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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Nov 14th, 2007 08:48 pm |
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INDIANAPOLIS, Indiana, NOV. 14, 2007 (Zenit.org).- The film "The Golden Compass" isn't simply about using fairy-tale magic to tell a good story, it corrupts the imagery of Lewis and Tolkien to undermine children's faith in God and the Church, says Catholic author Pete Vere.
In this interview with ZENIT, Vere and Sandra Miesel discuss the movie adaptation of the fantasy novels written by Philip Pullman. The film, staring Nicole Kidman and Daniel Craig, will be released in the United States in early December.
Vere and Miesel are co-authors of the booklet "Pied Piper of Atheism: Philip Pullman and Children's Fantasy," to be published by Ignatius Press next month on the topic of "The Golden Compass."
Q: The first movie of "The Golden Compass" trilogy is being released at Christmas. For those unfamiliar with the series, what kind of books are these and to whom do they appeal?
Vere: To begin, the books are marketed for 9-12 year olds as children's fantasy literature in the tradition of J.R.R. Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, and J.K. Rowling. "If you're a fan of 'Lord of the Rings,' 'Narnia ' or 'Harry Potter,'" the critics tell us, "you'll love Pullman."
Personally, I just can't see a child picking up these books and reading them. I see them more as books that adults give kids to read.
Having said that, "The Golden Compass" (1995) is the first book in Pullman's trilogy. The second book is titled "The Subtle Knife" (1997) and it is followed by "The Amber Spyglass" (2000).
Collectively, the trilogy is known as "His Dark Materials," a phrase taken from John Milton's "Paradise Lost." This is appropriately titled in my opinion, since each book gets progressively darker -- both in the intensity with which Pullman attacks the Catholic Church and the Judeo-Christian concept of God, as well as the stridency with which he promotes atheism.
For example, one of the main supporting characters, Dr. Mary Malone, is a former Catholic nun who abandoned her vocation to pursue sex and science. The reader does not meet her until the second book, by which time the young reader is already engrossed in the story. By the third book, Dr. Malone is engaging in occult practices to lead the two main characters, a 12-year-old boy and girl, to sleep in the same bed and engage in -- at the very least -- heavy kissing. This is the act through which they renew the multiple universes created by Pullman.
Another example is Pullman's portrayal of the Judeo-Christian God. Pullman refers to him as "The Authority," although a number of passages make clear that this is the God of the Bible. The Authority is a liar and a mere angel, and as we discover in the third book, senile as well. He was locked in some sort of jewel and held prisoner by the patriarch Enoch, who is now called Metatron and who rules in the Authority's name. When the children find the jewel and accidentally release the Authority, he falls apart and dies.
Additionally, Pullman uses the imagery of C.S. Lewis' "Narnia" chronicles. "His Dark Materials" opens with the young heroine stuck in a wardrobe belonging to an old academic, conversing with a talking animal, when she discovers multiple worlds. So the young reader is lulled early on with the familiar feel of Lewis.
Nevertheless, Pullman's work isn't simply about using fairy-tale magic to tell a good story. He openly proselytizes for atheism, corrupting the imagery of Lewis and Tolkien to undermine children's faith in God and the Church.
Q: Many Catholics, including William Donohue of the Catholic League, are speaking out against the movie. What should parents know before they let their children watch this film?
Vere: I don't recommend any parent allow their children to view the film. While the movie has reportedly been sanitized of its more anti-Christian and anti-religious elements, it will do nothing but pique children's curiosity about the books. I'm a parent myself. My children would think it hypocritical if I told them it was OK to see the movie, but not to read the books. And they would be right.
It's not OK for children -- impressionable as they are -- to read stories in which the plot revolves around the supreme blasphemy, namely, that God is a liar and a mortal. It is not appropriate for children to read books in which the heroine is the product of adultery and murder; priests act as professional hit men, torturers and authorize occult experimentation on young children; an ex-nun engages in occult practices and promiscuous behavior, and speaks of it openly with a 12-year-old couple; and the angels who rebel against God are good, while those who fight on God's side are evil. This is wrong. And while it's been softened in the movie -- or at least that's what Hollywood is telling us -- it's still there in the books.
Miesel: Furthermore, there's a great deal of cruelty and gore in the books, not just battles but deliberate murder, sadism, mutilation, suicide, euthanasia and even cannibalism. There are also passages of disturbing sensuality and homosexual angels who are "platonic lovers."
I agree with Pete. Avoid both the movie and the books. It would be best if people didn't picket or make a public fuss because that's just free publicity. If the movie fails at the box office, the second and third books won't be filmed.
Q: The author, Philip Pullman, is an outspoken atheist. Does this come across in the books and the movie as a secularist position or more in the form of anti-Catholicism?
Vere: It's not an "either/or" situation. What begins as a rebellion against the Church turns into a rebellion against God. This then leads to the discovery that God -- and Christianity -- are a fraud.
The 12-year-old protagonists -- Lyra and Bill -- discover there is no immortal soul, no heaven or hell. All that awaits us in the afterlife is some gloomy Hades-type afterlife where the soul goes to wait until it completely dissolves. Thus Pullman uses anti-Catholicism as the gateway to promoting atheism.
Q: The trilogy is being compared to "Harry Potter" and "The Lord of the Rings." Is there a comparison to be made with either?
Vere: On the surface, yes. You've got wizards, heroines, strange creatures, alternate worlds, etc. Although for reasons already stated, the real comparison -- by way of inverted imagery -- is to C.S. Lewis' "Narnia" chronicles. Pullman, who has called "The Lord of the Rings" "infantile," has a particular dislike for Lewis and "Narnia." This is reflected in Pullman taking Lewis' literary devices and inverting them to attack Christianity and promote atheism.
As Pullman said in a 1998 article in The Guardian: "[Lewis] didn't like women in general, or sexuality at all, at least at the stage in his life when he wrote the 'Narnia' books. He was frightened and appalled at the notion of wanting to grow up. Susan, who did want to grow up, and who might have been the most interesting character in the whole cycle if she'd been allowed to, is a Cinderella in a story where the ugly sisters win."
Miesel: That nasty quote is factually wrong on both points. Lewis began corresponding with his future wife in 1950, the year the first "Narnia" book came out, and married her in 1956, the year the last one was published. Susan's problem isn't "growing up," but turning silly and conceited. She doesn't even appear -- much less get sent to hell -- in "The Last Battle."
Vere: Thus what we see here is more contrast and corruption than comparison. Also, the work of Tolkien, Lewis and Rowling is primarily driven by the audience. It is the average reader who purchases these works, reads them, and makes them popular.
Pullman's work, on the other hand, appears to be driven by the critics. The only people I know recommending Pullman's work are English majors and university professors. I don't know a single electrician, hairdresser or accountant who recommends Pullman's work by word of mouth. Thus the books haven't resonated with the average person to the same degree as "Lord of the Rings," "Narnia" and "Harry Potter."
Q: Nicole Kidman, a Catholic who stars in the film, has said she wouldn't have taken the role if she thought the movie was anti-Catholic. What do you make of this response?
Vere: The film has not yet been released, so I cannot comment on it. However, Christ asks very pointedly in the Gospels: Can a good tree bear rotten fruit? The movie is the fruit of the books and Pullman's imagination. These are anti-Christian and atheistic at their core. How does one sanitize this from the movie without completely gutting Pullman from his story?
During an interview with Hollywood screenwriter Barbara Nicolosi a couple of months ago, I asked her whether it was possible to tone down the anti-Christian elements for the movie. Nicolosi is the chair of Act One, a training and mentoring organization for Christians starting out in Hollywood.
She had given the question thought. A few years ago one of her friends -- an evangelical Christian -- had been asked by her agent to pitch on the project, that is, propose to write the screenplay adapting "The Golden Compass" to film.
"We read [the book] and there was just no way we could come in on this," Nicolosi told me. "Pullman's fantasy universe is nihilistic and rooted in chaos. You cannot fix that in a rewrite without changing the story Pullman is trying to tell -- which is atheistic, angry and at times polemical."
But let's suppose it is possible. Let's suppose Kidman is right and that the movie has been sanitized of its anti-Catholicism. The books remain saturated with bitter anti-Christian polemic. So why promote a movie that will only generate interest in the books among impressionable young children?
For the Christian parent, the movie cannot be anything but spiritual poison to their children -- for the movie is the fruit of the book.
© Innovative Media, Inc.
The above article is reposted with permission from Zenit.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Thu Nov 15th, 2007 07:58 pm |
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Excellent, Rick; thanks. I made a comment partially to get this to the top of the "Recent" entires, so no one will miss it!
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Nov 20th, 2007 09:41 pm |
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I saw a commercial on TV for the movie tonight. It included the following line:
"The war is coming, and nothing will stop the Magisterium from trying to take over."
I think this on eline proves beyond a shadow of a doubt exactly the intention of the author. If this line is also in the book (and I'd be willing to bet it is), I think it also proves that the book is not harmless fiction.
"Danger, Will Robinson!"
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Wed Nov 21st, 2007 01:43 pm |
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Militant atheists are too boorish to hide their intentions for very long. We can be sure it is explicit at some point.
In contrast, great Christian fantasy literature (Tolkien, Lewis et al) need not mention God or Christian dogma at all, yet still remain soaked in a Christian worldview: sort of like how creation bespeaks the glory of God or St. Francis' line about preaching the gospel, using words if necessary.
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Shadow
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Posted: Sat Jan 5th, 2008 02:38 am |
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No offence is meant by this post but maby I can shed some light on this matter for those of you in the dark.
This movie is a work of "Fiction" as are the books, meaning that they are not real. People seldom remember that these things are meant for entertainment purposes only, not to start religious debates, more specifically, they dont ask for Christianities oppinion or approval in order to be made. Hollywood is in buisness for one thing, Money, no amount of protesting, be it in person or on the internet, will change that fact.
The book series has sold millions of copies world wide meaning that more people enjoy it then you might think, and concidering that the majority of humanity seems to be part of Catholocism I'm willing to bet most of those copies went to christian households.
Reading this article and replies reminded me of when the "New Testiment" was first published years ago, it was concidered blasphamy becouse some of the passages were changed (apparently to reflect closer to the origional writings which were distroyed or lost several hundered years ago so I dont see how it could). But for about a year people were protesting openely about how the Bible could never be changed becouse it was holy scrit. But now I'm willing to bet every single christian (including the ones that protested it) has a copy of the New Testiment.
This post in a way is the same as the movie and book series under fire here, neither the author nor myself are christian. But (big but) neither one are forcing a different religion upon you, they are supplying ideas and oppinions of the authors who wrote them. In the society we live in today we are too quick to judge something, or someone for what it may, or may not be. Only with open eyes, open hearts and open ears will we start learning to get along with our fellow humans.
Untill that day comes continue to critisize everyone you see fit.
"Dont judge lest ye be judged." Isn't that somewhere in the Bible?
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No matter the faith and teachings of yesterday, the God and Goddess love and bless all with their warmth of day and lustrious glow of night. Blessed Be.
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Sat Jan 5th, 2008 03:37 am |
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| Enlighten me Shadow, please, because I am still in the dark. Why does a work of fiction use a real hierarchical entity of the Catholic church as a major component of this fiction? If it is truly fiction and the plot and writing style are strong enough to stand on their own legs, why not a fictional agency of authority to destroy? I can think of two reasons: one, the writing is not that good and the author can drum up a lot of sales through controversy; two, he is an avowed in-your-face atheist who has an agenda to fulfill in writing and publishing these books. You are right about Hollywood being interested only in the profit they can make, and I am sure they are fueling the controversy any way they can. And this is not the first or the last movie to raise the ire of Christians everywhere. But do not think that we will slink quietly away in the name of goodwill and tolerance. We will call a thing what it is, and this movie is an attempt to undermind the efforts of parents everywhere to give their children religious formation. I have seen the "Golden Compass" toys on display at Toys R Us. I have seen the book trilogy at Books a Million. It is my understanding that the third book depicts God being "killed?" You say we should have open eyes, open hearts, and open ears so we can learn to get along with our fellow humans. I don't open my house to thieves. When I open my eyes I choose what will be good for me to see, I open my heart to goodness not evil, and I open my ears to hear what is beneficial, true, and enlightening.
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Shadow
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Posted: Sat Jan 5th, 2008 05:36 am |
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thats a good question, why not pick a fictional agency of authority to distroy. does the book give any specific referance to the christian god or the blood of christ in any way shape or form? or does the christian god infact inhabit a crystal on the plains of mortality. Just becouse the author is Atheist it doesnt mean he is targeting christians. Contrary to christian beliefs there are thousands of dieties that are being worshiped at this very moment. This is yet another prime example for me to remind people that the catholic church was responsible for the murder of thousands upon thousands of innocent people all becouse they had a different idea of what god was, killed becouse of an oppinion. Are Christians now planning on slaughtering Atheists becouse of a movie? Yes, but your doing it with words and protests. heres some words of my own,
Many thousands of Gods and Goddesses have been worshipped in the past, many of which came before the Christian God and Jesus. Many thousands of other deities are being worshiped in the present.
All Christians recognize the Trinity -- a single God composed of three persons (father, son and holy ghost or spirit)-- while denying the existence of the other thousands of deities
Since you do not believe in my deities (The God and Goddess), in my eyes your no better then an Atheist, BUT, I dont judge people (supprising isn't it). Oppinions in these instances matter to those who believe them to be true, I couldnt care less in what you believe in, or what you think of me since I'm not catholic, I dont care. Christianity could learn a lesson from my religion in being less judgemental twords people.
And besides there is no difinitive proof of your claims about the author, all your going off of is oppinions fed to you through the media and your church, read the books for yourself and form your own oppinion. rememer this one fact, people blog about things all the time, 99.9% of the time there is no accuracy or proof to back up the post, occasinaly they get it right, but most of the time it is a mear fabrication intended to strike up controversy and heated debate which this one has successfully done. If all of them were true then everybody would be a paid news journalist.
If someone wrote a new blog on this site about the state you live in vanishing off the map would you believe it? Or would it be a fabrication in order to start a debate? The author of The Golden Compass should be thankfull for this site, it's promoting the movie in ways that the movie studio never could.
____________________
No matter the faith and teachings of yesterday, the God and Goddess love and bless all with their warmth of day and lustrious glow of night. Blessed Be.
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Sat Jan 5th, 2008 11:53 am |
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| Would you answer my question please? Why is it necessary for a supposed work of fiction to use a hierarchical entity of the Catholic church as a major, evil component of the work? Why not be truly creative and invent a hierarchical entity?
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heardclarke
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Posted: Sat Jan 5th, 2008 05:12 pm |
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Hello friends,
I have been following the debate around the "Golden Compass" movie with interest. I teach 2nd grade and discovered the trilogy being offered by Scholastic Books in the Holiday book order (for 2nd-6th grade children).
We discussed the book order at work, and it was observed that surely parents have every right to buy whatever they wish for their children. I agree, but I have a responsibility as their teacher to recommend only material that will (a) help the children learn to read better and (b) teach them about goodness and truth. It follows that I have the right to send home only those extra materials that I see fit. I simply decided not to present that book order to my class.
There are lots of things offered for children to buy and read that I personally would not buy for my kids, because they aren't worth the money. It's not my problem if other parents want to buy them. This is different. Sure, the books are "Fiction" and "a lot like Harry Potter." That's not the point. There are so many other great books to read (the J.K. Rowling books are some of them). "Shadow" is free to buy and recommend any book or movie to friends and acquaintances; I trust that I and my fellow Christians are equally free to make our own choices. We call it "voting with our wallets."
Lisa
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Shadow
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Posted: Sat Jan 5th, 2008 07:16 pm |
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Hello again Marsha, I had answered that question for you in my last post, andI have entered it again below.
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"thats a good question, why not pick a fictional agency of authority to distroy. does the book give any specific referance to the christian god or the blood of christ in any way shape or form? or does the christian god infact inhabit a crystal on the plains of mortality. Just becouse the author is Atheist, it doesnt mean he is targeting the christian god"
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In the third book it gives reference to the "God" depicted, living in a small crystal. Last time I checked, according to christian beliefs you do not believe that possible. Most Wicca on the other hand believe that our God and Goddess can inhabit inanimate objects such as crystals and stones. Taking into concideration these two differences it seems more likely that he is targeting MY deities, not yours.
(continued in a replay to Lisa's post)
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No matter the faith and teachings of yesterday, the God and Goddess love and bless all with their warmth of day and lustrious glow of night. Blessed Be.
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Shadow
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Posted: Sat Jan 5th, 2008 07:33 pm |
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Lisa,
I couldnt agree more with what you said, I just wish that more people understood that like you do.
It isn't mearly the fact that some material in these books is inappropriate for childeren, it's the fact that parents have the choice of weither or not to buy them for their childeren.
But back into the subject of the books and movie. at the beginning of the movie and the prologue for the first book it states rather clearely that the "story" takes place in an alternate reality. if people take it for what it is and not what some are trying to say it is, then more accurate oppinions can be made reguarding both medias.
I have read all 3 books (I read them at the age of 10) and not once did it hinder my (at the time) christian beliefs, if it had then I wouldnt have gone on to my "first communion" and Conformation, mostly becouse I took it as a wonderfull fictional story that let me imagion a fantasy world where animals could talk. it all boils down to what your oppinion is and what you want to believe. it is your choice.
____________________
No matter the faith and teachings of yesterday, the God and Goddess love and bless all with their warmth of day and lustrious glow of night. Blessed Be.
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Sat Jan 5th, 2008 07:55 pm |
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| Thanks for your reply Shadow. I will ask again in a different way: why, in your opinion, does the writer feel a need to use the catholic church so explicity? I am speaking of the Magisterium, and the character of the "former nun." Does the use of these give more importance to the aim of the story? I am not speaking of Christianity as a whole, or the blood of Christ. I am asking why the Catholic church is exploited this way?
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heardclarke
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Posted: Sun Jan 6th, 2008 09:16 am |
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Dear Marsha,
To return to your question, I believe that Pullman is from England, correct? I suspect that this may have something to do with his decision to use Catholic vocabulary the way he does in his books. Anti-Catholicism is very prevalent there, and it is linked with social prejudice against the "lower classes". To merge imagery from the Catholic Church with that of a totalitarian society would not offend many of the people who would be likely to read the books. (For the PM to become Catholic, as Blair has, would have been unheard of just a few years ago.)
It is almost disappointing to have someone launch such an obviously hostile campaign against the Catholic church, and then try to deny it after the material is picked up by Hollywood, isn't it?
Here it is different, since a movie for kids is likely to be viewed by all sorts of people and one must keep it "toned down" in order to be successful financially. If the film took on a life of its own, such as the Harry Potter series has, then one could be more obvious in the later installments.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Lisa
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Sun Jan 6th, 2008 01:35 pm |
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Thanks Lisa, that is a perspective I hadn't thought of, regarding Pullman being from Great Britain. I guess their culture is even more secular than ours, from the media I see.
I know that writers have used every religion at one time or another in their work and have raised the hackles of the faithful of each faith system by doing so. Remember Salmon Rushdie and his death threats which are still ongoing. The cartoons regarding Mohammad. Of course the Da Vinci Code. It's not that I'm for censorship, although I do think freedom of speech should not be license to abuse. It's that I love the Catholic church, and I'm up to here with the pot shots taken against it. It's a large, vulnerable target. By it's nature it's the most visually recognized religion on earth now and through history. In Christianity, it is the gold standard, IMO. When an author wants to take aim at spirituality, or Christianity in particular, the imagery of the RCC, with the icons, candles, rosaries, clerical vestments, holy water, etc. makes for more drama than anything else. It is endlessly exploited by authors and moviemakers who see the visual impact and don't give a rat's @*%!* about how offended we are. And now, this movie is touted as, what was it, an "alternate reality"? Only, we'll drag in the Catholic church, out of reality and into this "alternate reality." Because the author has an agenda other than entertaining children. I believe it's evil, I really do. Will the Catholic church prevail? Yes, of course. Do we have to accept constant sniper shots and outright libel? No.
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Shadow
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Posted: Sun Jan 6th, 2008 02:45 pm |
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"And they looked up onto the stars lit clearly in the night sky to receive praise and power from their understanding of the universe and admitted entrance unto the 7 sisters of the night sky"
In other words I am glad that I have not yet gotten kicked out of the group here. It makes my heart rejoice that you have formed your own opinions on the subject matter. Now I feel an explanation of the quote I used is in order. It is in fact a Wiccan quote but through understanding you will find that it is not far from your own beliefs.
"And they looked up onto the stars lit clearly in the night sky to receive praise and power from their understanding of the universe"
This is no more then prayer.
"Admitted entrance unto the 7 sisters of the night sky"
And this, in essence is our heaven.
In other words they are praying for their place among heaven.
All in all, religion it's self is based upon one principle, worship. Once the petty differences, how minute they may be, are cast aside we are essentially all the same. Was it not god himself that created man and gave him free will to do as he pleased with the bountiful gifts bestowed upon him. The rituals may be different and the practices varied, but it is the worship that remains the same.
____________________
No matter the faith and teachings of yesterday, the God and Goddess love and bless all with their warmth of day and lustrious glow of night. Blessed Be.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Jan 6th, 2008 03:23 pm |
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Shadow wrote: In other words I am glad that I have not yet gotten kicked out of the group here.
As I have counseled you privately, you are not permitted to promote any agenda contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church. This is clearly specified in our forum guidelines. As long as you follow the guidelines you are welcomed here.
The Catholic Church teaches that there is one God in three Divine Persons (Father, Son, and Spirit). Other "deities" are works of mythology.
Again, as I counseled you privately in consultation with the other moderators, if you are here to learn more about the Catholic faith for whatever reason, you are welcomed here. If you are here to promote an alternate agenda of any type, contrary to the guidelines of our forum, you are not.
There are many forums on the Internet which allow open debate of Catholic teaching. This is not one of them. We are quite willing and capable of defending Catholic teaching when it is required, but we will not entertain alternate agendas. That is not our purpose for existence.
I strongly suggest that you read the Forum Guidelines very carefully. It is not permitted here to promote beliefs of any other faith besides Catholic, and the standard is no different for you than it would be for a Baptist, a Buddhist, or a Ba'hai.
You will find the Forum Guidelines here. Your continued use of the forum indicates that you have read the guidelines in their entirety and agree to follow them, as you indicated when you registered for posting membership.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Shadow
User on Probation
| Joined: | Fri Jan 4th, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Shadow | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Ex-Christian, newly born Wiccan "Blessed Be" |
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Posted: Sun Jan 6th, 2008 04:15 pm |
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Was it not god himself that created man and gave him free will to do as he pleased with the bountiful gifts bestowed upon him?
If you understood my last post as it was intended I was merely being greatfull that they formed their own oppinion on the subject at hand. I am not, will not, and will never promote an "alternate adjenda" as you put it. More then likely you disliked my quote or the fact that even though it uses different words, means the same things you believe and you are unale to comprehend this.
I can guarantee that if a Buddhist came here and mentiond Budah once or twice and spoke of the differences between the two you would have nothing to say other then "please stay within topic".
And as for "defending" what are you defending from, I'm not attacking. unless you concider an oppinion of a movie an open attack
I am well aware of the teachings of the catholic church as I grew up a Roman Catholic if you read my reply to your "counseling" you would have known this. Therefore I assume you didnt so I'm posting it in it's entirety below, take it as you will, delete my posts, keep disliking Wiccans with closed hearts, but open your mind to the posibility that you dont have the only beliefs out there, it's a crazy thought I know, but maby an oppinion of your own will be formed, not just the oppinion of the masses forced upon you since birth.
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I appologise for coming across that way, I really do. I was merely trying to give a different viewpoint on the subject in question.
I was just merely trying to get my point across that in the book series there has never been any direct attack or description against the christian faith, but the author is an athiest so it is automatically deduced that it is. As a work of fiction, complete and entirely, there is no direct reference to any religion. As I put in my last post in that forum there is more references to my religion then yours.
I have no intention of advertising or promoting this movie in any way nor do I work in conjunction with any entity that is. but one thing that is certain (and I said it in one of my posts) any negative publicity is publicity in and of it's self. by scrutinizing anything openely, especially in a public viewable message board, people will get people interested in it. I'm mearly trying to point out that people should form their own oppinion.
you stated
"You have mentioned "thousands of dieties" if I remember the words correctly, and that is a direct contradiction to Catholic teaching. You did not pose it in the form of a question so you are not seeking information, but promoting an agenda that does not fit within our forum guidelines."
it is a well known fact that there are other dieties that have been worshiped (many of which came before Christ by the way)and it is tought in public schools , along with catholic schools. i was attending St. James catholic school in centeral Florida when i learned about the greek and roman gods, everyone knows this. It isnt an agenda of my own, it is an agenda of world history that is being tought all across the country. in essence they are all the same just different names. The christian faith has many names for god, does that make each one a different diety? every one of them is a supream being capable of doing either wonderous or horrific things (revolations and the 7 seals) I need not ask about something that I allready know.
But as you have demonstrated by sending me this message my theory is correct. Just becouse I don't worship your god and have your beliefs, even though I'm just as spiritule and religious as you, I'm under fire, it is a fear of our differences (deny it if you want but you know I'm correct). the crusades were started becouse of the very same thing, along with the majority of the wars across the plannet over the duration of the worlds history. Millions of people across the plannet have been killed becouse they didnt share your beliefs, the american indians for example were all killed in the name of god simply becouse they wanted to keep the beliefs that they had for hundereds of years, countless civilizations have been distroyed becouse of this.
Wiccans on the other hand have not started any wars, discriminated against anyone, nor have we ever forced anyone to believe what we believe. We are an ancient religion able to trace our roots back just about 1,000 years before Christ, we are the ones that built Stone Henge. We live in harmony with other people and animals alike, not distroy them. We celebrate many things. One of them is no different then your Christmas, but there is one problem with Christmas though. The Romans held their census's in the spring time, not winter, so christ could not have been born in december by historical fact! The Wiccan celebration of Yule on December 22nd had already been celebrated with gift giving and trimming trees for hundereds of years, and Santa was also part of this tradition. october 31st, otherwise known as halloween, is also the Wiccan fall equanox, the christian church manipulated this celebration in order to instill fear in the general population becouse it was something that they did not understand, they didnt want to understand, it was different. Easter, lol, you'll love this one, the easter bunny and eggs were not part of the origional celebration, they were symbols of new beginnings used in the Wiccan Spring equanox celbration.
These things are not oppinions, they, are, fact! I could go further but if you continued reading this far i would be generally supprised.
And for your referance the reason why i put that part in my description is the fact that christians have been hating my kind since the beginning saying that they were evil, thats so far from the truth I dont know where to start but I'll spare you from that. I'll end with one thing.
I'm guessing your a priest or minister maby? you would probably faint if you knew haw many wiccans were in your congragation. we are there I assure you. wicca is the fastest growing religion in the USA, and the dictatorship known as christianity is whats supplying the new members.
With that I take my leave from your forums, you will no longer see me in your forums but rest assured I will still be spreading seeds of truth. If you wish to continue this you have my e-mail. and if you dont here it is. I love educating people.
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No matter the faith and teachings of yesterday, the God and Goddess love and bless all with their warmth of day and lustrious glow of night. Blessed Be.
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mg57
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| First Name: | mg57 | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Infant Baptised Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Jan 6th, 2008 04:55 pm |
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As a reference, here is a very brief article by Mortimer Adler about what one means and things to consider when discussing "God".
http://radicalacademy.com/adlerbriefing7.htm
"Almost everyone uses the word "God," but almost nobody can say what they mean by the word, especially if they are pagans or persons without religious beliefs. If they are members of the three religious communities of the West -- Judaism, Christianity, and Islam -- they have been taught how the word is used in the dogmatic or scared theology of their religion.
However, let us suppose that they are pagans -- persons who have no religious beliefs of any kind, and let us suppose that this entry is being written by a pagan for pagans.
As an exercise in philosophical theology, how shall we give meaning to the word "God"? For one thing, we know at once that the word "God" is a proper noun and that, as with any other proper noun, we must try to substitute a definite description for it.
As with the proper noun "George Washington," we cannot be introduced to the individual named and so we cannot learn how to use it by acquaintance. Instead we must substitute a definite description, such as "the first President of the United States."
Another preliminary point is that we can have no empirical concept of God. We have no experience of God, as we do have of cats, dogs, whales, and horses, from which we can abstract a concept of those kinds. Of inexperienceable entities, we must form theoretical constructs. It is of the theoretical construct "God" that we must now form a definite description.
We are helped in doing this by St. Anselm. He asked himself: When I use the word "God,": how do I give that word meaning? His answer was. Must I not say to myself that when I think about God, I am thinking to that than which I can think of nothing greater?
In short, the first step is to describe God as "the" supreme being. Not "a" supreme being, because there cannot be two supreme beings. Must I not also think of God as existing in reality, as well as existing as an object before my mind? Hence, God must be described as a really existing supreme being.
Now any being that exist in reality either is one that came into being and passed away, or is one that necessarily exists -- one that cannot "not" exist. If I am thinking God as the supreme being, I must choose the latter -- a being that cannot "not" exist.
To go further than this choice in my definite description of God, I must ask what the necessary, real existence of God is like. Three answers are possible: (1) totally unlike the existence of anything else we know as existing: (2) essentially like the existence of all the other things we know to exist: and (3) both like and unlike the existence of everything else the existence of which we know.
These three alternatives are exhaustive and if the first two must be rejected, we are left with third. The first must be rejected, because then the word "existence" can have no meaning for us: and the second alternative must be rejected because then God's existence would be physical, mutable, material, and we would be unable to answer the question: Why do we not know God's existence in the same way that we know the existence of everything else?
To say we know that God's real existence is both like and unlike the existence of everything else the existence of which we know is to say that when we apply the word "exists" to the things of the physical world and to God, we are using the word "exists" analogically.
This usage requires us to say that, in formulating a definite description of God, we must first use negative words, such as "immaterial," immutable," "imperceptible,": "inconceivable," and "unimaginable." "Infinite" is another negative word we must use, and give that word meaning by saying that God is not a particular individual, not a member of any class.
But to say that God really exists and that we human beings also exist is to say something positive about God. Since anything said of God and creatures is said analogically, not univocally or equivocally, we must always add that we do not exist as God exists, nor does God exist as we exist.
Three more negative words enter into the definite description of God. They are "independent," "unconditional," and "uncaused." God has real existence from himself alone. His very being is to exist. Whereas the existence of all dependent, caused, and conditioned physical things is "ab alio" (from another), God's existence is "a se" (from himself). The unusual word "aseity" applies to God alone.
Finally, we can ask about God's being alive, knowing, and willing. If these three positive attribute cannot be added to the definite description of God, then God is not the supreme being, for there could be a greater being than one who is not living, knowing and willing. But when we say that God lives, knows, and wills, we must add at once what the analogical use of these words requires: the God does not live as we live, does not know as we know, and does not will as we will."
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Shadow
User on Probation
| Joined: | Fri Jan 4th, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Shadow | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Ex-Christian, newly born Wiccan "Blessed Be" |
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Posted: Sun Jan 6th, 2008 07:40 pm |
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PAGAN? you have your circuits crossed buddy, calling me pagan is the same thing as me calling you Satanic! An open attack from someone uneducated is one thing, but if your interests are early church history? how about actually learning church history. You attack my religion only to attack the wrong one, you dare associate me with devil worshiping pagans?
I was being nice and understanding up until this point, but the second that someone calls me a Pagan the **** hit the fan and all gloves are off. You throw your logic at me, let’s see if you can handle truth, and my opinion of what YOU are.
[The remainder of this message was removed for violation of forum guidelines.]
Last edited on Sun Jan 6th, 2008 08:18 pm by
____________________
No matter the faith and teachings of yesterday, the God and Goddess love and bless all with their warmth of day and lustrious glow of night. Blessed Be.
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Fahala
User on Probation
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| First Name: | Fahala | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Devout Catholic, praise be |
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Posted: Sun Jan 6th, 2008 09:40 pm |
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