 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
brian
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 746 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 10:32 am |
|
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2008/05/holy-smoke-pope-wants-the-latin-mass-everywhere/
This would be an interesting development. Anyone else hearing anything about this? If the Pope would like to see this does that mean it would eventually happen, and how long would it take before it was seen?
|
|
|
Annie
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 734 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 01:21 pm |
|
It's pretty obvious from his writings over the last 20 years or so that the Pope is pretty not-so-enthusiastic about the way the liturgy has deteriorated to the detriment of our theology. I, too, believe he has a Marshall Plan to save the liturgy and eventually remove the Protestant elements from it. He has written several books on liturgy that are good reading.
Summorum Pontificum stated that the people requesting the Mass of the Ages should be accommodated whenever possible but it makes clear that any pastor can offer the Mass in the old form whenever he wishes. It does not require a request from parishioners to do it.
Last edited on Tue May 6th, 2008 01:23 pm by Annie
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
|
|
|
brian
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 746 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 05:38 pm |
|
It seemed this article was saying that he actually wants it offered in many places regardless if anyone priest or parish member requests it. Simply as an option that would be out there. This would be great because maybe there are many it would appeal to who simply do not know it yet but would enjoy it once in a while.
And of course lets remember that the pope is not necessarily against the new mass or any of the true reforms of Vatican II but simply the abuses. The mass itself besides perhaps the few translation errors being dealt with is considered one that will go on pretty much indefinitely and with complete legitimacy as it merits when celebrated appropriately. At least this is my understanding.
Brian
|
|
|
Annie
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 734 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 05:43 pm |
|
Summorum pontificum states that the traditional Latin Mass can be offered by any priest at any time without permission from the bishop. It does not say that a group of people has to request it though if people request it the priest has an obligation to at least try to accommodate them.
It is clear what the Pope has in mind, regardless of what some have tried to make it out to be. Hence the forthcoming clarification letter.
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5157 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 05:44 pm |
|
brian wrote: It seemed this article was saying that he actually wants it offered in many places regardless if anyone priest or parish member requests it. Simply as an option that would be out there. This would be great because maybe there are many it would appeal to who simply do not know it yet but would enjoy it once in a while.
And of course lets remember that the pope is not necessarily against the new mass or any of the true reforms of Vatican II but simply the abuses. The mass itself besides perhaps the few translation errors being dealt with is considered one that will go on pretty much indefinitely and with complete legitimacy as it merits when celebrated appropriately. At least this is my understanding.
I think you're absolutely right, Brian. I believe Pope Benedict, who was an influential theologian at Vatican II, understands the difference between what the Council Fathers intended and what we ended up with, and he is using his papacy to bring us back to the original intent. Masses using the extraordinary form should be available, as should masses in various cultural vernacular languages in a particular area. I would also like to see an expansion of the Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Churches into more areas, even if only offered occasionally by bi-ritual priests. It can only enrich our celebrations and broaden our horizens, and that will help us all to understand just how "catholic" our Church truly is.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
Annie
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 734 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 05:48 pm |
|
Rick is right, it's a real shocker to read Sacrosanctum Concilium and look at what we have in our own parishes now. *gaack* 
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
|
|
|
Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 812 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 10:36 pm |
|
Si, si, si, si, si Latin subito! Latin, right now.
I remember a funny quip attributed to Cardinal Newman who upon hearing a bishop harrumphed about the rising increase of the English laity, thinking the whole development rather ridiculous or silly. Newman turned the bishop's way of thinking upside down. thus leaving the rest of us to chuckle at the pride's this bishop's cost him in terms of posterity.
The same can almost be said for the cement-footed Kumbaya Katholic generation's clerics (and their amen choirs dominating any "liturgical councils") -- what would this Church start to look like if, (local chanceries forbid!) the Church started to look and actually be Catholic again.
Ah, to hear Latin (and I mean capital L Latin) sung in Mass, and guitars banned, not to mention any songs sounding like the poor man's Peter Paul and Mary junk we've been subjected to for so many years. One constant complaint I've heard from people who left for evangelical churches is that they didn't hear the gospel any more. Chances are they might've been so upset, outraged, whatever'd by the sound of THAT "music" that whatever they did hear was obliterated by the equivalent to somebody taking a squeeky chalk and dragging it across the entire board.
This time, instead of the squeeky chalk, it'll be the pleasant equal to Latin liturgy and Latin chants acting as a long overdue application of a smooth eraser wiping out so many abuses to our ears, not to mention all other spritual "sense."
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
|
|
|
mrsbmoo
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 282 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | former Methodist. RCA, Presbyterian, Holiness, Wesleyan... Catholic as of June ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 05:12 pm |
|
| I know this is not a popular feeling in this crowd but I am a little scared of a totally latin mass. I have heard stories about how in the 60s and 70s, people showed up for mass but sat around chatting because the priest was not facing them or interacting with them and they couldn't understand anything being said anyway. (This was in France and from my husband's experience as a child) I would hate to not get to sing or feel like I was participating and I know it might have scared me off the first time I visited if I couldn't understand a word they were saying.
____________________
Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 10 months and 17
|
|
|
Annie
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 734 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 05:18 pm |
|
| Fear not. One must understand what is really meant by "active participation." In Catholic circles active participation is an interior thing. Last edited on Wed May 7th, 2008 05:23 pm by Annie
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5157 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 05:22 pm |
|
mrsbmoo wrote: I know this is not a popular feeling in this crowd but I am a little scared of a totally latin mass. I have heard stories about how in the 60s and 70s, people showed up for mass but sat around chatting because the priest was not facing them or interacting with them and they couldn't understand anything being said anyway. (This was in France and from my husband's experience as a child) I would hate to not get to sing or feel like I was participating and I know it might have scared me off the first time I visited if I couldn't understand a word they were saying.
It never happened at any mass I ever attended, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me based on what I've heard of the faith in France and all of Europe.
In my opinion, we will never return to a totally Latin mass. Mass in the vernacular (language of the people) is here to stay and will always be the predominant form of liturgy, although I do agree that Latin masses are part of our heritage and should still be readily available for travelers and those who prefer that style of worship.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 812 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 07:40 pm |
|
 A Latin Midnight Mass I recently attended was "mixed" in the sense that the readings were in English, and some of the earlier prayers were also said in English. When it came to the Consecration, that's when the Priest used Latin.
Sure, I sometimes get a little carried away, but I've always preferred a workable arrangement that doesn't compromise the integrity of the Liturgy to the more contemporary blandness of Peter, Paul and Mary-ism that's been too long a hallmark of the giddyness of post-Vatican II "reforms." The irony is that many of these so-called "reforms" were shoved down the throats of many traditionalist priests and laity by a hard-core cadre of ecclesiastical Jacobins, and all they "accomplished" was leaving a bad taste resulting from all this "reform" many, if not actually most, Catholics cared for in the first place.
Gee, doesn't this sound familiarly close to the "popular" English "reformation"? Thank God we had stronger laws against arson.
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
|
|
|
Annie
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 734 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 07:57 pm |
|
Interestingly, being anti-Latin in the liturgy is a true hallmark of Protestantism.
The Vatican II documents clearly call for the ordinary to be in Latin, the readings may be in the vernacular. And chant everywhere. All chant, all the time, hey i would like that radio station!
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
|
|
|
Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 812 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu May 8th, 2008 07:57 pm |
|
We'd better be nice about this issue. Latest scuttlebutt I've heard is that the Pope really wants Masses sung in German with a Bavarian accent. And that some of the hier-ups in the Vatican want to make the Americans pay for our constant cranky American spirit of dissentuous rebelliousness, thus we'll be the only ones attending all German Masses.
The hier-ups are all Italian and Polish. What a coincidence!
Okaaaaaaay, bad joke. Not enough coffee earlier. However, I do have a serious suggestion, meaning not a joke, but not ponderous, either.
I have an old Latin/English St. Joseph Missal published back in 1962. It was brand new when my parents got it for me. BUT, I think if you can get your hands on one of these Missals, they'll be a big help until something more up-to-date, and permanent finally comes our way.
 (--a little --)
I have special memories of this missal for personal reasons: It was 22 years ago today, a thursday no less, that she passed away from liver cancer, with her Rosary Beads clutched ever so tightly in her "cold dead fingers." She prayed them every day (and I bet some more when we thought she wasn't even conscious during her last two days.)
I know for a fact, the likelihood of me being alive, or not caring enough to even think about belonging to a religious forum, and certainly not looking foward to celebrating 25 years of marriage and four kids--is all due to her late night sessions of praying the Rosary (along my Dad) just to make sure I made it home before a priest or policeman and/or worse, both.
She was a true loyalist: Even though she probably missed the Latin in the Mass very much, I never saw her complain once, not once, about the post-Vatican II changes. Even after I reached "adulthood" and I was at Mass with her and ever so slightly eased my fanny back to the pews, she'd have THE STARE ever ready to stiffen me up. ("If the Lord on that Crucifix up there could endure ... ")
I've seen other people become dissillusioned from watching someone they dearly loved die a painful death, and dying from liver cancer is a real tough battle, I actually came away stronger from watching her ordeal.
Prior to joining this forum, I didn't think the Church made Catholics like my mom any more. I was wrong. She makes them, and best of all, she's going to be making more of them because of the many converts who are coming through CHNI and organizations like this and this is the new wave of loyalist Catholics that'll breathe life back into her.
Get a hold of that St. Joseph's Latin/English 1962 Edition if you can. And don't go out buying any German copies. Besides, what's the German equal to "scuttlebutt"?
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
|
|
|
Current time is 11:54 pm | |
|
|
|
|
|
