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GoFisher
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Posted: Sat Jan 27th, 2007 09:20 pm |
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Will some moderators speak to this issue? I notice there is a difference between ecumenism that is among Christians and inter-religious dialog that is between non-Christian religions and The Church.
Last edited on Sat Jan 27th, 2007 09:21 pm by GoFisher
____________________
Love, hear + obey God: go fish! (me)
+ The Word became flesh... (St. John 1:14)
Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. (St. Jerome)
+ Follow Me... fishers of men. (St. Matthew quotes The Lord Jesus)
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Jan 27th, 2007 09:26 pm |
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GoFisher wrote: Will some moderators speak to this issue?
What issue? I don't understand your question.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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GoFisher
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Posted: Sat Jan 27th, 2007 09:55 pm |
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I meant question, not issue. No one had added a question to the topical question there, the issue to be discussed in this particular room.
One example of ecumenism is: I sang at an annual choir fest of many churches. The location rotates between members of the group. The group is actually a committee that meets for serving the needs of the local community, including low income housing issues. The choirs of the churches involved were invited to sing together. It was fun, and folks asked each other about the songs they sang. The unfortunate thing was that there were so many groups that it ran long and folks did not chat with each other much after the event.
Meanwhile, we have inter-religious dialog with an example being on the same page as an article about the pope asking Turkey to allow freedom of religion and law to Catholics in Turkey.
Hopefully, we are moving forward on both fronts. Blessings to you.
____________________
Love, hear + obey God: go fish! (me)
+ The Word became flesh... (St. John 1:14)
Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. (St. Jerome)
+ Follow Me... fishers of men. (St. Matthew quotes The Lord Jesus)
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Juan
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Posted: Sun Jan 28th, 2007 05:19 pm |
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Christianity and non-Christians, Vive La Difference!
Will some moderators speak to this issue?
I'm not a moderator, but, if I understand the question, I'd say the first assumption is wrong.
1. Vive la Difference!
When it pertains to sex, yes!
But when it pertains to faith, no!
Jesus gave us a mandate:
Matthew 28:
18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
849 The missionary mandate. "Having been divinely sent to the nations that she might be 'the universal sacrament of salvation,' the Church, in obedience to the command of her founder and because it is demanded by her own essential universality, strives to preach the Gospel to all men": "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and Lo, I am with you always, until the close of the age."
2. I notice there is a difference between ecumenism that is among Christians and inter-religious dialog that is between non-Christian religions and The Church.
But if you're asking, why do we treat nonCatholic Christians and non-Christians differently? I'd say it is because their religions are so fundamentally different from our own.
When it comes to the Judeo-Christian religions, we have common ground where we can argue and discuss Biblical interpretation. But when we speak of Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist, we really have to speak first with the universal language of love in action, then move on to understanding of doctrine. At least that is my opinion.
Sincerely,
Juan
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GoFisher
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Posted: Mon Jan 29th, 2007 04:08 pm |
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Hi Juan. Thanks for your quotes.
I am wondering why it appears that non-Catholic Christians seem to be treated as if they are rebellious teenagers, but we respect non-Christian religions as if they are children who don't know any better and might make it to Heaven even without our obeying The Great Commission you have quoted above from The Lord's words to us in Matthew 28. Meanwhile, part of both of these are probably true about everyone.
For example, we should not treat every Lutheran or any other of the 18,000 or so types of non-Catholic Christians around today as if he or she were actually formerly Father Martin Luther himself.
As Paul asked the Roman Christians, "How can they hear without a preacher?"
Thanks for your comments.
____________________
Love, hear + obey God: go fish! (me)
+ The Word became flesh... (St. John 1:14)
Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. (St. Jerome)
+ Follow Me... fishers of men. (St. Matthew quotes The Lord Jesus)
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brian
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Posted: Mon Feb 5th, 2007 02:26 am |
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| I relate to your struggle. personally i love the fact that CAtholics believe in a way to salvation for those who have not heard. But i hate when they go so far as use this as an excuse to not evangelize or see a need to. I think it is wrong to assume that people who are not Christians all go to damnation carte blanche. but i think it must be just as bad to assmue they all go to heaven. This is an issue that I think maybe needs to be very carefully explained to people so they do not develop a relativistic/pluralistic morality/worldview.
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Darlene
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Posted: Mon Feb 5th, 2007 05:22 pm |
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Hello All,
Perhaps non-Catholic Christians being treated as rebellious teenagers has to do with the responsibility issue. Maybe the Catholic Church views Christians outside of the Catholic faith as being held more responsible for their resistance to Catholicism than non-Christians. Of course, truth is, I really don't know.
I know that I do find comfort and consolation in the way Catholics view others who are not of the Catholic faith. They are very kind and much less judgmental than say....Fundamentalist and Evangelicals. So often, many Protestants are harsh in their views toward Catholics. Yet the reverse is not true. In this way, Catholicism is much more loving and respectful of other human beings.
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Prayerie Pal
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Posted: Tue Apr 10th, 2007 11:20 pm |
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I know that I do find comfort and consolation in the way Catholics view others who are not of the Catholic faith. They are very kind and much less judgmental than say....Fundamentalist and Evangelicals. So often, many Protestants are harsh in their views toward Catholics. Yet the reverse is not true. In this way, Catholicism is much more loving and respectful of other human beings.
Amen, Darlene! I have found that the Catholics I've known all my life, all 50+ years that they've been MUCH more "tolerant" of other faiths in Christendom. I grew up in the Methodist Church and never heard any Anti Catholic rhetoric from any in my family or any of our friends.
On the other hand, from Fundamentalists and Evangelicals, it was quite the opposite. I'm not saying that to be harsh on them, but for the most part, they have been WAY harsh and prejudiced against Catholics! And of course, once you find some EX Catholics in the bunch, LOOK OUT! They're the worst of all!
YIPES.
PAX,
pp
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God gave us memory so we could have roses in winter.
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lia
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Posted: Tue Apr 10th, 2007 11:22 pm |
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I think it is because the Catholic Church acknowledges the "truths" in non-Christian religions. It's not the fault of non-Christians why they don't believe in Christianity. I believe we are to blame (fault) for this. Most, if not all heads of non-Christian religions admire and respect Jesus. But that's just it. We are not Jesus and most of the time, we are not "Jesus-like" in the way we live our lives.
If only we can point to them their "truth" in our TRUTH...I believe we'll have a better success of converting them to Catholicism. Although I have not studied extensively non-Christian religions I'm familiar with, I've learned what they have to offer. And frankly speaking, they can also be found in Catholic teachings and in a more evolved and devolped form.
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Man can't b forced 2 accept the truth.He can b drawn toward the truth only by his own nature, that is, by his own freedom w/c commits him 2 search sincerely 4 truth & when he finds it, 2 adhere 2 it both in his conviction & his behavior.-- JP2
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dblake22
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Posted: Sun Sep 23rd, 2007 12:56 pm |
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Darlene wrote: I know that I do find comfort and consolation in the way Catholics view others who are not of the Catholic faith. They are very kind and much less judgmental than say....Fundamentalist and Evangelicals. So often, many Protestants are harsh in their views toward Catholics. Yet the reverse is not true. In this way, Catholicism is much more loving and respectful of other human beings.
My experience is just the opposite and let me be specific. I judge it based on who is allowed to the rail. I can go to any number of churches (Baptist, Presbyterian, AOG, Reformed, Nazarene, SDA, etc.) and be welcomed to participate in Communion as a member of the family, a brother in the Lord. Such is not the case should I go to Mass.
How hollow the words "separated brother" sound when I am denied a place at the table. Who is being "judgmental"? and who is risking the judgment of God?Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [not feed] one of the least of these [my brethren], ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment. (Matthew 25:45-46)
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Sep 23rd, 2007 01:38 pm |
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dblake22 wrote: Darlene wrote: I know that I do find comfort and consolation in the way Catholics view others who are not of the Catholic faith. They are very kind and much less judgmental than say....Fundamentalist and Evangelicals. So often, many Protestants are harsh in their views toward Catholics. Yet the reverse is not true. In this way, Catholicism is much more loving and respectful of other human beings.
My experience is just the opposite and let me be specific. I judge it based on who is allowed to the rail.
That is not valid according to Catholic teaching. We believe that the Eucharist is truly the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. By doctrine, other separated Christians do not. We cannot permit them to profane the sacrament or endanger their own souls by willingly allowing them to accept what they do not believe.
When I say "amen" when I receive the Eucharist, I am willingly expressing faith in all that the Catholic Church teaches and believes. By my choice, I cannot receive communion in any other church because I do not believe what they teach, whether I am permitted to receive communion there or not. I have never and will never go "to the rail" in any other church. And a Catholic who receives communion without accepting all that the Church teaches and believes is doing so fraudulently, and will be judged accordingly.
I will never attend a Ku Klux Klan rally either, even if I am invited, because I do not believe what they believe. Nor will I attend a "Planned Parenthood" meeting, or functions of any of several other groups, because I do not believe what they believe.
If you accept and believe all that the Catholic Church teaches and believes, then you are welcomed at our "rail". We do require that you first make that profession of belief publicly. That's how a baptized Christian becomes Catholic.
Read John 6. Jesus was all about inclusion, but he required them to believe what he taught, and if they didn't he let them walk away. Read Matthew 25. Those who do not follow the teachings of Jesus will be condemned. It's not about inclusion, it's about belief, faith, and practice.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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BodRod
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Posted: Sun Sep 23rd, 2007 03:50 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: And a Catholic who receives communion without accepting all that the Church teaches and believes is doing so fraudulently, and will be judged accordingly.
Rick, are you saying that the person who receives must believe all that the Church teaches about everything or all that the Church teaches about the Holy Communion?
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Sep 23rd, 2007 05:36 pm |
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BodRod wrote: CajunRick wrote: And a Catholic who receives communion without accepting all that the Church teaches and believes is doing so fraudulently, and will be judged accordingly.
Rick, are you saying that the person who receives must believe all that the Church teaches about everything or all that the Church teaches about the Holy Communion?
In paragraph 1355 of the Catechism, the Church quotes St. Justin the Martyr:
Because this bread and wine have been made Eucharist ("eucharisted," according to an ancient expression), "we call this food Eucharist, and no one may take part in it unless he believes that what we teach is true, has received baptism for the forgiveness of sins and new birth, and lives in keeping with what Christ taught." (Emphasis added)
When a non-Catholic Christian joins the Church, he declares, "I accept and believe all that the Catholic Church teaches and believes" or words to that effect.
In those areas where the Church has made a definitive pronouncement (dogma or doctrine) the recipient must accept and believe all that the Catholic Church teaches and believes in order to receive worthily. In those areas where no definitive pronouncement has been made, the recipient must follow the current teaching of the Church.
In some areas, it is permitted to disagree in theory but not in practice, to think differently but not to do differently. The freedom to disagree does not give us the freedom to disobey. And it is never permitted to teach in opposition to the teaching of the Church.
So the answer to the question is yes, a person who receives Eucharist must believe all that the Catholic Church teaches and believes. Not the priest or the bishop or even the pope, but the Church.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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BodRod
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Posted: Sun Sep 23rd, 2007 06:34 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: So the answer to the question is yes, a person who receives Eucharist must believe all that the Catholic Church teaches and believes. Not the priest or the bishop or even the pope, but the Church.
As I recall, (I am too lazy to look it up) the order was to into all the world preaching the Gospel... etc. so it would seem that the teachings of the Church would be the preaching of the Gospel and not necessarily all of the other writings and opinions in the Church. To do otherwise would put us back like they believed in Jewish times where 10 Commandments from God turned into 600+ rules by Moses et al.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Sep 23rd, 2007 06:45 pm |
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BodRod wrote: CajunRick wrote: So the answer to the question is yes, a person who receives Eucharist must believe all that the Catholic Church teaches and believes. Not the priest or the bishop or even the pope, but the Church.
As I recall, (I am too lazy to look it up) the order was to into all the world preaching the Gospel... etc. so it would seem that the teachings of the Church would be the preaching of the Gospel and not necessarily all of the other writings and opinions in the Church.
All of the teachings of the Church are part of the proclaimation of the Gospel. Which teachings would you consider optional?
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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JasPax
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Posted: Sun Sep 23rd, 2007 06:54 pm |
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Hey Criff:
The difference is that those 600+ rules you mentioned are not part of the Church established by Jesus Christ. Now we have the real deal. The New Covenant.
God Bless,
____________________
James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
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BodRod
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Posted: Sun Sep 23rd, 2007 08:39 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: All of the teachings of the Church are part of the proclaimation of the Gospel. Which teachings would you consider optional?
Point 1. My mind goes waaaaaaaaay back to when I taught science and as part of science history and Church history, the church held that the Sun went around the Earth, a belief that went back hundreds of years. The Church was wrong both in her concept of that situation and in her requirement that everyone believe the error. Such an situation could develop in the future. One of the good things about the Church is that she does not rush into new ideas. This approach adds considerable stability the her teachings. However, the same approach can also develop into a problem.
Point 2. The Church is run by humans. Even the most enlightened humans make mistakes. (I believe that is why we have Reconciliation.) So to be honest and realistic, at some point in the future the Church could be wrong again about something. I don't believe it is something we need to worry about but it could happen.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Sep 23rd, 2007 08:48 pm |
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BodRod wrote: CajunRick wrote: All of the teachings of the Church are part of the proclaimation of the Gospel. Which teachings would you consider optional?
Point 1. My mind goes waaaaaaaaay back to when I taught science and as part of science history and Church history, the church held that the Sun went around the Earth, a belief that went back hundreds of years. The Church was wrong both in her concept of that situation and in her requirement that everyone believe the error. Such an situation could develop in the future. One of the good things about the Church is that she does not rush into new ideas. This approach adds considerable stability the her teachings. However, the same approach can also develop into a problem.
The binding teachings of the Church deal only with faith and morals, not science, history, or any other discipline. The belief that the Church taught that everyone believe the error was itself an error as it was never a declared doctrine of the Church. The Church today teaches that scientific reality is a revelation of God along with scripture and the two cannot conflict. If what the Church teaches is proven wrong by science, then the Church must yield to reality as revealed by God in the physical world. However, as is the case today with evolution, the teachings of the Church in that area are not doctrine and are not part of the Magisterial teaching of the Church, and thus are not binding.
Point 2. The Church is run by humans. Even the most enlightened humans make mistakes. (I believe that is why we have Reconciliation.) So to be honest and realistic, at some point in the future the Church could be wrong again about something. I don't believe it is something we need to worry about but it could happen.
The Church cannot be wrong in proclaiming doctrine on matters of faith and morals. It is protected from error by the Holy Spirit. Issues on matters other than faith and morals, or pronouncements that are not doctrinal, are not part of the Magisterial teaching of the Church.
The requirement is not that we believe everything that the Church or its leaders say. It is that we accept and believe all that "the Church" (meaning the full Magisterial authority of the ages) teaches and believes. And that cannot be wrong.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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BodRod
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Posted: Sun Sep 23rd, 2007 09:24 pm |
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| OK. Got it. Thanks.
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Darlene
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Posted: Sun Sep 23rd, 2007 10:27 pm |
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BodRod wrote: CajunRick wrote: And a Catholic who receives communion without accepting all that the Church teaches and believes is doing so fraudulently, and will be judged accordingly.
Rick, are you saying that the person who receives must believe all that the Church teaches about everything or all that the Church teaches about the Holy Communion?
I've come to realize the gravity of "accepting all that the Church teaches and believes," and therefore, am at peace about refraining from RCIA classes. There are those folks, either through poor catechesis, not being attentive in class, or apathy, decide to become Catholic even though they don't believe all that the Church teaches. Then once they are Catholic, they have a gripe. They say something to the effect that if they knew the Church taught that particular doctrine/dogma, they never would have become Catholic. So they decide to renege on their decision. Somehow, that excuse just doesn't cut it. I don't want to be counted among those folks. Seems to me one must be wearing blinders if they don't understand the serousness of becoming Catholic and what that decision means.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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dblake22
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Posted: Thu Sep 27th, 2007 02:52 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: dblake22 wrote:My experience is just the opposite and let me be specific. I judge it based on who is allowed to the rail.
We believe that the Eucharist is truly the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. By doctrine, other separated Christians do not. We cannot permit them to profane the sacrament or endanger their own souls by willingly allowing them to accept what they do not believe. [Emphasis added.]
When I say "amen" when I receive the Eucharist, I am willingly expressing faith in all that the Catholic Church teaches and believes. . . . A Catholic who receives communion without accepting all that the Church teaches and believes is doing so fraudulently, and will be judged accordingly.
Those are very strong words, Rick, and well taken. However, there is a double standard here. The Church seems to have more concern for the souls of the non-Catholic Christian than it does for the Catholic. I have heard that surveys repeatedly state that greater than 50% of Catholics use or condone artificial birth control and, worse yet, explicitly or implicitly support abortion. Having the greater light makes the danger to their souls and the profanation of the sacrament so much greater. Yet the Church takes no step to protect them from this mortal sin, instead leaving them to the judgment of God.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Sep 27th, 2007 10:59 pm |
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dblake22 wrote: CajunRick wrote: dblake22 wrote:My experience is just the opposite and let me be specific. I judge it based on who is allowed to the rail.
We believe that the Eucharist is truly the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. By doctrine, other separated Christians do not. We cannot permit them to profane the sacrament or endanger their own souls by willingly allowing them to accept what they do not believe. [Emphasis added.]
The Church seems to have more concern for the souls of the non-Catholic Christian than it does for the Catholic.
Have you read Humanae Vitae? Have you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Have you read John Paul II's Theology of the Body? Have you studied the Church's teaching on artificial contraception, euthanasia, abortion, social justice. and hundreds (if not thousands) of other matters of faith and morals?
The Church has made its position very clear. I doubt if you can find a single Catholic anywhere on earth who is not aware of the Church's teaching on each of these matters. Some may choose to ignore them, and some priests may choose not to "offend" their parishioners by telling them about sin, but you certainly cannot blame the Catholic Church for that. Every Catholic knows very well that they cannot receive the Eucharist if they are in a state of mortal sin. If they have malformed their consciences to believe that cohabitation, artificial contraception, abortion, homosexual behavior, etc., are not sins, they will answer to God. Again, the Church has made its teachings quite clear, and you will be hard-pressed to find a single Catholic anywhere in the world who is not aware of them.
Ask any Catholic. Don't ask them if artificial birth control is a sin. Ask them if the Church says artificial birth control is wrong. They will say yes, and then they will rationalize it. They will tell you the Church is stuck in the dark ages, or it doesn't apply to them, but they will not tell you they've never heard it. They will not be surprised by the "revelation" that the Church says certain things are wrong.
So don't tell me the Church doesn't plainly teach right from wrong. Don't tell me the gospel is not preached in the Catholic Church. I've been there practically every Sunday for the last half a century. And what I've read and what I've learned is available to anyone. Most of it is available for free. You can read the Catechism on the Internet, or at most libraries. If you walk into any Catholic church and ask, chances are they'll give you a copy for free if you can't afford it. The Bible, too (the complete bible, the Catholic one). The Code of Canon Law is on the Internet, too, as are all the writings of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church, and most Conciliar and Papal documents and writings. Or you can just go to a Catholic church and you'll hear a major chunk of the bible, much more than you'll hear in any Protestant church (except those that have "borrowed" the Catholic Lectionary and "revised " it the way they "revised" the Catholic faith, by leaving out the parts they didn't like).
The Church truly cares about the "cafeteria Catholics" who pick and choose teachings. But it does not demand that every Catholic who takes the Eucharist complete a test to make sure they know, understand, and believe all that the Catholic Church teaches and believes. In case you don't remember, Jesus didn't either. He didn't ask the good thief on the cross if he understood all the articles of faith Jesus taught during his public ministry. He didn't ask the woman caught in adultery if she admitted her sin. He didn't ask the woman at the well if she gave her cloak to the homeless. They came to him and he accepted them. The only ones he rejected are those who publicly rejected the faith: The Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes. And our Church tells us to refuse communion to those who publicly act against the teachings of the Church, like doctors who perform abortions and politicians who materially cooperate by making the murder of helpless unborn children free and easy. And just because some priests and bishops refuse to uphold the teachings, and some parishioners refuse to accept the teaching, doesn't change the teaching.
Jesus said humans were to be married only once. He said man must not divide what God has joined. Every church in the world today accepts divorce. Oh, wait, there's one exception. There is one Church that upholds the plain teaching of our Lord and Savior on the indissolubly of marriage. I wonder what Church that might be?
Prior to 1932, you would have had a hard time finding a church that allowed artificial contraception. Since that time, every church has accepted artificial contraception. Oh, wait, there's one exception. There is one Church that still teachings that artificial contraception is wrong. I wonder what Church that might be?
I wonder what church has not changed its doctrine by popular vote? I wonder what church has kept its teachings constant? I wonder what church has made it's teachings so publicly available?
I wonder.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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GoFisher
Member
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