 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
Br_Carlo
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Tyler, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 153 |
| First Name: | Br_Carlo (Vince Brach) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Episcopalian, CATHOLIC |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Oct 11th, 2007 08:32 am |
|
God's peace. This morning Cal Thomas' editorial in the paper asserted (after citing the anti-catholic CRAM "resource") that the God of Islam is not the same God as that of evangelical Christians. He goes on to list doctrinal differences in support of his assertion.
If I were asked the question, "Do Muslims worship the same God we do?" I would have to say "yes," since as I see it there is only one God, regardless of what we call him or what we think of him, and he does not change. To me, Thomas' view repeats a pervasive Protestant error that God is somehow defined by us, and that we can therefore "unchurch" people who do not see God in exactly the same way that we do. What say you? Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~
p.s. Could a moderator please change the forum of this posting to something more appropriate? Thanks!
Last edited on Thu Oct 11th, 2007 08:39 am by Br_Carlo
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4981 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Oct 11th, 2007 09:33 am |
|
Br_Carlo wrote: God's peace. This morning Cal Thomas' editorial in the paper asserted (after citing the anti-catholic CRAM "resource") that the God of Islam is not the same God as that of evangelical Christians. He goes on to list doctrinal differences in support of his assertion.
If I were asked the question, "Do Muslims worship the same God we do?" I would have to say "yes," since as I see it there is only one God, regardless of what we call him or what we think of him, and he does not change. To me, Thomas' view repeats a pervasive Protestant error that God is somehow defined by us, and that we can therefore "unchurch" people who do not see God in exactly the same way that we do. What say you? Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~
p.s. Could a moderator please change the forum of this posting to something more appropriate? Thanks!
Don't we begin the Creed with "I believe in one God"? If there truly is only one God, as I believe, how can Allah be different?
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
Annie
Member
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 718 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Oct 11th, 2007 09:50 am |
|
| But don't we believe that there are people who worship false gods? Just because a religion claims to worship the God of Abraham may not necessarily mean it's true, given that we believe in a triune God which the Moslems explicitly deny. We believe we will be judged by Christ and the Moslems don't, for example.
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
|
|
|
BodRod
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 720 |
| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Oct 11th, 2007 09:53 am |
|
| Maybe it would help if we defined, in some way, what we mean by the words, "..... God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God......". How is "God", "Light" and "True God" different from "God", "Light" and "True God" ? Last edited on Thu Oct 11th, 2007 11:22 am by BodRod
____________________
Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
|
|
|
Annie
Member
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 718 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Oct 11th, 2007 09:58 am |
|
BodRod wrote: Maybe if would help if we defined, in some way, what we mean by the words, "..... God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God......". How is "God", "Light" and "True God" different from "God", "Light" and "True God" ?
This phrase is to accentuate the idea that we believe in the "begottenness" not "madeness."
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
|
|
|
japhy
Member
| Joined: | Thu Apr 26th, 2007 |
| Location: | Princeton, New Jersey USA |
| Posts: | 179 |
| First Name: | Jeff / japhy | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | (Roman) Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Oct 11th, 2007 01:08 pm |
|
Annie wrote: But don't we believe that there are people who worship false gods? Just because a religion claims to worship the God of Abraham may not necessarily mean it's true, given that we believe in a triune God which the Moslems explicitly deny. We believe we will be judged by Christ and the Moslems don't, for example. Jews as well do not believe in the trinitarian nature of God. Does this mean they're worshiping a false god?
While I'm never to quick to say that yes, all Muslims believe in the same God as Christians believe in, the One True God, I won't deny that Muslims can be Muslim and yet believe in the One True God. The problem is with the manner of their belief.
You might as well say all Protestants believe in a false god or a false "Jesus" because they don't believe Jesus established a ministerial priesthood, they don't believe in the Real Presence, they deny the Blessed Virgin Mary the honor she prophesied for herself, etc. But they don't believe in a false god, they believe wrongly about Him in some places, and not in others. The Catholic faith is, as C. S. Lewis might have put it, a clear mirror reflecting the Truth of God; other faiths are dirtier mirrors that conceal and distort that light of Truth. Thus, you have "non-Trinitarian Christians" (a concept that orthodox Christianity considers a heresy!) who deny that there is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, one God in three Persons. They equate Jesus with God (right) and determine that the Son is the Father (wrong).
So where do Muslims go wrong? They've taken a massive step back from the revelation of Jesus Christ, for one thing. By relegating him to simply a Prophet and not God Incarnate, they have to deny many tenets of the Catholic faith. They deny the Trinitarian nature of God. They know what God is (the Almighty Father and Creator) but not who He is. Whether God holds this against them is up to God, but I do not see the need for another "true" (?) religion after the advent of Jesus Christ. All non-Christian religions must be seen as stepping stones to the Truth, not as resting places; and even then I'd go so far as to say ut unum sint, that all non-Catholic faiths find their true home in the truth of Catholicism.
____________________
[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
|
|
|
BodRod
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 720 |
| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Oct 11th, 2007 01:34 pm |
|
I wonder if we could observe a person's behavior and figure out if they worship the "True God" or not? If so, what would we look for in behaviors, speech and mannerisms? I think Matthew 7:16-20 would fit in here. Speaking for just myself, I don't think I would be following the "True God" if I believed that I should kill everyone who does not believe exactly as I do. That does not sound like the kind of God that would spare an entire town if only 5 righteous people lived in it.
Last edited on Thu Oct 11th, 2007 02:33 pm by BodRod
____________________
Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
|
|
|
Annie
Member
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 718 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Oct 11th, 2007 02:16 pm |
|
| I think these last two posts have a lot of wisdom in them.
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
|
|
|
Kayla
Member
| Joined: | Mon Jul 30th, 2007 |
| Location: | Emmitsburg, Maryland USA |
| Posts: | 349 |
| First Name: | Kayla | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Atheist, kind-of Mormon, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Oct 11th, 2007 11:13 pm |
|
japhy wrote: Jews as well do not believe in the trinitarian nature of God. Does this mean they're worshiping a false god?
While I'm never to quick to say that yes, all Muslims believe in the same God as Christians believe in, the One True God, I won't deny that Muslims can be Muslim and yet believe in the One True God. The problem is with the manner of their belief.
You might as well say all Protestants believe in a false god or a false "Jesus" because they don't believe Jesus established a ministerial priesthood, they don't believe in the Real Presence, they deny the Blessed Virgin Mary the honor she prophesied for herself, etc. But they don't believe in a false god, they believe wrongly about Him in some places, and not in others. The Catholic faith is, as C. S. Lewis might have put it, a clear mirror reflecting the Truth of God; other faiths are dirtier mirrors that conceal and distort that light of Truth. Thus, you have "non-Trinitarian Christians" (a concept that orthodox Christianity considers a heresy!) who deny that there is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, one God in three Persons. They equate Jesus with God (right) and determine that the Son is the Father (wrong).
So where do Muslims go wrong? They've taken a massive step back from the revelation of Jesus Christ, for one thing. By relegating him to simply a Prophet and not God Incarnate, they have to deny many tenets of the Catholic faith. They deny the Trinitarian nature of God. They know what God is (the Almighty Father and Creator) but not who He is. Whether God holds this against them is up to God, but I do not see the need for another "true" (?) religion after the advent of Jesus Christ. All non-Christian religions must be seen as stepping stones to the Truth, not as resting places; and even then I'd go so far as to say ut unum sint, that all non-Catholic faiths find their true home in the truth of Catholicism.
Would you apply the same concept to the Mormon denial of the Trinity? I know many who will deny that Mormons worship the same God, but at the same time accept Muslims or Jews as doing so. Seems slightly contradictory to me. (Not implying this of you, just of others who have presented a similar idea to yours.)
____________________
I believe, Lord, help my unbelief.
Jesus, I trust in You!
There's not a lot of job security for us after death. I suppose that's one advantage of being a philosopher. - Peter Kreeft
http://kayla23mount.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1715 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Oct 11th, 2007 11:18 pm |
|
I know many who will deny that Mormons worship the same God, but at the same time accept Muslims or Jews as doing so. Seems slightly contradictory to me.
Kayla, you’ve studied a bit of Mormonism. Isn’t it true that Mormons view the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as three distinct and separate Gods? And isn’t this polytheism rather than monotheism? There’s your difference.
David
|
|
|
Kayla
Member
| Joined: | Mon Jul 30th, 2007 |
| Location: | Emmitsburg, Maryland USA |
| Posts: | 349 |
| First Name: | Kayla | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Atheist, kind-of Mormon, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Oct 11th, 2007 11:50 pm |
|
David W. Emery wrote: I know many who will deny that Mormons worship the same God, but at the same time accept Muslims or Jews as doing so. Seems slightly contradictory to me.
Kayla, you’ve studied a bit of Mormonism. Isn’t it true that Mormons view the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as three distinct and separate Gods? And isn’t this polytheism rather than monotheism? There’s your difference.
David
David,
From my experience and study with Mormonism, that's not the way Mormons view this issue. They believe that both the Father and the Son have physical bodies, which is the difference between their beliefs and those of trinitarian belief. They still believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One God, not separate Gods. In which case, this would be more of a misconstrued view of the Truth of the nature of God; similar to the misconstrued view that Jews and Muslims have, at least in relation to this discussion, correct? Or at least that was the point I was making with Jeff. If the exception is made for Muslims and Jews, why not also with Mormons? (Again, not to automatically imply that Jeff has said this, just from what I've heard from others with similar thoughts.)
The misconception about polytheism has to do with their belief that men can become 'gods', with a little 'g'. In which those men who reach the highest of the Celestial Kingdom (which is the highest level of Heaven) receive the power to have their own world, but still be 'under' the Heavenly Father.
Last edited on Thu Oct 11th, 2007 11:54 pm by Kayla
____________________
I believe, Lord, help my unbelief.
Jesus, I trust in You!
There's not a lot of job security for us after death. I suppose that's one advantage of being a philosopher. - Peter Kreeft
http://kayla23mount.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1715 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Oct 12th, 2007 02:32 am |
|
Kayla wrote:From my experience and study with Mormonism, that's not the way Mormons view this issue. They believe that both the Father and the Son have physical bodies, which is the difference between their beliefs and those of trinitarian belief. They still believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One God, not separate Gods.
The reason why I bring up the “separate Gods” issue is because it is on this basis that the Catholic Church denies the validity of Mormon baptism.
Here is a quote from Joseph Smith’s own teachings:
I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have selected this text for that express purpose. I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the Elders for fifteen years.
I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it! (Joseph Smith's Sermon on Plurality of Gods,
as printed in History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473-479, available on the internet here)
Something I have observed, and in fact have been advised of by former LDS members, is that Mormons tend to present their sect as a bland, generic form of Protestant Christianity to the casual inquirer. A few distinctive teachings will be revealed to the more serious inquirer. But information on the most unchristian teachings is generally withheld until the person actually becomes Mormon. It is possible that you were approached in this manner.
David
|
|
|
Kayla
Member
| Joined: | Mon Jul 30th, 2007 |
| Location: | Emmitsburg, Maryland USA |
| Posts: | 349 |
| First Name: | Kayla | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Atheist, kind-of Mormon, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Oct 12th, 2007 05:36 am |
|
David W. Emery wrote:
The reason why I bring up the “separate Gods” issue is because it is on this basis that the Catholic Church denies the validity of Mormon baptism.
Here is a quote from Joseph Smith’s own teachings:
I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have selected this text for that express purpose. I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the Elders for fifteen years.
I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it! (Joseph Smith's Sermon on Plurality of Gods,
as printed in History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473-479, available on the internet here) Something I have observed, and in fact have been advised of by former LDS members, is that Mormons tend to present their sect as a bland, generic form of Protestant Christianity to the casual inquirer. A few distinctive teachings will be revealed to the more serious inquirer. But information on the most unchristian teachings is generally withheld until the person actually becomes Mormon. It is possible that you were approached in this manner.
David
Seems to be such. I wonder at which point this teaching (which is certaintly not what was taught to me by the Mormon missionaries) is also expressed to Mormons who grow up in the LDS church. I attended early morning seminary for a good year or so, and I, along with the other high school students, were taught on this matter and thus under the impression that Joseph Smith did not teach a plurality of Gods. I am curious now as to whether or not my Mormon friends, who seem to think that they believe in a singular God, know of this teaching? It seems to me, that if you were to ask any regularly practicing Mormon about this, they would sincerely claim to believe in One God. Interesting. I am curious, I may have to ask a friend of mine on this matter.
____________________
I believe, Lord, help my unbelief.
Jesus, I trust in You!
There's not a lot of job security for us after death. I suppose that's one advantage of being a philosopher. - Peter Kreeft
http://kayla23mount.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
JillD
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 600 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Oct 12th, 2007 11:52 am |
|
This topic is confusing me. Just because others call the one whom they worship "God" does not necessarily make him the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. We all have a woman whom we call "Mom," but she's not the same person. The God we worship has a Son, also God, whose name is Jesus. The God we worship is a trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The God we worship inspired a book we call the Bible. The God we worship gave up His life for us.
How can this God also be the god of Islam or any other religion? They may be seeking a "higher power" and call their higher power 'god,' but I don't see how it can be the same god as YHWH.
Help me out with this one!
Jill
____________________
"The alternative to obedience is to turn the conversation into a cacophony of Christians making it up as they go along." - Fr. Richard John Neuhaus
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4981 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Oct 12th, 2007 02:42 pm |
|
JillD wrote: This topic is confusing me. Just because others call the one whom they worship "God" does not necessarily make him the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Muslims do indeed believe they are worshipping the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. YHWH in Hebrew translates as "Allah" in Arabic tongues, including (if I'm not mistaken) Aramaic, so Jesus himself would have used the term "Allah" in reference to God. However, keep in mind that the "Persona" we call Yahweh is God the Father ("Abba"). Muslims do not recognize the Divinity of Jesus, and do not accept the Holy Spirit as a separate Persona of God, and neither do the Jews.
In other words, the Muslim understanding of God is closer to the Jewish than to the Christian. There are marked differences in how they perceive God and the attributes they ascribe to God, but that is a failure of human perception.
There is only one God and there can be only one God, so by necessity we all worship the same God, regardless of the name we use. If our human perceptions are flawed, God is not changed. Even polytheistic religions like the ancient Egyptians still worshipped the one and only God, although they believed God to be multiple beings.
Does that make any more sense, or did I just muddy the waters even more?
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1715 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Oct 12th, 2007 03:15 pm |
|
CajunRick wrote:YHWH in Hebrew translates as "Allah" in Arabic tongues, including (if I'm not mistaken) Aramaic, so Jesus himself would have used the term "Allah" in reference to God.
Arabic “Allah” is cognate with the Hebrew “El” or “Elohim.” All these words mean “God.”
YHWH (also known as the Tetragrammaton — the “four-lettered word”) means “He is”; it is a form of the verb hayah, “to be.” The name comes from Exodus 3:14–15:
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you’: this is my name for ever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.
“I am” – “He is.” This is God’s name, while “God” is what he is.
There is only one God and there can be only one God, so by necessity we all worship the same God, regardless of the name we use. If our human perceptions are flawed, God is not changed.
If I have a goat, but my neighbor insists that it is a sheep, does this make it a sheep? No, it remains a goat no matter what my neighbor thinks. This is the explanation of the issue that I have accepted from the beginning. We have to remember that we are creatures, and that our perception and understanding are not unlimited. However, if others have a different point of view, I do not hold that against them. It just demonstrates how fallible we humans are, and that serves to prove my point.
David
|
|
|
Daffodil
Member
| Joined: | Sat Apr 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 78 |
| First Name: | Daffodil | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | not attending church, New Age, Episcopalian, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Oct 15th, 2007 05:49 pm |
|
Isn’t it true that Mormons view the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as three distinct and separate Gods? And isn’t this polytheism rather than monotheism? There’s your difference.
LDS see the Son and the Holy Spirit as arms of God--they represent Him, and are inferior to Him, and are most definitely separate personages. They are a part of "Team God", so to speak. It is the same with every level of LDS organization--the Bishopric contains the Bishop (local pastor) and two other folks who assist him and carry the same title. The Presidency (leader of their faith community) has a President and two other folks who help, and carry the title.
Depending on what LDS you talk to, then the answer to your question might be yes, might be no. They often use the same words but mean different things than we do. They use the word 'godhead' but it is entirely different from the Holy Trinity of which Christ revealed to us. They worship Jesus (I can't speak for every LDS, but I have heard enough individuals say it to make a general statement), and worship "Heavenly Father," and yet believe that they are two separate personages.
You and I both know that if two personages are being worshipped who do not share the same substance, then it is polytheism.
The idea of eternal progression further indicates that it is not a monotheistic religion. Monotheism holds that there is only one God, NOT that there is only one God that we have to do with. 
____________________
My soul magnifies the Lord,
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior....
|
|
|
setapart
Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 13th, 2007 |
| Location: | Austin, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 117 |
| First Name: | Bill | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Born Catholic, Non-Denominational Charismatic, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jan 18th, 2008 02:51 am |
|
CajunRick wrote: JillD wrote: This topic is confusing me. Just because others call the one whom they worship "God" does not necessarily make him the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Muslims do indeed believe they are worshipping the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. YHWH in Hebrew translates as "Allah" in Arabic tongues, including (if I'm not mistaken) Aramaic, so Jesus himself would have used the term "Allah" in reference to God. However, keep in mind that the "Persona" we call Yahweh is God the Father ("Abba"). Muslims do not recognize the Divinity of Jesus, and do not accept the Holy Spirit as a separate Persona of God, and neither do the Jews.
In other words, the Muslim understanding of God is closer to the Jewish than to the Christian. There are marked differences in how they perceive God and the attributes they ascribe to God, but that is a failure of human perception.
There is only one God and there can be only one God, so by necessity we all worship the same God, regardless of the name we use. If our human perceptions are flawed, God is not changed. Even polytheistic religions like the ancient Egyptians still worshipped the one and only God, although they believed God to be multiple beings.
Does that make any more sense, or did I just muddy the waters even more?
I disagree with your reasoning that all these religions worship the same God regardless of their flawed view of Him as noted in the Sacred Scriptures quoted below:
19 The woman said to him, "Sir, I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain; but you people say that the place to worship is in Jerusalem." 21 Jesus said to her, "Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You people worship what you do not understand; we worship what we understand, because salvation is from the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth; and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth." John 4:19-24 (NAB)
10 Jesus answered and said to him, "You are the teacher of Israel and you do not understand this? 11 Amen, amen, I say to you, we speak of what we know and we testify to what we have seen, but you people do not accept our testimony. 12 If I tell you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life." 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed. 21 But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.
John 3:10-21 (NAB)
1 When Jesus had said this, he raised his eyes to heaven and said, "Father, the hour has come. Give glory to your son, so that your son may glorify you, 2 just as you gave him authority over all people, so that he may give eternal life to all you gave him. 3 Now this is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. John 17:1-3 (NAB)
32 So Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." 34 So they said to him, "Sir, give us this bread always." 35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst. 36 But I told you that although you have seen (me), you do not believe. 37 Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not reject anyone who comes to me, 38 because I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me. 39 And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it (on) the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day." 41 The Jews murmured about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven,"
John 6:32-41 (NAB)
16 Jesus answered them and said, "My teaching is not my own but is from the one who sent me. 17 Whoever chooses to do his will shall know whether my teaching is from God or whether I speak on my own. 18 Whoever speaks on his own seeks his own glory, but whoever seeks the glory of the one who sent him is truthful, and there is no wrong in him. John 7:16-18 (NAB)
14 Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I do testify on my own behalf, my testimony can be verified, because I know where I came from and where I am going. But you do not know where I come from or where I am going. 15 You judge by appearances, but I do not judge anyone. 16 And even if I should judge, my judgment is valid, because I am not alone, but it is I and the Father who sent me. 17 Even in your law it is written that the testimony of two men can be verified. 18 I testify on my behalf and so does the Father who sent me." 19 So they said to him, "Where is your father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also." John 8:14-19 (NAB)
31 Jesus then said to those Jews who believed in him, "If you remain in my word, you will truly be my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." 33 They answered him, "We are descendants of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How can you say, 'You will become free'?" 34 Jesus answered them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 A slave does not remain in a household forever, but a son always remains. 36 So if a son frees you, then you will truly be free. 37 I know that you are descendants of Abraham. But you are trying to kill me, because my word has no room among you. 38 I tell you what I have seen in the Father's presence; then do what you have heard from the Father." 39 They answered and said to him, "Our father is Abraham." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing the works of Abraham. 40 But now you are trying to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God; Abraham did not do this. 41 You are doing the works of your father!" (So) they said to him, "We are not illegitimate. We have one Father, God." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and am here; I did not come on my own, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You belong to your father the devil and you willingly carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks in character, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I speak the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Can any of you charge me with sin? If I am telling the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not listen, because you do not belong to God." 48 The Jews answered and said to him, "Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and are possessed?" 49 Jesus answered, "I am not possessed; I honor my Father, but you dishonor me. 50 I do not seek my own glory; there is one who seeks it and he is the one who judges. 51 Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death." 52 (So) the Jews said to him, "Now we are sure that you are possessed. Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, 'Whoever keeps my word will never taste death.' 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? Or the prophets, who died? Who do you make yourself out to be?" 54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify myself, my glory is worth nothing; but it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, 'He is our God.' 55 You do not know him, but I know him. And if I should say that I do not know him, I would be like you a liar. But I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day; he saw it and was glad. 57 So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old and you have seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM." 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid and went out of the temple area. John 8:31-59 (NAB)
Over and over Jesus stressed the importance of knowing the Father only through the Son. The Jews believed in ONE God but Jesus condemned them because their view of god was not representative of the true Father from Whom He came.
How can we ever represent the true God revealed through Christ if we are ever willing to justify other faiths who so blatenly deny the true identity of Jesus Christ. The early church and many today suffer martydon because they defended the necessity of proclaiming the resurection of the dead through Jesus Christ in the face of much opposition including the religious persecution the St. Paul suffered at the hands of the Jew who refused to beilieve in his message about Christ, therefore he shook the dust off of his feet and told them that they were not worthy of eternal life:
4 Every sabbath, he entered into discussions in the synagogue, attempting to convince both Jews and Greeks. 5 When Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began to occupy himself totally with preaching the word, testifying to the Jews that the Messiah was Jesus. 6 When they opposed him and reviled him, he shook out his garments and said to them, "Your blood be on your heads! I am clear of responsibility. From now on I will go to the Gentiles." Acts 18:4-6 (NAB)
In the same way Paul preached to the Gentiles of the necessity of repentance and beielf in the one true God revealed in Jesus:
22 Then Paul stood up at the Areopagus and said: "You Athenians, I see that in every respect you are very religious. 23 For as I walked around looking carefully at your shrines, I even discovered an altar inscribed, 'To an Unknown God.' What therefore you unknowingly worship, I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and all that is in it, the Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in sanctuaries made by human hands, 25 nor is he served by human hands because he needs anything. Rather it is he who gives to everyone life and breath and everything. 26 He made from one the whole human race to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he fixed the ordered seasons and the boundaries of their regions, 27 so that people might seek God, even perhaps grope for him and find him, though indeed he is not far from any one of us. 28 For 'In him we live and move and have our being,' as even some of your poets have said, 'For we too are his offspring.' 29 Since therefore we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the divinity is like an image fashioned from gold, silver, or stone by human art and imagination. 30 God has overlooked the times of ignorance, but now he demands that all people everywhere repent 31 because he has established a day on which he will 'judge the world with justice' through a man he has appointed, and he has provided confirmation for all by raising him from the dead." Acts 17:22-31 (NAB)
____________________
But for you who fear my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture. Mal 4:2
|
|
|
DrDave
Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Mildura, Australia |
| Posts: | 211 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle - Lapsed - Renewed Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jan 18th, 2008 07:32 am |
|
Jesus Christ, who the Catholic Church teaches is "one in being with the Father", who is YHWH, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who together with the Holy Spirit comprise three persons in one God (the Trinity) claimed that he/they are the one true god.
The obvious implication of this is that any and all other claimants to the title "God" are by this definition "false gods". But what is a "false god"? Do "false gods" exist? or are they figments of deluded imaginations?
I would suggest that the term, "false gods" refers not to gods but rather to things (real or imagined) given the honour and worship that is due only to God.
How does this affect the Muslim?, or for that matter the Jew, the LDS, the Hindu the Wiccan, the Martian etc? Insofar as these individuals recognise that there is a god, they recognise OUR god, for he is the only TRUE god. Insofar as they conflate with this true god the understandings they either guess from their own understanding of the universe, and those incorrect teachings they learn from others, their view of the one true God is imperfect. If and when they are given the opportunity to freely and knowingly choose between the Truth who is God, and the imagined construct that they have built up over the course of their lives, we can truly say that they are choosing between God and their "false god", until such time the line between God and "false god" is indistinct.
Everything the Jews know about God is true, yet the Jews do not know everything about God (Neither do we ). The Muslim accepts that there is one true god, yet is taught untruths about His nature(eg Master rather than Father). The JW boldly proclaim That YHWH (whom they call Jehovah) is the one true God, and that Jesus Christ is His only Son but deny the Trinity. The LDS accept that the Father Son and Holy Spirit form one "Godhead" yet imagine that all three began their existance as creatures.
Shoud we as Catholics accept that each of these "has God"? I would think so. Should we accept that they have "enough" God? I would say definately not. Should we attempt to share with each and every one of them the truths taught by the Catholic Church in order to lead them to a closer and clearer relationship with their creator? Absolutely!
Shoud we deny God the opportunity to save them if he so desires?
Regards Doc
|
|
|
setapart
Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 13th, 2007 |
| Location: | Austin, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 117 |
| First Name: | Bill | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Born Catholic, Non-Denominational Charismatic, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 03:49 am |
|
Shoud we as Catholics accept that each of these "has God"? I would think so. Should we accept that they have "enough" God? I would say definately not. Should we attempt to share with each and every one of them the truths taught by the Catholic Church in order to lead them to a closer and clearer relationship with their creator? Absolutely!
Shoud we deny God the opportunity to save them if he so desires?
Regards Doc
20 Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse; Romans 1:20 (NAB)
From the above Scripture and much of this discussion we are able understand that God has revealed Himself through what He has made. The passage is followed by man's degeneration into idolotry and perverson. Obviously there are many people of other religions who want to worship God as they understand Him to be and try to live as best as they good rather than degenerate into perversion.
14 To Greeks and non-Greeks alike, to the wise and the ignorant, I am under obligation; 15 that is why I am eager to preach the gospel also to you in Rome. 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel. It is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: for Jew first, and then Greek. 17 For in it is revealed the righteousness of God from faith to faith; as it is written, "The one who is righteous by faith will live." [26 Romans 1:14-17 (NAB)
There is ONE SURE Way to the Father and that IS the message proclaimed by the Church. Which is the same as what Jesus came to do:
10 For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save what was lost."[ Luke 19:10 (NAB)
This Scripture and others like it where Jesus refers to the lost sheep of Israel show us that Jesus considered those who do not know God through Him are lost.
The Catechism says thus:
47 The Church teaches that the one true God, our Creator and Lord, can be known with certainty from | | |
