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Faithful
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| Location: | York, Pennsylvania USA |
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Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 08:28 am |
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| I heard somewhere that the Pope may renounce the Catholic stance on Martin Luther as being a heretic. What is the true story here?
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Robert
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 12th, 2007 |
| Location: | Germany |
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| First Name: | Robert | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | The whole spectrum from black to white, now 100% Catholic! |
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Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 10:15 am |
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That is actually just a rumor stemming from a news report concerning the Pope's planned annual talk with his former doctorate students from his university days.
The subject of this year's discussion will be Martin Luther. A Roman newspaper just added a little spice to the story.
Thats all there is to it.
____________________
Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3:15)
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Faithful
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Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 12:18 pm |
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By looking on the Internet one would think that the Pope is changing prior Popes pronouncements, making the case against Papal infallibility. There are a couple anti-Catholic blogs and videos on YouTube about this. How can a reporter add to the words of the Pope and get away with it? I hope that these people so ready to attack the Papacy will have to eat some well-cooked crow!
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Robert
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Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 12:59 pm |
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In 1520 Luther was excommunicated for heresy by Pope Leo X (+1521). The Pope called him a “drunken German who will change his mind as soon as he is sober again”
Whether Luther ever got sober I don’t know, but I do know that he never changed his mind. In fact he went from his 95 thesis (for the most part an understandable position against the selling of Indulgences), to a full blown break with the Church.
To my knowledge, the only way the Pope can lift the Excommunication imposed on Luther by his predecessor is if unequivocal proof of Luther’s repentance and sacramental absolution surfaced.
____________________
Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3:15)
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
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Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 06:20 pm |
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Excommunication is not an infallible pronouncement by the pope, and an excommunication may indeed be reversed, as in the case of Galileo. Also, the pope and the Ecumenical Patriarch of the Orthodox Churches lifted centuries of mutual excommunications of each other's predecessors even though both sides had accused the other of heresy at the time.
So if Pope Benedict would decide to lift the excommunication of Martin Luther he could do it, but I would be very surprised if it happens. Just my personal opinion.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1656 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 07:50 pm |
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Our good buddies, anti-Catholic apologists James Swan ("Busy Minds Are Working to Make Black = White") and James White (complete with mention of yours truly at 1:29 and 4:31 in his You Tube presentation) already have foolishly jumped on a mere rumor from the secular media that has no substance to it.
Yet another illustration of the principle, "our enemy's enemy is our friend" . . . If evangelicals (who have by no means been treated kindly by the mainstream media or the entertainment world, either) don't know by now to be wary of such things, then what will it take? But the temptation for anti-Catholics to mock the Church is far too great, I suppose, to be thwarted by common sense and experience.
White publicly wondered how I would explain this to my readers, and doubted that I would apologize when this came out. The great humor and irony here (I've dealt with White off and on for almost 13 years now, and recently decided to cease any attempt to interact with him, due to the sheer futility of it) is that he makes a big deal about our views on Luther supposedly changing, when in fact, according to his own anti-Catholic theology and anti-sacramentalism, neither Martin Luther nor even St. Augustine could be Christians at all (as I proved in a paper, citing his own words).
That goes beyond the Catholic position, which would never deny that Luther or Lutherans were Christians. The "explaining" that needs to be done is all from White, not the Holy Father, or myself as a Catholic apologist who has written a ton of stuff about Luther and the Protestant Revolt.
The word "heretic," as applied to Protestants from a Catholic perspective, is very tricky. Basically, it is applied to particular doctrines only, not to entire denominations, because Protestants are fellow baptized, trinitarian Christians (thus vastly and essentially different in category from groups like JWs or Mormons or Christian Scientists, etc., where the entire group can be classified as a "heresy" or -- more so in Protestant usage -- a "cult").
Martin Luther was heretical from a Catholic perspective in at least 50 ways by 1520, as I have documented. While a Catholic can rejoice about many good things Luther also taught (I do so myself and cite him favorably in my books when he was right: such as relating to contraception or the Real Presence or baptismal regeneration), we cannot overlook or deny those areas where he was wrong (and dead wrong), as judged by constant Catholic apostolic tradition, passed down and infallibly preserved by the Church, by the supernatural protection of the Holy Spirit.
Last edited on Wed Mar 12th, 2008 08:07 pm by Dave Armstrong
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Steven Barrett
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 856 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 09:38 pm |
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Dave,
WHen I think of Luther, history and some of our more "hard core" separated non-Christian brethern, (read: lifelong professional anti-catholic Christians who continually give Protestantism a bad name all around), I can't help wondering how he'd feel towards them continually trying to shove our noses in the bible to where they have the smoking gun to prove where we went wrong.
His methods weren't always the best and of course, he was heretical. He was also bullheaded; but not just as a Protestant--he was that way all his life and that life was made a lot more difficult by many of his mental hang-ups. His virulent anti-semitism inspired the likes of Germany's two top Jew-baiters (after Hitler), Josef Goebbels and Julius Streicher and we all know what that led to. (If you know of any Holocaust deniers, pass them along to me so I can tell them about my visit to Dachau.)
BUT, I doubt if Luther would've cared for the in-your-face treatment many Catholics have received lately from the The Bible Is The Only And Final Appeal To Christian Truth crowd. There's always been that bunch, especially in this country; but it seems to have been taken up a notch by the megachurchianity folks, Hagee, LaHaye, Jack whatshisface n' name, and that ilk. Many square miles of clear-cutting had to be done to accomodate LaHaye's publishers. This is what's worrisome considering the blatant anti-Catholicism in the Left Behind series and the number of books sold through book stores and book clubs.
The Magisterium still gets ripped for being so cemented in history, in love with precedent like our Supreme Court, etc. But wait a second! Who's the real cement shoe folks? After all, there are folks with considerable responsibilities in the Vatican who are open to discussing giving Luther some slack and Pope John Paul II even honored him during his pontificate.
How is it then that we're still regarded as immovable ones? We're not the ones pushing the "The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it" mother of all conversation killer approaches.
Even Vater Martin would agree.
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 748 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 12:00 am |
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Steven Barrett wrote: Many square miles of clear-cutting had to be done to accomodate LaHaye's publishers.
Amen and amen! I read the first one many years ago, BC, (Before Catholicism), and was appalled at how big the text was and how much margin there was on each page and how short the stories and how expensive each book was! What a scam! How many of those blasted books are there??? They could probably put the whole lot in 2 decent sized volumes.
And Martin Luther was an IMP:
IMPetuous
IMPatient
IMPulsive and
IMPrudent.
I wonder what he's thinking now about what he started.
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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Steven Barrett
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
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| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Mar 14th, 2008 04:21 am |
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Impatient to undo a lot of wrongs, half-truths, quarter-truths and no-truths and nothing but plain full-fledged and unadulterated lies, damnable lies, too.
And, as for the "new church" he founded, well what's left of THAT?
Oh, well, they're having a lovely time listening to Garrison Keillor.
Guten abend, und Got mit Sie!
S.
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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