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jsking1964
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| Joined: | Sat Dec 15th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Benedict | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Basically I have been a Christian all my life, and ... |
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Posted: Tue Dec 18th, 2007 07:22 pm |
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Hi all,
I have a question. I saw the interview that was replayed between Doug Keck and Marcus Grodi. There was a statement that was made that I am still trying to run through my mind, and that is that the Catholic Church is NOT a denomination. I also know that the Catholic Church is Christian, so what is the deal: are we talking about a new religion, or is the Catholic Church a denomination, or what? I am still learning about all this stuff, and I hope that my question is appropriate for this area!
____________________
Your friend in Christ, +
JS Benedict
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemed. Mark 16:16
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Dec 18th, 2007 09:16 pm |
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Hi, Jason. “Denomination’ is a word coined by Protestants to distinguish between the various communions (or as we call them, ecclesial communities) of Protestantism. The Catholic Church is obviously not Protestant. It is (as we believe) the original and only true and complete form of Christianity that has ever existed. It is therefore a “church” (singular assembly, the unique bearer of the Christian religion, which in the New Testament is referred to as the Body of Christ), not a “denomination” (one group out of many religious bodies mutually recognized as possibly legitimate).
David
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jsking1964
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| First Name: | Benedict | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Basically I have been a Christian all my life, and ... |
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Posted: Tue Dec 18th, 2007 11:22 pm |
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Hi David,
Can I infer from your response that we as "the Church" recognize other Protestant denominations as apart of the Christian community? If so, it somewhat disturbs me that some look upon the Church as a cultish type religion seperate from the Christian faith. I can recall about two diffrent churches in my faith walk that have told me this. In saying that, I have a family member who has sounded to me that they were not pleased with the direction that, despite the fact I still watch some of my favorite protestant ministries on TV, I have taken this action in my walk, for I see us having more in common than diffrent.
A really quick note here is that I was pleased to find out that my therapist that I have been seeing since I have been here in this nursing home is Catholic, and so I have someone who can help me mentally and emotionally that is of likemindness.
____________________
Your friend in Christ, +
JS Benedict
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemed. Mark 16:16
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tedjenczewski
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Posted: Wed Dec 19th, 2007 12:11 am |
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Quite a few of the protestant denominationss teach that Catholics are not Christian, or only nominally Christian. That view was initiated by the reformers such as John Calvin who developed their own theologies regarding such things as salvation and justifation by faith alone, and the revelation of God contained scripture alone. They also excluded the sacraments as means of saving grace. And they accused the Catholic Church of idolitry in its' liturgical worship. To develop a background of understanding on these subjects I recommend you continue watching Marcus Grodi on EWTN, and go to Dave Armstrong's web site: http://www.biblicalcatholic.com.
The site has several articles dealing with the errors that protestants teach concerning the Catholic Church. Look at the articles concerning Calvin.
____________________
"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Dec 19th, 2007 01:45 am |
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jsking1964 wrote:Can I infer from your response that we as "the Church" recognize other Protestant denominations as a part of the Christian community?
Jason, we recognize Protestants individually as genuine Christians because of their baptism, and Protestant communities as Christian faith communities, but not as manifestly part of the Church because of their lack of certain essentials, such as existing since the beginning of Christianity, possessing the same faith and doctrine, having valid apostolic succession, and being in union with other communities who exhibit these same characteristics. We do recognize the various Eastern Orthodox Churches as true churches because they have most of these characteristics. This document of the Second Vatican Council and this official Vatican declaration will help you to understand what I’m referring to here. A clarification of the latter document, found here, was released earlier this year. Just click on the links to access the texts.
Biblically, here is a passage from Ephesians 4:1–6 that will help to specify what we see as necessary ingredients of church validity and unity:
I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.
Note that it begins with “unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.” How many Protestant communities are willing to have true unity and peace with the Catholic Church? As you yourself say, many of them look upon Catholics as members of a cult. Many of the members of this forum are facing panicked opposition from family and friends because of this totally unfounded belief.
Next, the passage mentions “one body”; this is the unique Body of Christ, whose soul is the Holy Spirit (“one Spirit”). “One hope…, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God” tells the rest. Not one of these “denominations” is united with another, either institutionally or in faith; otherwise, they would not be separate denominations.
So you see, Protestant denominations simply fail on every criterion of being the true Church of Christianity. Yet they accuse the Catholic Church of being false.
This does not mean that the Protestant communities possess no truth at all. They simply do not possess the fulness of truth, so as to be recognized as the genuine inheritor of Christian truth.
It is good to hear that you have discovered someone close at hand who can serve as your family in Christ. My wife has been confined to a nursing home for the past seven years, so I understand how isolated one can feel in an institution.
David
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Darlene
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Posted: Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 06:47 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote: Not one of these “denominations” is united with another, either institutionally or in faith; otherwise, they would not be separate denominations.
So you see, Protestant denominations simply fail on every criterion of being the true Church of Christianity.
Dear David,
I must strongly disagree with your comments above. I think you are giving a false impression of Protestant Christians, especially when you say that "none of these denominations are united in faith." But, so as not to stir up controversy or be seen as divisive, I will leave it at that. You don't want folks to have wrong impressions of Roman Catholics, but I suggest that you need to reconsider that you might well be doing the same thing regarding the above statements.
Sincerely in Christ's Love,
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 10:36 pm |
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Hi, Darlene. I was just giving a quick summary of the Vatican documents I linked for Jason. I’ve added a few details for clarification. Evidently you object to some of the details.
As to your specific mention that my statement that the different denominations are not united in faith is untrue, perhaps you would like to PM me with some examples of denominations that are in fact united in faith, and also offer an explanation as to why they are not also united institutionally. I realize that the two of us may mean different things by “united,” so we will have to consider that, too.
I’m not suggesting this as a challenge. I’d like to be informed if my statement is incorrect. I would love to be able to say something more positive if it is true. It’s just that, after 50 years of looking, I haven’t yet found such a denomination.
As a former Methodist of the denomination that eventually became the United Methodist Church, I was very much aware of its ecumenist bent. In fact, a merger occurred while I was there. The first thing I noted was a major change in the make-up of my congregation right after the announcement of the merger. Many staunch members moved out and were replaced over time by a much more liberal crowd, most from the former Evangelical United Brethren, which was the denomination merging with us. (The group that went on to become the EUB broke away from the then existing Methodist Episcopal Church over a century ago on grounds of faith differences, so this merger was viewed as a reunification.)
With the merger, there came some changes in worship and changes in official belief and practice. For instance, without precedent in Methodism, it suddenly became possible for women to become Methodist ministers. Also, we were no longer to believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnated. I was in fact taught after the merger that “God was in Christ, but Christ was not God.” So it became obvious to me that, in spite of the friendly merger, there was still considerable difference between the two denominations that were now one.
This is the sort of faith difference I am talking about; maybe you have had a different experience. The fact that it became manifest in the actual merger between two denominations shows just how little attention was paid to these points during the negotiations, while the practical implications have played out over time in an ever more liberal fashion.
Now I am told that United Methodists have over time reverted to their former belief in the divinity of Christ, yet this appears officially to be a personal option. And there are additional faith differences that keep the United Methodists from merging with other Methodist and formerly Methodist groups. This is why further progress has not been forthcoming, and in fact the United Methodist Church has lost membership since its formation.
As to the biblical criteria mentioned above, I think these speak for themselves. They are the same criteria that originally convinced me (while I was still Protestant) that Protestant denominationalism made no sense. Again, maybe you have better knowledge. If I am wrong, I will correct what I said above. Just PM me and we’ll sort it out.
David
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Intercessor
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Posted: Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 10:41 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote:
How many Protestant communities are willing to have true unity and peace with the Catholic Church? As you yourself say, many of them look upon Catholics as members of a cult. Many of the members of this forum are facing panicked opposition from family and friends because of this totally unfounded belief.
A painful truth. My relatives exchange wish lists at this time of year. I was informed that my choices (some Catholic classics books) were not acceptable and would not be purchased for me.
In order to restore some peace, I ended up apologizing for having put them on my list. So very sad.
____________________
"The perfection of a soul may be measured by the degree to which it does the will of God, and finds its happiness in doing it.... O my God,...the only thing necessary is Your holy will," Divine Intimacy, pp. 15-16 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Mon Dec 24th, 2007 05:15 pm |
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In one of my old discussions with Reformed Baptist apologist James White (1996), he claimed that there was a "perspicuous [clear] apostolic message" and that everyone knew what it was, from the Bible. I challenged him to tell me what this evident "apostolic message" was with regard to the following 18 questions:- 1.TULIP
- 2. Baptism
- 3. The Eucharist
- 4. Church Government
- 5. Regeneration
- 6. Sanctification
- 7. The Place of Tradition
- 8. Women Clergy
- 9. Divorce
- 10. Feminism
- 11. Abortion
- 12. The Utility of Reason
- 13. Natural Theology
- 14. The Charismatic Gifts
- 15. Alcohol
- 16. Sabbatarianism
- 17. Whether Catholics are Christians
- 18. Civil Disobedience
He never did tell me. He hemmed and hawed and twisted all around thew topic, but never told me what the true teaching was. Fellow apologist Eric Svendsen was also in on the thread and was equally unable to answer at all.
The fact is that Protestants cannot resolve these questions in a definitive way. They disagree, and it is because their institutional structures lack authority and finality.
Another example of Protestant disunity that I often bring up is baptism. So I have written, for example:The same state of affairs is true concerning baptism, where Protestants are split into infant and adult camps. Furthermore, the infant camp contains those who accept baptismal regeneration (Lutherans, Anglicans, and to some extent, Methodists), as does the adult camp (Churches of Christ and Disciples of Christ). Regeneration absolutely has a bearing on salvation, and therefore is a primary doctrine. The Salvation Army and the Quakers don't baptize at all (the latter doesn't even celebrate the Eucharist). Thus, there are five distinct competing belief-systems among Protestants with regard to baptism.
Scripture seems to clearly refer to baptismal regeneration in Acts 2:38 (forgiveness of sins), 22:16 (wash away your sins), Romans 6:3-4, 1 Corinthians 6:11, Titus 3:5 (he saved us, . . . by the washing of regeneration), and other passages.
For this reason, many prominent Protestant individuals and denominations have held to the position of baptismal regeneration, which is anathema to the Baptist / Presbyterian / Reformed branch of Protestantism - the predominant evangelical outlook at present.
I also noted other prominent, important disagreements:Protestants will often maintain that the Eucharist and baptism, for instance, are neither primary nor essential doctrines. This is curious, since these are the two sacraments that the majority of Protestants accept. Jesus said (John 6:53): Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. This certainly sounds essential, even to the extent that a man's salvation might be in jeopardy.
St. Paul, too, regards communion with equally great seriousness and of the utmost importance to one's spiritual well-being and relationship with Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 10:14-22, 11:23-30). Thus we are already in the realm of salvation - a primary doctrine. Lutherans and many Anglicans (for example, the Oxford Tractarians and C.S. Lewis), believe in the Real Presence, whereas most evangelicals do not, yet this is not considered cause for alarm or even discomfort.
Protestants also differ on other soteriological issues: most Methodists, Anglicans, Lutherans, pentecostals, some Baptists, and many non-denominationalists and other groups are Arminian and accept free will and the possibility of falling away from salvation (apostasy), while Presbyterians, Reformed and a few Baptist denominations and other groups are Calvinist and deny free will and the possibility of apostasy for the elect. In contrast to the former denominations, the latter groups have a stronger view of the nature of original sin, and deny that the Atonement is universal.
Traditional, orthodox Methodism (following founder John Wesley) and many "high church" Anglicans have had views of sanctification (that is, the relationship of faith and works, and of God's enabling and preceding grace and man's cooperation) akin to that of Catholicism. These are questions of how one repents and is saved (justification) and of what is required afterwards to either manifest or maintain this salvation (sanctification and perseverance). Thus, they are primary doctrines, even by Protestant criteria.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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MichaelStEdmund
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Posted: Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 10:12 pm |
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Thanks for that last post, Dave.
Within the evangelical groups I've known most of my life, talking about various doctrines in this way just wasn't to be done. What was important was loving and serving Jesus. Actually taking a hard, realistic look at our differences seemed divisive and a waste of time.
That kind of fuzzy thinking in the name of love and fellowship makes real dialogue rather difficult. "As long as you feel good and are serving Jesus, why cause trouble? None of us are going to agree 100% with anyone else - so why does it matter what you or I believe about baptism?"
Can you discuss dogma with someone who is his or her own Magisterium? The ultimate question when I was an evangelical was not, "What does this mean?" but "What does this mean to me?" It was the most common question in any Bible study I was at.
I realise now that I'm asking a question about presenting an apologetic argument. Oh well ...
= M
____________________
"Faith seeking understanding" - St. Anselm of Canterbury.
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Fri Jan 4th, 2008 05:10 pm |
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Hi Michael,
It's a huge topic. Basically I would say that to discuss denominationalism with Protestants, sometimes it is good to get them to be more aware of their own heritage. Luther and Calvin felt very strongly about their beliefs, and thought they were right, and fought for what they believed in. That is admirable, in and of itself, and as far as it goes
But today's Protestants say "ho hum" and "can't we just all get along?" It is a sort of relativism or doctrinal minimalism whereby very little is important except maybe the Trinity, faith alone, and belief in Jesus as personal savior. Protestants in the old days contended for doctrinal disinctives based on the Bible.
I think we always have to stress biblical argumentation with Protestants, but go further and make the point that without an authoritative Church, even the Bible cannot create unity. Never has, never will.
But we have to use the Bible in arguing with them because that is the only final authority they accept and we have this in common, for a common premise, which is necessary in any constructive discussion.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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wisdomseeker
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Posted: Sat Jan 5th, 2008 08:20 pm |
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Darlene wrote: David W. Emery wrote: Not one of these “denominations” is united with another, either institutionally or in faith; otherwise, they would not be separate denominations.
So you see, Protestant denominations simply fail on every criterion of being the true Church of Christianity.
Dear David,
I must strongly disagree with your comments above. I think you are giving a false impression of Protestant Christians, especially when you say that "none of these denominations are united in faith." But, so as not to stir up controversy or be seen as divisive, I will leave it at that. You don't want folks to have wrong impressions of Roman Catholics, but I suggest that you need to reconsider that you might well be doing the same thing regarding the above statements.
Sincerely in Christ's Love,
Darlene
you are right darlene in one thing. i believe that all protestant have one thing in common, there is, no catholics are saved and they are not christians. yep! they all agree on this. the truth must be said although it hurts some. i don't believe catholics have to do anything to cause wrong impression. just think of how many years catholics have suffer from protestants, the lies about the church, calunias, how many people have left the faith because of horrible accusations against the CC? do i have to say more?Last edited on Sat Jan 5th, 2008 08:35 pm by wisdomseeker
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tedjenczewski
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Posted: Sat Jan 5th, 2008 09:42 pm |
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| I am reading Eusubius "History of the Church", and in the past I have read a lot of the pre-Nicea fathers. It appears to me that correct doctrine was VERY VERY important to the fathers. Those accused of teaching novel doctrine not received through the apostolic tradition were considered as devouring wolves in the flock of Christ and to be accursed, and were to be removed from the family of God. Should not correct doctrine be as important in the present age?
____________________
"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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Intercessor
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Posted: Sat Jan 5th, 2008 09:55 pm |
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wisdomseeker wrote:
you are right darlene in one thing. i believe that all protestant have one thing in common, there is, no catholics are saved and they are not christians. yep! they all agree on this.
Oh, my! Please use qualifiers. Dangerous words: all, none, every, always, never, no.
Perhaps you meant to use the term fundamentalists, rather than protestants. There are millions of protestants who would never dream of saying no Catholics are Christians.
____________________
"The perfection of a soul may be measured by the degree to which it does the will of God, and finds its happiness in doing it.... O my God,...the only thing necessary is Your holy will," Divine Intimacy, pp. 15-16 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Jan 5th, 2008 10:44 pm |
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wisdomseeker wrote: i believe that all protestant have one thing in common, there is, no catholics are saved and they are not christians. yep! they all agree on this.
I have to take issue with this statement. The majority of Protestants (although maybe not most of those in the American south) certainly believe that Catholics are Christians. Even those fundamentalists who believe that the Church is Satan on earth will admit that a Catholic who accepts Jesus as his personal Savior and develops a personal relationship with God can be saved, even if they believe it will be in spite of the Church rather than because of it.
Generalizations are very difficult. We cannot generalize about Protestants because so many of them are sincere, God-fearing people who are living their lives as best they know how. And they cannot generalize about Catholics as individuals, and most of them realize it.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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wisdomseeker
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Posted: Sun Jan 6th, 2008 08:11 pm |
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tell me brother about that. you might hear few protestants here and there saying that we are christians. but if you listen close they really do not believe that. nothing against them, all my friends are protestants very loving people and we have a good relationship as long as i dont mention nothing about my faith and i know how much they want get me out of the CC. so this is my experience with them. you might have better experiences i dont know. God bless.
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MichaelStEdmund
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Posted: Mon Jan 7th, 2008 10:22 am |
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tedjenczewski wrote:
I am reading Eusubius "History of the Church", and in the past I have read a lot of the pre-Nicea fathers. It appears to me that correct doctrine was VERY VERY important to the fathers. Those accused of teaching novel doctrine not received through the apostolic tradition were considered as devouring wolves in the flock of Christ and to be accursed, and were to be removed from the family of God. Should not correct doctrine be as important in the present age?
Many of the Church Fathers had the advantage of being well-trained in classical Greek philosophy (Plato and probably Aristotle to a lesser extent). As anyone who has been through a good Philosophy 101 course knows, fuzzy thinking is verboten, especially when you get to Aristotle. Christianity benefited HUGELY from this in being driven to a "high definition" sort of clarity regarding our essential beliefs. With a wide variety of groups voicing every opinion possible, they drew on Scripture, the apostolic tradition, their classical intellectual heritage, and hammered out something completely amazing. Even now I look at some of the miniscule, hair-splitting (to me) disagreements they had, and think, "Why is that important???" Then St. Athanasius gives me a slap and tells me that my thinking is just ... too ... fuzzy!
____________________
"Faith seeking understanding" - St. Anselm of Canterbury.
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Robert
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Posted: Thu Jan 10th, 2008 02:31 pm |
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Denominations
The hardest thing for me in discussing „Denominations“ is not what the denomination’s official teachings are, but what the individual follower really believes.
Within any given group one finds folks who mix any number of protestant elements to form their own belief structure and at the same time are members of a denominational group.
The Catholic Church is not a denomination, but rather the THE Church, and as such the root of practically all Protestant denominations steming from the split with Rome and later the so called “Reformation”.
Here in Germany we really do not get the overt protestant Anti-Catholicism like in the US. Mainland Europe never really went thorough the 19th century American Nativism cum No-Nothings phase that produced folks like Alexander Hislop, Maria Monk, and W.C. Brownlee. The later day offshoots e.g. J.T. Chick, Loraine Boettner, and David Hunt, also have their basis in the writings of this era.
Unfortunatly since the wall came down the "evagelicals" who spread the garbage produced by the folks mentiontioned above, are getting stronger. Their main area of "operations" is of course the former atheistic eastern part of the country. A German Chick tract is not at all uncommon any more.
____________________
Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3:15)
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Evelyn
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Posted: Fri Jan 18th, 2008 05:06 pm |
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| The Salvation Army doesn't practice any sacraments (baptism nor communion) -- no different from the Quakers.
____________________
Only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared.
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Evelyn
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Posted: Fri Jan 18th, 2008 05:08 pm |
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Click Here
"The Salvation Army and the Quakers don’t baptize at all (and neither celebrate the Eucharist)."
This is correct.
NOTE: Edited to shorten link. Last edited on Sat Jan 19th, 2008 09:30 pm by
____________________
Only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared.
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Fri Jan 18th, 2008 10:57 pm |
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"The Salvation Army and the Quakers don’t baptize at all (and neither celebrate the Eucharist)."
This is correct.
That was my statement. Thanks for the verification! I'm curious: do you know how this position is argued in light of a seeming biblical command to both get baptized and to receive communion?
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Evelyn
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| Joined: | Fri Jan 18th, 2008 |
| Location: | Tallinn, Estonia |
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| First Name: | Evelyn | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | The Salvation Army |
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 06:26 am |
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Here is as good an answer as any:
Click Here
I basically believe that the SA's position and the RCC's position are the most logical ones: it is all or nothing.
The best argument today, I believe, is that the SA is to be a prophetic witness to the rest of the Body of Christ, that it is possible to be a Christian, to be saved, without the sacraments. I am afraid that this is like saying it is possible to play tennis with only one arm (why would you want to?).
NOTE: Edited to shorten link
Last edited on Sat Jan 19th, 2008 09:31 pm by
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Only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared.
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Evelyn
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| Joined: | Fri Jan 18th, 2008 |
| Location: | Tallinn, Estonia |
| Posts: | 14 |
| First Name: | Evelyn | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | The Salvation Army |
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 06:33 am |
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