 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
TotusTuus
Member
| Joined: | Tue Oct 31st, 2006 |
| Location: | Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 125 |
| First Name: | Mark | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic (thanks Mom and Dad!) |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 5th, 2007 07:03 pm |
|
I was quite distressed to hear Fr. Connor's seemingly flip remark about why Catholic's don't often speak about the need to be "born again". He said something like, "'Born again'? What does that mean? I don't even know what that means?" (sorry I don't have the exact quote).
Even Marcus said the hairs on the back of his neck were raised by Fr. Connor's answer.
For starters, the Evangelist John places the phrase "born again" (gennhqh anwqen) directly on the lips of our Savior: "Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (3:3)and "Wonder not, that I said to thee, you must be born again" (3:7).
Second, as Marcus correctly pointed out, countless believers of all denominational stripes report having experienced a "born again" experience (some Catholics prefer the language of "release of the Spirit" or "actualization of Baptismal graces") which ought not be lightly dismissed.
Fr. Conner's exegetical and ecumenical mistake, while donning both Roman collar and elegant cuff links seems to have set the discussion of a homeward path back several marks. I couldn't help but resonate with our Lord's words to Nicodemous: "Art thou a master in Israel, and knowest not these things? (3:10).
Last edited on Thu Jul 5th, 2007 07:05 pm by TotusTuus
____________________
TTM!
|
|
|
Katy
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | DFW, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 78 |
| First Name: | Katy | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Non-denom/Bible churches, Catholic since Easter 2005 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 5th, 2007 07:48 pm |
|
TotusTuus wrote: For starters, the Evangelist John places the phrase "born again" (gennhqh anwqen) directly on the lips of our Savior: "Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (3:3)and "Wonder not, that I said to thee, you must be born again" (3:7).
According to the New American Bible, the phrase is not "born again" but "born from above" or "born of water and Spirit."
John 3:3, Jesus answered and said to him, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above."
-and-
John 3:5, Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
Last edited on Thu Jul 5th, 2007 07:51 pm by Katy
____________________
Lord, by Your cross and resurrection, You have set us free. You are the Savior of the World.
|
|
|
TotusTuus
Member
| Joined: | Tue Oct 31st, 2006 |
| Location: | Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 125 |
| First Name: | Mark | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic (thanks Mom and Dad!) |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 5th, 2007 08:05 pm |
|
Hi Katy,
You bring up an interesting exegetical point. The greek phrase "gennethe anothen" can mean either "born again" or "born from above". Our Lord's dialog with Nicodemous is predicated upon this ambiguity. If you read the pericope, Nicodemous is understanding our Lord to say "born again" because he asks (3:4) "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born again?"
The upshot is that being "born from above" is as profound an experience as being "born again" and as Catholic's we should not be dismissive of the millions who report having an experience like this (especially if we hope to engage them in a dialog about the "deep waters" of Catholic spirituality).
Thanks for your input.
Last edited on Thu Jul 5th, 2007 08:07 pm by TotusTuus
____________________
TTM!
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2117 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 5th, 2007 08:10 pm |
|
I heard this remark, too, Mark. It was my assumption at the time that Fr. Conner was thinking of the Evangelical routine of the altar call and the sinner’s prayer, in contrast to what Christ said in the bible about baptism. This was, after all, the caller’s question: Why don’t Catholics speak of “being born again” and “being saved,” like the Protestants do? In context, Fr. Conner was responding to certain things that Protestants believe and do that aren’t really biblical.
Perhaps we should look at the hour overall instead of isolating a three minute segment. Fr. Conner’s learning and detailed memory are quite impressive. He was able to provide point by point answers to several questions that others would have to generalize on. He is just a bit weak when it comes to dealing with interfaith situations. On a call-in show, one takes pot luck, and some of the questions were not in his area of expertise.
But you are right, his approach to this one question was a mistake, at least from the standpoint of the program and its aim.
David
|
|
|
Tina in Ashburn
Member
| Joined: | Mon May 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Ashburn, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 282 |
| First Name: | Tina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Roman Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, presently practicing as Roman Latin ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 5th, 2007 09:37 pm |
|
The phrase "born again" has a bad connotation for some Catholics as the phrase evokes a certain mind-set slightly inconsistent with Catholic teaching. I can't speak for everyone, but for me it makes me think of the person who believes in "once saved always saved". This is the line of thinking that once you get saved it doesn't matter how you behave, but only what you say you believe. Our Catholic Faith teaches us that even with baptism we must act out our Faith with good works. This has become an over-used phrase to depict a certain Christian lifestyle, when the phrase used in its full context is actually about actual baptism and its graces.
I think I see a confusion between the emotional experience of being born again with the connotations of the phrase "born again".
Catholics believe that to be "born again" describes the Sacrament of baptism, in context of all the Sacraments and their graces, not strictly the emotional experience to which I think you all are referring.
I'm pretty certain that Father Connor's remark was more about this mind set than about the actual phrases in the Bible.
Marcus went on to explain that this mind-set within Catholics themselves who consider themselves "born again" are very poorly catechised and don't understand the basics of their Faith.
Both Father and Marcus mentioned that the phrase "born again" is a misused concept that is taken out of context from the Bible and doesn't include the understanding of what baptism gives us, the graces needed through life that baptism gives, and the works necessary to complete our own salvation. I'd also add that many phrases such as this are misleading and come from phrases taken out of context. One such idea is that of submission of the wife to the husband - as in "wives be submissive to your husbands" and failing to include the admonition to husbands to "love your wives as Christ loves the Church". This misconception can lead to the abuse of authority of men over their wives all because the phrase is taken out of context.
Both Father and Marcus re-iterated that the popular concept of "born again" has little to do with actual baptism.
Marcus' remark about the hair on the back of his neck was in regard to hearing the phrase "born again". He said he'd preached on it many times and now sees the error of this generalized concept.
Father was not saying that "born again" is not biblical, but that it is a concept, in context of the "born again" way of life, because this tends to promote that which is false and superficial and not the fullness of the practice of the Faith.
The original question by the caller was words to the effect of "why don't Catholics mention much about being "born again"?". The response of both Father Connor and Marcus was that, essentially this is not a Catholic concept.
____________________
Tina
Arlington Diocese
|
|
|
BettyBoopToo
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Camas/Washougal, Washington USA |
| Posts: | 538 |
| First Name: | Betty | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Fist Baptist/Calvary Babtist/Secular Confusion/ Roman Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 5th, 2007 09:53 pm |
|
TotusTuus wrote: I was quite distressed to hear Fr. Connor's seemingly flip remark about why Catholic's don't often speak about the need to be "born again". He said something like, "'Born again'? What does that mean? I don't even know what that means?" (sorry I don't have the exact quote).
Even Marcus said the hairs on the back of his neck were raised by Fr. Connor's answer.
For starters, the Evangelist John places the phrase "born again" (gennhqh anwqen) directly on the lips of our Savior: "Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (3:3)and "Wonder not, that I said to thee, you must be born again" (3:7).
Second, as Marcus correctly pointed out, countless believers of all denominational stripes report having experienced a "born again" experience (some Catholics prefer the language of "release of the Spirit" or "actualization of Baptismal graces") which ought not be lightly dismissed.
Fr. Conner's exegetical and ecumenical mistake, while donning both Roman collar and elegant cuff links seems to have set the discussion of a homeward path back several marks. I couldn't help but resonate with our Lord's words to Nicodemous: "Art thou a master in Israel, and knowest not these things? (3:10).
Mark:
After reading your post, I had tried to remember the exact words and the discussion that transpired when the Question of "Born Again" came up from the caller and the response of Fr. Conner and Marcus.
I went back to the EWTN web-site and listened again. I really think that you may want to do that, if you don't want to take the time and watch the full program, then the minutes into the show that this discussion can be found are at approx 33min>forward.
I think that your first impression may be cleared up, as Marcus goes into a full explaination of where and when "Being Born Again" came from and he discusses it with Father Conner. I did not get the impression that Marcus was aggravated with Fr. Conner's remark, It was his remembrance back when he had taught the Born Again doctrine himself that he was recalling and that was the reason for the hair standing up on the back of his neck. Not Father Conners comment.
You can find the episode by clicking here.http://ewtn.com/
then guide you mouse over to multimedia, Go down to Archived RealVideo then click on the the drop side bar under journey home. I normally have trouble listening to RealVideo, but EWTN's audio is fine for any connection.
I hope you will listen again, I really hate to see one comment from One Priest, damage your journey.
God Bless
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
|
|
|
BodRod
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 815 |
| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 5th, 2007 10:36 pm |
|
I too, watched that program and its re-run and my perception is that Fr. O hit the nail right on the head while Marcus was letting his Prot. background show through.
This reminds me of trying to figure out what happened after talking to all the witnesses. 
____________________
Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
|
|
|
Tina in Ashburn
Member
| Joined: | Mon May 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Ashburn, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 282 |
| First Name: | Tina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Roman Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, presently practicing as Roman Latin ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 5th, 2007 10:45 pm |
|
| Father Connor and Marcus were in agreement. Marcus agreed with Father thoroughly on the fallacy of this "born again" concept and how it not a Catholic teachng. see my post above.
____________________
Tina
Arlington Diocese
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2117 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 5th, 2007 11:29 pm |
|
Perhaps I need to clarify my earlier posting. I agree with Tina and Betty that Fr. Conner’s response was in line with Catholic doctrine, and that Marcus was not disagreeing with him in this regard.
However, I did refer to a “mistake” made by Fr. Conner, and that mistake was that he was not explaining Catholic doctrine in terms of what Protestants would understand and be able to accept. In other words, he was speaking strictly from a Catholic viewpoint and not really considering the problems this would create for the caller and for the audience in general.
Marcus then tried to cover the Protestant viewpoint and sensibilities. In this sense he differed from Fr. Conner, and I believe he was right in doing so. The remarkable thing is that the two of them managed to stay in theological agreement while approaching the topic from opposite ends.
But the end result of the question and full reply left one thing hanging, which is what Mark saw clearly: The phrase “born again” most certainly is biblical, and this should never have been effectively denied in the response. What both Marcus and his guest should have vigorously insisted on from the outset was that the words are taken out of context and force-fit into Protestant theology if they are taken to refer to the “conversion experience” and the altar call and sinner’s prayer ritual that often represent it, rather than true justification through actual water baptism, which act brings about the divine indwelling of the Holy Spirit. For as good as the act of conversion is, it is the act of baptism which literally fulfills the gospel passage.
David
|
|
|
TotusTuus
Member
| Joined: | Tue Oct 31st, 2006 |
| Location: | Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 125 |
| First Name: | Mark | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic (thanks Mom and Dad!) |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 6th, 2007 03:21 pm |
|
Hi Tina,
I appreciate your thoughts on the issue of why Catholics are sometimes shy about using "born again" terminology. I realize we are speaking about perceptions and broad generalities and that there are frequently negative connotations with the use of the term "born again" (you mentioned OSAS and excessive emotionalism as two examples).
However, I believe we ought not be dismissive of the "born again" experience merely on the basis of some excesses. I also think it is a mistake to stereotype the "born again" experience as mere "emotionalism". For millions of believers, the "born again" experience reaches far deeper into one's consciousness than mere emotion. The experience is based upon direct revelation to the believer by the Holy Spirit about Easter graces. The results are frequently profound and long lasting: a love for Scripture, an immediacy in prayer, an awakening of the Spiritual gifts, and a thirst for personal holiness. Some may call this "born again", others "baptism in the Spirit", some "release of the Spirit", and others "consciousness of grace".
I believe St. Paul was describing the same phenomenon in last Sunday's second reading: "I say, then: live by the Spirit and you will certainly not gratify the desire of the flesh. For the flesh has desires against the Spirit,
and the Spirit against the flesh; these are opposed to each other,
so that you may not do what you want. But if you are guided by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
It goes without saying that the JH audience is an ecumenical audience including many with evangelical sensibilites. I think they expect the host and guest to be clued into their sensibilities, experiences and not dismissive of a phrase which they may find descriptive of their experiences (especially one which is clearly biblical). Unfortunately, when a Catholic clergyman in such a setting is obtuse or dismissive about something so foundational it obscures the total message that the Catholic Church is, in fact, the storehouse of all good things new and old.
Peace,
____________________
TTM!
|
|
|
Christine Ann
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | An Hours' Drive From Cincinnati, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 118 |
| First Name: | Christine Ann | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | former Lutheran, Baptist, now Catholic. |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2007 03:24 pm |
|
Hello Mark,
I agree with you. Being born of the spirit was a profound experience which happened to me. It was a deep experience of grace. I never talked to others about it...because I've never had anyone to talk with about it and I feared my sanity would be questioned.
I experienced a chastisment from the Lord, informing me that I was not honoring my mother and father by the way I related to them and talked about them and He was very displeased. I repented then, and in my actions toward my parents I was a new person. I chose to love them despite pain they had caused me...putting that behind me. I now have a loving relationship with my parents. I no longer think about the past issues with them.
When I repented of it to the Lord, he cleansed me as by fire completely and I experienced a "new start" which could be described as born again. I never thought of it with this phrase though, because I heard others speak of being born again, the fruits of which were not apparent in their lives.
It rekindled in me a desire for holiness, a hunger for scripture, a fear of God, (the kind of awe due him.) and I immediately sought to return to the Church of my youth which was Lutheran.
I was baptised as an infant and I believe I was cleansed of original sin and given many graces at that time. The Lord was so good to not allow me to continue in my sin and to be born anew in my spirit. I don't know why He chose to give me such grace...except for his mercy at a time when I could have died in my sin.
This happened many years ago...and I have been searching for the church which had the fullness of truth ever since. My experience was very Catholic in nature and I was drawn to the Catholic faith partly because of this experience.
I'm responding to you Mark, because you seem to believe in this kind of thing actually happening. I had lost hope of anyone understanding this, or for me to find words to describe what was a supernatural experience. I ended the experience with a joyful spirit. It turned me completely around and has brought me to the Catholic Church where I have found answers to many questions that had troubled me all my life.
I have communicated this as best as I know how, not wanting to offend anyone by my use of words and I pray I have not. Thank you for the small paragraph you wrote. It has given me courage to express this. It was such an incredible, life-changing experience.
In His Love,
Christine Ann
|
|
|
Tina in Ashburn
Member
| Joined: | Mon May 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Ashburn, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 282 |
| First Name: | Tina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Roman Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, presently practicing as Roman Latin ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2007 03:38 pm |
|
Dear Christine Ann, You are so singularly graced to have experienced a true conversion of heart. Anyone who has turned to God in this way could never deny that this happens. Your reticence to describe this simply means that you believe that no one else has gone through this. If this were true, our Catholic Church might not still be standing nor would we have the good angels nor the millions of saints populating heaven.
For some this conversion is instantaneous, for others it can take much longer, even a lifetime, or on the deathbed.
I pray that all are converted, including myself. Striving for constant conversion of heart, no matter what state you are in, should never stop.
Awesome!
____________________
Tina
Arlington Diocese
|
|
|
Tina in Ashburn
Member
| Joined: | Mon May 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Ashburn, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 282 |
| First Name: | Tina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Roman Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, presently practicing as Roman Latin ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2007 03:48 pm |
|
Dear Mark, Thank you for your thoughtful explanation.
Please don't construe what I've said as my own opinion. My intent is to reflect Catholic teaching and accurate representation of what was said on this program.
My remarks, nor those of Marcus or Father Connor, do not dismiss the true, long-lasting conversion experience. You can call it "born again" but that is not what Marcus and Father meant.
We have two different points going on here:
1. what was said, and meant, on the show
2. the concept of "born again" and how it compares to Catholic doctrine.
The first point can be argued indefinitely if you don't go back and listen carefully to what was said, as Betty kindly suggested. Your earlier inaccurate statements about this specific program gave me the impression that you had not done this. For instance, no one has said this term doesn't appear in the Bible. Basing your questions on an accurate quote will get us a lot closer to clarification.
The second point should be covered in a separate thread explaining Church teaching. The Catholic Church has much to say what "born again" is NOT. In spite of how you feel the reaction might be to the program, I'd be more comfortable if the discussion is about Catholic teaching, not opinion or hurt feelings.
This discussion can get caught up in semantics and many will miss the point of what Father Connor meant. By semantics I mean that "born again" means a lot of different things to many people. And those who think of it in a particular way might have an understandably predjucial reaction to a Catholic statement. Is it the altar call? Is it the conversion experience? Is it the emotional high that some seek? Is it charismatic healing? Is it baptism of water and mere words of faith, while ignoring the context of all other Sacraments? Is it a conversion of heart, including baptism of water and resolve to change ones ways and actions? To different people "born again" is one of these or more. You even cite different meanings to this term. But we need a focused discussion on what Catholic doctrine says "born again" is NOT.
I'll admit to confusion on this subject myself. I have huge respect for the "born again" who have experienced true, long-lasting conversion and who change their life forever. I also know those who flippantly say they are "born again" ... who make no changes to their lives at all. I am painfully aware of the misconceptions, misinterpretations, and Catholic teaching that make discussion very emotional.
Inaccurate interpretation of what both Marcus and Father Connor actually said does a disservice to their brilliant devotion to Catholic teaching and to those reading this thread.
Peace to men of good will,
____________________
Tina
Arlington Diocese
|
|
|
Darlene
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2007 05:21 pm |
|
I waited for a few days to see what others would have to say about this program. Tina, you are perceptive in breaking down the two different points of discussion regarding this program. I think your first point is the one which I will address: 1.) What was said, and meant, on the show. Before I proceed, let me say that I find The Journey Home Program to be such a blessing and pray often for this apostolate. I also think that Father Connor is a priest who is faithful to the Magesterium and orthodox in his beliefs. In fact, I intend to attend St. Peter's Cathedral tomorrow for Mass, where Father Connor is a priest.
With that said, I believe I can bring an Evangelical Protestant's mindset into this discussion. The mindset of one who comes out of the "born again" experience. We must remember that many Protestant Evangelicals, coming from the tradition of being "born again" watch The Journey Home. When the caller verbalized his concerns over the CC not speaking about being "born again," I perceived that he was somewhat perplexed or possibly even bothered. It seemed he wanted an explanation of why, in his opinion, the CC doesn't speak about the new birth.
With that said, I was initially astonished at Fr. Connor's reply. Remember, I am saying this within the context that the program is geared toward non-Catholics, a large number of whom regard the "born again" experience with reverence and awe. I watched the show a second time to see if my restrained Protestant sensibilities (yeah, they still manifest themselves from time to time) were effected by Father Connor's response. What stands out as most shocking to me is that he used the word "ludicrous" in connection with the term "born again." When I first heard it, I thought I must have misunderstood. However, Marcus then repeated the word "ludicrous" in a way to reiterate what Father Connor had said. (It was in the statement about the hair standing up on the back of his neck or thereabouts)
So, I decided to look up the word ludicrous, even though I know the connotations of using such a word. The Oxford Thessaurus has these synonyms: absurd, ridiculous, laughable, risible, derisible, comic, comical, farcical, silly, funny, humorous, droll, amusing, diverting, hilarious, crazy, zany, nonsensical, odd, outlandish, eccentric, incongruous, preposterous. Now as to what word Father C. was thinking of exactly, we can only guess. My understanding of his usage of this word was more along the lines of nonsensical, or preposterous. Again, that is just my understanding. Finally though, whichever meaning he was referring to within these various examples, his delivery regarding the belief in being "born again" came across as one of being dismissive and perhaps bordering on rejection altogether.
I think what Father C. reacted to was the false concept that has been touted about regarding the born again experience. Rather than reacting negatively toward the phrase "born again," he should have immediately expressed that Catholics, in fact, do believe in being "born again" or more accurately, born from above or born anew. The demeanor with which he reacted to the caller's "born again" comment was not conducive to drawing Protestants toward the Catholic faith. In fact, I would not be surprised if it had a dissuasive effect on many Evangelicals, many of whom comprise a large percentage of the viewing audience.
Did Father Connor's comment connecting the born again experience with being ludicrous dissuade me from the Catholic faith? Of course not. But I have been on this journey for some time. I have read many books, quite a bit of literature, attended Mass, spoken one-on-one with an understanding priest, and have had much help in getting answers on this forum. How many who watch The Journey Home Program are in the same place as myself? Had this been the first Journey Home Program I watched, I would have been deeply upset at Father Connor's reaction to the born again experience.
So it is that I think Father Connor should have been more perceptive and cognizant of Protestant Evangelical sensibilities in his response. And I think rather than even dismiss the Protestant Evangelical interpretation of the John 3 passage, he should have immediately defended and explained the Catholic teaching and doctrine on being born again. (sidestepping the Evangelical bent altogether)
Remember the human saying, "You can draw more flies with honey than vinegar?" Course I never understood why flies are used instead of bees. But I think ya'll get my point here. The good Father, imo, reacted a bit too impetuously, without thinking how such a comment would/could effect The Journey Home's audience. Did this cause much damage in the whole scope of things? I really can't say. But he is imperfect, as we all are as well. I do think that Marcus clarified things and did his best to make amends for the sake of his prominently Protestant audience.
God bless you all.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2117 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2007 05:44 pm |
|
Darlene, your response demonstrates exactly why I called Fr. Conner’s reply a mistake; it was a failure to communicate. Yes, he was technically correct in what he said, but he did not make it easy for those who have known only the Evangelical understanding of “born again” to see that there is a better understanding elsewhere. An Evangelical’s probable response would have been, “But ‘born again’ is in the bible. You haven’t addressed my question at all.”
David
|
|
|
TotusTuus
Member
| Joined: | Tue Oct 31st, 2006 |
| Location: | Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 125 |
| First Name: | Mark | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic (thanks Mom and Dad!) |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Jul 8th, 2007 02:30 am |
|
I went back and viewed the show again and there is no mistake that Fr. Connor's reaction to the caller's question was obtuse and dismissive. To be fair to Father, his performance on the show up to this point was outstanding.
Among other things, he said, "There's no need to be 'born again'"... "The whole concept is ludicrous"... "'Born again' - God bless us..."
While it is true that the full understanding of Our Lord's teaching about the need to be "born again/from above" is Baptismal and Sacramental, the Sacraments do not work by magic; they work by faith as we consciously yeild to the power of the Holy Spirit. That is why Marcus, I believe, directed the discussion into the area of catechetics. As he has said many times before on the show, many Catholics have been sacramentalized but not effectively evangelized or catechized. From an Evangelical perspective, being "born again/from above" is the moment in every Christian's life when the Holy Spirit speaks decisively to the inner spirit that the Gospel is true and it is possible to live by the power of the Spirit and not the life of the flesh. This is simply a matter of appropriating Baptismal graces.
Fr. Connor seemed to want to make the case that cradle Catholics do not need such a turning point or moment of grace. I would suggest that in practice there is always a point of confrontation where the Holy Spirit becomes the principle of decision and action and the "ego" takes a back seat. Otherwise, we are in danger of a "new phariseeism", which St. Augustine described as dealing with New Covenant realities from an Old Covenant mentality.
____________________
TTM!
|
|
|
TotusTuus
Member
| Joined: | Tue Oct 31st, 2006 |
| Location: | Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 125 |
| First Name: | Mark | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic (thanks Mom and Dad!) |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Jul 8th, 2007 03:23 am |
|
Dear Christine Ann,
Thank you for sharing your experience of being "born of the Spirit". While your experience is remarkable it is certainly not singular in the sense that it is really the "normative" Christian experience. All four Evangelists attribute to John the Baptist the prophecy that the Messiah would "baptise with the Holy Spirit". In the Acts of the Apostles, the experiential aspect of baptism or "drenching" in the Holy Spirit was normal and expected. The letters of St. Paul, likewise, the power of the Spirit was a matter of experience for the Christians of his day: "Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by hearing with faith?"
There is ample evidence that such special sendings of the Spirit have been occuring throughout the ages. The life story of any saint, canonized or not, will normally indicate the activity of grace - some conversion or turning point. The Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius are specifically geared towards such an experience:
"the Creator and Lord in person will communicate Himself to the devout soul in quest of the divine will, that He inflame it with His love and praise ..."
Christian tradition indicates that the Gospel reaches us by Word (the Gospel) and Sacrament. Without the Word element, the Sacraments are powerless (because we are not disposed by faith to received the graces transmitted to us). Without the Sacramental aspect, we fail to realize the full implications of our Lord's Incarnation. While the Catholic Church has the full "means" of salvation (Word and Sacrament), it is often our separated bretheren who remind us of the kerygmatic or Word element of the faith.
Peace on your journey,
Mark
____________________
TTM!
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2117 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Sun Jul 8th, 2007 09:43 am |
|
TotusTuus wrote:Fr. Connor seemed to want to make the case that cradle Catholics do not need such a turning point or moment of grace. I would suggest that in practice there is always a point of confrontation where the Holy Spirit becomes the principle of decision and action and the "ego" takes a back seat.
I think he was emphasizing the need for the sacraments, as against the Protestant concentration on the moment of grace at the expense of the sacraments. This is still a mistake, because as you intimate, the one should not be set off against the other. They are of a piece, and we need both/and, not either/or.
The dynamics of this kind of approach work the same way as the debate over faith and works. If the one person denies works in order to maintain faith, this is one mistake. If another then denies faith in order to maintain works, this is just as big a mistake. Dead works are no better than dead faith. Both faith and works must be maintained together to bring us to life in grace.
As several of us have worked together through this particular point, I think we have come to substantial agreement that Fr. Conner is an excellent scholar and educator but inexperienced as an evangelizer and apologist. We all have our weak points and our blind sides. I have my own, and I am acutely aware of them. Perhaps we should now charitably acknowledge that if we had been guests on the show that night, we would have stumbled on some of the questions, too. Nothing is easy; nothing should be taken for granted.
David
|
|
|
Darlene
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Jul 8th, 2007 02:31 pm |
|
I've often wondered how I would do on a show such as The Journey Home. It is one thing to be an armchair observer, and quite another to sit under hot lights and respond with wisdom and accuracy in a timely matter on a live show. I think I know how I would respond to callers' questions, but I wouldn't be surprised if I might stumble a bit as well. Kind of like Porky the Pig, "Ttthhaat'ss aall fffoolkkss." 
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
|
|
|
Tina in Ashburn
Member
| Joined: | Mon May 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Ashburn, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 282 |
| First Name: | Tina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Roman Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, presently practicing as Roman Latin ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Jul 8th, 2007 03:05 pm |
|
Darlene, I took a whole day to craft my answer to Mark, which changed substantially the more I thought, so I know what you mean about waiting. Your answer that you waited to post is excellent and brought forth what really was on everybody's mind, but better said. To say someone watching the show for the first time, out of context of all the others, might have been offended was right on point.
Dear Mark, thanks for reveiwing the show again and re-stating your thoughts. I can't disagree.
David, your comments about those with the Evangelical backgrounds are enlightening. Also to parallel this discussion with "faith & works" makes a lot of sense. These concepts are both complex and simply take a lot of 'splainin' Loocy.
OH Darlene, I'm wondering how it went with Fr Connor and his parish! And did you print off this discussion and give it to him with a kindly wink by any chance? In the other thread you had mentioned the challenges of the parish you'd been visiting... I hope this visit is a happy one!
What a great discussion this turned out to be - and oh goody, I see a thread over in "Questions about Catholicism" for "do Catholics believe that born again protestants are saved?".
Yeah, what Porky said.
____________________
Tina
Arlington Diocese
|
|
|
Annie
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 731 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 11:17 am |
|
TotusTuus wrote: From an Evangelical perspective, being "born again/from above" is the moment in every Christian's life when the Holy Spirit speaks decisively to the inner spirit that the Gospel is true and it is possible to live by the power of the Spirit and not the life of the flesh. This is simply a matter of appropriating Baptismal graces.
I only got to see this program last night. I had a born again experience which 22 years later led me into the Church. I understand the importance of this experience at least to me personally and Father's comment seemed flippant. But remember, he is an academic and academics often react t | | |
