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Darlene
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Tue Jan 16th, 2007 10:13 pm |
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Hello Everyone,
Recently I was talking with my son who de-converted from Christianity into Atheism. I mentioned in the conversation that women in foreign countries such as Mexico, South America and Africa have no problem breast feeding in public. And then it went from breast feeding to nudity among cultures. We talked about the various tribes in South America and Africa that have no problem with being scantily clothed and that it is acceptable within their cultures. Yet in our westernized society, it would generally be perceived as being immoral and promiscuous to dress in public the way some of these tribes do among themselves. (or to openly breast feed in public the way women do in these cultures) We can even look at how much society has changed throughout the past several centuries. The way that we dress in our culture would never be acceptable within westernized cultures before the 20th Century. Has the general conscience of most societies been eroded or were those societies prior to the 20th Century too inhibited about their sexuality?
My son then made a comment - "So much for the universality of conscience." He, of course, was referring to the teaching on Adam and Eve and how after the fall, their eyes were opened and they became aware that they were naked and sewed fig leaves together to cover their nakedness. So how does that relate to so many cultures who throughout the centuries seem to not have a conviction about their nakedness?
I really didn't know what to say to my son. He is at the point of rejoicing each time he finds something that tends to disprove the Word of God. But honestly, I didn't have an answer for this one. And then there are the nudist colonies and nude beaches right here in our country and many western European countries. Why don't these folks suffer under the conviction of a universal conscience from the Fall of man? They seem not to have any problem with displaying their nudity in front of others.
I would appreciate your insightful comments on this one.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Esther
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Kansas City, Kansas USA |
| Posts: | 144 |
| First Name: | Esther | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist to Roman Catholic 11/26/06 |
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Posted: Tue Jan 16th, 2007 10:35 pm |
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Darlene,
I am sure you will receive a lot of insight here, but I thought I would throw in my two cents on this one. In school I run into a lot of arguments like this (professors and students alike). I have posed this thoughts a couple of times.
If there is no God there is certainly no moral law written on our hearts. But no matter what culture, no matter how remote, it would never be acceptable to be a coward. It is never acceptable to kill a loved one for no reason. It is never acceptable for a woman to have an affair nor for a man to have an affair with a married woman. There is a natural desire for all of us to be loved (I found this to be the most effective). There is a natural desire for us to have sexual relations. There is also a natural desire to appreciate the beauty in nature.
There is a moral law written on our hearts. We all have a desire for order and structure.
Your son is in my prayers.
God bless,
Esther
Last edited on Tue Jan 16th, 2007 10:36 pm by Esther
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mg57
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Tolland County, Connecticut USA |
| Posts: | 169 |
| First Name: | mg57 | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Infant Baptised Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Jan 16th, 2007 11:13 pm |
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Darlene -
While your son evidently rejects religion, God has innumerable ways to Himself. Perhaps others can expand on this, but while having a conscience, to varying degrees, is universal, conscience needs to be formed. The universal conscience is often referred to as Natural Law, or, moral law, principals of human conduct.
Mortimer J. Adler explains it this way, -
Most people are confused by the use of the term "natural law." They understand what the laws of nature are -- we learn these when we study the natural sciences. But some writers use the term "natural law" in the singular as if it had something to do with matters of right and wrong, almost as if it were the voice of conscience. It is hard for most to understand how a natural law has anything to do with moral matters.
For the sake of brevity, please see -
http://www.radicalacademy.com/adlernatorpos.htm
Mortimer J. Adler was a philosopher, editor of the Encyclopedia Britannica, co-creator of The Great Books Program now in use in many high schools and universities, who converted to the Catholic Church in his later years, -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortimer_Adler
Hope this is enough to wet your whistle  .
God bless.
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5080 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Tue Jan 16th, 2007 11:15 pm |
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Darlene wrote: I mentioned in the conversation that women in foreign countries such as Mexico, South America and Africa have no problem breast feeding in public.
I personally don't have a problem with women breast feeding in public. It can be done discretely, and the momentary exposure of a nipple should not offend anyone. There is quite a difference between a woman naturally providing nourishment to her child and "public nudity" in my opinion. I do see a great difference between exposing a nipple in order to feed a child, and stripping to the waist.
As you mentioned, it is quite common in European beaches for women to expose their breasts, just as men do. I prefer a more modest behavior and would not want my wife to expose herself in that manner, but frankly I think going topless would probably be less titillating than the thongs and string bikinis currently in fashion that leave absolutely nothing to the imagination.
Morality is a learned behavior. That's why a French president had both his wife and his mistress at this funeral. That doesn't make it right, just "acceptable". Fifty years ago divorce was virtually unheard of, and if a girl got pregnant without being married she was sent away to bear her child. We had one girl in my senior class in high school who got pregnant, and she disappeared at the Christmas break and we never saw her again. (She went to live with family out of state, had the child and gave it up for adoption, then went on to live in that area where her "shame" was not known).
Today in the U.S., it's not unusual for a girl to be pregnant in the eighth grade or even earlier and to continue to attend school. Many high schools and middle schools in the United States even offer day care!
In Muslim countries which follow Sharia (I think that's how it's spelled) law strictly, a woman cannot expose her ankles, wrists, or anything in between, or she can be killed. A single woman who gets pregnant also faces the death penalty.
Some African tribes practiced cannibalism at one time (and maybe some still do), and various cultures have practiced human sacrifice and even infanticide. We practice infanticide in the "developed world" today, but we call it abortion.
There is no such thing as "universality of conscience". There is the Natural Law which God has written on our hearts, but even that can be deformed through the improper formation of conscience. That's why we need the Church to tell us what is morally proper.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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