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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed May 9th, 2007 06:33 pm |
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Pope confirms excommunication of Mexican legislators who voted in favor of abortion Abortion in Mexico
Aboard the papal plane, May 9, 2007 / 03:54 pm (CNA).- In statements to journalists during his flight from Rome to Brazil, Pope Benedict XVI, in a reference to legislators in Mexico City who voted in favor of legalizing abortion in the Mexican capital, confirmed that the excommunication of those who procure an abortion “is nothing new” nor is it “arbitrary.”
According to various media reports, the Pontiff recalled that Canon Law stipulates the automatic excommunication for anyone who procures an abortion.
Several weeks ago, the Archdiocese of Mexico noted that doctors and nurses who participate in abortions, as well as lawmakers who support the legalization of abortion, incur latae sententiae excommunication.
The Holy Father explained, “This excommunication was not arbitrary, but rather it is permitted by canon law which says that putting the innocent to death is not compatible with receiving communion, which is to receive the body of Christ.”
In this sense, he reiterated that Catholic authorities “did not do anything new, surprising or arbitrary. They simply publicly announced that what is contained in the law of the Church (…) which expresses our appreciation of life and that human individuality, human personality, is present from the first moment of life.”
Likewise, he indicated that lawmakers throughout the world who vote in favor of abortion have “doubts about the value and beauty of life, and even doubt about the future.” “Selfishness and fear are at the root of (pro-abortion) legislation. We, in the Church, have a great struggle to defend life,” the pope added during the press conference that last some 25 minutes.
“The Church says that life is beautiful, it is not something to doubt but is a gift, even when one lives in difficult circumstances. It is always a gift,” he said.
The above article is reposted with permission from the Catholic News Agency.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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brian
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Posted: Wed May 9th, 2007 11:44 pm |
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did this bill pass to legalize abortion in mexico, or was this warning only issued to those who merely voted for it?
So is this saying that those who even vote for it are guilty of procuring an abortion? And if this worked and was enforced in Mexico then why would it not be enforced here as well?
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu May 10th, 2007 12:20 am |
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The recent act legalizes abortion in Mexico City — not throughout the country, but only in the Distrito Federal.
So is this saying that those who even vote for it are guilty of procuring an abortion? And if this worked and was enforced in Mexico then why would it not be enforced here as well?
Yes, you have interpreted Pope Benedict’s statement correctly. He is corroborating the Mexican bishops’ publication of the latae sententiae (automatic) excommunication, according to canon law, incurred by those legislators voting in favor of legalizing abortion.
Since the provision was inserted into canon law in 1983, it has always been understood in this manner by the Vatican, but the US bishops, for the most part, seem to be of another mind. Pope John Paul II and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith tried to build a fire under the US bishops over this issue, but they were ignored.
Now it appears that Pope Benedict is preparing to broach the topic again as he heads for Brazil, which country, like all of Latin America, is under heavy pressure from the UN and other groups to legalize abortion.
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu May 10th, 2007 01:01 am |
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brian wrote: And if this worked and was enforced in Mexico then why would it not be enforced here as well?
There was no vote in the United States to legalize abortion. It was an action taken by the Supreme Court in 1973 that legalized abortion nationwide. So most politicians can honestly say they have never voted to legalize abortion. That clouds the issue considerably. In Mexico the issue was much clearer, as an actual law was passed and legislators had the ability to vote for legalizing abortion or against it.
Most of the votes in the United States, at least on a national level, have been regarding the availability of abortion, not the legality of it, so a politican can honestly say doublespeak such as "I am against abortion but I believe if rich women have the option, poor women should, too."
My state of Louisiana passed a law last week that makes abortion illegal the instant Roe V. Wade is overturned, or a constitutional amendment protecting life is passed. There was only one abortion clinic open in Louisiana prior to Hurricane Katrina and as far as I've been able to determine, it has not reopened. So while abortion is technically legal here, it is impossible to obtain one. Thank God.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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BodRod
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Posted: Thu May 10th, 2007 01:25 am |
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| I'll believe the pope is serious about this when he takes on our doublespeaking politicians and judges!!! :X
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu May 10th, 2007 02:06 am |
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Pontiff's Comments on Pro-abortion Politicians Clarified
Aide: They Exclude Selves From Communion
ROME, MAY 9, 2007 (Zenit.org)- The Vatican clarified that Benedict XVI has not excommunicated Mexican politicians who supported the legalization of abortion in the country's capital -- rather, they have excluded themselves from Communion.
Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi, director of the Vatican press office, said this today in a statement he issued in wake of comments made by the Pope aboard his flight from Rome to São Paulo.
Reporters asked Benedict XVI if the Church had excommunicated the politicians of Mexico City who had voted to legalize abortion in the first trimester.
The Holy Father said that the excommunication for those promoting abortion is "nothing new, it's normal, it wasn't arbitrary. It is what is foreseen by the Church's doctrine."
The Pontiff also underlined that Christian politicians need to be consistent with their beliefs, and confirmed that the Church announces the Gospel of Life.
"The death of an innocent, of a newly born baby is inconceivable," the Pope added. "It is not something arbitrary and the Church expresses value for life and for the individual character of life from the moment of conception."
Father Lombardi, who was with Benedict XVI on the plane, clarified that neither the Pope nor the Mexican bishops had declared those politicians excommunicated.
The press office director explained that the Church teaches that the promotion of abortion is not compatible with the reception of Communion.
The journalists then asked the spokesman: "So, are they excommunicated"?
"No," Father Lombardi responded. "They excluded themselves from Communion."
The above article is reposted with permission from Zenit.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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JasPax
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Posted: Thu May 10th, 2007 09:39 am |
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Politicians and judgeswho support (and do not vote against) abortion have, in my opinion, excommunicated themselves. That includes a certin Speakere of the U.S. House of Representatives and a Republican Candidate for President (who donated money to Planned Parenthood) Although the latter has other problems too-like multiple marriages.
So, if they present themselves to receive the Eucharist, that is between them and God. I understand that.
I still have this question: How will a bishop or priest justify their action if they look up and recognize one of the aformentioned persons standing in front of them in the Communion line and they give them the Body of Christ? Is that bishop or priest (or deacon) complicit in the sin? I know they would not want to create a scene that the media would exploit. Tough call?
God's Blessings,
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James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu May 10th, 2007 10:19 am |
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The Vatican clarified that Benedict XVI has not excommunicated Mexican politicians who supported the legalization of abortion in the country's capital -- rather, they have excluded themselves from Communion.
Perhaps this has not been sufficiently understood by readers. I reiterated the point in my earlier post, but it may have been lost.
First, the bishops of Mexico did not excommunicate the legislators in question; they were already automatically excommunicated according to canon law. What the bishops did was publicly confirm the excommunication. Then the pope did the same thing: he confirmed an already existing excommunication.
The situation in the US is a little different. The bishops here have not confirmed the automatic excommunication of those politicians who consistently vote in favor of “abortion rights” legislation (usually funding bills and “rights” issues) and those judges who, to the extent that they have taken a public personal stand on the issue and have allowed that stand to influence their decisions, have violated the provision of canon law (specifically no. 1398; note that in the case of judges, they are bound by precedent in many decisions and so are not free to rule according to conscience, and it appears that many legislators feel the same about their own situation). It seems to be the understanding of the US bishops that because the canon’s wording is specific (“A person who actually procures an abortion…”) it does not apply to these politicians.
The bishops in Mexico, however, have seen the law as applying anyway because of Christ’s words concerning the fifth Commandment: “‘You shall not kill: and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment” (CCC Part 3, Section 2, Article 5, intro to §2258). CCC 2270 concludes: “Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person — among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.” It should be clear, then, that Catholic doctrine is broad enough to condemn moral and legal support of “abortion rights,” in whatever form they may take. However, the situation in the United States does not concur; here, the unborn are not legally recognized as “having the rights of a person.”
According to the official Catholic interpretation, to fail to protect unborn life on the ground that “somebody else” is doing the actual killing is morally tantamount to direct participation. Whether it is legally included in canon 1398, and therefore subject to the latae sententiae excommunication, is not so clear as this, even though it has been so interpreted by the Vatican. The real question here is not whether the US bishops are within their canonical rights in standing aloof but whether they are morally fulfilling their duties as bishops. They must grapple with the muddied legal situation in the US (civil law) and how it applies to those politicians who have to decide whether they are legally free, let alone obligated, to vote according to Catholic teaching.
I do not say that the US bishops are wrong; that is a question for the Vatican to decide. I do see, however, the reason why many Americans have been disappointed in their inaction, which has had enormous moral and material consequences.
David
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brian
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Posted: Thu May 10th, 2007 01:52 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote: The Vatican clarified that Benedict XVI has not excommunicated Mexican politicians who supported the legalization of abortion in the country's capital -- rather, they have excluded themselves from Communion.
Perhaps this has not been sufficiently understood by readers. I reiterated the point in my earlier post, but it may have been lost.
First, the bishops of Mexico did not excommunicate the legislators in question; they were already automatically excommunicated according to canon law. What the bishops did was publicly confirm the excommunication. Then the pope did the same thing: he confirmed an already existing excommunication.
This is confusing. Either they are or are not excommunicated. You are saying that they were not excommunicated by the bishops but that they stand automatically excommunicated by canon law?
what then of this quote?
The journalists then asked the spokesman: "So, are they excommunicated"?
"No," Father Lombardi responded. "They excluded themselves from Communion."
This clearly says that they are not excommunicated. So how are you affirming that they actually are excommunicated when Fr. Lombardi says that they are not excommunicated but simply not eligible for communion? Communion as in the Eucharist?
Wouldn't this just mean they are in a condiiton of serious sin and need to change and go to confession but are still members of the church? Or does it mean that 'excluding themselves from communion' means they are not longer members of the Catholic Church period?
Based on Fr. Lombardi's comments I would think that they are not excommunicated by their actions or the bishops. But that they are simply not allowed at the table.
Al;so you mentioned that ope John Paul and the VAtican attempted to put a fire under the US bishops but they mostly ignored it. How does church authority work in this matter. If the Vatican is upset with how US Bishops handle something can they do anything more and insist more stronlgy until they get what they want? I would think they could do more to usurp the authority of the bishops if they needed to. If they were truly unhappy why not force more action or more strongly suggest it until something happens? Might this still happen?
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu May 10th, 2007 02:24 pm |
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brian wrote: David W. Emery wrote: The Vatican clarified that Benedict XVI has not excommunicated Mexican politicians who supported the legalization of abortion in the country's capital -- rather, they have excluded themselves from Communion.
Perhaps this has not been sufficiently understood by readers. I reiterated the point in my earlier post, but it may have been lost.
First, the bishops of Mexico did not excommunicate the legislators in question; they were already automatically excommunicated according to canon law. What the bishops did was publicly confirm the excommunication. Then the pope did the same thing: he confirmed an already existing excommunication.
This is confusing. Either they are or are not excommunicated. You are saying that they were not excommunicated by the bishops but that they stand automatically excommunicated by canon law?
what then of this quote?
The journalists then asked the spokesman: "So, are they excommunicated"?
"No," Father Lombardi responded. "They excluded themselves from Communion."
This clearly says that they are not excommunicated.
No it doesn't. "Excommunicated" means "excluded from the communion." There was no formal act of excommunication from the bishops or the pope; they merely acknowledged that the acts of the politicians were voluntary acts of exclusion.
They excommunicated themselves. They must seek forgiveness for their act of exclusion before they may properly approach the sacrament.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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brian
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Posted: Thu May 10th, 2007 03:55 pm |
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So if one commits a mortal sin are thy at that point excommunicated?
And why did not the Father asnwer the question to say 'yes they are excommunicated by their own choice' Why did he answer no they are not excommunicated if in fact they are excommunicated? The reporter did not seem to ask, did the church formerly excommunicate them, he only asked if they were excommunicated and the answer was 'no.'
Seems like I need a clarification of the clarification, though I think I understand what you are saying, that by their actions they have excluded themselves from communion.
Brian
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu May 10th, 2007 04:16 pm |
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Brian, the spokesman was asked whether the legislators had been excommunicated by someone in the hierarchy (one or more bishops). The answer to that had to be No, because the legislators were excommunicated not by a bishop but by their own action, because it is a part of canon law. The spokesman was quite correct in what he said, but I can see that many, even among Catholics, would not understand it.
The point is that in a latae sentenciae excommunication, no action is necessary on the part of a bishop. The person excommunicates himself by violating a provision of canon law which specifies automatic excommunication as the penalty for a given act.
Now with regard to your additional question, “So if one commits a mortal sin are they at that point excommunicated?” — Not necessarily. The sin has to be one that is specified in canon law as incurring this penalty. There are very few of these, and abortion is by far the most common.
All sins that canonically incur latae sentenciae excommunication are mortal sins, but not all mortal sins incur excommunication. Excommunication is a legal exclusion from the sacraments (except penance), over and above the matter of mortal sin. Therefore, an excommunicated person must do not just one thing (receive the sacrament of penance) but a second thing as well (have the sentence of excommunication lifted) before he can again receive the sacraments. This means that absolution cannot be given until the bishop OKs it.
David
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BodRod
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Posted: Thu May 10th, 2007 04:40 pm |
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| It seems to me that if a person is still receiving the elements of communion they are NOT excommunicated!!! :X
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu May 10th, 2007 05:33 pm |
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BodRod wrote: It seems to me that if a person is still receiving the elements of communion they are NOT excommunicated!!! :X
When excommunication is automatic, without a formal, public declaration, no one can know whether the sin has been confessed and the excommunication lifted. An axe murderer may still receive communion, although to do so in a state of sin is blasphemy.
Many "cafeteria Catholics" have in fact excommunicated themselves through their actions and beliefs, and yet still receive communion. God will judge them accordingly.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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BodRod
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Posted: Thu May 10th, 2007 06:31 pm |
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Well, you got me there, Rick! I guess I should leave the judging to God.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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brian
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Posted: Fri May 11th, 2007 01:19 am |
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David W. Emery wrote: Therefore, an excommunicated person must do not just one thing (receive the sacrament of penance) but a second thing as well (have the sentence of excommunication lifted) before he can again receive the sacraments. This means that absolution cannot be given until the bishop OKs it.
David
So are you saying that all the lawmakers who voted abortion to be legal should as of now understand themselves to be excommunicated, and can not simply confess their sins and go back to communion but they should understand that they need a bishop to reinstate them into the church?
Would you say that they understand this?
Brian
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri May 11th, 2007 01:31 am |
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brian wrote: Would you say that they understand this?
When they present themselves for confession, the priest will tell them.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Katy
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Posted: Fri May 11th, 2007 09:17 pm |
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cajunrick wrote: My state of Louisiana passed a law last week that makes abortion illegal the instant Roe V. Wade is overturned, or a constitutional amendment protecting life is passed. There was only one abortion clinic open in Louisiana prior to Hurricane Katrina and as far as I've been able to determine, it has not reopened. So while abortion is technically legal here, it is impossible to obtain one. Thank God.
That is great!
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Lord, by Your cross and resurrection, You have set us free. You are the Savior of the World.
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