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BDisraeli
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| Location: | Salt Lake City, Utah USA |
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Posted: Tue Jun 19th, 2007 10:19 pm |
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Click here to read the article.
:?
NOTE: Edited to shorten link.
Last edited on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 01:03 am by
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Darlene
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Posted: Tue Jun 19th, 2007 11:56 pm |
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Seems that for Episcopalians, ANYTHING GOES. The sooner that church just crumbles to the ground, the better. They are misleading people and are blind guides. I'm waiting for the day when the Episcopal church allows for Satan worshippers among their so called "flock."
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Wed Jun 20th, 2007 12:26 am |
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| To say that The Rev. Ann Holmes Redding is both Muslim and Christian, is to say that she is neither, right? Do Christians believe Muhammad was a prophet? I've never heard that. I know Muslims don't believe Jesus is the son of God, in fact they get angry about it.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Jun 20th, 2007 12:35 am |
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From the news article:
As much as she loves her church, she has always challenged it. She calls Christianity the "world religion of privilege." She has never believed in original sin. And for years she struggled with the nature of Jesus' divinity.
Evidently it was quite easy for Redding to accept Muslim beliefs; she already accepted them as a purported Christian. The one difference she saw between the two religions was that the Muslims actually believe what they teach. She states that more than anything, it was this that attracted her to Islam. So I guess we can judge her act as a move toward faith.
None of this is surprising when considering Anglicanism. Queen Elizabeth I is cited by scholars as not caring what the adherents believed inwardly, so long as they followed the outward form. Somehow this sounds very familiar. Something about phariseeism, I believe. And her bishop approves.
David
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Wed Jun 20th, 2007 12:45 am |
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| David, are you being cynical or am I being dense?
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Wed Jun 20th, 2007 05:10 am |
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I was under the understanding that to be christian you must believe in the Triune God?
If she believes in the Trinity then how could she be excepted by Islamic beliefs. I guess I was thinking that the issue of "ONE GOD" in the muslim faith would be a manditory doctrine for their faith.
I've never felt the muslim faith was one of wishy washy doctrines and the open minded mind set that would allow any members to believe both ways or any way they see fit.
Where does that play into her new muslim beliefs? I don't know why, but this decision strikes me as some "New Age" thing? We're all OK sort of buisness. We can believe any way we want, even though she's a pastor in a christian church. I can only imagine what type of mixing of teaching she may bring into her congregation.
What about her congregation, is she just leading them into further confusion? Those poor people, they have had enough of these types of problems.
I've never been one to consider putting lititure on the car windows at another church. But I think her poor congregation could truly use some life/faith saving "Pillar of Fire" booklets.
We should all pray for the members of her church, that's just not right what shes doing to them. She could really cause some serious damage in the faith of her congragation, that's just not right to do to your members. SAD
This is just bazzare to me? Just my HO
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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JasPax
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Posted: Wed Jun 20th, 2007 09:24 am |
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Hello:
No one should be surprised at this. Buddist monks have led the processional at services in the National Cathedral in Washington, D.C.
The mystery to most Christians is how any sane person can remain in the Episcopal Church. The answeer is that they think congregationally. "That's not us!"
Ah, but it is you.
____________________
James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Jun 20th, 2007 10:01 am |
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Credo Catholic wrote:
David, are you being cynical or am I being dense?
Only slightly, Marsha. My main object was to describe what was happening in spiritual terms. The most amazing thing to me was that the lady’s bishop has no problem with her being suspended between two religions. Perhaps he is of similar persuasion.
BettyBoopToo wrote:I was under the understanding that to be christian you must believe in the Triune God? If she believes in the Trinity then how could she be excepted by Islamic beliefs.
The article quotes an observer to the effect that she accepts the Trinity only as a “concept,” not as a matter of faith. In other words, if you reject the divinity of Christ (as it is reported that she does), the triune God becomes mere terminology without substance.
I don't know why, but this decision strikes me as some "New Age" thing.
This thought crossed my mind, too. But on further reflection, I believe it is the result of what in the Catholic Church would be called the heresy of Modernism. We could then note that, historically, Modernism came before and probably led intellectually and spiritually into New Age. So they are probably related.
Credo Catholic wrote:To say that The Rev. Ann Holmes Redding is both Muslim and Christian, is to say that she is neither, right?
As I mentioned in my previous post, I believe she has made a “move toward faith” in becoming a Muslim. In other words, I accept that her Christian faith is an empty shell, and presume that in Islam she has finally begun to find a genuine faith in God. We may see her later on (in spite of her current protestation) dropping her pretense of Christianity.
David
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smh
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Posted: Wed Jun 20th, 2007 10:14 am |
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This whole "conversion" seems to be more about prayer than anything else. I say that because I was watching TV one evening, and there were scenes of Muslim prayer being shown. I remember thinking a couple of things. One, that the posture of head to the ground definitely seems to show a reverence that is sometimes lacking in Christian prayer. Two, that they (appear to) take prayer seriously enough to do it 5 times a day.
That being said, I would have thought this "priest" would have served her congregation, and the Christian community as a whole, much better had she found a way to implement the reverence and respect for prayer that she observed in Islam into HER own church. St. Paul DOES say "pray without ceasing"... It appears though that she has disconnected her foray in to Islam and her congregation. Frankly I can't believe her congregation didn't boot her out!
I also find her statements about "people of color" in Islam (and feeling like she was 'coming home') distressing, because in the Islamic world there IS racism, and much of it (historically) against blacks. (I'll refrain from "getting on a soapbox" about that here.)
That this woman has been moved by Islamic prayer makes me believe that she probably had no prayer life of her own prior to making her statement of faith in Islam.
I have had the great privilege and blessing of being able to pray at the Western Wall in Jerusalem, and let me tell you, you can feel the Spirit of God there. The Psalmist says that God inhabits the praises of His people, so, to me, any place like that where folks are praying 24/7 is a place where you KNOW He is. I have to wonder, had she prayed at the wall, would she have decided to be both a Christian and a Jew?
____________________
Sue
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heardclarke
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Posted: Wed Jun 20th, 2007 11:43 am |
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Dear friends,
Can you really be surprised by this?
Allow me to refer to C.S. Lewis once again:
"Please," said the Lamb, "I can't understand. What have we to do with the Calormenes? We belong to Aslan. They belong to Tash.....They kill Men on his altar. I don't believe there's any such person as Tash. But if there were, how could Aslan be friends with him?"
....The Ape jumped up and spat at the Lamb.... "Go home to your mother and drink milk. What do you understand of such things? But the others, listen. Tash is only another name for Aslan. All that old idea of us being right and the Calormenes wrong is silly We know better now.The Calormenes use different words but we all mean the same thing."
C.S. Lewis, The Last Battle
I strongly recommend that any of you who haven't read the Narnia series do so if you have the chance. It is amazing how applicable it is to the things we are dealing with today, though it was written in the 1950s.
For avid readers who would like even more challenging material, the Lewis Space Trilogy is not to be missed. The 3rd book, That Hideous Strength, is the most relevant to this topic. It can be read apart from the other two if need be. They are exquisite "prequels", however.
You may not think this has much to do with the issue we are discussing, but look and see for yourself.
A professor of mine once used to say something to the effect that, "The main purpose of your education here is so that when someone is talking rot, you will be able to tell."
(Thanks again, Dr. Benson.)
Lisa
____________________
Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
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Darlene
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Posted: Wed Jun 20th, 2007 12:28 pm |
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JasPax wrote: Hello:
No one should be surprised at this. Buddist monks have led the processional at services in the National Cathedral in Washington, D.C.
The mystery to most Christians is how any sane person can remain in the Episcopal Church. The answeer is that they think congregationally. "That's not us!"
Ah, but it is you.
JaxPax,
I know exactly what you mean. My husband's family is Episcopalian. The last church they attended had a homosexual priest, who had divorced his wife and was living with his lover. Now, they attend a more conservative Episcopal church. On Mother's Day, my mother-in-law tried to convince my husband of how much he would like their priest. She said, "He's Italian with a good sense of humor and he's married." My husband's reply, "I like him already."  Of course, they were comparing the current priest with the former "gay" priest, although the former's name was never even mentioned in the conversation.
My mother-in-law would never consider herself a part of that Episcopal church in California. But, soon the perversion will come to her church as well. And then what will she do? She is a diehard Episcopalian and seems to be wearing blinders.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Darlene
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Posted: Wed Jun 20th, 2007 12:37 pm |
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heardclarke wrote: Dear friends,
Can you really be surprised by this?
Allow me to refer to C.S. Lewis once again:
"Please," said the Lamb, "I can't understand. What have we to do with the Calormenes? We belong to Aslan. They belong to Tash.....They kill Men on his altar. I don't believe there's any such person as Tash. But if there were, how could Aslan be friends with him?"
....The Ape jumped up and spat at the Lamb.... "Go home to your mother and drink milk. What do you understand of such things? But the others, listen. Tash is only another name for Aslan. All that old idea of us being right and the Calormenes wrong is silly We know better now.The Calormenes use different words but we all mean the same thing."
C.S. Lewis, The Last Battle
I strongly recommend that any of you who haven't read the Narnia series do so if you have the chance. It is amazing how applicable it is to the things we are dealing with today, though it was written in the 1950s.
For avid readers who would like even more challenging material, the Lewis Space Trilogy is not to be missed. The 3rd book, That Hideous Strength, is the most relevant to this topic. It can be read apart from the other two if need be. They are exquisite "prequels", however.
You may not think this has much to do with the issue we are discussing, but look and see for yourself.
A professor of mine once used to say something to the effect that, "The main purpose of your education here is so that when someone is talking rot, you will be able to tell."
(Thanks again, Dr. Benson.)
Lisa
Lisa, I can't help but wonder had C.S. Lewis lived longer to see the demise of the Anglican Church, he too, would have jumped the Tiber. I don't think he could have ever imagined that the church would have stooped this low. Then again, perhaps he would not have been surprised in the least. "The Great Divorce" is on my list of books to read this summer. Our children loved the Narnia series. May our brother C.S. Lewis rest in peace.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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heardclarke
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Posted: Wed Jun 20th, 2007 12:52 pm |
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Dear Darlene and others,
I agree with J. that the Episcopalians do think congregationally. They see the problem as being "out there" somewhere --on the West Coast, on the East Coast, wherever all those "liberals" are. This is one reason why the election of Gene Robinson could be ratified at General Convention. The conservatives are happy if they can just say "OUR priests aren't like that."
Of course, once you study Church history and learn about heresy, it turns out that believing a priest's opinion or personality can make the Eucharist valid or invalid IS a heresy. I forget which one, exactly, but I seem to remember they addressed way back at the Council of Nicaea.
Oops, I forgot, they don't really believe there's any such thing as heresy, do they? 
The problem is, Muslims DO believe in right and wrong, and they believe that their way is the ONLY right way, as this "priestess" will eventually find out.
We have a book called Inside Islam: A Guide for Catholics by Daniel Ali and Robt. Spencer. I would recommend it if anyone is curious about the teachings of that faith.
Lisa
____________________
Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
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JoyfulOne
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Posted: Wed Jun 20th, 2007 02:26 pm |
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Everything that happens in the Episcopal church just confirms to me that swimming the Tiber was the right thing to do.
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Annie
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Posted: Wed Jun 20th, 2007 03:36 pm |
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smh wrote: That this woman has been moved by Islamic prayer makes me believe that she probably had no prayer life of her own prior to making her statement of faith in Islam.
Can this be why the Catholic code of canon law requires priests to pray the Liturgy of the Hours daily? How many actually do, of course, is another thing. I recently heard somebody say nobody takes canon law seriously any more.
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
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BodRod
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Posted: Wed Jun 20th, 2007 07:40 pm |
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| With her lack of ability to make a decision and go with it, she should be in politics, not religion. Also, her apparent need to bring non-christian religions into christain circles without expecting or even hoping for change suggests to me that she has a severe lack of judgment, reasoning and logic. I wonder if she is planning on writing a book !
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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JillD
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Posted: Wed Jun 20th, 2007 09:04 pm |
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Sometimes I take comfort in what makes the news. I figure that for a thing to be newsworthy, it must be odd or unusual or rare. This story is hopefully all of the above.
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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sewnsew
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Posted: Thu Jun 21st, 2007 09:56 pm |
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| Well I have been trying to explain my "Tiber Swim" to my niminal episcopalian side of the family- I kept saying that it wasn't only the gay bishop but other issues too. The problem was that they had never really thought about what they believed so I can point to this article as back up to my opinion that "anything" goes in the Episcopal church as long as the outward appearance doesn't change.
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heardclarke
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Posted: Fri Jun 22nd, 2007 09:41 am |
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Dear Kim,
Here's a short list of issues you could ask them about, if you are feeling ambitious.
1. Abortion (What if the baby will have Down's Syndrome or other challenges?)
2. Birth control (and giving it to teenagers)
3. Euthanasia (What about feeding tubes like in Terry Schiavo's case?)
4. Divorced clergy (a logical by product of married clergy, after all)
5. Gay marriage as a sacrament (not just for equal benefits or "next of kin" rights)
6. Heresy (Is it real?)
7. Homosexuality (as a lifestyle, not a tendency)
8. Mortal sin: does it exist, and what do you do if it does?
9. Premarital sex and #8
10. Should/can women be priests and bishops? (What is a priest anyway?)
Most of these questions are answered one way by Catholics and the opposite way by Episcopalians almost every time. It might surprise them to learn that C.S. Lewis, who most Episcopalians think of as a champion for Anglicanism, answers these the "Catholic way."
Finally, here is a shocker from the University of the South in Sewanee, TN (most Episcopalians think it is a "traditional" place). There is a theology professor there whose primary area of reasearch is on dolphins. This professor believes that dolphins have been the victims of discrimination and should be treated with more human respect. In fact, these intelligent and sensitive creatures should be evangelized and admitted to Communion.
Note that the professor is in the theology school, NOT the undergraduate college.
I swear I am not making this up. I got it from a fellow alum who graduated from the college last year. He's not making it up either--says it's known on campus. I haven't asked the University about it but I'll be we could find out about it if we searched the Web. In fact I think I'll try that and get back to you.
Lisa
____________________
Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
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sewnsew
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Posted: Fri Jun 22nd, 2007 02:10 pm |
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heardclarke wrote: Dear Kim,
Here's a short list of issues you could ask them about, if you are feeling ambitious.
1. Abortion (What if the baby will have Down's Syndrome or other challenges?) Actually that has already been brought up as in "How can you belong to a church that won't allow abortions?"
2. Birth control (and giving it to teenagers) One of my sister asked if I was now going to take my 14 yo off of bc-was shocked to find out that she wasn't on already- she plans to put her on at 13 years old11
3. Euthanasia (What about feeding tubes like in Terry Schiavo's case?) I am still traumatised by that decision- we have a special need kid and to be fair to my family they opposed that decision too- one of the few areas we do agree!
4. Divorced clergy (a logical by product of married clergy, after all) They are pro
5. Gay marriage as a sacrament (not just for equal benefits or "next of kin" rights) Hey No problem- however I am now considered a homophobic bigot
6. Heresy (Is it real?) Not in their minds
7. Homosexuality (as a lifestyle, not a tendency) Not a problem
8. Mortal sin: does it exist, and what do you do if it does? Who cares
9. Premarital sex and #8 some of my siblings are common law not real marriages and the same sis that has the bc issues criticized our school when they disciplined my 15 yo boy when they found a picture of a victoria secret model on his school laptop and was horrified to learn that we upheld the punishment with our home computer use- she told me that she never checked the computer and just told her boys to stay away from kiddie porn and beastialiy
10. Should/can women be priests and bishops? (What is a priest anyway?) OF course they should
Most of these questions are answered one way by Catholics and the opposite way by Episcopalians almost every time. It might surprise them to learn that C.S. Lewis, who most Episcopalians think of as a champion for Anglicanism, answers these the "Catholic way."
Finally, here is a shocker from the University of the South in Sewanee, TN (most Episcopalians think it is a "traditional" place). There is a theology professor there whose primary area of reasearch is on dolphins. This professor believes that dolphins have been the victims of discrimination and should be treated with more human respect. In fact, these intelligent and sensitive creatures should be evangelized and admitted to Communion.
Note that the professor is in the theology school, NOT the undergraduate college.
I swear I am not making this up. I got it from a fellow alum who graduated from the college last year. He's not making it up either--says it's known on campus. I haven't asked the University about it but I'll be we could find out about it if we searched the Web. In fact I think I'll try that and get back to you.
Lisa
As you can see from my answers we have already covered these areas and that is why I am now CATHOLIC TBTG and they have lapsed from nominal Episcopalian to unitarian!
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heardclarke
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Posted: Fri Jun 22nd, 2007 03:14 pm |
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Wow, that's worse than I thought.
Hang in there. You are witnessing to the truth and if you are called a homophobe or worse it means you got under somebody's skin.
I was brushed off rather coldly by a former friend last Sunday at my husband's church, and it stung, until I remembered that she was aggressively unrepentant about her abortion she had some years ago. That explains why my conversion was unacceptable to her.
Good luck. Be strong.
Lisa
____________________
Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 03:07 am |
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"It wasn't about intellect," she said. "All I know is the calling of my heart to Islam was very much something about my identity and who I am supposed to be.
"I could not not be a Muslim.""
Taken from the Seattle Times posted at the top of this thread.
So sayeth the Rev. Ann Holmes Redding in the article posted in this thread.
She couldn't have been more correct about her decision to become a Muslim not being about "intellect." Insofar as her exaggerated concerns about her identity are concerned, she has really missed the boat. Somebody ought point out to her that her relationship with God along with her identity are upside down. It's not about her: It's about God. And it is about her identity as a Christian, not as a Muslim that she should come to grips with first.
She's committed the sin of Pride, the mother of 'em all.
C'mon lady, you can't have it both ways. How any woman, much less a supposedly "progressive" minded Episcopal cleric (working out of her dioceses Cathedral, no less, would want to join the faith of the Taliban, al Qaeda, and the fruitcakes in Teheran is beyond me. I'm trying to be a good sport about all this, but she is living proof that the Episcopal Church is beyond repair if this woman who should be defrocked (ex post facto) isn't thrown out of their priesthood.
This is a denomination that allows its bishop in Connecticut to toss out traditionalist priests who objected to the homosexual bishop from New Hampshire. And it's a denomination that allows one of its priests in western Massachusetts to pull of the stunt of holding a "fast" on weddings until gays get their special liturgy, which even traditionalist priests in his diocese and perhaps the entire nation will have to perform if they want to keep their collars.
This is a denomination that allowed this imposter of both Christianity and her particular denomination to have it both ways as a priest and a Muslim for the past 15 months. Fifteen months and they didn't do anything about it. Either she bamboozled her bishop (which giving the ECUSA's "leadership" these days would take much doing), or worse, she and her bishop have been trying to have it every which they can, while covering for her apostasy and scandal of professing to being a Christian cleric and a Muslim at the same time.
This is a denomination that has lost all credibility.
Boy oh boy, wasn't it wonderful seeing her dressed to her Muslim nines in her Chador or Burka. This is disgusting not only because of her duplicity here, but what does it send as a message to our soldiers fighting in Afghanistan, and the brave women of Afghanistan who've had to put up with a "government" that had nothing for a national program except to turn the clock back some thousands of years. Has this Seattle cleric already forgotten the videos of Taliban thugs shooting the women under their Burkas in the Kabul main soccer stadium?
To be completely as non-politically correct as I can be for this instance, I will agree that not every Muslim approved of the 9/11 atrocities, but every guy who took those planes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and crashed into a Pennsylvanian field were Muslims.
What a wonderful world!
s.
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For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5353 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2007 09:40 pm |
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According to published reports, the Rev. Ann Holmes has been suspended by the Episcopal Church.
The article was reported by the Christian Post and can be read here.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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