 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
Luke12:48
Member
| Joined: | Sat Sep 30th, 2006 |
| Location: | Southeast, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 119 |
| First Name: | Kate | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle catholic, left for many years, returned June 2006 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Jan 14th, 2007 01:41 pm |
|
Good Morning all,
I have been asked to answer several questions for developing a statement of faith for our co-op which includes both Christian and Catholic families. I am hoping for wording that is very general so that both sides will be comfortable signing but am starting to suspect that this is not possible. None of the families are really looking for this "statement" (we have co-existed happily for the last 2 years) but it may be required by the owners of the location (a baptist church) where we hope to meet next year. Because this will affect families other than my own, I really want to be sure I am providing the correct information even though I suspect that this will be the end of our joint co-op.
The questions posed were--
Who is the head of the church?
Christ (included 1552 from the catechism)
(also included 881, 936 and 2034 on the pope since I knew where she was going on this one)
Are we saved by faith alone?
No (sent catechism 1021 and 1815 and James 2:24 and Matthew 7:21)
Did Jesus live a perfect sinless life?
Yes (catechism 467)
Did Jesus keep all of the commandments and the law?
This one was more difficult as I am not sure what law--Jewish, Roman?? My initial answer is Yes to the commandments and to Roman law (render unto Caesar) but I was less sure on Jewish as there are several instances in which the Jewish leaders are upset with his healing on the sabbath etc. but he answers them with an appropriate explanantion.
Am I correct in these answers?
Also, while I know we cannot sign something saying we are saved by faith alone, it was suggested that the word "alone" be removed because we all agree that faith is required to be saved. This however strikes me as just as invalid in the sense of a sin of omission. Correct?
I know I am probably grasping at straws but I will do what I can to at least try to work it out because the kids have made friends here and it works well for us.
Thank you.
Kate
Last edited on Sun Jan 14th, 2007 01:47 pm by Luke12:48
|
|
|
BodRod
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 720 |
| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Jan 14th, 2007 02:14 pm |
|
Hi Kate,
<<<...both Christian and Catholic families...>>>
I think I will object to that phrase. Not only are Catholics Christians but they were the first Christians. As stated in your posting, the phrase could be misleading to some readers. 
____________________
Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
|
|
|
Luke12:48
Member
| Joined: | Sat Sep 30th, 2006 |
| Location: | Southeast, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 119 |
| First Name: | Kate | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle catholic, left for many years, returned June 2006 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Jan 14th, 2007 02:24 pm |
|
You are right! I should be more careful but in our group, there is no question of that misunderstanding so we are relaxed with our terminology. How about "Catholic Christians and other Christian denominations." 
|
|
|
Juan
Member
| Joined: | Tue Oct 17th, 2006 |
| Location: | Texas USA |
| Posts: | 247 |
| First Name: | unregister | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | unregister |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Jan 14th, 2007 03:08 pm |
|
Good Morning all,
Hi,
I have been asked to answer several questions for developing a statement of faith for our co-op which includes both Christian and Catholic families. I am hoping for wording that is very general so that both sides will be comfortable signing but am starting to suspect that this is not possible. None of the families are really looking for this "statement" (we have co-existed happily for the last 2 years) but it may be required by the owners of the location (a baptist church) where we hope to meet next year. Because this will affect families other than my own, I really want to be sure I am providing the correct information even though I suspect that this will be the end of our joint co-op.
That's too bad. What's the purpose of the co-op?
The questions posed were--
Who is the head of the church?
Christ (included 1552 from the catechism)
(also included 881, 936 and 2034 on the pope since I knew where she was going on this one)
Good answer.
Are we saved by faith alone?
No (sent catechism 1021 and 1815 and James 2:24 and Matthew 7:21)
Good answer.
Did Jesus live a perfect sinless life?
Yes (catechism 467)
Correct.
Did Jesus keep all of the commandments and the law?
Yes.
This one was more difficult as I am not sure what law--Jewish, Roman?? My initial
answer is Yes to the commandments and to Roman law (render unto Caesar) but I was less sure on Jewish as there are several instances in which the Jewish leaders are upset with his healing on the sabbath etc. but he answers them with an appropriate explanantion.
You are correct. His understanding of the Sabbath was more correct than their's.
Am I correct in these answers?
So far as I can see.
Also, while I know we cannot sign something saying we are saved by faith alone, it was suggested that the word "alone" be removed because we all agree that faith is required to be saved. This however strikes me as just as invalid in the sense of a sin of omission. Correct?
No. We believe our faith is shown forth in our works. Therefore, a faith without works is not faith at all. In other words, dropping the word "alone" is enough and satisfies Catholic doctrine.
How about saying we are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8)? The Catholic Church has no objection to that statement either.
I know I am probably grasping at straws but I will do what I can to at least try to work it out because the kids have made friends here and it works well for us.
It must be important to you.
Thank you.
Kate
May God bless you,
Juan
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4981 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Jan 14th, 2007 03:44 pm |
|
Luke12:48 wrote: I have been asked to answer several questions for developing a statement of faith for our co-op which includes both Christian and Catholic families.
This is improper and offensive terminology. Catholics are Christians. You could say " ... our Christian co-op, which includes families that are Catholic as well as members of other Christian faith communities." However, why can't you just say Christian? Is it required that you list Catholics separately? How about just " ... Christian co-op"?
I am hoping for wording that is very general so that both sides will be comfortable signing but am starting to suspect that this is not possible.
There is no reason it should not be possible, unless the Baptist church you wish to use requires specific answers that are "deal-breakers" for Catholics and other, more mainstream Protestant groups.
Who is the head of the church? Christ (included 1552 from the catechism) (also included 881, 936 and 2034 on the pope since I knew where she was going on this one)
This is fine.
Are we saved by faith alone? No (sent catechism 1021 and 1815 and James 2:24 and Matthew 7:21)
Can you say "We are saved by faith but not by faith alone. Our faith stimulates an active response of love and forgiveness, especially to the least of God's people (Matt 25:31-46)." (Note that in describing the Last Judgement in Matthew, Jesus does not use the word "faith.") See CCC 166ff and especially 183:
183 Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mk 16:16).
Did Jesus live a perfect sinless life? Yes (catechism 467)
Fine.
Did Jesus keep all of the commandments and the law? This one was more difficult as I am not sure what law--Jewish, Roman?? My initial answer is Yes to the commandments and to Roman law (render unto Caesar) but I was less sure on Jewish as there are several instances in which the Jewish leaders are upset with his healing on the sabbath etc. but he answers them with an appropriate explanantion.
Jesus kept the spirit of Mosaic law, not the Pharisee's interpretations of the law. It was the Pharisees who questioned Jesus' observance, and the Pharisees happened to be in charge of the Temple at the time. Jesus was challenging the Pharisees when he drove the money changers out of the Temple. Even Pilate acknowledged his observance of Roman law when he initially refused to condemn him. So the answer is yes, Jesus kept all of the commandments and the law.
Jewish interpretation of the Law can sometimes be so legalistic as to border on ridiculous. For example, it is prohibited to flick on a light switch, but it's OK to flick a switch which in turn flicks the light switch. The person performs the same action either way, but one is judged prohibited "work" and the other is not. This is the type of "law" Jesus ignored.
Also, while I know we cannot sign something saying we are saved by faith alone, it was suggested that the word "alone" be removed because we all agree that faith is required to be saved. This however strikes me as just as invalid in the sense of a sin of omission. Correct?
No. We are saved by faith. See CCC183 I quoted above. The works we perform are our response to God's freely given gift. Lutherans and Methodists have signed a Joint Declaration on Justification with the Catholic Church, and we all agree that we are not saved by faith alone, and nowhere does the bible say we are saved by faith alone. If you are required to agree that we are saved by faith alone, this will be a deal breaker.
You can also cite the following from the CCC:
1814 Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself. By faith "man freely commits his entire self to God." For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God's will. "The righteous shall live by faith." Living faith "work[s] through charity."
1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it. But "faith apart from works is dead": when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.
1816 The disciple of Christ must not only keep the faith and live on it, but also profess it, confidently bear witness to it, and spread it: "All however must be prepared to confess Christ before men and to follow him along the way of the Cross, amidst the persecutions which the Church never lacks." Service of and witness to the faith are necessary for salvation: "So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven."
Is there no other place you can meet? Many libraries have public meeting rooms available. Banks, schools, recreation facilities, and even Catholic churches can usually make meeting rooms available for free for worthwhile groups.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
Luke12:48
Member
| Joined: | Sat Sep 30th, 2006 |
| Location: | Southeast, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 119 |
| First Name: | Kate | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle catholic, left for many years, returned June 2006 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Jan 14th, 2007 04:02 pm |
|
Hi Juan.
That's too bad. What's the purpose of the co-op?
supplemental eduacation for homeschool families
No. We believe our faith is shown forth in our works. Therefore, a faith without works is not faith at all. In other words, dropping the word "alone" is enough and satisfies Catholic doctrine.
ok--then I am confused because the a priest just told me the opposite - not that he couldn't be wrong but is it not misleading to drop the word alone?
How about saying we are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8)?
Hmmm. I like this better as there is no question of being misleading although I don't know if they will go for it. I don't envy the person writing this as she also must satisfy several denominations with different ideas. I personally would just find another place to meet but the price is right on this one. As with anything, you get what you pay for and the lower price means more work to make it fit.
It must be important to you.
It is important to the kids but we will work it out either way. I will not lose sleep in that if it was meant to be, it will work out. There is another group --all Catholic --that I am going to look into as well.
Thank you for the answers. Knowing that most were correct helps me think we might hit a common ground with a little more work.
Kate
|
|
|
Juan
Member
| Joined: | Tue Oct 17th, 2006 |
| Location: | Texas USA |
| Posts: | 247 |
| First Name: | unregister | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | unregister |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Jan 14th, 2007 08:39 pm |
|
Hi Kate,
I'm also a Homeschooler and we left a co-op of this type because Catholics were the minority and many of the Protestants who would get up to speak at the meetings would begin by saying, "I was once Catholic, but now I'm saved!" To loud applause.
We didn't want our children hearing those things. So we, the Catholic families in this group, got out and founded a Catholic homeschool group of our own. Of course, that was about 15 years ago.
I hope that isn't the case in your co-op.
supplemental eduacation for homeschool families
We've homeschooled four children and hadn't had a problem. The Public Library was sufficient but we also bought books at school sales, used books and other such places. Education doesn't change and the older books were superior to the new in many ways. Especially the old Catholic books.
Do you mean extra-curricular activities, such as drama, sports, etc?
ok--then I am confused because the a priest just told me the opposite - not that he couldn't be wrong but is it not misleading to drop the word alone?
I suppose its confusing to some. I don't see it that way. To me, faith alone is dead faith. Faith itself needs no further clarification:
James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
It isn't as though faith and works are two different things. Works of God are works of faith in God. We work because we believe in God.
But, no need to debate with a priest. He does have a point.
Hmmm. I like this better as there is no question of being misleading although I don't know if they will go for it. I don't envy the person writing this as she also must satisfy several denominations with different ideas. I personally would just find another place to meet but the price is right on this one. As with anything, you get what you pay for and the lower price means more work to make it fit.
Remember, what does it profit a man...
Somethings aren't worth it. All I know is everytime I've tried to hook up with Protestants, sooner or later, they've tried to proselytize my children. Luckily my children are well versed in their faith. And they gave as good as they got. But I would hate for them to constantly go through that.
It is important to the kids but we will work it out either way. I will not lose sleep in that if it was meant to be, it will work out. There is another group --all Catholic --that I am going to look into as well.
I understand. Although it is true that socialization of children is overblown by secular teaching. It is also true that children love to be around children.
We learned, with our first set, that parents can really overcompensate for that. We tried to place our children in every sport and activity that was available. It really ran us ragged. The children had fun though.
However, our last set, (we have four children, our first two were born 87 and 89, our last two 97 and 99) hasn't had those activities. But we meet with Catholic Homeschoolers once a week and let the children play.
Thank you for the answers. Knowing that most were correct helps me think we might hit a common ground with a little more work.
You are welcome.
sincerely,
Juan
|
|
|
Luke12:48
Member
| Joined: | Sat Sep 30th, 2006 |
| Location: | Southeast, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 119 |
| First Name: | Kate | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle catholic, left for many years, returned June 2006 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Jan 14th, 2007 09:10 pm |
|
This is improper and offensive terminology.
Rick,
It was my terminology and I did not intend to be offensive but was simply trying to indicate that only some of the group are Catholic. We all refer to it as a Christian co-op normally and usually don't mention that some are Catholic. I mentioned it here only to indicate where the difficulty might arise in drafting a statement that all could sign. I should have chosen my words more carefully. I apologize.
Can you say "We are saved by faith but not by faith alone.
There are others that would object to this so it is definately a deal breaker.
Is there no other place you can meet?
I actually had them tour our church but the difference is that the other location is offering the space for free as part of their ministry and we need a particularly large space as we have 6-8 different areas in use at any given period of the day and ofer a full day of joint classes.
Thank you
Kate
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4981 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Jan 14th, 2007 09:22 pm |
|
Luke12:48 wrote: This is improper and offensive terminology.
It was my terminology and I did not intend to be offensive but was simply trying to indicate that only some of the group are Catholic.
OK, I misunderstood. I thought this was a phrase they wanted you to agree to, and I was pointing out that it is unacceptable.
David will be back tomorrow. He has a Protestant background and has worked directly with many Protestants on the road to Rome, and no doubt he will have suggestions as well. If you have another day to wait, I would suggest giving David a chance for input. He's better at looking at things from a Protestant perspective. We cradle Catholics can't always do that.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
Luke12:48
Member
| Joined: | Sat Sep 30th, 2006 |
| Location: | Southeast, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 119 |
| First Name: | Kate | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle catholic, left for many years, returned June 2006 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Jan 14th, 2007 09:25 pm |
|
I hope that isn't the case in your co-op.
Not at all. It has been fine and even now, this is not the choice of those in the group but is coming from outside. Our only difficulty so far has been in the teaching of creation vs evolution as I am the science teacher and had issues with the textbook that has been used in the past but we were able work through it together.
Do you mean extra-curricular activities, such as drama, sports, etc?
No, we do different things at different grade levels but it is essentially science, history, language arts, art, drama and electives.
Remember, what does it profit a man...
Yes, I do try to keep this in mind especially in light of the fact that my children are not well versed and we have a long way to go. I must balance things carefully but it is not just up to me. I would be running the other way if I felt any of this was going on. Fortunately, there has been much respect on both sides and we have been very lucky.
we have four children, our first two were born 87 and 89, our last two 97 and 99
You are brave to do it twice!!!! We also are homeschooling four and although we limit activities, I think it is important for them to be exposed to many different people and so doing some schoolwork with others adds another group we are exposed to. There are maybe 50 or more in this group (I don't know all the highschoolers) and it has been good up until now. It may be time for me to explore other options and keep in touch with a few families socially.
Thank you for all the help.
Kate
|
|
|
Juan
Member
| Joined: | Tue Oct 17th, 2006 |
| Location: | Texas USA |
| Posts: | 247 |
| First Name: | unregister | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | unregister |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Jan 15th, 2007 09:13 am |
|
Just a thought. I wonder if they would accept the Apostles' Creed?
Juan
|
|
|
Current time is 12:08 pm | |
|
|
|
|
|
