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Greg72
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| Joined: | Thu Jan 31st, 2008 |
| Location: | United Kingdom |
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| First Name: | Greg | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Vague theist to Catholic Church |
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 07:11 pm |
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A friend of mine at work is a practicing Muslim and we have both supported each other at work as the only ones in the office with a strong commitment to God. We’ve had a few discussions about our faith and come to a position of mutual disagreement on Jesus and the Bible (just the small things!) but he is clearly keen to continue the discussion – obviously with a view to persuade me towards Islam – and has set up a discussion evening at his house. In many ways I welcome this, there is a great opportunity here clearly - I am also sure that my Muslim friend is going through certain struggles with his own faith and part of his agenda for talking to me is to reassure himself of his own position - however I am increasingly aware of the need to meet people where they are and not blunder into putting people off by introducing the wrong information at the wrong time or by engaging in some battle of wits just to score points. The situation is also further complicated by a couple of other friends coming to the evening who are at best agnostic. They know what the evening is about and are obviously interested enough to attend, but I can imagine dangers in them witnessing two faiths clashing. If anyone has any advice about what topics to focus on or stay away from in this situation then I would be very grateful for help!
Many thanks
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Pani Rose
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| Joined: | Fri Oct 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Irondale, Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 327 |
| First Name: | Rose | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Ruthenian Byzantine in a Melkite Greek Catholic Parish, raised ... |
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 11:12 pm |
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Robert Spencer who is actually a deacon in the Melkite Church, of Arabic heritage, maybe his books would be of assistance. Also Fr. Mitch Pakwa writes a good bit on the subject.
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DrDave
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Mildura, Australia |
| Posts: | 211 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle - Lapsed - Renewed Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Feb 1st, 2008 02:28 am |
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I've looked at some of the "Beginning Apologetics" workbooks, by Jim Burnham and Father Frank Chacon, and they are good, easy introductions to apologetics. I've heard recently on "Catholic Answers Live" that they have a new one out "Beginning Apologetics 9: How To Talk To Muslims!" I would expect it is similarly as good. http://shop.catholic.com currently has the entire set including this one on special (click on 'Radio Offers' -> 'Apologetics Superset')
Also I would reccommend to anyone engaging in this kind of discussion to have a good listen to John Martinoni's FREE talk "Apologetics for the Scripturally Challenged" which is available FREE from his website http://www.biblechristiansociety.com In this talk, while not talking about Islam (or any particular topic for that matter) John gives some great advice on how to structure the conversation. How to raise subjects without offending people, how to answer when you don't know the answer, how to move the conversation from 'me against you' to a common search for Truth. Did I mention it's FREE
Regards Doc
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1227 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nominal Methodist / evangelical non-denom / "Bapticostal" / Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Feb 4th, 2008 07:48 pm |
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You'd have to use discretion and prudence in what material to use and when, but this website is a great collection of answers to Muslim arguments:
Answering Islam (Sam Shamoun)
I met Sam and once participated with him in a sort of dialogue / debate with Muslims. He's Protestant, but in most issues involved with Muslims, the Protestant-Catholic issues don't come up. I myself have done one little debate with a Muslim:
Reply to a Muslim Apologist Concerning the Two Natures of Christ and Trinitarianism (vs. Shabir Ally)
Last edited on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 07:49 pm by Dave Armstrong
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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tedjenczewski
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| Joined: | Thu May 10th, 2007 |
| Location: | Richmond, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 162 |
| First Name: | Ted | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Presbyterian, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Feb 5th, 2008 04:32 am |
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| Hi Greg. Before discussing Islam with your friend I recommend you study some of the Quran, particularly it's controversial teachings about: how to spread the faith; how to properly kill apostates from Islam, how to divide the "booty" gathered in war, how to treat Christians and jews, Islam's super screwed up interpretation of the basic Christian teachings about God (they believe Christians are polytheists who believe Mary is a God), how to conquer unbelievers, to either force infidels to pay the head tax or convert, or kill them etc. Get a paperback edition of the so called "Holy Quran" from Amazon. Also purchase two books "Understanding the Quran" by Mateen Elas and "Islam and Terrorism" by Mark Gabriel. Read the books and underline the verses in the Quran as the authors cite them. THEN you will be prepared to discuss Islam with your friend as you leaf thru the Quran and pick out these verses for discussion. You can compare the teachings on these subjects with teaching from the bible. Pope Benedict's statement about Islam will also be shown true, "Islam has some elements of peace, it has other elements also." I find it difficult to understand why anyone who read the Quran, would actually CONVERT to Islam.
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"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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Annie
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| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 718 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Feb 5th, 2008 07:58 pm |
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| Actually, it's the Noble Koran and what you want is the edition published by King Fahd University Press. It has the English and Arabic on facing pages. A copy was given to me by a man in Australia on a newsgroup about Islam. I inquired about which translation was best and he sent it to me. Ask at your local university Islamic student group how to get a copy.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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hpj0828
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| Joined: | Sun Apr 1st, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 136 |
| First Name: | Henry | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Messianic Jewish believer |
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Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2008 02:17 pm |
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Dear Greg,
I suggest an exchange. You offer to read the Koran and your colleague will agree to read the Injil -- the New Testament.
Muslims revere the Injil as the book of Jesus the Prophet. They have been taught that this book has been corrupted by Christians, but most Muslims have never read it.
Many Muslims have become Christians simply by reading the NT. I have several friends who became Christians in this way. Basically, the more copies that are made available to the Muslim community, the more Muslims can learn about the Christian faith directly from the Bible, instead of from the distortions taught by their Imams. If your friend doesn't want to read the NT, or finishes it, encourage him to pass it on to another Muslim friend who may be interested.
There is also an excellent version of the Jesus Film DVD (a presentation of the life of Jesus from the gospels) which is available with the ability to select one of many different languages used in Muslim nations. If you would like to get a hold of one of these, or could use some specific advice from one of my friends, send me a private message.
Shalom!
Henry
On English Translations of the Koran:
PS. There are many different translations of the Koran into English. Some versions exercise particular "English" in how they render passages that are offensive to Westerners. So the "best" translation according to a Muslim who wants to lead Westerners to Islam, may not be the one which is truest to the Arabic or to contemporary Muslim practice! Such translations may deliberately attempt to soften controversial passages which would be offensive. It is best to get several versions and compare.
An example is an infamous passage Surah 4:34 which encourages husbands to beat their wives. Note that such a beating is not a punishment for disobedience, but rather a discouragement to the wife from potential disobedience to her husband, if the husband merely "fears" that the wife will be disobedient. It is a punishment for a suspected "thought crime".
TEXT FROM THE QURAN, 4:34 in various translations
RODWELL : "Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!"
DAWOOD : "Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme."
PICKTHALL : "Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah has guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great."
ARBERRY: "Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All high, All great."
SHAKIR : Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
ALI : "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all).
Note here that Yousef Ali has added the word "lightly" which is not in the original Arabic. This softens the version for Western ears!
Last edited on Thu Feb 7th, 2008 02:37 pm by hpj0828
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Ali
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| Joined: | Sat Jan 6th, 2007 |
| Location: | Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 622 |
| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2008 06:36 pm |
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tedjenczewski wrote: Hi Greg. Before discussing Islam with your friend I recommend you study some of the Quran, particularly it's controversial teachings about: how to spread the faith; how to properly kill apostates from Islam, how to divide the "booty" gathered in war, how to treat Christians and jews, Islam's super screwed up interpretation of the basic Christian teachings about God (they believe Christians are polytheists who believe Mary is a God), how to conquer unbelievers, to either force infidels to pay the head tax or convert, or kill them etc. Get a paperback edition of the so called "Holy Quran" from Amazon. Also purchase two books "Understanding the Quran" by Mateen Elas and "Islam and Terrorism" by Mark Gabriel. Read the books and underline the verses in the Quran as the authors cite them. THEN you will be prepared to discuss Islam with your friend as you leaf thru the Quran and pick out these verses for discussion. You can compare the teachings on these subjects with teaching from the bible. Pope Benedict's statement about Islam will also be shown true, "Islam has some elements of peace, it has other elements also." I find it difficult to understand why anyone who read the Quran, would actually CONVERT to Islam.
So let me ask, is reading and understanding Quran similar to various Christian groups reading and understanding the Bible? In other words, are there some Muslims (just as there are some Christians) that interpret the Quran (Bible) differently to use it as a source of God/Allah insprired hate ~or~ God/Allah inspried love?
Look at how many Christian demononations there are all basing their beliefs on the Bible, and look at how different those beliefs can be. That awful Westboro Baptist sect comes to mind {shudder}.
There are millions of Muslims, right? But only a handful blowing themselves (and everyone else) up. There are millions of Christians, but only a few spewing hate such as that.
Asking sincerely, not to stir debate.
Ali
Last edited on Thu Feb 7th, 2008 06:39 pm by Ali
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hpj0828
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| Joined: | Sun Apr 1st, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 136 |
| First Name: | Henry | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Messianic Jewish believer |
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Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2008 08:56 pm |
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Ali wrote:
So let me ask, is reading and understanding Quran similar to various Christian groups reading and understanding the Bible? In other words, are there some Muslims (just as there are some Christians) that interpret the Quran (Bible) differently to use it as a source of God/Allah insprired hate ~or~ God/Allah inspried love?
Look at how many Christian demononations there are all basing their beliefs on the Bible, and look at how different those beliefs can be. That awful Westboro Baptist sect comes to mind {shudder}.
There are millions of Muslims, right? But only a handful blowing themselves (and everyone else) up. There are millions of Christians, but only a few spewing hate such as that.
Asking sincerely, not to stir debate.
Ali
Dear Ali,
There are currently moderate Muslims who are seeking to "reinterpret" the Koran so as to make passages like Surah 4:34 (see my earlier post) on the beating of wives less offensive. However, the problem is with the text itself.
You will not find any saying of Jesus or Paul supporting the beating of wives. Yet you find a passage like Surah 4:34 in the Koran which directly encourages this practice. It takes some real "dancing" to interpret this meaning away from the clear sense of the passage. In the case of the NT, there is no such passage to interpret away.
Koran Surah 4:34 tr. SHAKIR : Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
Compare this with the teaching of Eph. 5:28-29:
So, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church. NAS
People who say that "all religions teach the same things" have not taken their texts seriously.
When Christian men beat their wives they are sinning--acting against the direct teaching of the NT. When Muslim men beat their wives they are following the teaching of the Koran.
Jesus teaches that we should love our enemies. The Koran teaches that the faithful should war against the infidels and kill them.
When Christians wage war against others because they have a different religion, such Christians are acting against the teachings of Jesus in the Bible, whom they claim to follow. When Muslims wage war against the infidels because of their beliefs, they are acting in accord with the teaching of Muhammed in the Koran. So the more faithfully Christians live by the teachings of Jesus, the move loving they become to their enemies. Unfortunately, the more faithfully Muslims take the teachings of Muhammed, the more they want to wage war in jihad.
Another reason why Muslims have had such difficulty in reinterpreting the Koran is because of their belief about the nature of revelation.
Christians believe that the Holy Spirit inspired the words of the writers of Scripture, but that these words came through their human vessels using their culture and speech patterns. So, we are not surprised that the writings of the highly trained rabbi the Apostle Paul have a more intellectual and rabbinically-trained character than the writings of the Apostle Peter, who admits that Paul's writings are sometimes difficult to understand! Since this is the case, Christians believe that God works through translations of the Bible from the Hebrew and Greek into modern languages such as English.
Because of this idea that revelation comes applied to a particular time and culture, both Christians and Jews have believed over the centuries that the Bible needs to be constantly reinterpreted according to current conditions and situations. Because of this flexibility, there have been many different interpretations of passages of Scripture and there is space among Christians for differences of interpretation.
The word "Koran" itself means "recitation." Muslims believe that Muhammed was an illiterate businessman who did not write the Koran in Arabic, stamping its words with his own peculiar human personality; rather he recited what he heard word for word directly from Allah via the angel Gabriel--in Medieval Arabic. In fact, there are Arabic words in the Koran whose meaning no Koranic scholar even knows. Although the Arabic of the Koran is Medieval, no modern Arabic adaptation is considered spiritually adequate. Neither is any translation into another language such as English valid. How would those Arabic words which no one understands be translated into English? Attempts to interpret the Koran into Modern conditions must remove the text from its Medieval language and context. If this is considered invalid, then it is very difficult to reinterpret the Koran for modern societies.
Considering the approx. 1 billion Muslims in the world, if only a small percentage, say 10% are radical Muslims who try to literally apply Koranic passages about war against the infidels--this represents an army of 100 million jihadists! A lot more than a handful! Try to fight that many terrorists! This is the size of the problem.
H.
Last edited on Thu Feb 7th, 2008 09:10 pm by hpj0828
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HPJ
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Greg72
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| Joined: | Thu Jan 31st, 2008 |
| Location: | United Kingdom |
| Posts: | 3 |
| First Name: | Greg | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Vague theist to Catholic Church |
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Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 11:47 am |
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Just a quick thank you to everyone who posted answers to my question - lots of really useful info for now and the long term. I had my initial evening with my friend and the conversation went very well, largely just sharing our own experiences of God and I was given the opportunity to talk about the Eucharist and correct some misunderstandings he had about Christianity. Interesting that one of his key criticisms of Christians was the apparent lack of reverence / seriousness about their faith that he had experienced. A lesson for all of us there.
One question that I put to him that seemed to challenge him a bit was this: If somone has a sincere and life changing experience of Allah that leads them onto great and holy things, we as Catholic Christians would accept that this could well have come from God and could be part of a greater spiritual journey. However if someone had a sincere and life changning experience of Jesus as the Son of God and of the certainty of his death and resurrection, that also led them onto great and holy things, how would Islam understand that? His response was that such an experience could not come from God. Although this was his answer, I could see that the inherent imbalance it caused gave him pause for thought.
Anyway. Thanks again.
Greg
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JasPax
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| Joined: | Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 |
| Location: | North Carolina USA |
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| First Name: | James | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Episcopal to Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 03:27 pm |
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Interesting topic.
I have Muslim neighbors - Palestinian in origin. We have maintained a cordial relationship, and I hope that continues. Not long ago I asked him a question that I thought was worth discussing. It was why Muslim countries in general do not allow freedom of religion to the degree we expect and encourage in the west..
Apparently, it is acceptable to lie to an infidel. Either that or his answer was simply face-saving because he insisted that Christians, for example, were free to practice their faith without fear in Muslim, countries.
"How about Saudi Arabia?" I asked.
"Certainly," Just not in the Holy City of Mecca. Then he added, "there are Christians in Iraq."
I told him that I knew this and that those Chaldean Catholics there were being kidnapped and killed while the Iraqi government failed to proptect them.
He would not answer. I just got a long hard look and then I saw that his kind (and very intelligent) wife was looking distressed, so I just let it go.
His television is always tuned to an Arabic satellite channel. Perhaps he doesn't really get the full picture. How many others only get a one-sided view of the world? That is something that should convern us.
What does the Koran teach about tolerance of other faiths?
God's Blessigs,
Last edited on Tue Feb 12th, 2008 03:29 pm by JasPax
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James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
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