 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 856 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 27th, 2008 08:07 pm |
|
Where's the newsworthyness in the recent Pew Report about Faith in the U.S.? The nation still remains by and large, a Protestant nation, is still the church of immigrants, and the number of "seekers" continues to rise; not to mention the number of non-Christian faiths.
What I found laughable was listening to reporters telling their readers and electronic media audiences that Protestantism took a hit, down to 51 percent of the church-going population from 75 pct. during the mid Seventies. Ah, but the report did mention the rise of megachurches. And, guess what "denominational umbrella" the megachurches happen to fall under? Protestantism.
Calling a church a local "non-denominational" congregation doesn't make it any less Protestant.
What alarms me is continued over-characterization of Catholicism as the Christian branch for immigrants. In this sensitive era of anti-immigrant feelings, the last thing the Catholic Church needs is to be boxed into this corner again as it had been in the 19th century. Especially so in this age of banal, megachurchianity and prosperity-gospel non-denominational churches rising across the landscape--especially those that succeed greatly by promoting the ever oh so cleverly packaged casualness of American evangelical "theology."
Why, who wouldn't want to fit in with this ever popular and rising development in casual, non-binding, non-judgmental, non-demanding form of "christianity" -- especially when the mealy mouths like Joel Osteen can flash their wide toothy smiles and promise everything under the sun, and all without having to look at those nasty crosses reminding them of the not-so-pleasant days of Christianity, even here in the western hemisphere's version of the land of milk and honey?
Yes, the Church has shot itself over and over through the sex and cover-up scandals, but we have a lot more to offer the rest of the nation than simple pleasing and non-challenging bromides to numb both minds and souls.
It's time to stop worrying about the sheep who strolled away beause they won't come back unless we have something besides handwringing and continual apolgies coupled with a stronger desire to "fit in" and become "more American" Christians--read: Evangelical Protestants. Let's give these people something to come back to: A Catholic faithfull with more backbone.
When strayed Catholics and non-Catholic Christians see us for what we are and always have been (since that moment when Jesus gave St. Peter the keys, and prayed for continued unity on the night before He was crucified) as FULL Christians and full participants in the so-called American culture, they'll come back.
Quite frankly, I've had my full plate of the "why get so bothered over the details" type of happy-faced "aw shucks" Christianity this country has been "treated" to, especially since the advent of television. Yes, Jesus used simplicity and hated the haughtiness of the Pharisees. On the other hand, Jesus was also a million steps ahead of so many of his most vocal proponents of this oh-so-American "gospel of wealth" and judgmentalism of the politicized "family values" movement.
America's nice: Heaven's best.
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
|
|
|
Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 856 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 05:24 am |
|
More about the Pew Report: It seems as if some of our more arch-conservative evangelical "friends" have no shame insofar as how far they'll spin the recent Pew Report and gloat about both the decline of mainline Protestant denominations, and of course, Catholicism. One such columnist's (Bob Burney) misreading about the decline of Catholicism within the US reeked of nativist sentiments and smugness. Normally I wouldn't respond to such tripe, but given the recent heated arguments about immigration reform, the rise of the more "biblical" evangelical megachurches (especially in the Sunbelt) and of course, the notorious track record of sheep stealing these factories of fiction have built for themselves, I felt it necessary to hit back. My only regret is that I didn't think Town Hall's response space would allow me to get into the sheep stealing issue.
Would that've taken a few inches!
Let them gloat. The report doesn't tell us anything we haven't known all along. Sadly, though, it exposes a newer depth of shallowness some of even the most supposedly intelligent evangelical or pro-evangelical writers and anti-Catholics in general, will stoop to keep banging their steady drumbeat of religious prejudice.
I only wish the Pew Foundation would've been more upfront and said the fast-growing evangelical/non-denomination churches are no less Protestant than the dying and older mainline churches and congregations. Indeed, they are decidedly more Protestant and in some churches, outlandislhy and shamelessly slavish in their dedication to demonstrating the power of outright jingoism and biblioaltry.
I'm proud of my American heritage, but I'm even "prouder of my religious faith and direct spiritual lineage all the way back to the Lord and His Apostles. It doesn't get more "biblical" than that.
The website address is listed below for those who want to read this in full. But take it with some good strong coffee.
Click here
Some twenty years from now, people will be saying "Look at those Catholics still going strong ... and what's that old megachurch being used for now ... a strip mall? Gee, what comes around does indeed go around."
Edited to shorten link.
Last edited on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 01:27 pm by
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
|
|
|
Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1656 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 08:15 pm |
|
Hi Steven,
It may be heartening to you to hear (if you haven't) that Bill Hybels has admitted that much of his own "seeker-sensitive" strategy has failed to produce disciples. If past history is any guide, evangelicalism will reach a critical mass of goofiness and trendiness, then there will be a revival back to historic evangelical theology. It still has problems, but at least the historic brand beats the nonsense that too often passes for evangelicalism these days.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
|
|
|
rbo4u2
Member
| Joined: | Tue Jan 16th, 2007 |
| Location: | Sunnyvale, California USA |
| Posts: | 430 |
| First Name: | Rich | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Formerly Christian & Missionary Alliance then became Presbyterian |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 08:59 pm |
|
Dave Armstrong wrote: Hi Steven,
It may be heartening to you to hear (if you haven't) that Bill Hybels has admitted that much of his own "seeker-sensitive" strategy has failed to produce disciples. If past history is any guide, evangelicalism will reach a critical mass of goofiness and trendiness, then there will be a revival back to historic evangelical theology. It still has problems, but at least the historic brand beats the nonsense that too often passes for evangelicalism these days.
Dave, You may be interested to know that our pastor is a former associate from Willow Creek. We've heard some of this before and as a result there is a major difference in some of the emphasis at our Presbyterian Church. Dr. John Ortberg is our pastor. You can purchase his books just about anywhere. Our church is now focusing on reaching the community through satellite churches. We have one north of us and one south. The big thrust now is to build a membership that has an evangelistic vision of reaching the unchurched through love, descipleship through small groups and community social service outreach. We have multi million dollar plus budget. Nine million dollars alone are set aside for the 2 satellite churches. This spring we will suspend Sunday services one weekend to "take Christ into the community" through various social services. Many of us will pack thousands of AIDS kits to go to Ethiopia and other areas in Africa to support caregivers there through World Vision. We will clean up and rebuild local schools, visit shut-ins and rest homes, build a home through Habitat to Humanity and other social activities. This in turn is carried out through the year by various ministries within the church.
I'm not bragging, but one of the things they want to do is be Christ to those in need. Our pastor has a favorite phrase, "bringing heaven down to earth". Unfortunately, our worship services are more celebrations than actual worship. (my opinion) Much like many of the "mega-churches" although I'm not sure our 5000 member church is really a "mega-church"
What Dr. Ortberg is trying to do is correct and learn from the mistakes of Willow Creek. He is heavily influenced by Dallas Willard, a prominent Christian philosopher of our day as well as many of the contemplative teachings of Richard Foster of the Renovare movement.
Despite all this, I'm being led away from our church simply because I don't feel at home there anymore. I miss the cross front and center and the old emphasis of the liturgy of the word. It has something missing. And I think I know what it is. It is found in the Catholic church.
So there you have it. From someone very familiar with the evangelical mega-church movement.
Rich
|
|
|
Free
Member
| Joined: | Wed Nov 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 185 |
| First Name: | Jane | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Gnostic, non-denominational, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 09:49 pm |
|
Are you kidding? No cross in a Presbyterian church? Astonishing. I've written about the lack of a cross at the non-denominational church I attended, yet I'm still taken aback to think of a Presbyterian church removing their cross! So do you have motivational sayings on the walls? "Be a Team Player" and "Live the Life You Were Born to Live" and so forth?
|
|
|
rbo4u2
Member
| Joined: | Tue Jan 16th, 2007 |
| Location: | Sunnyvale, California USA |
| Posts: | 430 |
| First Name: | Rich | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Formerly Christian & Missionary Alliance then became Presbyterian |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 09:59 pm |
|
Free wrote: Are you kidding? No cross in a Presbyterian church? Astonishing. I've written about the lack of a cross at the non-denominational church I attended, yet I'm still taken aback to think of a Presbyterian church removing their cross! So do you have motivational sayings on the walls? "Be a Team Player" and "Live the Life You Were Born to Live" and so forth?
Actually I mispoke. There is a cross. The church sanctuary is an older style in the shape of a cross. A small four or five foot cross hangs on the right wall as you face the front of the church. It would be the right arm of the cross if you look at it from above. If you are seated toward the rear of the sanctuary it's difficult to see. We have gorgeous stain glass windows all around with scripture scenes and one set dedicated for prayer.
The main floor to ceiling stained glass window in the front of the sanctuary is a figure of the tree of life from the book of Genesis. No...no cheesy banners around. When they do have them, they are usually scriptural quotes or phrases.
Actually, if a crucifix were hung front and center, it would be a very worshipful sanctuary. It's a well known place and many weddings are held there because of it's beauty.
|
|
|
JasPax
Member
| Joined: | Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 |
| Location: | North Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 230 |
| First Name: | James | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Episcopal to Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 10:30 pm |
|
Pew Report:
Here is an interesting article by Bishop Wenski of Florida:
http://www.catholicexchange.com/node/70265
God's Blessings,
____________________
James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
|
|
|
kimdyuma
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 821 |
| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Anglican, Episcopal /Catholic-04/07/07 |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Wed Mar 5th, 2008 01:32 am |
|
Great article
____________________
Adopt from your local Humane Society- Please spay or neuter your pets
|
|
|
Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 856 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Mar 5th, 2008 01:08 pm |
|
Great Posts Everybody!
Wouldn't it have been more to the point if the Pew report simply said so much of Protestant or "American" worship is being set up to look more like a cross between a late night talk show, backyard bar-b-que and basement bible study? No sense of formality. Old hat, right? Nothing heavy to think about. But if you really want to sink your teeth into something, there'll always be the ever present big juicy steak of easy-going and and oh-so exciting motivational and worshipful experiences one can gain by listening to Pastor Personality's weekly "messages."
Thankfully the pastor in my family's church works harder on matching up the appropriate scriptures to bolster his points than worrying about his acting and posturing -- or worse, how he "relates."
What scares the hell out of me is when I go back to a Catholic parish I used to attend and see either the ravagings of Kumbaya Kulture or in-roads of "American" worship thanks to overly Americanized American Catholics who seemed to have forgotten that they belong to a very visible and international Church. We may have to use smelling salts if we don't break the news to this bunch that the Catholic Church is called Catholic for a REASON. And that reason was spelled out long ago quite well by a prominent Church scholar, and martyred saint; St. Ignatius.
And, yes, the "gatherings" his small groups held were indeed called Masses back then in the days of that Real Old Time Religion. Why, they even had The Real Presence, and their Communion wasn't shaped by a businessman seeking to match a practical need for orderly distribution of desacramentalized elements to meet another practical need: profits.
No matter what the Pew report says, we can rest (but not too smugly) in the comfort of knowing that our Mass is not of recent vintage, of Divine Origin, not a "human construct," (as I heard one gentleman and preacher, no less, say about the development of the Mass and Protestant liturgies) and that no matter what the numbers say, we, the great "unwashed" and "foreign" kind of Christians who follow an "apostate faith" and the "whore of Babylon" aren't about to go away; quietly, submissively, or even through osmosis.
Our lights will always be left on and we'll always have crosses -- with Jesus on them to remind us that Salvation doesn't just come through bowing one's head and signing a pledge card.
What keeps us going is knowing that we are but servants of God first, everything else second. But our Protestant and other non-Catholic friends need not worry because that means we'll be following what "the Bible says" and obeying constituted authority which derives its powers not only from the people, but from the ultimate authority: God Himself.
Lest anybody still doubt us on this point, remind them of all the buckets of Catholic blood shed from Iwo Jima to Kabul.
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
|
|
|
Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 856 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Mar 5th, 2008 01:38 pm |
|
Kudos to the Bishop on his column! Having lived in Orlando, worked there as a probation/parole officer and WDW "cast member," during my various years in Florida, including my four years as a student/graduate of St. Thomas Univ. in Miami-Dade, I know fully well what kind of a tiger's tail he has his hands on. I copied one paragraph which wonderfully encapsulated what he and so many other prelates across the country are facing. After all, Orange Co. Florida is, much like it's fellow Disneyfied counterpart namesake in California, a huge bellweather community. Consider it a Catholic canary in a Bible Belt/Sunbelt mineshaft!
Here's Bishop Wenski!
"Something changed though when their children and grandchildren entered into the American mainstream. Catholics were assimilated - or absorbed - into American culture resulting in an erosion of Catholic identity. The parish play a lesser role in their lives. The strong individualism of our culture undermines the sense of a "collective identity". And thus Americans become individual "consumers" of religion, picking their religious identity "a la carte" as it were. Churches are seen as merely voluntary organizations and affiliation or non affiliation a matter of personal taste or choice. The attraction of the Evangelical denominations with their emphasis on the therapeutic side of faith seems to bear this out."
For all readers and posters: if you're ever in Orlando, take a little time out of your vac. and other schedules to pay a visit to his beautiful Cathedral grounds and the Basilica dedicated to Mary off I-4 enroute to the Shrine of Secularism (where you can also see the Ferry boats and hotel launches I used to "pilot." If you were a soul on my vessel, especially any ferry I piloted, you'll know why I put the "hooks" on the word "piloted."
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
|
|
|
BodRod
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 818 |
| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Mar 5th, 2008 01:57 pm |
|
| Why do they call all non-Catholic churches "protestant" chuches when most of them were not around in the protesting days of the 1400s to 1600s? It seems to me that the only protestant churches are the one established by the reformers and, of course, the likes of Henry VIII. Last edited on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 03:50 pm by BodRod
____________________
Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
|
|
|
rbo4u2
Member
| Joined: | Tue Jan 16th, 2007 |
| Location: | Sunnyvale, California USA |
| Posts: | 430 |
| First Name: | Rich | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Formerly Christian & Missionary Alliance then became Presbyterian |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Mar 5th, 2008 02:55 pm |
|
 I guess I'm a little sensitive so please forgive me. Catholics have good reason to "protest" the unjust accusations and stereotypes we Protestants have heaped upon you. And men like Hagee and Parsley and others have totally abused and distorted the scriptures totally out of context.
And yes, we Protestants can't figure out our identity or which doctrine we want to follow. That's one of the reasons I'm moving gingerly toward the Catholic faith. I'm tired of powderpuff sermons and nightclub worship. I've done my share of Catholic bashing in my past, but then I discovered the love of Jesus and that love extended to Catholics. It took a while, but now I believe Catholics can love the lord just as much as I can. Maybe more so.
So I say with what love I have, I'm a bit bothered by some of the thing said in this string. It is wrong for us Protestants to crucify and bash Catholics. It breaks the law of love. By the same token, it's equally wrong to bash or use inflammatory language against Protestants. We probably deserve it more than Catholics, but that doesn't make it right. Love goes both ways.
It is appropriate to differ with, argue, even dispute each other's views on this forum but I hope we also respect each other. One of the reasons I left the Catholic Answers forum is it was so full of flame throwers. I'm on a journey of faith. I also have many years of theological training behind me and need to adjust a great deal of it. I can handle some of the rough and tumble of dialogue. But some who are researching the faith, especially the newbys, may not have that background. They need the welcoming arm of love, not diatribes with flaming adjectives. Please understand, I believe everyone here is honest and faith filled and earnest in researching the faith or defending the faith. We all have differing personalities. Let's respect this.
Maybe I'm having a bad hair day and just too sensitive. But let's remember to lace our arguments with love. And I don't mean kum by ya, holding hands and dancing in a circle with sweet smiles of dreamy contentment.
I love you all.
Rich
|
|
|
Jackie
Member
| Joined: | Sat May 12th, 2007 |
| Location: | Jersey Shore, New Jersey USA |
| Posts: | 114 |
| First Name: | Jackie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Mar 5th, 2008 04:20 pm |
|
Steven Said: Calling a church a local "non-denominational" congregation doesn't make it any less Protestant.
A local bible believing pastor said he called his church by a benign name on purpose so that Catholics or any disfranchised Christian wouldn't be put off by aligning itself with former opposing denominations.
rbo4u2 said: And yes, we Protestants can't figure out our identity or which doctrine we want to follow.
Which is a discussion I am having with a member of a non-denom because I think they have incorporated, to varying degrees, aspects of all religions
Steven said: Let's give these people something to come back to: A Catholic faithfull with more backbone.
To which I say, where is the on-going Adult Catechesis? We can't and should not fall back on, because the Church said so. We can't back it up without continued learning. Parish wide/Diosesan wide !!!!!!!
Steven said: Let them gloat. The report doesn't tell us anything we haven't known all along. Sadly, though, it exposes a newer depth of shallowness some of even the most supposedly intelligent evangelical or pro-evangelical writers and anti-Catholics in general, will stoop to keep banging their steady drumbeat of religious prejudice.
A friend who is a relativly new member of a non-denom spouted the typical hate statement in a discussion with my brother at our family table to which she parroted "people who are not saved will go to hell" essentially damning all who do not "know Jesus as Lord and Saviour." My jaw dropped. So I can see how quickly this propaganda can be spread.
rbo4u2: The big thrust now is to build a membership that has an evangelistic vision of reaching the unchurched through love, descipleship through small groups and community social service outreach.
Sounds like works to me.  Another local church here who's pastor is a former Catholic is doing and working so much along the lines of our Catholic community that I had to comment; "He is sooo Catholic and doesn't even recognize it !"
Here's Bishop Wenski!
"Something changed though when their children and grandchildren entered into the American mainstream. Catholics were assimilated - or absorbed - into American culture resulting in an erosion of Catholic identity. The parish play a lesser role in their lives. The strong individualism of our culture undermines the sense of a "collective identity". And thus Americans become individual "consumers" of religion, picking their religious identity "a la carte" as it were. Churches are seen as merely voluntary organizations and affiliation or non affiliation a matter of personal taste or choice. The attraction of the Evangelical denominations with their emphasis on the therapeutic side of faith seems to bear this out."
That's a sad statement that rings true. Sad, just pitifully sad.
Maybe I'm having a bad hair day and just too sensitive.
I have those days too Rich, but your closing statment is echoed through this Church LOUD AND CLEAR I love you all. Back at ya!
|
|
|
rbo4u2
Member
| Joined: | Tue Jan 16th, 2007 |
| Location: | Sunnyvale, California USA |
| Posts: | 430 |
| First Name: | Rich | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Formerly Christian & Missionary Alliance then became Presbyterian |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Mar 5th, 2008 04:31 pm |
|
Jackie wrote:
rbo4u2: The big thrust now is to build a membership that has an evangelistic vision of reaching the unchurched through love, descipleship through small groups and community social service outreach.
Sounds like works to me. Another local church here who's pastor is a former Catholic is doing and working so much along the lines of our Catholic community that I had to comment; "He is sooo Catholic and doesn't even recognize it !"
Very very good observations Jackie. And yes, we Protestants preach works, but it's just in disguise. Many won't admit it, but when you pin us against the wall, we preach works too. It's often called works of sanctification. Which means something different in each denomination. Ha Ha. 
And we are liturgical too...of sorts. Each service is usually a carbon copy of the last as regards to order of worship. Just see what happens if you change the "order" of the service.
Now I need to go back to work and straighten the bad hair on my bald head.
|
|
|
Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1656 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Mar 5th, 2008 09:44 pm |
|
Why do they call all non-Catholic churches "protestant" chuches when most of them were not around in the protesting days of the 1400s to 1600s? It seems to me that the only protestant churches are the one established by the reformers and, of course, the likes of Henry VIII.
Oh, mostly, it is just custom after 500 years. Luther didn't like his party being called Lutherans. They called themselves "Evangelicals."
But on a broader level, Protestantism (as I wrote elsewhere recently) is, in its very essence, "other" than Catholicism. It has to protest Catholicism to justify its very existence; otherwise, non-Catholic Christians could and should just join us and be done with it.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
|
|
|
Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1656 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Mar 5th, 2008 09:47 pm |
|
So there you have it. From someone very familiar with the evangelical mega-church movement.
I appreciate hearing your input, Rich. I'm the first to say that not all is bad in any particular movement. Lots of good things are happening in your present church, without a doubt. But as you say, you don't even feel at home there anymore. It comes down to what the "Church" is, and if it has historical and doctrinal continuity and real authority. Sectarian denominationalism just does not provide an answer to that, and so the dilemma is avoided or rationalized away for the most part.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
|
|
|
BodRod
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 818 |
| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Mar 5th, 2008 11:02 pm |
|
| How about establishing a new set of definitions or church catagories? There will be Catholic, Protestants and Rabble-rousers. The last group will be so defined because they were started by a small group of individuals who were upset with the church they were in. I was raised in such a group and was a memebr for many years before I started my Journey home. We have one such group about 1/2 mile from here. They are currently meeting in a house. Later, I am sure, they will meet in a store front and maybe sometime down the road, have a church type building. Last edited on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 11:03 pm by BodRod
____________________
Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
|
|
|
Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 856 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Mar 5th, 2008 11:43 pm |
|
And they're all still protesting their neighbors' churches, all hundred or so of them scattered around one county, no less. If that's so, how come so many evangelical reformed Protestants keep saying their churches reflect an invisible body. Just head into any town and you're going to see, actually see with your very own eyes, a lot of visible signs of an invisible church.
Wow, not since the old tv sitcom "Soap" where the patriarch kept snapping his fingers and saying he was "invisible" had I witnesssed anything quite so amazing.
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
|
|
|
BodRod
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 818 |
| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Mar 6th, 2008 01:27 am |
|
| It seems to me that I read somewhere recently that there were 33,420 non-Catholic religions these days. That is a lot! Maybe that is why so many are meeting nowdays in store fronts, warehouses, cabinet shops and living rooms.
____________________
Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
|
|
|
Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 856 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Mar 6th, 2008 05:35 am |
|
| And they still think they're belonging to an "invisible" church!
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
|
|
|
Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1656 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Mar 6th, 2008 09:09 pm |
|
Hi Cliff,
How about establishing a new set of definitions or church catagories? There will be Catholic, Protestants and Rabble-rousers. The last group will be so defined because they were started by a small group of individuals who were upset with the church they were in.
What's the difference between the last two categories? The first Protestants were no different. They were upset with the church they were raised in, which was the Catholic Church! So the Lutherans started with one man: Luther. The Calvinists started with one guy: Calvin. The Zwinglians started from Zwingli. The Quakers were begun by Fox. The Anglicans were invented by Henry VIII, with the aid of Cromwell and Cranmer. Etc., etc. The only difference is that they have 500 years' history and so this gives them a veneer of respectability and "age" as if that changes how they originated (in schism).
I hate to be so frank about it but facts is facts.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
|
|
|
Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 856 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Mar 6th, 2008 10:02 pm |
|
| Just like Hank "Bocephus" Williams, Jr., they're just keeping up the "family tradition."
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
|
|
| | |
