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Pani Rose
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Posted: Sun Oct 28th, 2007 06:04 pm |
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I just noticed this was not posted on here, and I thought it might be benficial. They would enter by a provision that is already in place, most likely maintaining their liturgy, and small 't' traditions...
PORTSMOUTH, UK: Traditional Anglican Communion Seeks Full Union With Rome
Statement authorized by the TAC Primate
16th October 2007
"The College of Bishops of the Traditional Anglican Communion (TAC) met in Plenary Session in Portsmouth, England, in the first week of October 2007. The Bishops and Vicars-General unanimously agreed to the text of a letter to the See of Rome seeking full, corporate, sacramental union. The letter was signed solemnly by all the College and en-trusted to the Primate and two bishops chosen by the College to be presented to the Holy See.
The letter was cordially received at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. The Primate of the TAC has agreed that no member of the College will give interviews until the Holy See has considered the letter and responded."
+ John Hepworth
Primate TAC
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Oct 28th, 2007 07:08 pm |
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Thanks, Rose. We did not have the actual text of the statement, although we did have a news article that included the information here. Complete communion could add half a million members to the Catholic Church in the most significant reunion in a very long time.
If agreement can be reached, it will certainly be a glorious day.
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Br_Carlo
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Posted: Mon Oct 29th, 2007 08:58 am |
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God's peace. As I expected, not everyone in Anglicanism is happy about this. I have already read letters from several folks that are highly-placed in "anglocatholicism" that suggest that TAC is an unimportant marginal group and that some sort of "great awakening" is just around the corner for the Episcopal Church.
Of course, we've all been hearing that sort of stuff for years and years. Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~
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sewnsew
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Posted: Mon Oct 29th, 2007 12:29 pm |
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| Yeah right- exactly what kind of "awakening" is possible?:?
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sewnsew
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Posted: Mon Oct 29th, 2007 12:52 pm |
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| I do wonder if it is possble for the TAC to reunite though as a whole group- as Eric Bergmen in his interview on TJH pointed out so many Anglicans are compromised ( including clergy) by divorce and remarriage. The TAC may not have female priests but have they also resisted the divorce and remarriage issue?
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JasPax
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Posted: Mon Oct 29th, 2007 05:30 pm |
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kimdyuma wrote: The TAC may not have female priests but have they also resisted the divorce and remarriage issue?
Kim, You make a good point. Based on my limited experience with a TAC parish locally, almost all are refugees from the U.S. Episcopal Church. So no doubt in some cases there would be various past marriage problems that would need to be worked out.
A bigger problem might be how to help the people get over their long-taught (from the U.S. EC) anti-Rome bias.
Still, this reunification would be a great thing. Many Catholics (Roman) could learn a thing or two from them about solemn, worshipful, liturgy as they use the 1928 Book of Common Prayer at the present. When I visited, I felt transported back to my youth in the 1960's.
God's Blessings,
____________________
James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Oct 29th, 2007 05:31 pm |
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kimdyuma wrote: I do wonder if it is possble for the TAC to reunite though as a whole group- as Eric Bergmen in his interview on TJH pointed out so many Anglicans are compromised ( including clergy) by divorce and remarriage. The TAC may not have female priests but have they also resisted the divorce and remarriage issue?
I understand even the primate is divorced and remarried, and all TAC bishops have pledged to submit their cases individually to the Church for evaluation.
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tcvaughn
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Posted: Mon Oct 29th, 2007 06:59 pm |
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| My understanding is that TAC is also seeking for permission to have married priests. I don't know if that means as provided by the Pastoral Provision, or if they are seeking some additional concession such as for the eastern Catholic churches.
____________________
Tom
I am a very old man and my memory has gone. But I remember two things: that I am a great sinner and that Jesus is a great saviour. - John Newton
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Ken Follis
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Posted: Mon Oct 29th, 2007 07:56 pm |
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This TAC venture is very courageous and commendable.
Can a divorced/ remarried layman (or clergy) be confirmed without an annullment? Is that the issue?
Can they not just enter the Church by baptism or by a Profession of Faith if they are baptized?
Once they are in, can they then be given the penance of not receiving the Eucharist but allowed to spiritually commune until, and if, they are to have their marriages annulled? I think that is what the Church teaches.
In addition, it is highly likely that the Bishops will have to "turn in their mitres" if they are married and be priests, if they meet the qualifications to be such.
A former CEC priest now Catholic (D. Zampino) wrote me this is response to the news, "I would rejoice greatly if the TAC is successful. Of all the various Continuing Anglican bodies, the TAC is presenting a unified front, in quite a few countries. About 12-15 years ago, a group of about 700 Anglican clergy (all levels) approached the late Basil Cardinal Hume with a request for corporate reunion; sadly the Cardinal turned them down. Unfortunately, it does not appear that Rome has a mechanism for receiving large groups at a time. I hope that such a mechanism can be developed."
Unlike the PNCC and CEC, the TAC wants absorption. This is almost unheard of. It calls to mind the Nestorians returning a few centuries back. The TAC is the largest non-PECUSA Anglican communion in the US. As a convert from the CEC, my heart is overjoyed by the prospects. My prayer is that finally the Vatican will see that many Anglicans are willing to enter the fold for the sake of unity, on Rome's terms. Psalms 133
Last edited on Mon Oct 29th, 2007 07:59 pm by Ken Follis
____________________
Jer. 6:16 "Stand, Look, Ask and Walk!"
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sewnsew
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Posted: Mon Oct 29th, 2007 09:40 pm |
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| I bet that it isn't even mentioned in the Episcopal church or the "new" Anglican church in our town ( which is assosiated with CANA I believe)- and since it is Monday my kids have settled down and think THAT maybe things will go better at church NEXT week:X
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Oct 29th, 2007 11:27 pm |
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Ken Follis wrote: This TAC venture is very courageous and commendable.
It is indeed.
Can a divorced/ remarried layman (or clergy) be confirmed without an annullment? Is that the issue?
I don't think there is an issue. Based on what I've read, those who are divorced and remarried have accepted that they will need to present themselves to the judgement of the Church on the validity of their marriages.
Can they not just enter the Church by baptism or by a Profession of Faith if they are baptized?
Not if they are in irregular marriages. Otherwise, yes they can, but their orders may not be automatically recognized. It is my understanding they seek to have their orders recognized if they are not in irregular marriages. That appears to be the issue in question.
Once they are in, can they then be given the penance of not receiving the Eucharist but allowed to spiritually commune until, and if, they are to have their marriages annulled? I think that is what the Church teaches.
Not quite. Those in irregular marriages are encouraged to participate fully in the life of the Church,but are not permitted to enter the sacramental life. They cannot have their sins absolved if they remain in what the Church considers a sinful marital situation. Apparently the TAC has accepted this caveat, and understands that those in irregular marriages will not be automatically admitted to the Catholic Church but will have to have their cases judged individually.
In addition, it is highly likely that the Bishops will have to "turn in their mitres" if they are married and be priests, if they meet the qualifications to be such.
That appears to be what they are seeking, and the Vatican is likely to accept those who are not in irregular marriages. They will have to take a vow of celibacy, which would prevent them from remarriage if their current marriages ended for any reason. It is possible, however, that they would be accepted to the presbytery but not the episcopacy. They appear to be willing to accept this.
Unfortunately, it does not appear that Rome has a mechanism for receiving large groups at a time. I hope that such a mechanism can be developed."
The Holy Father has turned this over to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which (almost by definition) will be more amenable to a reunion. The Catholic Church has not yet issued a response, but the fact that that is has been handed to CDF is a very positive sign.
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tcvaughn
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Posted: Tue Oct 30th, 2007 10:52 am |
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| It seems to me that the bigger issue for the clergy might be recognition of the validity of their Holy Orders. Since Pope Leo XIII re-affirmed the Church teaching on the invalidity of Anglican ordinations, then the clergy will almost certainly have to be re-ordained. This, in turn, will require most, if not all, to return to seminary for additional training. However, if the CDF can work it out, this should be a tremendous encouragement to other Anglican groups about the openness of the Holy See to receiving them, and toward the goal of unity. I, for one, will be praying for God to clear the road for TAC.
____________________
Tom
I am a very old man and my memory has gone. But I remember two things: that I am a great sinner and that Jesus is a great saviour. - John Newton
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Oct 30th, 2007 04:02 pm |
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tcvaughn wrote: It seems to me that the bigger issue for the clergy might be recognition of the validity of their Holy Orders. Since Pope Leo XIII re-affirmed the Church teaching on the invalidity of Anglican ordinations, then the clergy will almost certainly have to be re-ordained. This, in turn, will require most, if not all, to return to seminary for additional training. However, if the CDF can work it out, this should be a tremendous encouragement to other Anglican groups about the openness of the Holy See to receiving them, and toward the goal of unity. I, for one, will be praying for God to clear the road for TAC.
My understanding is that they are seeking to be absorbed into the Latin Rite, perhaps along similar lines as the Anglican Use priests who are fully subject to the ordinary of the diocese in which they reside. If so, I don't see an insurmountable problem. Even if a few classes would be needed (it shouldn't be many), it could be followed by a mass ordination in each diocese which would encompass a profession of faith, an ordination, and an incardination to welcome the priests into the diocese. Of course, this would not apply to any priests in irregular marital situations, and the priests would have to be willing to accept celibacy in the event their wives should pass away.
What a glorious celebration that would be! I am confident CDF will work out the details. I just won't hold my breath waiting for it to happen. (Sometimes I think the Vatican uses God's clock, in which a moment is like a thousand years...)
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tcvaughn
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Posted: Tue Oct 30th, 2007 04:53 pm |
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(Sometimes I think the Vatican uses God's clock, in which a moment is like a thousand years...)
Actually, God might be faster... 
____________________
Tom
I am a very old man and my memory has gone. But I remember two things: that I am a great sinner and that Jesus is a great saviour. - John Newton
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Ken Follis
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Posted: Tue Oct 30th, 2007 05:04 pm |
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Rick,
Thank you for the insightful answers. One thing is still unclear to me: Can a divorced and remarried layman make their Profession of Faith if they are validly baptized already? Would they not then be considered Catholic but penitents who cannot receive the Sacraments of Confirmation, Reconciliation, Ordination, Marriage, or Eucharist? In other words, is there a difference between a validly baptized Roman Catholic who divorced and remarried and a validly baptized Protestant who divorced and remarried? Please forgive me for making it difficult. My reason for pushing this issue is that many Protestants want to come home but they think they can't because of the sin of adultery. If this is the true, then should not all grave sin be issues? What am I missing here? Can they not be Catholics who are in excommunication? They need to have the same welcome as we did, IMHO.(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm) I am willing to be corrected on this, if need be.
____________________
Jer. 6:16 "Stand, Look, Ask and Walk!"
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Pani Rose
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Posted: Tue Oct 30th, 2007 05:57 pm |
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Here is an interesting and encouraging article on 'convalidation'. One of the couples the man was Jewish and divorced. Maybe it can help, of give some resources.
http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0604.asp
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Oct 30th, 2007 10:32 pm |
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Ken Follis wrote: Rick,
Thank you for the insightful answers. One thing is still unclear to me: Can a divorced and remarried layman make their Profession of Faith if they are validly baptized already? Would they not then be considered Catholic but penitents who cannot receive the Sacraments of Confirmation, Reconciliation, Ordination, Marriage, or Eucharist?
Then what's the point? They are already Christian by virtue of their baptism. When they are preparing for admission, they are known as "Candidates for Full Communion with the Catholic Church". If they can't receive the sacraments, they can't come into full communion, so it leaves them exactly where they were before.
A person is considered Catholic at the Rite of Welcome, generally celebrated on the First Sunday of Advent. After that point they are considered full members of the Catholic Church except that they are not yet able to participate in the sacramental life of the Church. Anyone who regularly attends mass would be considered the same. The only real benefit to "membership" without the sacraments is that a non-Catholic then becomes eligible to have a funeral mass. Then again, any priest can celebrate a funeral mass for any baptized Christian under the proper circumstances.
In other words, is there a difference between a validly baptized Roman Catholic who divorced and remarried and a validly baptized Protestant who divorced and remarried?
Yes, in that the divorced and remarried Protestant is not bound to obedience to Church law, so they are less likely to be culpable for their actions. However, they are still in an irregular marriage, and that situation must be resolved before they can come into full communion with the Church.
If this is the true, then should not all grave sin be issues?
All grave sins are indeed issues. A murderer who has not repented will not be admitted to the Church. That's why those baptized Christians who wish to join the Church must receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation before they can make their profession of faith and receive the remaining sacraments.
Can they not be Catholics who are in excommunication?
What's the point? A baptized Christian is, in effect, a Catholic (i.e., member of the people of God, the "universal" Church) who is not in full communion with the Church, and that's what "excommunication" means.
BTW, a Catholic who is divorced and remarried is no longer considered excommunicated, but since they have willingly violated the laws of the Church, they may not receive the sacraments. The effect is the same. And anyone, even a Protestant with no intention of joining the Church, may seek a Declaration of Nullity from the diocesan Tribunal, so there is no need for anyone who is a baptized Christian to be in a marriage not recognized by the Church (unless, of course, the Tribunal denies the Declaration).
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Ken Follis
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Posted: Wed Oct 31st, 2007 12:14 am |
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Rick,
Your answer is excellent. It will help many as they journey in. From the response, you indicate that Protestants must go through the Rite of Welcome and the complete RCIA in order to be received. I have been told that RCIA is only for the unbaptized and that as a baptized Christian all that is necessary is a Profession of Faith to a priest. Is this not canonical?
I went through a class for Inquirers at Our Lady of Atonement, an Anglican use parish. They do not have an RCIA program. After completing the class, I then made my Profession of Faith in the Military Archdiocese and was given the Eucharist. A year later, I went through a Confirmation Class and was confirmed by the visiting bishop in Germany. Do you think my case was likely an exception due to military service obligations?
When the RCIA was reinstated after Vatican II, was it intended for pagan and Protestant converts alike?
Also, will you confirm that one must make the Sacrament of Reconciliation before he can make his Profession of Faith?
(This is the last of my questions. Thanks in advance.)
____________________
Jer. 6:16 "Stand, Look, Ask and Walk!"
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Oct 31st, 2007 01:31 am |
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Ken Follis wrote: Your answer is excellent. It will help many as they journey in. From the response, you indicate that Protestants must go through the Rite of Welcome and the complete RCIA in order to be received.
No, I never mentioned RCIA. Generally, those already baptized go through a parallel process and often participate in the same formation program, but that is more for convenience than necessity. The Church envisions RCIA as a program for the unbaptized, and expects the previously baptized to face an individually designed program leading to a profession of faith and the reception of the other sacraments of initiation not previously received (usually Confirmation and Eucharist). The Rite of Acceptance celebrated on the First Sunday of Advent is for catechumens (the unbaptized), but those who are previously baptized may participate in a similar Rite of Welcome which may take place at any time. The Rite of Welcome is optional and is normally not used (or is done informally) if it not done in conjunction with RCIA.
So you are right, RCIA is for the unbaptized only. Even when candidates for full communion participate in a parallel program, they are to be distinguised from catechumens at all times until after the catechumens are baptized. For example, they may receive the sacraments of Confirmation and Eucharist together. Otherwise they are separated in all of the Rites.
A priest normally does not have the faculties (i.e., authority) to administer the Sacrament of Confirmation except at the Easter Vigil, which is the reason Candidates for Full Communion are normally admitted on Holy Saturday. If they are admitted at any other time, the priest must obtain special permission to confirm, or the administration of the Sacrament of Confirmation must wait until a bishop can confer it. So as a previously baptized Christian, the process you underwent is indeed the way it is supposed to happen. A person is not considered a fully initiated Catholic until he has received the sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, and Eucharist.
(As a point of order, the Eastern Churches administer all three sacraments at the same time, even for infants. In the Eastern Churches, the priest is the normal minister of the Mystery of Chrismation, so a previously baptized Christian admitted to one of the Eastern Rites is accepted, chrismated, and receives Eucharist at the same mass regardless of when it takes place.)
As for the Sacrament of Reconciliation, a person who has not obtained absolution for any unforgiven mortal sins may not validly receive the Eucharist or any other sacraments of service or initiation. So unless the candidate has never sinned, the Sacrament of Reconciliation would be required. It does not invalidate the reception into the Church, but it prevents the new Catholic from receiving the graces of the sacraments received. Of course, this is not the case for catechumens because Baptism forgives their sins.
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Ken Follis
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Posted: Wed Oct 31st, 2007 01:38 am |
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| Wonderful and succinct, Rick! You have a great gift. This will help me in evangelism. Thanks!
____________________
Jer. 6:16 "Stand, Look, Ask and Walk!"
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Ken Follis
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Posted: Thu Nov 1st, 2007 11:11 am |
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Rick,
You wrote, "The only real benefit to 'membership' without the sacraments is that a non-Catholic then becomes eligible to have a funeral mass."
The real benefit, I see, is that when a Protestant makes the Profession of Faith, he or she is no longer Protestant. They are then Christians who unequivocally state that the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church is the Roman Catholic Church. There their journey has ended and a whole new one begins. Personal opinion is now subject to the Magisterium and they are saying that their local bishop is their bishop, a point the bishop already understood. They will then submit to his representative, the priest, who is now their father. They have come home and a whole new journey begins.
We are certainly talking about a funeral, then and there, to 'self'. They are putting the nail on the coffin, so to speak. They are actualizing the 'burial in Baptism' they received as Protestants when they say they will follow the Precepts of the Church, obey her disciplines and canon, and believe her dogmas and creeds. They are taking up their Cross, as Christ commanded, and realizing 'it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives within me', as St. Paul said.
They can participate in Mass, even if they cannot partake, as a penitent member but a member nonetheless.
May the Lamb that was slain receive the reward of His suffering!
(Please let me know if I have overlooked something here)
Last edited on Thu Nov 1st, 2007 06:17 pm by Ken Follis
____________________
Jer. 6:16 "Stand, Look, Ask and Walk!"
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Nov 1st, 2007 02:25 pm |
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Ken Follis wrote: The real benefit, I see, of the Rite of Welcome is that a Protestant, at this very point or when he or she makes the Profession of Faith, is no longer Protestant.
The Profession of Faith takes place at the end of the journey. The Rite of Welcome takes place at the beginning. It announces an intention to join the Church, not a completed fact. It is called the "Rite of Welcome" because it is a ritual through which the Church formally accepts them as pilgrims on the journey. Of course, any priest may do that simply by giving them instruction. The formality before the congregation is not necessary.
The Profession of faith states: "I accept and believe all that the Catholic Church teaches and believes." The Catholic Church teaches the necessity of following Christ's admonition that a person may be married only once. For a person in an irregular marriage who is unwilling to live celibately or to end the marriage, the Profession of Faith is a lie. The Church cannot knowingly allow someone to make a Profession of Faith based on a lie.
This discussion is really inappropriate for this thread. Should you wish to follow it any further (and I am really not trying to discourage you from doing so), please post any follow-ups in a more appropriate forum, or at least as a new topic so we can move it to where it belongs. This is not related at all to TAC seeking reunification with Rome except in an ancilliary basis.
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Pani Rose
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Posted: Thu Nov 1st, 2007 08:37 pm |
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Ken Follis wrote: Wonderful and succinct, Rick! You have a great gift. This will help me in evangelism. Thanks! YES!!! I am learning so much from Rick's posts. Thanks Rick!
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