 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
ASimpleSinner
Member
| Joined: | Sun Nov 4th, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 40 |
| First Name: | Simple | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Byzantine Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Jan 28th, 2008 08:37 pm |
|
Press Release
Assyrian Catholic Apostolic Diocese (ACAD)
On Thursday; January 17, 2008, the “Day of Thanksgiving” of the Rogation of the Ninevites, for which day the Gospel says, “On that day you will not question me about anything. Amen, amen, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in my name he will give you” (John 16:23), the Clergy Conference of the Assyrian Catholic Apostolic Diocese (ACAD) met in Dublin, California, to discuss the current situation and consider future plans for reestablishing communion with other Christians, in order to end their ecclesial isolation.
After praying to the Father and reflecting on the Scriptures and Tradition, the attendees unanimously adopted a “Declaration of Intention” in which they state their resolution “to enter full communion with the Catholic Church” and “to resume church unity with the Chaldean Catholic Church.” As a result, they foresee that this declaration will initiate a process of negotiation with respective Church authorities to define a concrete model of this union, in which the particularity of our apostolic tradition is preserved.
Present at this Clergy Conference were H.G. Bishop Mar Bawai Soro, four priests and sixteen deacons. Two more priests and fourteen other deacons of ACAD have also sent in advance their signed proxies in support of this Declaration. The gathered members ask all their brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for this noble intention so that each and every effort will contribute to the glory of God and the fulfillment of Christ’s prayer for His Holy Church “That they all may be one”. (John 17:21)
The blog of the bishop in question can be found here: http://www.marbawai.com/
Please keep them in your prayers.
Edited to fix formatting.
Last edited on Tue Jan 29th, 2008 12:31 am by
|
|
|
ASimpleSinner
Member
| Joined: | Sun Nov 4th, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 40 |
| First Name: | Simple | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Byzantine Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 08:55 pm |
|
This is kind of a big deal... yet googling "Mar Bawai Soro" you will find no articles about the petition for union until the second page of returns which, sadly, is a link to my entry at http://blog.ancient-future.net
How it is the case that this story, again, kind of a big deal, is soooooo off the radar in secular & Catholic media (even curiously so in parts of the blogosphere) is befuddling to me. All the more so considering the column inches each of the four individual convert bishops from TEC got last year... Even the Canadian Lutheran bishop got more mention...
Is it really because the sexy "sex issues" aren't at play here? Or is it just a demonstration of how most Westerners don't really know about this group to begin with, so all of the sudden hearing about it creates as much stir as, I dunno, let's say Lilliputians of Freedonia, doing the same?
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4984 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 09:33 pm |
|
These are individuals, so unless they are very prominent within their religious community (i.e., Tony Blair in Great Britain), it is not likely to cause a major stir. The total number of individuals involved are one bishop, six priests, and 30 deacons. It is certainly significant but not as big a deal as if their congregations had come with them, and that is not indicated in the story.
There has been much more attention to the Anglicans who have voted to disassociate themselves from the Episcopal church because they are taking the entire diocese with them.
And in some cases, it is better to let some things "fly under the radar" than to make it a major cause celebre.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
brian
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 720 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Feb 1st, 2008 03:00 am |
|
| While I am happy about what this is, some are concerned that it could set relations back with other related groups who we have been having positive dialogue up with up till now. It is a little beyond me still...I was curious about the Anglican thing Rick, because I know a large group petitioned for union with the Catholic Church, but it seemed that there were concerns as to if and when this would be a good idea and if we could receive them this way. It semed disapponitng that it couldn't just happen, but I think the church is wise to be cautious over these things, though we probably want s much union as is possible.
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4984 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Feb 1st, 2008 04:19 am |
|
One factor, Brian, is that we recognize the orders and sacraments of the Assyrian Church of the East but not of the Anglicans. An Assyrian priest who becomes Catholic is a Catholic priest; an Anglican priest who becomes Catholic is not a Catholic priest but must be ordained.
Admitting Assyrian deacons, priests, and even a bishop is easy. Admitting a large group of Anglicans is much more complicated.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
ASimpleSinner
Member
| Joined: | Sun Nov 4th, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 40 |
| First Name: | Simple | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Byzantine Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 2nd, 2008 02:21 am |
|
CajunRick wrote: These are individuals, so unless they are very prominent within their religious community (i.e., Tony Blair in Great Britain), it is not likely to cause a major stir. The total number of individuals involved are one bishop, six priests, and 30 deacons. It is certainly significant but not as big a deal as if their congregations had come with them, and that is not indicated in the story.
No, Rick, by all indications, the congregations have evinced interest in coming with them. It is not just individuals, it is the entire clergy and laity of a diocese that was put into canonical isolation in 2005 from the Patriarch in Chicago. (Yes, we do have a real live Eastern Patriarch who lives in the US.)
I don't expect it to make the front page of the New York Times... But a little mention in even the mainstream Cathoilic media outlets seems warranted.
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4984 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 2nd, 2008 02:43 am |
|
ASimpleSinner wrote: CajunRick wrote: These are individuals, so unless they are very prominent within their religious community (i.e., Tony Blair in Great Britain), it is not likely to cause a major stir.
No, Rick, by all indications, the congregations have evinced interest in coming with them. It is not just individuals, it is the entire clergy and laity of a diocese that was put into canonical isolation in 2005 from the Patriarch in Chicago. (Yes, we do have a real live Eastern Patriarch who lives in the US.)
I don't expect it to make the front page of the New York Times... But a little mention in even the mainstream Cathoilic media outlets seems warranted.
Given this information, which was not included in your first post, I would agree. (And yes, I was awareo of patriarchates in the United States.)
I did a search of the Catholic media and the only reference I found was this thread, although I did find other references to Mar Soro. Have you considered writing to the Catholic news agencies such as Zenit and the Catholic News Agency or the California Catholic Daily News? Chances are they are not aware of the pending reunification.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
ASimpleSinner
Member
| Joined: | Sun Nov 4th, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 40 |
| First Name: | Simple | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Byzantine Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 2nd, 2008 01:28 pm |
|
CajunRick wrote: Given this information, which was not included in your first post, I would agree. (And yes, I was awareo of patriarchates in the United States.)
I did a search of the Catholic media and the only reference I found was this thread, although I did find other references to Mar Soro. Have you considered writing to the Catholic news agencies such as Zenit and the Catholic News Agency or the California Catholic Daily News? Chances are they are not aware of the pending reunification.
When I do websearches, I keep coming back to the Mar Bawai site or the article I wrote about them on Per Christum.
I should write to the news agencies...
It begins to make you wonder, how many other really amazing news stories slip through the cracks? In a way it sort of makes me hopeful - it goes to show that NO news does not mean nothing amazing is going on.
Please pray for this group on their journey home.
|
|
|
Assyrian
Member
| Joined: | Tue Apr 1st, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 5 |
| First Name: | ACOE | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Apr 1st, 2008 10:10 am |
|
Excuse me, I am new here. I am so extremely offended by the remarks of this thread! Let me start by saying that, YES, the Patriarch of the Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East resides in Chicago instead of Iraq. But he did NOT isolate anyone from our great Church! Do you know the story of Ashur Soro? (Formerly "Mar Bawai"?)
Let me start by saying that "Assyrian Catholic Apostolic Diocese" is and never was a part of Assyrian Church of the East! In fact, Soro created that diocese just 4 months ago.
Ashur Soro was ordained a bishop over 20 years ago by the current Patriarch. On that day, he swore his allegiance to our Patriarch, calling him his new father and the Church his mother. However what he did was disgusting. He placed 3 church parishes into a new diocese he created, which named him as the sole director! THEN he refinanced those properties and took out MILLIONS of dollars and did God knows what with it! When our Patriarch questioned him on these things, he replied with a RESTRAINING ORDER against the Patriarch and told him that if he wants the churches back, to take him to court! So our dear Church spent millions of dollars in attorneys and legal fees! He held fundraisers for himself so that he could continue to hold our churces hostage! He continued to claim that he held the deed to those properties and they belonged to him! He was removed from his position, yet he couldn't see that what he was doing was stealing! Well, WE WON the lawsuit and he was forced to return all properties which rightfully belonged to the Church all along! However, the case for punitive damages is not yet settled and the IRS has launched an investiation of Soro's little numbers game.
Are these the actions of a Christian man? Can this man be trusted to adhere to the rules of authority? Especially after seeing how he treated his former Patriarch, and how he financially raped each member of our Church, I can only hope that the Vatican will refuse to accept this man. If Vatican accepts him, then it is the vatican who places itself into isolation from the rest of the civilized world who can clearly see that Soro was/is wrong.
Our beloved Patriarch never isolated anyone from our Church. It was Soro who placed chains and locks on our Church doors and refused entry to anyone who did not support him. So please don't be so quick to make reports that the world's population of Assyrians plan on joining the RCC because that couldn't be farther from the truth. And actually, you should know that there is a group of Assyrians who have a branch under the Vatican. The Chaldean Church. Their nationality is Assyrian. (But that's another disaster misunderstanding.) It is well documented that Assyrians were among the first Christians of the world, and to this day, still speak the beautiful Aramaic language that Jesus Christ spoke. You were right to ask why isn't this more publicized, and why aren't people talking more about this. You're right, people should be talking about this, and saying what a big mistake it would be for the Vatican to welcome this criminal into the RCC. Meanwhile, our Church doors are open and we are pure in heart. God is with us, and no man, no Soro can destroy us.
|
|
|
Assyrian
Member
| Joined: | Tue Apr 1st, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 5 |
| First Name: | ACOE | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Apr 1st, 2008 10:10 am |
|
Excuse me, I am new here. I am so extremely offended by the remarks of this thread! Let me start by saying that, YES, the Patriarch of the Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East resides in Chicago instead of Iraq. But he did NOT isolate anyone from our great Church! Do you know the story of Ashur Soro? (Formerly "Mar Bawai"?)
Let me start by saying that "Assyrian Catholic Apostolic Diocese" is and never was a part of Assyrian Church of the East! In fact, Soro created that diocese just 4 months ago.
Ashur Soro was ordained a bishop over 20 years ago by the current Patriarch. On that day, he swore his allegiance to our Patriarch, calling him his new father and the Church his mother. However what he did was disgusting. He placed 3 church parishes into a new diocese he created, which named him as the sole director! THEN he refinanced those properties and took out MILLIONS of dollars and did God knows what with it! When our Patriarch questioned him on these things, he replied with a RESTRAINING ORDER against the Patriarch and told him that if he wants the churches back, to take him to court! So our dear Church spent millions of dollars in attorneys and legal fees! He held fundraisers for himself so that he could continue to hold our churces hostage! He continued to claim that he held the deed to those properties and they belonged to him! He was removed from his position, yet he couldn't see that what he was doing was stealing! Well, WE WON the lawsuit and he was forced to return all properties which rightfully belonged to the Church all along! However, the case for punitive damages is not yet settled and the IRS has launched an investiation of Soro's little numbers game.
Are these the actions of a Christian man? Can this man be trusted to adhere to the rules of authority? Especially after seeing how he treated his former Patriarch, and how he financially raped each member of our Church, I can only hope that the Vatican will refuse to accept this man. If Vatican accepts him, then it is the vatican who places itself into isolation from the rest of the civilized world who can clearly see that Soro was/is wrong.
Our beloved Patriarch never isolated anyone from our Church. It was Soro who placed chains and locks on our Church doors and refused entry to anyone who did not support him. So please don't be so quick to make reports that the world's population of Assyrians plan on joining the RCC because that couldn't be farther from the truth. And actually, you should know that there is a group of Assyrians who have a branch under the Vatican. The Chaldean Church. Their nationality is Assyrian. (But that's another disaster misunderstanding.) It is well documented that Assyrians were among the first Christians of the world, and to this day, still speak the beautiful Aramaic language that Jesus Christ spoke. You were right to ask why isn't this more publicized, and why aren't people talking more about this. You're right, people should be talking about this, and saying what a big mistake it would be for the Vatican to welcome this criminal into the RCC. Meanwhile, our Church doors are open and we are pure in heart. God is with us, and no man, no Soro can destroy us.
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4984 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Apr 1st, 2008 12:16 pm |
|
Assyrian wrote: Excuse me, I am new here. I am so extremely offended by the remarks of this thread!
We're glad to have you here with us, and I'm sorry if you were offended in any way, but I can't see where we did anything but reproduce a press release and then question its significance.
We do allow posters freedom of speech as long as they remain within the forum guidelines, so everyone has the ability to post their own opinion on matters that do not concern Catholic Church doctrine. It seems to me that I pointed out that his was a press release from a few individuals. If they are no longer associated with their patriarch, then the legitimacy of apostolic succession will be questioned, which will threaten to invalidate the sacraments of the Church.
Our user "A Simple Sinner" expressed his opinion and you have expressed yours. As a fellow user, I have no reason to doubt either of you. We will see what Rome decides. In the mean time, I really don't think there is cause for offense. Let the legal and canonical processes take their course.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
Assyrian
Member
| Joined: | Tue Apr 1st, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 5 |
| First Name: | ACOE | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 06:30 am |
|
A Simple Sinner wrote: "No, Rick, by all indications, the congregations have evinced interest in coming with them. It is not just individuals, it is the entire clergy and laity of a diocese that was put into canonical isolation in 2005 from the Patriarch in Chicago."
Then he went on to say "Please pray for this group on their journey home"
These comments are extremely offensive because it gives a blanket statement that every member ("it is the entire clergy and laity of a diocese") are coming with Soro to RCC. That is a complete fabrication! While he does have a following, it is a small fraction of the size of our great Church.
Then in the same sentence he further slashed the ACOE by saying "a diocese that was PUT INTO canonical isolation in 2005 FROM the Patriarch in Chicago" That is a tremendously false allegation because as I pointed out earlier, it was Soro who isolated himself by serving his Patriarch with a restraining order, then taunting the entire Synod to sue him while he held Church properties hostage. Our beloved Patriarch did NOT "put" anyone into isolation! That is slandering the good name of His Holiness Mar Dinkha IV and making him out to be the villain. His Holiness was the victim in this, and Soro has left a great scar on this Church as well as the Assyrian Nation.
Soro already participates in Holy Mass at Roman Catholic Churches almost every Sunday! I find that very offensive. I'd like to know why RCC allows a defrocked bishop to mock the Holy Altar while he performs invalid Sacraments. His newly created "Assyrian Catholic APOSTOLIC Diocese" is yet another one of his creative fabrications because there is no apostolic succession, he created this himself only 4 months ago (hardly old enough to have any direct links to any apostle!)
Now my question to you, now that you are aware of Soro's creative monetary mismanagement and raping of ACOE, how do you feel about the fact that he is being welcomed into YOUR church by the Vatican? If nothing else, the Vatican owes it to the ACOE to show good sportsmanship and tell Soro where to go.
|
|
|
Assyrian
Member
| Joined: | Tue Apr 1st, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 5 |
| First Name: | ACOE | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 06:42 am |
|
Additionally, I'd like to respond to A Simple Sinner's comment :
"Please pray for this group on their journey home"
Please let there be no mistake on this, HOME to us, is the Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East. We are not looking for a new home, We are home! We've never been without a home. We knew Jesus before anyone else, we walked with Him, we fought for Him and we spread word of Him. How many Roman soldiers were there speaking in Aramaic with Jesus? There is nothing that Rome can offer us in exchange for our beautiful identity and our mother tongue Aramaic. Pope John Paul II called ACOE the martyr's church, he praised us and encouraged us to stay who we are and did not see the need for us to submit to Rome. The only one who wishes to join RCC is a sinful evil Soro. Anyone foolish enough to accept him should consider themselves warned of what he's capable of.
|
|
|
DrDave
Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Mildura, Australia |
| Posts: | 211 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle - Lapsed - Renewed Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 07:15 am |
|
Assyrian, it is clear that you are hurt and angry, partly at what was said by A Simple Sinner but mostly at the actions of the man you identfy as Ashur Soro (Formerly "Mar Bawai").
Could you clear up a couple of things for me? Please understand that I know little more about this subject than what has been posted on this thread.
It seems that one of the statements made by A Simple Sinner that you object to is "a diocese that was put into canonical isolation in 2005 from the Patriarch in Chicago" You charge that he removed himself (and I assume by extension those that followed him) from ACOE yet go on to say in the same paragraph "He was removed from his position".
I'm sorry, but this seems to me like one of those screaming matches you often see on tv comedies - "You're fired!" - "You can't fire me, I quit!".
Did the Patriarch remove him from his position? Would this not look to those on the recieveing end (regardless of the circumstances leading up to it) as "a diocese that was put into canonical isolation in 2005 from the Patriarch in Chicago"?
You also seem rather put out by the use of the term "Apostolic" in ACAD. My questions to you on this are "Does your Patriarch have valid apostolic succession?" "Did he make Soro a Bishop?" "Does Soro therefore have valid apostolic succession?" "Did his 'removal from his position' mentioned earlier cause him to cease being a validly ordained Bishop with valid apostolic succession, or did it remove his Patriarch's permission to use those faculties?"
Regards Doc
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4984 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 11:45 am |
|
Assyrian wrote: A Simple Sinner wrote: "No, Rick, by all indications, the congregations have evinced interest in coming with them. It is not just individuals, it is the entire clergy and laity of a diocese that was put into canonical isolation in 2005 from the Patriarch in Chicago."
Then he went on to say "Please pray for this group on their journey home"
These comments are extremely offensive because it gives a blanket statement that every member ("it is the entire clergy and laity of a diocese") are coming with Soro to RCC. That is a complete fabrication! While he does have a following, it is a small fraction of the size of our great Church.
You misunderstand the purpose of this forum. The ministry of CHNI is to provide information and assistance to those interested in "coming home" to the Catholic Church. We rejoice when anyone expresses an interest in joining us, regardless of their prior faith affiliation. If a hundred people (including bishop, priests, deacons, and laity) join the Church, we consider that a good thing. If you find that offensive, maybe you need to find another forum. We're not here to defend other faith communities, although we do try to treat them with respect and honor them for the truths they contain.
If this particular bishop's actions were criminal, he needs to be prosecuted. If they are worthy of civil action, then that's the path that should be taken. We will still rejoice if a lost sheep comes home (in this case, a lost shepherd). We would rejoice at the faith of a condemned murderer if he decided to join the Church.
If there are items in this thread that are inaccurate, you need to provide us with the correct information and back it with source references. As I indicated above, I was skeptical about the whole report and considered it as though a few individuals had chosen to return to the Catholic Church. The fact that a diocesan structure has been set up (valid or not) adds a little more significance because of the possibility that members of congregations will return as well. I still have not found any source to corroborate the original press release or anything said in this thread, including your statements. Anyone can write a press release. When I worked as a reporter, I would throw away 20 for every one I used, and even then I always verified and rewrote them to provide credibility and balance. The press release quoted above has not been vetted in any way; it is presented verbatim. I've never seen a press release that was not inherently biased because it presents only one side of the issue. I tried to find the other side; I couldn't, which in my opinion lends credibility to my original impression that it really isn't such a big deal. My responses were based on unverified information presented only in this thread, as I indicated. At the time this thread was originally started, I was a forum moderator. I no longer hold that position, but my interest in CHNI and in reunification remains unchanged.
I don't doubt that Protestants and Orthodox of many types would find opinions expressed here offensive. I have been offended by some of the comments made against the Catholic Church, and I have responded when I felt it advisable. Our guidelines permit everyone to express their opinions within certain defined limits, but it is not within our guidelines to avoid giving offense to those who are not Catholic, as long as we are speaking the truth or relating personal experiences. If the things said here are untrue (in this thread and elsewhere), they need to be challenged according to the Guidelines. Our members are intelligent enough to draw their own conclusions.
The "Coming Home Network" is dedicated to bringing our separated brothers and sisters (including you) home to the Catholic Church. Our members include those who wish to learn more about the Catholic faith, or who wish to share their Catholic faith and knowledge. You are welcomed here as long as you fall into one of those categories, but the purpose of this forum is not to defend the Assyrian Church or any other faith community other than the Catholic Church. We want all humanity to be united in faith under our Holy Father. We look forward to the day that Jesus' wish will come true, that all will be one as he and his Father are one.
Until that day, we will rejoice when any of our separated brothers and sisters expresses an interest in joining the Catholic Church, whether it be a bishop of the Assyrian Church, an Episcopal priest, an African-American Pentacostal pastor like Alex Jones (who entered with his family and a good chunk of his congregation), a college student at a small college in Maryland, a brilliant Presbyterian scholar like Scott Hahn, a Baptist preacher who's now driving a truck, a former Episcopal priest who is now a Catholic priest, or a Lutheran housewife in suburbia.
And if that offends you, I can't help it. Perhaps you need to re-read our Forum Guidelines (which you agreed to follow) and decide whether this is the right forum for you.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4984 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 12:01 pm |
|
Let me add very quickly (I have to go to work) that I have great respect for all our Eastern sister Churches, especially the Assyrian Church, and I look forward to the day that our Churches are reunited, not as submission to the pope but as mutual respect and partnership between ancient apostolic sees. That will truly be a day when all Christians will rejoice!
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
ACADONE
Member
| Joined: | Thu Apr 17th, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 1 |
| First Name: | ACADONE | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic, Apolostic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 17th, 2008 04:42 am |
|
Hi
I just was online reading some of the comments that everyone has posted and I would like to offer another side to the perpective. I realize that many of the posts here are from individuals that are not completely familiar with the circumstances that have caused the changes that have happened involving Mar Bawai and ACAD. I can tell you that Mar Bawai was DID NOT segregate himself from the Assyrian Church of the East. He was in fact segregated. He was told he was being insubordinante due to a letter he wrote to the Partriarch. The letter was in written because of a problem that the church was having on the Bishops and their actions that were unacceptable. Also there were Bishops that were unsupportive of Mar Bawai and his philosophy for unity among all churches. They did not see this as something the Assyrian Church of the East should infact act upon.
I have studied under Mar Bawai for many years as a young Assyrian and have never had any reason to question his philosophy or teaching. He has been very through in explaining the Bible and what it truely means to be a child of God. I suggest that if you would like to learn more about him you do a search and you will find a website of what he has to say along with many books that he has written.
I will not go on and say how angry I am at the previous Assyrian Post and what they feel. I hear the anger that they have any they need to realize that doesn't help any of us. We have never said that we are bitter or angry with anyone that does not believe in what Mar Bawai brings to the Christian communities. We have and always will have faith that we will be helped by our Lord in all we do. As I write this Mar Bawai, Mar Sarhad Jamo and two priests are finalizing their planned trip to meet in Rome with the Pope to discuss the final phase of our Full Communion with the Catholic Church. We pray that all will be clear and finalized when they return.
I wish you all peace and Love in our Savior's name.
Amen
|
|
|
ASimpleSinner
Member
| Joined: | Sun Nov 4th, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 40 |
| First Name: | Simple | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Byzantine Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri May 9th, 2008 08:08 pm |
|
Assyrian wrote: If Vatican accepts him, then it is the vatican who places itself into isolation from the rest of the civilized world who can clearly see that Soro was/is wrong.
Any moral high ground that you felt you had to begin with was washed away with this little number.
Casting aspersians on Rome and going for character assasination (something Mar Bawai's detractors have excelled in!) has no charity in it. If he is cast off and you don't care for him anyway, what worries do you have that he becomes Catholic?
We affirm our Catholic beliefs that the Pope of Rome is the head of the Church on earth, and as noted above, when anyone enters in with us, we say it is coming home. I don't apologize for having these Catholic beliefs - I have cast no aspersians on the Church of the East or the Ancient Church of the East in saying this.
|
|
|
ASimpleSinner
Member
| Joined: | Sun Nov 4th, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 40 |
| First Name: | Simple | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Byzantine Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat May 10th, 2008 03:25 am |
|
Actually, the more I am thinking about this, the more I am noticing a trend in all the forums where Mar Bawai is discussed - people show up, register just to comment on the matter, and never come back.
Is this a concerted smear campaign on the man and his people or just a hobby?
|
|
|
Assyrian
Member
| Joined: | Tue Apr 1st, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 5 |
| First Name: | ACOE | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat May 10th, 2008 06:16 am |
|
First of all, I have been out of town/out of commission. Many personal family and work related issues has kept me away from the computer and definitely away from forums, so forgive my delayed response. Life happens.
To Doc, you asked a very good question, and I understand how it can seem confusing. Did he quit or was he fired... It started with many little things that soro did which was outright disrespect towards his Holy Father, His Holiness Mar Dinkha IV. I do not know how to post letters, but there is proof of such disrespectful communications between the two men. Additionally, 300 families wrote letters of complaints about Soro, so our Patriarch was compelled to investigate. Upon investigation, it was discovered that Church property was placed in Soro's personal name. He created a new name for a new diocese and then named himself the sole owner. What was the Patriarch to do? He asked soro what was going on? Now in my personal opinion, I don't think the Pope would even know about a bishop doing such things, nor would he even get involved especially so early into the discovery of the problem. But anyway, our Patriarch was involved and tried to get to the bottom of the problem. He was asked to turn over all the books so that proper accounting could be reviewed. Soro refused. So the Holy Synod held a meeting to figure what to do with this Bishop who was literally disobeying and refusing to comply with orders. The Holy Synod decided to give Soro 3 options. Soro refused to pick any option and immediately retaliated with restraining orders against the Patriarch and the entire Synod. I don't know how to insert a copy of the letter that he wrote... but he wrote a letter to the Patriarch telling him basically "you want your properties, take me to court." So it is really confusing, was he thrown out/fired? Or did he quit? I guess you could say neither because quitting means giving notice, turning in a letter of resignation, etc. which he did not do. And being thrown out would mean he was never given any options. That's not true either. He was given 3 options and he chose to choose neither. He is supposed to submit to his Patriarch, be it the Pope or Mar Dinkha. When a man of the cloth is given orders, he is supposed to comply whether he likes it or not.
So then that's when the story really got messy because soro didn't think that the Church would actually spend millions of dollars to take him to court. But it did, and the Church rightfully won because soro didn't have a legal leg to stand on. Without a reasonable doubt, the buildings were property of the Church, not one bishop. If soro had nothing to hide, he would have immediately changed the way the title was read and apologized for the way it must have looked. I know I'd be pretty embarassed if someone thought I was stealing from them, but I was actually innocent. I'd clear it up and close the case as quickly as possible.
Soro did not do that. He immediately got lawyers and held fund raisers for himself so that the court case could be dragged on for nearly 2 years. All because he didn't want to hand over the keys and title and say "oops, sorry."
There are pages and pages of his deposition. In it, he claims that the churches were given to him as gifts, that the word "entrusted" really means "gifted." So round and round people had to argue about what does the word "entrusted" really mean. Were the Churches "entrusted" to him or were they "gifted" to him. He also tried to claim that the Church of the East does not have Apostolic succession. Hmm, thats funny, So if he honestly believes that it doesn't, then it means he also does not have apostolic succession.... right? If the one who ordained him had no authority to ordain him, then his ordination would be invalid- and that's according to soro himself! So did he have the right to create a new "apostolic diocese?" Is it validly apostolic? I dunno, you tell me. It's hard to follow soro's logic there.
And to anyone who thinks that I have attacked Rome or blamed Rome, I apologize. In fact, I clearly stated that God rest his soul, but Pope John Paul II was very respectful of our Church and did not see any reason for us to submit to Rome. He infact acknowledged that there is no difference between our two churches. So my faith is the same as yours. I am not some nazi coming here and accusing catholics of idol worshiping or saint lovers. I am on the same page with you on all Catholic issues. My point regarding the Vatican's decision to welcome a person like soro, especially when the financial aspect of the lawsuit has yet to be resolved, is quite offensive. The Assyrian Church of the East deserves to be supported by its Roman sister church and we should be receiving condolences for what soro has put us through, not condemnation for following through with the lawsuit. We won the Churches back in the judicial system in the United States of America, not a little alley in Iraq. Clearly, Soro lost, he was in the wrong, and he commited enormous sins against our church and put us through tremendous financial hardship. All I'm saying is, I feel that although the Roman Church loves and forgives everyone (as it rightfully should) but it is not ok to cover up someone's wrong doing and pretend nothing ever happened. We suffered damages because of this man. If 10 years from now soro decided he's sorry, and he's paid back his debt to our church, and THEN he wanted to join Rome, I don't think any of us would care. If he wanted to join Rome 3 years ago before the lawsuit, still nobody would mind. We would wish him well in his search. But this lawsuit is not over and we are still struggling every month to pay the mortgage on the properties that soro refinanced. Buildings that were once paid off, now have millions of dollars mortgaged against them and we are paying for it. I'd appreciate if Rome acknowledged the bind we are in because of soro, instead of hugging and welcoming him and rejoicing that he left a trail of destruction behind him.
God bless you.
|
|
|
DrDave
Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Mildura, Australia |
| Posts: | 211 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle - Lapsed - Renewed Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue May 13th, 2008 12:44 am |
|
I noted with interest an article on CWN that stated that the bishop in question and his followers were recieved into full communion with the Chaldean Catholic Church on Sunday. (Pentecost 2008)
The article linked to the RORATE CAELI blog article which mentions a paper delivered November 2, 2005 in support of Papal primacy, and notes that he was suspended five days later.
The blog then links to a Zinda Magazine article with some documentation (and some spin) with regard to the history leading up to this split.
Please join me in praying for all involved
Regards Doc
|
|
| | |
