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brian
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| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Wed Mar 7th, 2007 02:32 pm |
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So even though I am trying to distance myself from all the end times craze of my baptist circles, there is one thing in the news that really does trouble me. That of a computer chip being developed to monitor us and our money. This is happening and may very well be asked to be received in our head or arm exactly like what it says in revelation 13. Now I am enjoying much diferent interpretations of revelation than the end times prophetic puzzles. But this looks exactly like what the text warns about. If such a technology was going to be forced on us, how would we know if it were the mark of the beast or not? And it may happen in my lifetime. I will be so terrified to receive it and maybe even refuse to the point of death, yet part of me thinks it will really be a coincidence that the bible warned about it and that it really has nothing to do with this bible passage. Would you receive one?
Also, there is a lot of factors at play I believe heading us toward a one world government. I hope this never happens, but if it does I hope the church will not take part in it but rather be persecuted by it. Still the last few popes seem to be often speaking on a need for unity and such. I really hope that because of our moral positions on things like the divinity of Christ and abortion and homosexuality and others we will never fit in to such a system, yet we are so ecumenical i worry that what if the wrong bishops were in power, could they not cleverly word things so that we somehow did fit in with other governments and religions? I suppose the answer to to trust the church and Christs promise to us in Matthew. Still, there is a lot out there that troubles me.
What did Benedict exactly mean by this quote which calls for world unity? How far would he take it? One of my problems with the church has been its histroy of being so politically involved, and I think that world power and the kingdom of God need to be isolated from one another in most cases.
"A united humanity will be able to confront the many troubling problems of the present time: from the menace of terrorism to the humiliating poverty in which millions of human beings live, from the proliferation of weapons to the pandemics and the environmental destruction which threatens the future of our planet," he said. "Do not fear; put your trust in him! The life-giving power of his light is an incentive for building a new world order based on just ethical and economic relationships," he said, speaking in Italian.
I really wish he would not use the phrase "new world order" I think He meant more a new way of living or of ethical views rooted in love and peace. But using that term sounds scary to me. What does he mena by that phrase. And I will add, that I do love and trust and admire the last two popes. I just find this subject scary, especially when I see quotes using the same phrase like this:
"No one will enter the New World Order unless he or she will make a pledge to worship Lucifer. No one will enter the New Age unless he will take a LUCIFERIAN Initiation." (David Spangler, Director of Planetary Initiative, United Nations)
Am I a bit paranoid. perhaps. But I am troubled and I hope that my question will be taken somewhat seriously instead of just considered foolishness. These coincidences do exist and are frightening to me, especially those of the mark we may be forced to receive, United Nations, and the potential role of the church.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Mar 7th, 2007 11:56 pm |
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There is one thing in the news that really does trouble me. That of a computer chip being developed to monitor us and our money. This is happening and may very well be asked to be received in our head or arm exactly like what it says in Revelation 13.
I tend to look on this interpretation of scripture the same way as I do the hoopla about the so-called Rapture. Its source is not the Holy Spirit but ordinary human imagination making the plausible seem real.
That said, there is a real danger of someone working up an electronic implant to control human behavior and thus control the world. There exist people who would do just that if they could. But I don’t see how this is necessarily included in the bible. God has no need to tell us of the latest and most sophisticated weapons of the devil, because the world is passing away and ultimately the devil cannot win.
A monopolistic world government could also eventually come about. If and when it does, there will surely be both martyrs and collaborators among Christians, just as there are today. We have a dress rehearsal of it in the recent Communist regimes and other totalitarian schemes, such as Hitler’s Germany.
But since when does the devil have a monopoly on the phrase “new world order”? Look at the end of the book of Revelation, chapter 21, where it speaks of “a new heaven and a new earth.” Is this not the same vision, but in reverse? Where do you think the truth is most likely to be found?
Am I a bit paranoid?
Coincidences are not God’s reality; he makes everything fit, and he is the ruler of all creation. Why, then, do you worry?
David
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brian
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| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Thu Mar 8th, 2007 12:40 am |
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It is hard for me to believe that it would be a coincidence myself. In any case, My question to you, is if in the near future such a chip were required of us, would you allow yourself to accept it? Obviously it would depend on the circumstances, but I just do not think I could allow myself to do that.
As far as the church, it was my hope that we will not personally endorse or be a part of a one world government scheme.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Mar 8th, 2007 01:37 am |
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My question to you, is if in the near future such a chip were required of us, would you allow yourself to accept it? Obviously it would depend on the circumstances, but I just do not think I could allow myself to do that.
Nor I. But as I indicated, there will always be those who choose otherwise.
As far as the church, it was my hope that we will not personally endorse or be a part of a one world government scheme.
I mentioned in another thread that our beloved John Paul II always affirmed the right of peoples to self government. This was his view both within the Church and in civil society. Still, I think it is clear from past history and from what we know of human weaknesses and faults that there will be both martyrs and collaborators if what you fear ever comes to pass.
David
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brian
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Thu Mar 8th, 2007 12:37 pm |
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| Martyrs and collaborators i can accept. What I am hoping for assurance in is that the church herself will not officially endorse nor be an official part of nor force any of her members to participate in such a thing, even if say it was a part of some peace treaty of something. especially if that were the case actually. I could accept maybe some priests or bishops going along with it and many of the lay people. But not the pope or an official decree from Rome.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Mar 8th, 2007 01:56 pm |
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The Church cannot force me to do anything. It is infallible in matters of faith and morals, not the insertion of computer chips.
The only type of chip I can imagine allowing to be inserted into my body would be one containing my medical information, and then only if I have access to that information myself and can control what is contained and how it is retrieved. (I've had a couple of heart attacks and can see the advantage of being wheeled into an emergency room somewhere unconscious, and the doctors having access to my medical records.)
People claimed social security numbers were the "mark of the beast" 70 years ago, and they were calling it something else before that. A hundred years from now, they'll be calling it something else.
Don't let the "conspiracy theory" whackos spook you.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Thu Mar 8th, 2007 02:41 pm |
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| it is not them this time so much as the fact that something that is looking to unite world governemnts is also pushing the idea of a mark or something we will receive in our head or arm which is pretty close to what the bible warns about, more or less. I mean, I agree that people have been overly looking at such things for a long time, but this does not take a whacko to see that there are some interesting things to notice. Besides which the government is finding more ways to spy on citizens all the time and enforce beliefs on homosexuality and banning religious expression in certain countries. I am not crazy, but there truly is a lot of creepy stuff lurking at this time. I am not gong to claim it means the end of all things is imminent necessarily, just that I think is good to maintain a healthy suspicion.
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mrsbmoo
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
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| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | former Methodist. RCA, Presbyterian, Holiness, Wesleyan... Catholic as of June ... |
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Posted: Fri Mar 9th, 2007 04:58 pm |
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To Brian,
Although I think we should be wary about too much government control regardless of whether there is one world government or 5000, I think this fear of one world government is a protestant concept related to the idea of the rapture. I live in the town next to Jerry Falwell's territory and as a spokesman for Protestantdom, he declares that global warming, cooperation with the UN and many other political issues are all about "the endtimes" I am not so convinced. I mean the UN is evil but homeland security suspending our civil rights is OK? If any government department has the potential for becoming the next Gestapo it is this one. The UN is somewhat ineffective by its nature. It is trying to represent the views of many many countires, not just ours. Think also how the world must have looked at the time of the Roman empire. Pretty much for those in Europe this was one world government and although there were no microchips, you certainly had to work within the Roman government system to get anywhere.
As to a microchip, already we are pretty much "marked" by our social security number and fingerprints. I was fingerprinted in college by the government because I worked as an intern in a Social Security Office. Everytime I cash a child support check, I am fingerprinted by the bank. My social security number is tied to my driver's license, bank accounts, credit cards, children's birth certificates and job history. Without one, I can't rent, own, have a phone, electricity, drive or work. If you are looking for the number of the beast purely by the quality of not being able to buy or sell without it, the social security number is pretty suspicious.
Then of course there is the issue that the Bible clearly states that governments are put in place by the permissive will of God and we are expected to cooperate unless it expressly contradicts God's law. So if one world government comes into being God has allowed it for some purpose. Trying to analyze the permissive will of God could take the rest of your life.
To Rick-
I was just reading in this month's reader's digest that they are developing a dog tag micro chip that can carry a soldier's medical records and be inserted into a hand held device to update these records as the patient is treated or tranferred to a different facility. I think it sounds great, I mean if you were unconsious and couldn't tell anyone info, they could know all about your medical past to better help you.
And on the note of silly government rules, my husband recently was told that OSHA required him to wear a necklace saying he was diabetic and what meds he took. OSHA also has a rule that no one can wear a necklace, bracelet or ring in the factory. So he ordered a necklace that he can't/must wear. 
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Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 13 months and 17
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Mar 9th, 2007 06:26 pm |
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mrsbmoo wrote: And on the note of silly government rules, my husband recently was told that OSHA required him to wear a necklace saying he was diabetic and what meds he took. OSHA also has a rule that no one can wear a necklace, bracelet or ring in the factory. So he ordered a necklace that he can't/must wear.
Welcome to the world of OSHA! 
The dog tags are a good idea but what if, like your husband, he's not permitted to wear it? An implantable chip would always be available and never need to be put on or taken off, but who knows who can access that information? Those credit cards you just have to wave at the gas pump or cash register can be easily cloned by people standing next to you.
I'm a security fanatic. My email is processed through two anti-virus systems before it gets to me and gets checked again; my Internet connection runs through three firewalls, etc. I regularly check (at http://grc.com) to make sure my computer cannot be even detected on the Internet, much less accessed from outside. I keep my wireless network so secure that sometimes I can't even get in! Unfortunately, I have enough computer knowledge to know just how vulnerable we all are, and I am truly paranoid about it.
So I guess when the implantable chips become a reality, I'll have to see exactly how they work. I'll probably want one that will only work if I am squeezing my own big toe while they're trying to access it! 
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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