2007 01:41 am by
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Ali
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Posted: Wed Feb 14th, 2007 10:16 am |
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I will boldy go there with you 
First of all, it is taught an average cycle is 28 days. Very seldom is that true with real women in real life. There is an excellent book called Taking Charge of Your Fertility by Toni Weschler. Dh and I practiced this, first to avoid pregnancy, then to get pregnant. This was before I was even interested in Catholithism.
I don't know how much you know, but the process involves tempuratue taking, and charting of your temps and changes in cervical fluid, and times of sexual intercourse. By looking at your chart over a given period of time, you can see how long your cycles are and when your fertile time is. There can be up to a 5 day window on either side of ovulating, that's your 10 days. If you are avoiding pregnancy, this is very important to remember. The long you chart, the more you can see, and the more comfortable it becomes.
If I'm remembering right -- you must take your temps at the same time every day before you get out of bed They are about the same every day, then on the day you ovulate they take a jump up and stay up until menses start. When you suspect your menses your temp will drop back down and you'll start to bleed. If you are pregnant, your temps will continue to rise and then level off at that high spot. They won't fall if you are pregnant, buy a pregnancy test.
You will know about 5 days before ovulation, not by temps, but by cervical fluid. It changes dramatically. The woman may also have tender breasts during this phase.
All this is to be noted on the chart. Any changes at all should be kept track of. Our bodies are so wonderful! I never realized how much I missed when I just popped a pill every morning.
IRT sex during menses, I think it's more of a personal choice as to what is enjoyable and what isn't. On a woman's heavier bleeding days, while it may be enjoyable to some, I can't grasp how. The mess factor me, personally. On lighter days, not such a big deal. For instance, a woman might bleed 2-3 days rather heavy, for for the last 2-3 days (depending on "normal" for the woman) it might be lighter, more of a discharge not actuall bleeding. KWIM?
It's also good to remember as a loving husband, that more than bleeding is involved with a woman's menstrual cycle. Cramps can be severe, her body can just be delicate and sore to touch. Especially her girl parts. And even bringing up intercourse may get you slugged.  Of course, that's probably her hormones working OT, as well. But seriously about the rest
Hope you found this helpful 
Ali
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Feb 14th, 2007 12:37 pm |
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Ali wrote: Especially her girl parts.
Thank God for those girl parts!
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brian
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Posted: Wed Feb 14th, 2007 02:01 pm |
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So it seems as if those wanting to avoid pregnancy on average are able to have intercourse roughly half of the time or slightly more or less depending on the woman. I suppose that this could be goood for the couple to sort of keep things exciting and to sort of share a spiritual discipline of fasting from something together.
It seems the more difficult thing would be determining when a couple avoiding pregnancy is doing so for valid reasons such as finance or health verses when maybe they are avoiding the responsibility. I mean, is NFP something the church wants people to use at their discretion (in avoiding pregnancy) or do they recommend that you only use it when you have a valid reason to want to avoid pregnancy.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Feb 14th, 2007 02:30 pm |
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brian wrote: So it seems as if those wanting to avoid pregnancy on average are able to have intercourse roughly half of the time or slightly more or less depending on the woman.
Another very critical advantage is that it teaches a couple that there are other ways to be intimate besides intercourse. A man becomes much more sensitive to his wife's body and her needs and can satisfy her emotional needs even when he cannot satisfy her physically.
Also, if you've ever given up something for Lent like chocolate, you know how good that first piece of chocolate is on Easter Sunday. Abstaining from sex for 10 days a month basically means there will be a honeymoon every month! A couple that looks at it creatively and lovingly can make each month an experience to remember, and well worth waiting for. After all, the emotional component of a relationship is infinitely more satisfying than the physical. That's why recreational sex is ultimately so empty and unfulfilling.
I firmly believe that a couple that practices NFP is much less likely to divorce because their relationship will be based on much more than sex.
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brian
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Posted: Wed Feb 14th, 2007 03:34 pm |
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So then what your telling me Rick, is that despite all I have learned over the years from TV, advertising, movies, people, and society at large that there is more to life and relationships than just sex. 
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Feb 14th, 2007 04:35 pm |
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brian wrote: So then what your telling me Rick, is that despite all I have learned over the years from TV, advertising, movies, people, and society at large that there is more to life and relationships than just sex.
Only the ones that are going to last longer than a TV season.  Or at least that's what women have always told me.
(I just use that dude smiley because I like to pretend sometimes that I have hair.)
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Ruthie
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Posted: Wed Feb 14th, 2007 07:35 pm |
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brian wrote:
It seems the more difficult thing would be determining when a couple avoiding pregnancy is doing so for valid reasons such as finance or health verses when maybe they are avoiding the responsibility. I mean, is NFP something the church wants people to use at their discretion (in avoiding pregnancy) or do they recommend that you only use it when you have a valid reason to want to avoid pregnancy.
______________
What about this part of Brian's question? What are valid reasons for avoiding pregnancy and using NFP?
Also, what if a couple feels that the wife is now too old to have any more children and her health might be in jeopardy should she become pregnant again. At the same time, NFP is difficult for them to use because her cycle is so irregular. What should they do in this case?
Last edited on Wed Feb 14th, 2007 07:39 pm by Ruthie
____________________
Truly I tell you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will never enter it. (NRSV, Luke 18:17)
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Feb 14th, 2007 08:33 pm |
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Ruthie wrote: brian wrote:
It seems the more difficult thing would be determining when a couple avoiding pregnancy is doing so for valid reasons such as finance or health verses when maybe they are avoiding the responsibility. I mean, is NFP something the church wants people to use at their discretion (in avoiding pregnancy) or do they recommend that you only use it when you have a valid reason to want to avoid pregnancy.
Sorry I neglected this part. A couple may prayerfully decide that it is not the right time for children for almost any reason other than pure selfishness.
They may want to wait a few years after marriage to have a chance to really get to know each other, or to finish their educations, or build a new business. Perhaps they feel that financially they are unable to support another child at this moment, or that it would be too much of a burden to have two in diapers at the same time. Any reason the couple feels would ultimately be in the best interest of the family is acceptable. However, the Church does not approve of the use of any method to prevent children (as in never having any), but postponing or spacing children is acceptable.
Selfish reasons would include a woman never wanting children so she doesn't "get fat" or a man not wanting to share his wife with a child, or the couple being unwilling to deal with the needs of a child in the middle of the night. Children are an ultimate purpose of marriage, and when they marry, the couple needs to be willing to accept children at an appropriate time in their marriage, and all that goes with them (body changes, sleepless nights, stretch marks, extra expenses, etc.).
(And no, I didn't mean that all women who have children end up getting fat, or even that I think pregnant women are fat, but I have heard that excuse before. My wife was never more beautiful than when she was pregnant.)
Also, what if a couple feels that the wife is now too old to have any more children and her health might be in jeopardy should she become pregnant again. At the same time, NFP is difficult for them to use because her cycle is so irregular. What should they do in this case?
The Church does not specifically address this problem, and it is a problem for some couples. I know several couples who have chosen different solutions including abstinence and medical assistance for cycle regulation. This is really something that needs to be addressed on a personal basis in consultation with a doctor and a spiritual advisor.
I know a young girl who is not sexually active but takes oral contraceptives because her periods are so intense that she literally cannot function for several days a month. The fact that the pills also cause her to be infertile are an unintended secondary consequence for a necessary medical treatment, and this is permitted by the Church. She is not married and not sexually active so it's really irrelevant, but even if she was married, her doctor would have recommended the same treatment and the Church's position would have been the same.
There are often Church teachings that are black and white, while the real world is in shades of grey. Ectopic pregnancies are a prime example. The Church teaches that abortion is never permissible in any circumstance, but in an ectopic pregnancy there is no way the child can be carried to term. Eventually the child will grow to a point that will rupture the tube, and kill both mother and child. The Church permits removing the affected area of the tube which will, of course, cause the child's death. In this case, removal of the tube is necessary to preserve the life of the mother; the death of the child is an unintended secondary consequence. If it is possible to save the life of the child, every effort must be made to do so, but that's not possible in a tubal pregnancy.
So while Church teaching represents ideal circumstances, the Church also recognizes that her teachings may not apply in all circumstances. Our obligation as Catholic Christians is to thoroughly study and understand what the Church teaches and why (called an informed conscience), and then apply that teaching to our own lives as best we can.
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mg57
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Posted: Wed Feb 14th, 2007 11:04 pm |
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Ruthie, Brian -
As a touchpoint for further discussion here and elsewhere, the United States Bishops (USCCB) have provided a helpful resource page for both those of us learning and teaching -
http://www.usccb.org/prolife/issues/nfp/cathteach.shtml
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mrsbmoo
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Posted: Sat Feb 17th, 2007 02:13 pm |
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I will give you another woman's perspective, Brian. I have used NFP off and on for almost 12 years, long before I became Catholic because it was reliable birth control while I was nursing. For us, it means abstaining about a week of the non-period time although as you learn your cycle well you learn where you can fudge. Yes, you really miss it that week but you also know it will end and you can attack each other. Anticipation is quite an aphrodesiac. As to period time, it is not for me, I just feel too yucky(like don't even touch me at all) but I have a good friend who feels the opposite so your future wife might be ok with this.
As to reasons I have tried to prevent pregnancy, I have had many different ones. Here are some:
Just had a baby and need time to build up my health(waiting 2 years between pregnancies is recommended to build your calcium and iron reserves back to normal levels)
Marriage was very unstable(1st husband was moving in and out to live with other women)
Just remarried to accusations that the only reason to marry at our age was because I was pregnant so we waited a year to prove them wrong and stablize the step parent relationship.
After this child I am carrying now, we will probably have no more. 5 kids on one income is a big burden(although a joyful one). As well, the older I get the more exhausting and hard on my health each pregnancy is. I can see the diiference just between 38 and 41. If my health is compormised then I can't mother my kids or competantly homeschool them which is important to me. So I think age is a fair factor, not because you fear a less than perfect child, but because you just don't bounce back like you did in your 20s and it effects your ability to give adequately to the other kids and believe me teens are high maintenance kids.
I think the church could be behind any one of these, none are inherently selfish.
____________________
Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 13 months and 17
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Br_Carlo
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Posted: Tue Feb 20th, 2007 09:45 am |
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God's peace. I have a question regarding the use of a small microscope-like gadget (sold under several names) that is advertised for the purpose of predicting fertile days. The device resembles a tube of lipstick and contains a 60X magnifier and an internal LED light. In use, a drop of saliva is collected when you get up and applied to the rear of the lens. When it dries, the pattern of salt crystals--if any--is used as a predictor of fertility.
Of course, such a device--if reliable--could be used as a predictor of infertile days. This is not even mentioned in the accompanying pamphlet, so I'm sure that it was never intended for NFP. I do know that there are dramatic changes in the salt content and viscosity of cervical mucus as ovulation approaches, but the idea that these salt changes are mirrored in the saliva was new to me.
Does anyone use this device, and, if so, have they found it reliable or even helpful? I bought one on eBay just so that I could familiarize myself with it (I am a biology teacher), but my wife and I are long past caring about such things . Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~
Last edited on Tue Feb 20th, 2007 09:46 am by Br_Carlo
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Ali
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Posted: Tue Feb 20th, 2007 11:22 am |
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Br_Carlo wrote: God's peace. I have a question regarding the use of a small microscope-like gadget (sold under several names) that is advertised for the purpose of predicting fertile days. The device resembles a tube of lipstick and contains a 60X magnifier and an internal LED light. In use, a drop of saliva is collected when you get up and applied to the rear of the lens. When it dries, the pattern of salt crystals--if any--is used as a predictor of fertility.
Of course, such a device--if reliable--could be used as a predictor of infertile days. This is not even mentioned in the accompanying pamphlet, so I'm sure that it was never intended for NFP. I do know that there are dramatic changes in the salt content and viscosity of cervical mucus as ovulation approaches, but the idea that these salt changes are mirrored in the saliva was new to me.
Does anyone use this device, and, if so, have they found it reliable or even helpful? I bought one on eBay just so that I could familiarize myself with it (I am a biology teacher), but my wife and I are long past caring about such things . Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~
I have heard of these, but I would not count them as reliable on their own. IMO/E, when you chart you are able to see your cycles on paper for months at a time. It is an invaluable resource. There is so much more going on inside me as to whether I have ovulated or not. My moods, body tenderness, hormones, sex drive, are all wrapped up in my cycles and charting. I would miss all that by checking my saliva.
A quick fix and a help, but not to do alone. My two cents
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beachmoss
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Posted: Thu Feb 22nd, 2007 01:11 am |
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Here is what I understand about intercourse during the period. In the days leading up to her period a woman's cervix begins to open. (Which is one way a woman can check her fertility.) While she is bleeding the cervix is open--hence she is open to bacterial contamination. That is my understanding of why it is prohibited in some cultures.
Personally, for me, it's the yuck factor. Who wants to clean up that mess?!
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