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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
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| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Sat Nov 4th, 2006 02:49 pm |
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Greetings in Christ Everyone!
This morning I was thinking about some of the anti-Catholic influences that have had an effect on my views and understanding of the Catholic faith. I think it is important for me to identify these influences that have prevented me for many years from investigating the Catholic faith. For so long, Catholicism was just not an option because I thought it contained so much erroneous doctrine, that it would lead me further away from Jesus.
I was raised in an atheist/agnostic home, but my grandmother definitely had a bias against Catholics. She used to tell me not to trust my Catholic friends because they can lie or cheat anytime they want to and the priest will forgive them. Of course, she didn't have anything good to say about Protestants either, being the hardcore atheist that she was. Most of my friends while growing up were Catholic, and while they didn't "push" Catholicism on me, they did encourage me to become Catholic. One friend gave me a Catholic cross, another suggested I buy a rosary (which I did) but never taught me how to pray the Holy Rosary. I went to Mass one Sunday with a Catholic friend, but felt so awkward not knowing what to do, should I cross myself now, should I genuflect, should I kneel now, should I stand, etc. that I felt left out.
But the real negative influence began when I first accepted Christ into my life and began following Him in a para-church youth organization. The leader of this ministry called Catholics "R.C's" and encouraged us to evangelize outside of Catholic high schools. Many of these Catholics left the Catholic faith and became Evangelicals. It was in this group that I was taught that transubstantiation is a false doctrine of the Catholic Church. Oddly though, the leader did believe that miracles were done in Mary's name and admitted he couldn't explain it.
However, that which most influenced me not to consider the Catholic faith were ex-Catholics themselves. Many in the youth group that I first belonged to were former Catholics and VERY antagonistic against Catholicism. Then, as I attended other Protestant churches, I met more ex-Catholics who spoke negatively about Catholicism. This morning, a realization began to set in that so many of my friends and Christians that I have known are former Catholics. My closest, and dearest friend is a former Catholic. A close male friend of our family is an ex-Catholic. He has spoken very badly about his Catholic upbringing. My sister-in-law left the Catholic Church and is now an Episcopalian. The church she attended with her husband and my mother-in-law until recently, had a "gay" priest who left his wife for a male lover. A nother close friend of my husband's who left Catholicism and became an Evangelical spoke vehemently against the Church. He had attended Catholic schools all the way through high school and became a zealous advocate in refuting what he called Catholic heresy. We no longer see this man because he has become so judgmental and critical of almost all Christians, whether they be Protestant or Catholic.
Needless to say, I wondered about these former Catholics and why they became opponents of the faith of their upbringing. I considered that it must be because there really is something seriously wrong with Catholicism. Why else would there be so many who leave the Catholic Church, and all with pretty much the same complaints? The following are just some of their frustrations and complaints that caused them to flee Catholicism.
1. They never had a personal relationship with Christ. In other words, they never knew who Jesus was, just religious notions about Him.
2. They thought confession did nothing for them. All the priest ever told them to do was say so many "Hail Marys" and "Our Fathers" and that would take care of everything. Then they came to realize that they didn't need to go to a priest to be forgiven of their sins. God would directly forgive them.
3. The Catholic Church always wanted money from its members and if you were poor, they really didn't care. You still had to tithe what they told you to tithe or you wouldn't be priveleged to participate in any of the sacraments.
4. Most nuns in Catholic school were cruel and were not examples of Christian love or joy. In fact, most of them seemed to be miserable.
5. Catholicism was just a religion with a bunch of rules that didn't change a person's heart toward God.. Therefore, Catholics didn't really live their faith and just went to church on Sunday, went to Confession when they were told to or when they felt like it, and pretty much lived the way worldly people do.
6. Of course, they had plenty of insults toward the Pope, but I won't go into that here.
There are more things I could add to this list, but I think you get the general idea. So I am left with wondering why it is that so many former Catholics are angry/bitter/against the Catholic Church. I think the things I heard over the years kept me from ever finding the truth out for myself.
But one of the biggest concerns I have now is that I really and truly do not want to be deceived. I heard so many times from these ex-Catholics that they were so happy to have left Catholicism and be set free from heresy, lies and deception. Afterall, one might think, who could know better than a former Catholic and is here to warn me against it?
Again, as always, I welcome your input. Please be patient with me. I truly am seeking to understand the Catholic faith with a renewed vision and interest, and leave all those negative influences behind.
In Christ's Love,
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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mg57
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Tolland County, Connecticut USA |
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| First Name: | mg57 | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Infant Baptised Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Nov 4th, 2006 11:41 pm |
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Hi Darlene -
What I find quite remarkable, is that in spite of all these obstacles, you are still drawn to the faith !
While I can't give you a thoughtful response to the points on your list at this time, if you haven't already, you might find it helpful to go through the archived audios of past Journey Home programs on EWTN.
http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=-6892289&T1=The+Journey+Home
In my experience, just for one example, most of the people who would agree with the objections cited in your list, perhaps were never really aware, - in a meaningful way, of how much scripture one is exposed to within the 3 yr. cycle of Sunday and daily Liturgical readings, not to mention the Liturgy of the Hours, which has been especially encouraged since the close of Vatican II over 40 years ago.
I'm sure you'll get some good responses from others here, - hopefully I'll have more time to put in my 2 cents a little later.
God Bless !
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Saint Wanna Be
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| Joined: | Thu Oct 26th, 2006 |
| Location: | Oxford, Mississippi USA |
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Posted: Sun Nov 5th, 2006 09:20 am |
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Darlene, the most important thing I could say to you is "one, holy, and apostolic faith". When Jesus started His Church, He knew it would face the gates of hell. He told the parable of the wheat growing with the tares and at the end of the world the angels would harvest the wheat and the tares would be burned.
"One", this is the Church Jesus began, with all of its foibles and sinful people, me included, she is still unified and HE is still with her. He said He would be with her till the end. Jesus said this! I don't care how many nuns or priests or lays people do horrible things, Jesus said to take heart, "In this world you will have trouble, but take heart, I have overcome the world." John 16:33 For every tare, or bad priest, there are 1000 good ones who love God and His people. You never hear about these because that's not news.
"Holy", We are a set apart people. The Church is holy unto God. Yes, their are tares, but their is also beautiful wheat. Jesus said His Church would not fail. He told Peter to feed His sheep. Jesus knew she would be hungry. Your hunger and mine attest to our Lord's words. My hunger has never been more abated than by mycoming in to the Catholic Church. I went from burger king to a Banquet. I have one very close friend who was raised Catholic and left the Church in his late teens. The more I talk to him about it, the more I realize he never truly knew what the Catholic Church teaches. His ignorance can be blamed on bad teachers, or it could be that he was a bad learner. He is now learning things from our talking together that he never knew. He told me the other day that he is starting to miss Liturgy. I will give you another quote by Archbishop Sheen, "There may be 100 people who hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they THINK is the Catholic Church".
"Apostolic" When Jesus told the apostles they had the power to forgive sin, He breathed the Holy Spirit on them. This is when he instituted the sacrament of reconciliation. Confessing to a priest is not something that just any man thought up, the Son of Man gave this to us. He sent the apostles out, and they laid hands on others and sent them. Every priest, bishop and cardinal can trace their apostolic succession back to one of the twelve apostles. That is amazing! (Don't forget the parable of the wheat and tares.)
"Faith", this is what it comes down to Darlene, you must reason all the facts and hear all the arguments etc... But at some point you have to ask God what He wants you to do. If He wants you to be a Catholic, then by faith and by His grace, run, don't walk.
Peace,
Keith
____________________
St.W.B.
In the Eucharist We find Emmanuel
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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Posted: Sun Nov 5th, 2006 01:58 pm |
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Something that I have repeatedly witnessed, Darlene, is that ex-Catholics are among the most vituperative enemies of the Catholic Church. My belief is that it has to do with the fact that the Church belongs to God, and they, by distancing themselves from it, are taking the devil’s part. There is no charity in their assessment; in their new environment they are still not true Christians. For the most part, they have no idea that this could be true, so how are we to judge them?
In contrast, you will note that when people become Catholic, they do not condemn their former religion. The old way may be “mistaken,” but never “evil to the core.” Its adherents may be “lacking in understanding,” but never outright “damned.”
There is no doubt that ex-Catholics do influence those around them. I have dealt with persons who have been so influenced, and they are full of misinformation and half truths. What does this tell us about the ex-Catholics? That they did not know their religion at all. What they later embrace is in reaction to their lack of knowledge, and it seldom shows a true approach to God even then.
What then? Were they not taught? In some cases, sadly, they were not. What they were taught came from those around them, blind guides of the blind. But in many cases, they were indeed taught but rejected it all as “irrelevant” — meaning that they “had no use” for God in any case. If later they experience a conversion in evangelical fashion, they use this to “prove” how useless Catholicism is, when in reality it only proves that they themselves have learned a thing or two along the way and are at long last ready to make room for God in their lives — which even then may not be godly because they are often being accepted on their own terms. The word “obedience” does not appear in their vocabulary.
Even now I do not want to condemn ex-Catholics. I believe most of them have been swindled of their heritage by the sinful folk who, directly or indirectly, taught them. Bad Catholics are by far the greatest dissuader from entering or remaining in the Church.
As to the objections ex-Catholics offer, I offer the following observations. Please keep in mind that, hard as my words may be, I do not mean them to be a condemnation. They are for the most part an analysis of the “psychology of belief,” and do not consider the individual mitigating circumstances of the ex-Catholic. In truth, I believe many of these souls have not sinned mortally in leaving; they have been, as I say, swindled of their faith by the sins of those around them.
They never had a personal relationship with Christ. True. And on the face of it, this is a valid reason for leaving. On the other hand, I have seen many of these ex-Catholics leave because they wanted to sin, and this is the reason they never knew Christ. (Again, I caution, this is not condemnatory. After all, where did they learn to sin? How cognizant were they of their condition? And so I intend the rest of these comments.)
They thought confession did nothing for them. True. But again, were they really repentant of their sins? Most of the ex-Catholics I know never really wanted to quit sinning. And what they like about their new religion (or lack of religion) is that they aren’t expect to reform; salvation is automatic once they recite the sinner’s prayer or explain away sin as some sort of psychosis. Also, you see the superficiality of their own childhood approach. Of course they didn’t need a priest! They didn’t need real forgiveness, either. It was all play-acting, or so it seemed. But are they any better off now?
The Catholic Church always wanted money from its members and if you were poor, they really didn't care. You still had to tithe what they told you to tithe or you wouldn’t be privileged to participate in any of the sacraments. As a bald statement, this is just false. Canon law forbids it. As an illustration of feelings of frustration felt by poor people, it scapegoats the Church while ignoring the real reasons for poverty. It also indicates a preocupation with money and the things it can buy — in other words, materialism.
Most nuns in Catholic school were cruel and were not examples of Christian love or joy. In fact, most of them seemed to be miserable. Since I am a convert, I was not raised in a Catholic school system. Those who have had that experience have told me two contrasting stories:
Those who have preserved their faith uniformly praise the sisters for their genuine charity, even as they maintained strict order in the classroom. They loved school and respect the fact that they were taught in a manner far superior to what they would have experienced in a public school.
Those who have left the Church almost universally admit that, if the school was orthodox, the values they were taught at home were in conflict with what was taught at school. Given that the home environment is usually the stronger influence, it is understandable if the children adopt their parents’ attitude. Generally, too, there was a grade and behavior problem, and the sisters would be viewed from that perspective: “They didn’t let me do what I wanted.” If, however, the school was, like so many after the Second Vatican Council, full of fluff and heterodoxy — well, no wonder! What are we to expect if they claim that a Catholic education did them little good? The quicker we reform those schools the better.
Catholicism was just a religion with a bunch of rules that didn’t change a person’s heart toward God. Then they stopped listening about the fourth grade. Or, in some unfortunate cases, even when older they were being taught as if they were still in the fourth grade. Mostly, however, I see the influence of stock Evangelical rhetoric here.
They had plenty of insults toward the Pope. This is the result of their indoctrination into evangelicalism or secularism. They don’t realize just how far off the mark their mentors are, and because of their inner antagonism, they aren’t going to investigate for themselves. I was one of those few from the other side who, upon hearing disparaging remarks about the pope, did see fit to investigate. This had an influence when I came to the point where I had to decide where I belonged.
I heard so many times from these ex-Catholics that they were so happy to have left Catholicism and be set free from heresy, lies and deception. Indeed, this is how it appears to them. An outsider, however, no matter what his own persuasion, could very well perceive that, being “set free” really means being allowed to pursue their own agenda and will. If you check out Satan’s vocabulary, you will find that he, too, styles the truth as “heresy, lies and deception.” This should be a no-brainer.
So I think, Darlene, that it all comes down to contrasting viewpoints. Few converts to Catholicism notice the Catholic Church showing up on the radar screen until late in the game, when all other options have been exhausted. Why? Because it “just can’t be” the truth. Blindness.
Contrariwise, when one wants what he wants so badly that he will not accept faith and charity, the Catholic Church is the first to go because it is the big ogre standing in the way of “freedom” and “happiness.” Much of this has to do with the “blindness” referred to by Jesus in his disputes with the Jews (cf. Matthew 15:13–14; 23:16–22; John 9:40–41).
Jesus also said, “Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid” (John 14:27). This is my message to you, Darlene: do not let your heart be troubled over these things. You have been given your eyesight and can see for yourself how the evil one twists everything.
David
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Saint Wanna Be
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Posted: Sun Nov 5th, 2006 06:12 pm |
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Darlene, there was one point in my "One" thing I would say that I left out. "One, Holy, CATHOLIC, and Apostolic faith.
Catholic:
Catholic means universal. Jesus said to the apostles to go into ALL the world. It was not just for the jews that He came. There are over 1 Billion catholics in the world. Every tongue, every race. You can go into any Catholic church anywhere in the world and whether you speak the language or not, you will KNOW what is going on. You will be in COMMUNION! ( If you are confirmed in the Church) His Church, that He started. Go deep into the teaching of the Church and you will find your Home.
Peace,
Keith
____________________
St.W.B.
In the Eucharist We find Emmanuel
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mrsbmoo
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
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| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | former Methodist. RCA, Presbyterian, Holiness, Wesleyan... Catholic as of June ... |
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Posted: Sun Nov 5th, 2006 10:50 pm |
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Let me give you the perspective of my husband who was brought up Catholic, left the church, became a baptist (very active, a deacon) and then re-entered the church this year.
During the time he was growing up(late 60s to late 70s) the church had the tendency to poorly teach the faith to the kids. The Bible was forbidden and the reason given for beliefs was the church says so. A really vibrant youth worker was fired and the reason seemed to be that he had shown young teens the Bible. My husband as a 14 year old felt if there was no reason to back up church rules that anybody could explain and the Catholic church was only one real Christian church(which he had been taught), then there was no God. He lived as a hedonist for about 5 years. At 19 he was in the Navy and visited the family of a friend. The family dragged him to a Baptist Church and he "was saved". OK, no overnight dramatic lifestyle conversion but he started trying to live better and reading his Bible. When his father died he was forced to leave the Navy and care for his Mom(deathbed promise). He became very active in the Baptist church where he attended until shortly before he met me 12 years later. He had become disillusioned with it because decisions were being made because of who had money in the church and who had been attending there the longest, not what would serve God best. I attended a Wesleyan church which I was also disillusioned with because it was becoming less and less of a worship service and more of an entertainment event with applause and little audience contribution. I only continued to go because I felt my kids should not get the idea it was OK n9ot to attend church. My husband works second shift and he would watch TV when he got home to unwind. He began to watch EWTN at night after I was asleep and discovered he had not really ever understood what the Catholic church was about. Long story, we are both now Catholics as well as my 3 daughters from my previous marriage and our toddler.
In Summary,
1. Did he have no personal relationship with Christ when he was first Catholic? Absolutely not, he had no real understanding of what the church believed and only practiced a very superficial faith as a child.
2. Did confession do anything for him? No, it was just a ritual to someone who doesn't understand it or really understand sin.
3. He never had any money issues with the church because he was a child.
4. He agrees some nuns were mean but he had a lot of non-nun teachers who were mean too. There are bad apples in every lot.
5. Yes, for him it was just a bunch of rules. Not because the Church was wrong, but because he was not turning his heart toward God. I have met evangelicals for whom it is just empty words too, worldly and sinful as atheists.
6. He had no feeling about the Pope either way. His family did call the tail on a roasted chicken "the pope's nose" but I don't think they meant it as an insult. LOL
Yes, I think the church failed him when he was young. If he had truly been taught what the church believed he might not have spent 5 years as a hedonist. But some of the fault lies with him. He didn't want to submit his will to God, he didn't want to make the effort to seek God in the ways he did know. I am certain God would have met him where he was and eventually did.
In my experience though, I have met just as many people hurt by Protestant churches in the same way the people you met were hurt by the Catholic church. My own children, while protestant were taunted by their evangelical classmates about how their parents were going to Hell because they had divorced and re-married. This stigmatized them when they had no control over it. I was given the cold shoulder in my evangelical church when my verbally abusive adulterous husband left me for another woman. It was implied both that I had driven him to it and that I was now after every other man in the church. I have met people who tell the story of how protestant preachers had locked the doors in their church until the collection plate was as full as they felt it should be. A woman in my Sunday school class was telling us this morning how she had worked in a doctor's office where she was the only Catholic. The other people there had berated and harassed her everyday about how she was going to Hell because she was Catholic. She ended up quitting. There are people who want to use their religion to hurt and control others in every sort of church. I don't think we become Catholic because we were hurt by other churches. Honestly, I had never even considered the Catholic church even though I had been searching for "the right church" for years. I had always felt it was like race, you were just born there or you weren't. I was wrong about that.
I have found the Catholic Church to be much more welcoming than any protestant church I have attended. I was Baptist, Methodist and Reformed as a child, Presbyterian, non-denominational, Pentecostal and Wesleyan as an adult. I have felt more a part of my Catholic parish in the 18 months I have attended than I did in all the years I spent in these other places. They never judged me for being divorced, they welcomed my participation right away whether I wanted to become Catholic or not. I was never pressured to join. I go to church with people who sincerely love God's word, pray fervently, love children(no trophy children here) and love their Pastor. Our Pastor is good friends with the Baptist minister across the street, takes part in the town ministerial association (which includes Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, and Espiscopalians) and volunteers as fire chaplain and police chaplain to serve the community. I think the animosity between protestants and Catholics is all to common especially when someone has been hurt but hardly the norm. As such, the fact that there are bitter people who have left that church means little in terms of whether it is the right church for you. Just my 2 cents!
____________________
Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 7 months and 16
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Nov 5th, 2006 11:51 pm |
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mrsbmoo wrote: During the time he was growing up(late 60s to late 70s) the church had the tendency to poorly teach the faith to the kids. The Bible was forbidden and the reason given for beliefs was the church says so.
Sorry, but I can't let this go without correction. I'm a little older than your husband, but I spent 12 years in Catholic schools and my experience was totally different.
We were encouraged to read the bible. Our religion classes included scripture study. I received a firm foundation in my faith from priests, nuns, brothers, and lay teachers who were stern but never mean, and well-grounded in their own faith. Discipline was sometimes physical in nature, but it was never done in anger and always administered fairly. The students who received physical punishment were harmed much more by the shame than by the beating. I would not trade my Catholic educatoin for anything.
I am not saying that what your husband experienced was not the truth, only that I do not believe it was typical. Millions of kids received an excellent Catholic education and left well grounded in their faith. Discipline was provided by teachers we respected, and we knew that they respected us as well. Those of us who were good kids and good students were allowed to excel (I taught three non-credit classes my senior year), while those were not the best were given the support they needed to overcome their problems if they wished to do so. The environment was nurturing and loving, faith-filled and prayerful.
Conditions did deteriorate in the couple of decades after I graduated, but those who wanted it could still get an excellent Catholic education at that school, and can still get it there today. It has doubled in size and has a long waiting list of kids wanting to get in. And most of them really want to be there. Some kids from my church parish drive more than 20 miles past two or three public high schools to go to that school.
So please don't ever think that isolated experiences with bad Catholic schools represented the norm. If they did, the Catholic school system would not exist today. It survives because the parents and grandparents of today's kids received good educations there, including a firm grounding in their faith, and they want the same thing for today's kids.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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mrsbmoo
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Posted: Mon Nov 6th, 2006 12:05 am |
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Rick,
It may have been an isolated bad parish experience. My point was there are hurtful church experiences in all churches. He actually only went to one year of Catholic school but it was CCD where he had so much bad experience. This was in New York State just north of New York City. His parents were not very well educated and never thought to get involved in his education, just left it up to the public schools and church, which is not what the church teaches either.
The bad catechesis problem unfortunately still happens sporadically. A church in a neighboring city has switched to an poorly administered whole family program and my parish's Faith formation program has absorbed a 30% enrollment increase in consequence. I am just thankful the parents are staying up on what their kids are learning.
____________________
Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 7 months and 16
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brian
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Posted: Mon Nov 6th, 2006 02:32 am |
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David,
I wonder about this, because i also have been around a lot of ex catholics. I think that each individual case has its factors. I think the thing is that many Catholics I have met, have truggled to really be able to understand the gospel aor know exactly how their religion teaches. it is this lack of knowlege that makes the idea of a one time conversion into a relationship with Jesus seem so appealing. It is somewhat true and for good reason that Catholics emphasize works...but they could stand to clarify the relationship of faith and redemption. so many catholics i knew could explain that they needed to be good people, but were weaker in understanding exaclty the nature of what Chrsit truly acomplishes for us and how it achieves our slavation as we perform our works through faith and grace. many catholics are simply left with a system. So in this regard sometimes they learn a few ideas from an evangelical that though present in Catholic theology, they never heard emphasized so they come to believe they finally have been converted or saved and want to share this easy path to salvation.
The more Catholics i meet the more i realize it is similar everywhere. each church has those who are blind and those who are enlightned. the longewr i am catholic the more faith filled i see it is and how my judgments were based on half the information i needed. But i also hear Catholics nowadaoys doing things that are working in other denominations moreso than they used to. I think that at its worst Catholicism produces a system that with no dynamic leadership and discipling one can perfprm all the religious tasks without ever really knowing why. I hate seeing so many kids confirmed without truly believing or carin. I have seen a lot of this sort of thing. I think it should be harder to have a child confirmed. but who am i?
i dont know iwhy i am chiming in. i did not disagree with anything you said. but i do think that it is possible some people just need someone to sit down with them and make sure that they understand some basic things about the gospel. sure they can recite these things every week in the nicene creed, but sometimes someone needs to make it very personal to them, and ask if these truths affect them personally and how. Catholics receive Jesus and do everything that evangelicals consider conversion every single week. repentance, thanksgiving, receiving Jesus. The problem maybe is in the fact that they do these things without themselves responding internally, or others around them give bad example by going through the motions but not belieiving all of what the church teaches, and perhaps the fact that they do this every week, they do not understand the eternal nature of what they are doing. maybe they feel so misinformed becasue CAtholicsism accurately teaches we must persevere and continue in repentance and to love God and unite ourselves to Him. It is dangerious to teach people to say one prayer and then just assume they are saved. but maybe the problem with the accuracy of Catholicism is that people never understand that what they are doing is growing in a holiness and salvation that though they hope to achieve, it lies in the mysteries they receive of God's grace and salvation through the sacramental life of the church, that though they continue to journey toward their salvation in a cpmpleted sense, they can know that conversion is also something you can more or less make sure you do, as long as you make sure you keep up with it. They need to see that fine line between being saved, but walking out that salvation.
but i also think that many of these catholics for many reasons, some bad parishes, some not paying attention, some not being asked the right questions, are usually good people who fall in love with Jesus, and i hope the best for them. that it is better theyfall in love with Jesus in the wrong church than not have any idea who He is in the right church. but ultimately i hope that the Catholic Church just grows and wins back all sorts of people due to it being properly lived out in the lives of its members. i hope i will be part of the solution and not part of the problem. but i do not doubt that many who leave left due to serious problems they encountered in the teaching or lives of catholics they knew. so many catholics i have met do not even seem to believe in their own faith and all that it teaches. However, if one would get to know more and more devout Catholics who live the faith i doubt one could find better examples anywhere of what it means to be a follower of Jesus. But the Catholic church being bigger and more inviting of all kinds of people, i think you find more of everything from scandals, to saints, to miracles, to sinners, to those who get it and those who dont. now i am not so surprised that the word CAtholic means so many different things to so many different people. i just wish those would get to know it in its most accurate definition before thinking they know better.
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Talithacumi
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| Joined: | Sat Sep 30th, 2006 |
| Location: | Eastern Ohio, USA |
| Posts: | 248 |
| First Name: | Cheri | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic - Latin Rite |
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Posted: Mon Nov 6th, 2006 03:30 am |
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Darlene,
There are some good responses to your post. But I just thought I’d share with you a few of my own observations as a Cradle Catholic…
For one thing, to use a Protestant argument, where does it say anything about a “personal relationship with Jesus” in the Bible? OK, I mean, of course we should have a personal relationship with our Lord! But even if that’s true, who’s to judge just what that “relationship” should be like? And how does one define “personal relationship”?
And if one does claim to have a “personal relationship with Jesus”, what exactly does that prove? Who are any of us to judge what a person’s “personal” relationships should be like anyway? I mean, even Satan had a “personal relationship” with Jesus! (not a good one, maybe, but it was still a "personal relationship"). I’m not denying a personal relationship with Jesus is very important, just trying to point out that sometimes people get too caught up in semantics - and also in being judgmental, since none of us can read another's heart (or very few of us can...).
And then there’s the question of the nuns being mean. Hm. When I went to Catholic grade school, my 8th-grade teacher was a nun. Yeah, we all thought she was mean. When she was mad, she used to point her crooked arthritic finger and with murder in her eyes, she would look at the troublemaker in question and say in her deep threatening voice, “I’m gonna come down that aisle!” And believe me! You didn’t want her to do that! Boys might get their hair yanked, or their ears boxed. Girls got scolded or maybe even embarrassed. (I was very shy and quiet in school, but home was a different story  … Once during a teacher’s conference, she mentioned to my dad how quiet I was, and he kind of laughed and said, “You should hear her at home! She screams at home!” A couple days later as I was mumbling in my reading aloud, Sister said – in front of the class, “Come on, Cheryl, you can read louder than that. Your dad says you scream at home.” Talk about embarrassing!)
Anyway, I have lots of “Sister stories,” but the point is, I look back on those days and smile. She wasn’t always bad. There were some funny moments. And she could be really nice at times. (In short, she was human). I have to say she was my most memorable teacher. And she did teach us a thing or two about our faith. Every morning when the bell rang, we had to stand and pray an Our Father, Hail Mary and a Glory Be, plus a few other prayers. We read stories of the saints and learned some of the basics of our faith.
Now, I’ll be honest with you. Some of the kids (now adults, obviously) have those same memories of her and they shudder to think of her. Why? I don’t know. Well, I admit that most of them are males, and she had them scared to death!  But seriously, I miss the nuns. I wish we still had them. Kids learned respect, manners, and reverence when the nuns were there teaching. There was just something holy about them. And if they were a little strict from time to time, well, I heard of public school children talking about how mean their teachers were, too. They weren’t really any different. They just didn’t have the stigma of “nun” attached to them.
As for Confession, I’ll let that one go for the Sacraments forums… deserves a whole thread in itself, and in fact, I think there might be some posts written in the Sacraments forums about that particular subject.
" The Catholic Church always wanted money from its members and if you were poor, they really didn't care. You still had to tithe what they told you to tithe or you wouldn't be priveleged to participate in any of the sacraments."
Wow. Sorry, but I've been Catholic all my life, and my family was one of the "poorer" ones. This one is just utterly untrue. No Catholic church is ever going to keep a person from the sacraments because they're poor! Frankly, whoever told that one is just lying!
Catholics didn't really live their faith and just went to church on Sunday, went to Confession when they were told to or when they felt like it, and pretty much lived the way worldly people do.
Unfortunately, there are those Catholics who only pay lip service to their faith, but so there are in all churches. But just as often, it only appears to be true. I know there are those who judge Catholics by how we appear to worship. Just because Catholics don't always have a smile plastered on our face or look like we're on some spiritual high or wave our hands in the air doesn't mean we're unhappy as Catholics. It doesn't mean our faith doesn't mean anything to us.
It's just that our faith is like water to us. We need it. We can't live without it, but we don't have to get all emotional about it all of the time. And as far as living in a worldly way? Well, we are not of the world, but we do live in the world, so, depending on exactly what is meant here, I can only say that God gave us this world to live in. God created it, and it is good. Certainly we should not live materialistic and hedonistic lives, but we are allowed to derive pleasure from this world and to make our home in it for the duration of our earthly lives. We can and should appreciate its beauty. I remember a very wise priest once saying that "it's OK to have your head in the clouds as long as your feet are on the ground."
A brief word about rules. We have rules in our schools, in our workplace, in our cities, on our roads... everywhere! Can you imagine if we didn't? The rules the Church makes for her people are to keep things functioning well, to guide us, and oftentimes to protect us. The "rules" are generally made for our benefit.
Btw, Darlene, I hope I don't sound like I'm addressing you personally here. I am merely addressing some of those 6 points you brought up by others, not you personally. And sorry this is so long...
JMJ
- Cheri
Last edited on Mon Nov 6th, 2006 03:32 am by Talithacumi
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“We do not want a Church that will move with the world; we want a Church that will move the world.”
- G.K. Chesterton
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mrsbmoo
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 267 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | former Methodist. RCA, Presbyterian, Holiness, Wesleyan... Catholic as of June ... |
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Posted: Mon Nov 6th, 2006 10:38 am |
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Brian,
You mentioned that you wondered whether the confirmation process was adequate so let me tell you about the confirmation program at my church since I have a daughter in her second year. The first year, usually 10th or 11th grade, there is the Sunday School class which addresses more real life applications of the faith. There is also a retreat that has contemporary music, and is more like a rally. The second year, 11th or 12th grade, they continue in the class. This past Sunday they discussed what they would do if they had a non-Catholic friend coming to Mass and had to explain why they couldn't give him communion. It came down to needing to understand and explain the real presence. In the car afterwards, she explained it to her younger sisters. They also are required to attend 6 types of rituals in the church. I think the choices were: wedding, funeral, confession, Holy Day Mass, rosary, weekday mass at another parish, helping at a church event. They also must perform more than 10 hours of community service and some of them must be in the church. The second year retreat is more contemplative and about privately examining what they are taking on by confirmation. At the end of the year they must personally write to the bishop requesting to be confirmed. Yes, a teen can certainly can go through it on auto-pilot, at the demands of parents and learn nothing but it seems like they have really tried to prepare the kids. I know my own daughter asked me if I would force her to be confirmed. Her friends at Catholic school had been discussing parents doing this. Some parents do insist. Some kids give in. No system is perfect. BTW, I said no I wouldn't force her but that she ought to finish the year before she made up her mind.
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Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 7 months and 16
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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 877 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Mon Nov 6th, 2006 01:40 pm |
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To Everyone:
Thanks for all of your comments. This post of mine was very much like a "thinking out loud" exercise. I have been considering what the reaction of those former Catholics might be should I inform them of my interest in the Catholic faith. I think that my closest friend would not have that much of a problem. She loves Catholic art and has some of it displayed in her home, even though her husband is a staunch Calvinist. She sent her daughter to Catholic High School because they were far more helpful in giving grants and making a way for them to afford a good education for their daughter than the private Christian schools. She said a few years ago that she thought Catholics show more involvement in family activities that are connected to the Church than her Calivinist/Baptist church. We have had some discussions about Catholics from time to time and we both believe that Catholics are just as saved as much as Protestants. Yet we recognize that there are insincere and faithless Christians in all churches.
However, some of the other ex-Catholics I know would probably "blow their lid" (for lack of a better description, lol) if they found out how seriously I am considering the Catholic faith. I am concerned that they might try to have a "meeting" with me and convince me of the errors of Catholicism.
With all this said, I have been very quiet and private in my seeking out the Catholic faith. I have dropped hints to my husband from time to time, but have not revealed how seriously I am seeking to understand Catholicism. I have been waiting for the Holy Spirit to show me the appropriate time to open up about this. Until then, I will ponder many things in my heart (as Mary did) and continue to live a prayerful and Godly life.
Again, thanks for all of your input. It is very much appreciated by this seeking Protestant. God Bless You All.
In Christ,
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Saint Wanna Be
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| Joined: | Thu Oct 26th, 2006 |
| Location: | Oxford, Mississippi USA |
| Posts: | 17 |
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Posted: Mon Nov 6th, 2006 02:10 pm |
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Thanks for your candid and thoughtful post Darlene. In my journey to the Catholic Church my wife was not ready when I was. I also had to "drop hints". I would encourage you to pray the rosary daily and ask Mary to pray for your husband. I did not push my wife at all. I was honest with her, and I did let her know where I was from time to time in my seeking, but I never pushed her. Her father is a retired methodist minister. He is a very strong Weslyan Methodist, not a liberal one. He is very influential in the methodist church and it was a BIG deal that we were even considering this. By God's grace, she started looking into the Catholic Church and after a period of questions and prayer, she became as convinced as I was. Your friends who would try to talk you out of it will just have to deal with and be respectful of your serious seeking for where God is leading you. I will pray for you.
Peace,
Keith
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St.W.B.
In the Eucharist We find Emmanuel
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twiggymoo
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| Joined: | Fri Oct 13th, 2006 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
| Posts: | 36 |
| First Name: | Twiggymoo | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nazarene, Free Methodist, Baptist..Romeward bound |
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Posted: Tue Nov 7th, 2006 12:46 pm |
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My wife was raised Catholic in Italy. I met her in Italy 30 years ago - a nice young Catholic lady. We went to the states and were invited to a "revival" and she found Christ. That was all "she wrote". Since then, she most anti-catholic. Now it's been five years I've been looking into the Catholic church (I had no religion prior to our conversion during that fateful revival those years ago). She called me blasphemous - last night after I said "hail Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy" -she also says I'm guilty of spiritual adultery, and so forth. Sometimes I just want to give it all up and throw in the towel. There is no peace in my home. Yet - I love the Church!
Regards,
Don
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Saint Wanna Be
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| Joined: | Thu Oct 26th, 2006 |
| Location: | Oxford, Mississippi USA |
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Posted: Tue Nov 7th, 2006 02:34 pm |
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Don't give up Don. Read some of the conversion stories on the home page of The Coming Home Network if you haven't already. http://www.chnetwork.org I think Jesus' words to the disciples regarding salvation is applicable, "With man it is impossible, with God, all things are possible." If someone had told my wife 5 years ago she would be Catholic she would have laughed. She is now even more passionate than I am! She would tell you not to throw in the towel. She would say to pray the rosary daily for your wife. go to http://www.ewtn.com and search the word "rosary" for help and understanding of this prayer.
Stay the course you have been on the past 5 years, God is faithful. As Mother Teresa would often say, "God never calls anyone to be successful, but He does call us to be faithful."
Peace,
Keith
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St.W.B.
In the Eucharist We find Emmanuel
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twiggymoo
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| Joined: | Fri Oct 13th, 2006 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
| Posts: | 36 |
| First Name: | Twiggymoo | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nazarene, Free Methodist, Baptist..Romeward bound |
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Posted: Tue Nov 7th, 2006 02:47 pm |
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Keith,
Thanks,
I don't know if she prays for me, but I pray the Rosary regularly and I will continue.
Pax,
Don
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SBC2RCC
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | York, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 119 |
| First Name: | Monte | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | was Southern Baptist Minister, now Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Nov 7th, 2006 09:19 pm |
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Great responses and information from so many people. I have to add this...
It really jumped out at me about the Poor and giving and being kept from the sacraments.
My observation and experience is that in the Catholic Church is where the poor are welcomed. There in our local St. Peter's parish I saw business men in suits at Mass with men in hardhats, black and white, hispanic, vietnamese, Indian, redneck and yankee, all in the same line for communion. In protestant churches one finds "the health and wealth gospel." In the Catholic Church is the St. Vincent DePaul Society and Catholic Social Services. Especially for members of a parish, there is a lot of help offered. There is a much better understanding of tithing and giving. And certainly there is only in the Catholic Church a preferential option for the poor. I have been in the shoes of poverty, and my priest and many others have truly helped. The other churches in town said, "we don't have anything" while there were plenty of funds for elaborate programs. When a group of pastors was interviewed on the radio about a man who "made the rounds" c | | |
