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Luke12:48
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Posted: Sat Feb 24th, 2007 02:09 pm |
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Our homeschool co-op is again looking at trying to come up with a joint statement of faith. The proposal is below in blue with my answer in red and quotes from CCC in black. Since I am representing the other catholic families, I really want to be sure my answers are correct.
Thank you in advance for any and all opinions.
· We believe in one God, the Creator of all things, who reveals himself as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Fine
14 The profession of faith summarizes the gifts that God gives man: as the Author of all that is good; as Redeemer; and as Sanctifier. It develops these in the three chapters on our baptismal faith in the one God: the almighty Father, the Creator; his Son Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior; and the Holy Spirit, the Sanctifier, in the Holy Church
233 Christians are baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: not in their names, for there is only one God, the almighty Father, his only Son and the Holy Spirit: the Most Holy Trinity.
· We believe in Jesus Christ, who is fully God and fully man at the same time, who became like us to bring about our salvation. Fine
480 Jesus Christ is true God and true man, in the unity of his divine person; for this reason he is the one and only mediator between God and men.
· We believe that the Bible is the inspired, infallible Word of God, giving us all we need to know about how to be saved. No
95 "It is clear therefore that, in the supremely wise arrangement of God, sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others. Working together, each in its own way, under the action of the one Holy Spirit, they all contribute effectively to the salvation of souls."
· We believe that we are all sinners by both nature and act, and need God's forgiveness and cleansing. Fine
1425 "You were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."9 One must appreciate the magnitude of the gift God has given us in the sacraments of Christian initiation in order to grasp the degree to which sin is excluded for him who has "put on Christ."10 But the apostle John also says: "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."11 And the Lord himself taught us to pray: "Forgive us our trespasses,"12 linking our forgiveness of one another's offenses to the forgiveness of our sins that God will grant us.
· We believe that Jesus Christ died on the Cross, and that by trusting in His death and resurrection, we can be restored to a right relation to God. No
1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.
1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.
1426 Conversion to Christ, the new birth of Baptism, the gift of the Holy Spirit and the Body and Blood of Christ received as food have made us "holy and without blemish," just as the Church herself, the Bride of Christ, is "holy and without blemish."13 Nevertheless the new life received in Christian initiation has not abolished the frailty and weakness of human nature, nor the inclination to sin that tradition calls concupiscence, which remains in the baptized such that with the help of the grace of Christ they may prove themselves in the struggle of Christian life.14 This is the struggle of conversion directed toward holiness and eternal life to which the Lord never ceases to call us.15
1440 Sin is before all else an offense against God, a rupture of communion with him. At the same time it damages communion with the Church. For this reason conversion entails both God's forgiveness and reconciliation with the Church, which are expressed and accomplished liturgically by the sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation.38
· We believe that God has enabled us to turn to Him from sin, but that He has not forced us to do so. Fine
1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.
· We believe that each person must repent, turn away from his sins, and trust Christ to accept him. Fine
1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39
· We believe that when we turn from sin and trust in Christ, the old record of sin is wiped clean, and we are born anew, thus becoming part of the family of God. No
1426 Conversion to Christ, the new birth of Baptism, the gift of the Holy Spirit and the Body and Blood of Christ received as food have made us "holy and without blemish," just as the Church herself, the Bride of Christ, is "holy and without blemish."13 Nevertheless the new life received in Christian initiation has not abolished the frailty and weakness of human nature, nor the inclination to sin that tradition calls concupiscence, which remains in the baptized such that with the help of the grace of Christ they may prove themselves in the struggle of Christian life.14 This is the struggle of conversion directed toward holiness and eternal life to which the Lord never ceases to call us.15
1489 To return to communion with God after having lost it through sin is a process born of the grace of God who is rich in mercy and solicitous for the salvation of men. One must ask for this precious gift for oneself and for others.
1490 The movement of return to God, called conversion and repentance, entails sorrow for and abhorrence of sins committed, and the firm purpose of sinning no more in the future. Conversion touches the past and the future and is nourished by hope in God's mercy.
1440 Sin is before all else an offense against God, a rupture of communion with him. At the same time it damages communion with the Church. For this reason conversion entails both God's forgiveness and reconciliation with the Church, which are expressed and accomplished liturgically by the sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation.38
Last edited on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 02:50 pm by Luke12:48
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Juan
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Posted: Sat Feb 24th, 2007 04:35 pm |
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We believe that when we turn from sin and trust in Christ, the old record of sin is wiped clean, and we are born anew, thus becoming part of the family of God. No
Actually, I would say, "yes".
We are born again in Baptism and Baptism wipes away all sin.
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 1263 (318 bytes ) preview document matches
1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin. In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would....
URL: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1263.htm
1212 The sacraments of Christian initiation - Baptism, Confirmation, and the Eucharist - lay the foundations of every Christian life. "The sharing in the divine nature given to men through the grace of Christ bears a certain likeness to the origin, development, and nourishing of natural life. The faithful are born anew by Baptism, strengthened by the sacrament of Confirmation, and receive in the Eucharist the food of eternal life. By means of these sacraments of Christian initiation, they thus receive in increasing measure the treasures of the divine life and advance toward the perfection of charity."
This statement, of course, would have to remain a bit ambiguous. As Catholics we understand this statement to mean that we must continue in this state of grace by participating in the Sacraments, especially confession and communion.
Whereas, Protestants who believe in absolute security could understand the statement in their way.
So, I wouldn't have a problem with this statement.
Sincerely,
Juan
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Feb 24th, 2007 06:32 pm |
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Juan wrote: We believe that when we turn from sin and trust in Christ, the old record of sin is wiped clean, and we are born anew, thus becoming part of the family of God. No
Actually, I would say, "yes".
We are born again in Baptism and Baptism wipes away all sin.
I disagree. Unless the word "baptism" appears in the statement, which it doesn't, it is not correct. Too many Protestant denominations believe that the declaration of faith is enough, and the Catholics in the group cannot accept that statement without specifying the necessity of baptism. I would not find it acceptable unless the word "Baptism" appears.
This line didn't turn blue:
· We believe that the Bible is the inspired, infallible Word of God, giving us all we need to know about how to be saved. No
And I agree with the No. You could suggest shortening it to "We believe that the Bible is the inspired, infallible Word of God." You could even accept "We believe that the Bible is the inspired, infallible Word of God, teaching us how to be saved." The offensive phrase is "all we need to know" so revision to remove that statement would make it acceptable.
· We believe that Jesus Christ died on the Cross, and that by trusting in His death and resurrection, we can be restored to a right relation to God. No
I think I could accept this, but it would be more acceptable if the word "restored" was changed to "led". I don't really see a contradiction between this statement and the sections of the Catechism you quoted. It is our trust in the death and resurrection of Christ that leads to the things you cited from the Catechism. If it said "we are restored" I would find it objectionable, but "we can be" is loose enough for a Catholic to accept its meaning as the beginning of necessary conversion. "Can be" also indicates that trust is not enough, but action in response is required.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Juan
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Posted: Sat Feb 24th, 2007 06:54 pm |
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I disagree. Unless the word "baptism" appears in the statement, which it doesn't, it is not correct. Too many Protestant denominations believe that the declaration of faith is enough, and the Catholics in the group cannot accept that statement without specifying the necessity of baptism. I would not find it acceptable unless the word "Baptism" appears.
I understand Rick, but isn't the point here to build a statement that we, Protestants and Catholics, can both live with.
With that goal in mind, can't we as Catholics assume that Baptism is inferred in this statement? After all, it is Catholic doctrine that in Baptism we are born anew and become the family of God:
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 804 (196 bytes ) preview document matches
4 One enters into the People of God by faith and Baptism. "All men are called to belong to the new People of God" (LG 13), so that, in Christ, "men may form one family
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 1212 (603 bytes ) preview document matches
likeness to the origin, development, and nourishing of natural life. The faithful are born anew by Baptism, strengthened by the sacrament of Confirmation, and receive
And I agree with the No. You could suggest shortening it to "We believe that the Bible is the inspired, infallible Word of God." You could even accept "We believe that the Bible is the inspired, infallible Word of God, teaching us how to be saved." The offensive phrase is "all we need to know" so revision to remove that statement would make it acceptable.
Good idea.
I think I could accept this, but it would be more acceptable if the word "restored" was changed to "led". I don't really see a contradiction between this statement and the sections of the Catechism you quoted. It is our trust in the death and resurrection of Christ that leads to the things you cited from the Catechism. If it said "we are restored" I would find it objectionable, but "we can be" is loose enough for a Catholic to accept its meaning as the beginning of necessary conversion. "Can be" also indicates that trust is not enough, but action in response is required.
I missed this one and I would also accept it. Either word is fine with me.
Sincerely,
Juan
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Feb 24th, 2007 07:26 pm |
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Juan wrote:
I disagree. Unless the word "baptism" appears in the statement, which it doesn't, it is not correct. Too many Protestant denominations believe that the declaration of faith is enough, and the Catholics in the group cannot accept that statement without specifying the necessity of baptism. I would not find it acceptable unless the word "Baptism" appears.
I understand Rick, but isn't the point here to build a statement that we, Protestants and Catholics, can both live with.
I can't accept it as written, Juan. Let's parse it:
We believe that when we turn from sin and trust in Christ, the old record of sin is wiped clean, and we are born anew, thus becoming part of the family of God.
"When we turn from sin and trust in Christ" implies an adult decision, so it leads to the belief that infant Baptism is worthless. According to this statement, a person who is baptized as an infant must still make an adult decision to turn from sin and trust in Christ to have the old record of sin wiped clean and become part of the family of God. Infants, baptized or not, are not part of the family of God.
"The old record of sin is wiped clean" Again, infant baptism is worthless, it is only through an adult decision that the record is wiped clean. If we infer the word "baptism" then we are saying that a person who is baptized as an infant has another chance to have the record wiped clean on the basis of an adult decision, or that only adult baptism is valid. That contradicts Catholic doctrine.
"And we are born anew" The word "Baptism" could be inferred here, but by tying it to an adult decision, it invalidates infant baptism and therefore contradicts Catholic doctrine.
So how would Catholics see it? The record is "wiped clean" only once in our lives, and that is at baptism. We Catholics do believe that it is necessary to trust Christ and turn away from sin, but the record is not wiped clean at that point. We are not born anew by our decision, but by Baptism. This statement contains several errors according to Catholic doctrine.
Sorry, I don't agree that this statement is acceptable in any way, and I don't see an easy way to make it acceptable.
Perhaps we could restate it as such, and make it acceptable to the Protestants:
We believe that the old record of sin is wiped clean when we are born anew and become part of the family of God. We must turn from sin and trust in Christ to be saved.
We could accept the inferral of the word "Baptism" in this statement, because that's what "born anew" means, and it acknowledges the need to turn from sin and trust Christ, which Catholics certainly believe, but still separates it (in our minds) from the necessity to be "born anew". They can take it as a single event if they wish; we will understand it as Baptism representing the necessary beginning of the path to salvation, which leads us to turn from sin and trust Christ.
Kate, I still wouldn't do anything until David and a few others have a chance to weigh in.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Luke12:48
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Posted: Sat Feb 24th, 2007 07:42 pm |
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Juan wrote: We believe that when we turn from sin and trust in Christ, the old record of sin is wiped clean, and we are born anew, thus becomithey imng part of the family of God. No
Actually, I would say, "yes".
We are born again in Baptism and Baptism wipes away all sin.
But are they implying this happens when someone says the "sinners prayer" as opposed to Baptism? The way they explained conversion to me is that it occurs with the sinners prayer and the Baptism is symbolic.
This statement, of course, would have to remain a bit ambiguous. As Catholics we understand this statement to mean that we must continue in this state of grace by participating in the Sacraments, especially confession and communion.
Whereas, Protestants who believe in absolute security could understand the statement in their way.
So, I wouldn't have a problem with this statement.
I agree that this is stretching but that is what we are trying to do here
Thank you.
Sincerely,
Juan
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Luke12:48
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Posted: Sat Feb 24th, 2007 07:47 pm |
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cajunrick wrote
I disagree. Unless the word "baptism" appears in the statement, which it doesn't, it is not correct. Too many Protestant denominations believe that the declaration of faith is enough, and the Catholics in the group cannot accept that statement without specifying the necessity of baptism. I would not find it acceptable unless the word "Baptism" appears.
I should have read further before my reply above--I agree with this.
This line didn't turn blue:
· We believe that the Bible is the inspired, infallible Word of God, giving us all we need to know about how to be saved. No The offensive phrase is "all we need to know" so revision to remove that statement would make it acceptable.
Agreed
· We believe that Jesus Christ died on the Cross, and that by trusting in His death and resurrection, we can be restored to a right relation to God. No
I think I could accept this, but it would be more acceptable if the word "restored" was changed to "led". I don't really see a contradiction between this statement and the sections of the Catechism you quoted.
I was thinking that the right relation cannot be restored without confession. I guess the "can be" leaves some room for ambiguity but I am still not sure on this.
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Luke12:48
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Posted: Sat Feb 24th, 2007 07:51 pm |
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Kate, I still wouldn't do anything until David and a few others have a chance to weigh in.
I will wait as this is not a huge rush but don't sell yourself short--you do a fine job! 
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Feb 24th, 2007 07:59 pm |
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Luke12:48 wrote: I think I could accept this, but it would be more acceptable if the word "restored" was changed to "led". I don't really see a contradiction between this statement and the sections of the Catechism you quoted.
I was thinking that the right relation cannot be restored without confession. I guess the "can be" leaves some room for ambiguity but I am still not sure on this.
I think they would accept a requirement for confession (as long as you don't specify confession to a priest) or, better yet, repentance, if that makes you more comfortable. I think it could be considered implied from the Catholic standpoint. With either word, a Catholic would assume sacramental confession.
Changing "restored" to "led" would remove the abiguity in a Catholic's mind, since we know we are led to confession to restore our relationship with God. In addition, a Catholic who trusts in God would understand the requirement for confession.
So I don't think I would consider the original unacceptable, but it certainly can be made more acceptable pretty easily.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Feb 24th, 2007 08:05 pm |
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Luke12:48 wrote: I will wait as this is not a huge rush but don't sell yourself short--you do a fine job!
Thanks. That doesn't seem to have been the general opinion lately.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Feb 25th, 2007 08:53 am |
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Guys, I think Rick’s points are right on the mark. No need for me to intervene.
I’m contending with a flaky internet connection right now, and it will be several days before it is fixed, so I will be sparing in my participation until then.
David
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Juan
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Posted: Sun Feb 25th, 2007 10:56 am |
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We believe that the old record of sin is wiped clean when we are born anew and become part of the family of God. We must turn from sin and trust in Christ to be saved.
Sounds good to me.
Sincerely,
Juan
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Luke12:48
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Posted: Mon Feb 26th, 2007 01:08 am |
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Thank you all! I have sent a draft of the changes and it looks like we might have found common ground. One small step in having our little group come together...who knows where it will lead?
An additonal point was sent back and I think this one is ok. I think the word "grace" makes more sense than "power" but I'm not sure it matters.
We believe that when we make a complete commitment to Him, He cleanses our spirit and gives us the power to live victoriously.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Feb 26th, 2007 01:54 am |
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Luke12:48 wrote: We believe that when we make a complete commitment to Him, He cleanses our spirit and gives us the power to live victoriously.
I'm not so sure I like this one. It has the feel of rewards or financial gain on Earth in return for faith. Also, this smacks of "once saved, always saved" if God cleanses our spirit in return for a commitment.
I don't think I can accept this one, and I'm not sure if there is anything that would make it acceptable except a complete re-write, and I would need to know what they intended by it before I could even attempt that.
After I wrote that, I stopped for a couple of minutes just to reflect on that statement, and the more I think about it, the less I like it. I'd like to see an explanation.
Maybe this?
We believe that when we turn ourselves completely over to God, we are filled with the power of the Holy Spirit that enables us to live eternally in the presence of the Throne of the Most High God, joining in the heavenly chorus of praise for the Almighty.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Luke12:48
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Posted: Mon Feb 26th, 2007 11:14 pm |
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cajunrick wrote:
I'm not so sure I like this one. It has the feel of rewards or financial gain on Earth in return for faith. Also, this smacks of "once saved, always saved" if God cleanses our spirit in return for a commitment.
I don't think I can accept this one, and I'm not sure if there is anything that would make it acceptable except a complete re-write, and I would need to know what they intended by it before I could even attempt that.
I wasn't going to ask about this one but I am glad I did. You took it in a completely different way. I will seek more clarification.
Everything else I sent back went well until a couple emails back and forth on the "bible alone" one. I gave my best attempt (with quotes from the catechism) to explain but there was just too much distress over the thought that the Catholic church might "contribute" Oh well... I will wait and see where it goes.
Thank you to all who replied.
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RonRule
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Posted: Wed Feb 28th, 2007 02:43 pm |
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Luke12:48 wrote:We believe in one God, the Creator of all things, who reveals himself as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Fine
I could be way off base since I'm no expert -- but are we sure we're ok with this language for the Trinity? Sounds like Modalism to these untrained ears.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Feb 28th, 2007 03:13 pm |
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RonRule wrote: Luke12:48 wrote:We believe in one God, the Creator of all things, who reveals himself as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Fine
I could be way off base since I'm no expert -- but are we sure we're ok with this language for the Trinity? Sounds like Modalism to these untrained ears.
Catholic Answers has an explanation of Modalism here.
This does not sound like Modalism to me. As I understand it, Modalism is the belief in one God, a single being who presents in three different modes. In other words, the three persons of the Trinity are not distinct, but rather like masks that the single God puts on. I suppose the language used could be mistaken for that, but I don't think it is the intention. It is certainly not the way a Catholic would read it.
I believe if the statement said, "Father, Son, and Spirit" it might be mistaken as Modalism, but by saying, "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit" it is acknowledging the separate and distinct persons of the Trinity.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Darlene
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Posted: Thu Mar 1st, 2007 05:40 pm |
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RonRule wrote: Luke12:48 wrote:We believe in one God, the Creator of all things, who reveals himself as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Fine
I could be way off base since I'm no expert -- but are we sure we're ok with this language for the Trinity? Sounds like Modalism to these untrained ears.
Hey RonRule,
What is Modalism? There seem to be too many "isms" in this world of ours!
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Darlene
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Posted: Thu Mar 1st, 2007 05:42 pm |
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Dummy me. After I posted, I noticed the definition of modalism.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Darlene
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| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
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| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Thu Mar 1st, 2007 05:47 pm |
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Hello Again,
I read the definition of modalism at the Catholic Answers website. It is mentioned there that TBN, the Protestant network, has preachers on there that do not believe in the Trinity. Does anyone know who these preachers are? I ask this for my own benefit as well as for my Protestant brethren who watch TBN.
Thanks.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Juan
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Posted: Fri Mar 2nd, 2007 01:28 pm |
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Luke12:48 wrote: We believe that when we make a complete commitment to Him, He cleanses our spirit and gives us the power to live victoriously.
I'm not so sure I like this one.
Well, I don't know if I'm too late, but I like it just the way it is.
It has the feel of rewards or financial gain on Earth in return for faith.
It specifically says, "cleanses our spirit." And "complete commitment" means more than faith alone to me. It means committing one's life. This is Catholic. This doesn't sound to me like they are talking about simply reciting the "Jesus prayer". They are talking about complete conversion. And that means faith AND works.
Also, this smacks of "once saved, always saved" if God cleanses our spirit in return for a commitment.
It is Catholics that believe in Merit . Therefore, if our spirit is cleansed in return for commitment this is a reflection of our Teaching on Faith and Works.
So, to me, it doesn't smack of "once saved, always saved" as much as of "faith and works", "merit" and "hope" and "confidence in God".
Ephesians 3:20
Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
Ephesians 6:10
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Romans 9:17
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
307 To human beings God even gives the power of freely sharing in his providence by entrusting them with the responsibility of "subduing" the earth and having dominion over it. God thus enables men to be intelligent and free causes in order to complete the work of creation, to perfect its harmony for their own good and that of their neighbors. Though often unconscious collaborators with God's will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions, their prayers and their sufferings. They then fully become "God's fellow workers" and co-workers for his kingdom.
God gives us that power in the Sacraments:
1107 The Holy Spirit's transforming power in the liturgy hastens the coming of the kingdom and the consummation of the mystery of salvation. While we wait in hope he causes us really to anticipate the fullness of communion with the Holy Trinity. Sent by the Father who hears the epiclesis of the Church, the Spirit gives life to those who accept him and is, even now, the "guarantee" of their inheritance.
1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism: But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
I don't think I can accept this one, and I'm not sure if there is anything that would make | | |
