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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Dec 16th, 2006 04:21 pm |
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By LAURIE GOODSTEINPublished: December 17, 2006
For about 30 years, the Episcopal Church has been one big unhappy family. Under one roof there were female bishops and male bishops who would not ordain women. There were parishes that celebrated gay weddings and parishes that denounced them; theologians sure that Jesus was the only route to salvation, and theologians who disagreed.
Now, after years of threats, the family is breaking up.
As many as eight conservative Episcopal churches in Virginia are expected to announce today that their parishioners have voted to cut their ties with the Episcopal Church. Two are large, historic congregations that minister to the Washington elite and occupy real estate worth a combined $27 million, which could result in a legal battle over who keeps the property.
In a twist, these wealthy American congregations are essentially putting themselves up for adoption by Anglican archbishops in poorer dioceses in Africa, Asia and Latin America, who share conservative theological views about homosexuality and the interpretation of Scripture with the breakaway Americans.
“The Episcopalian ship is in trouble,” said the Rev. John Yates, rector of The Falls Church, one of the two large Virginia congregations, where George Washington served on the vestry. “So we’re climbing over the rails down to various little lifeboats. There’s a lifeboat from Bolivia, one from Rwanda, another from Nigeria. Their desire is to help us build a new ship in North America, and design it and get it sailing.”
The above excerpt is reposted from the New York Times. The entire article is attached below or is available here.
Attachment: Episcopal Rift.pdf (Downloaded 2 times) Last edited on Sat Dec 16th, 2006 04:22 pm by
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JillD
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Posted: Sat Dec 16th, 2006 04:26 pm |
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More than 30 years, if memory serves... I was confirmed in the Episcopal church in 1965 and I remember my dad grumbling about the church's behavior even then. His dad had been an Episcopal priest and he was sure Dad was turning in his grave. I remember him being very unhappy about the bishop who came to do the confirmation. At the age of 10, I didn't know or don't remember what the issues were, but I did know my dad was not pleased.
Jill
P.S. I've been trying to get a handle on this. I hear people talking about attending "the Anglican church." What's with that? I thought that the Episcopal Church was the American branch of the Anglican church. Are they using the term "Anglican" because they're too embarrassed to admit to being Episcopalian?
Last edited on Sat Dec 16th, 2006 04:28 pm by JillD
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Dec 16th, 2006 04:29 pm |
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JillD wrote: More than 30 years, if memory serves...
I would say the Episcopal church has been in trouble since 1932, when it first set aside doctrine for popular decisions on matters such as birth control and abortion, but the real crisis began with the ordination of women to the priesthood, and if I'm not mistaken, that happened about 30 years ago.
P.S. I've been trying to get a handle on this. I hear people talking about attending "the Anglican church." What's with that? I thought that the Episcopal Church was the American branch of the Anglican church. Are they using the term "Anglican" because they're too embarrassed to admit to being Episcopalian?
The Anglican Communion is the international organization; the Episcopal church is the U.S. branch. At the time of the Revolutionary War, English things were not popular so the church in the U.S. was renamed. Today, I think it's safe to say those who use the term "Anglican" are doing so to maintain contact with Anglican traditions, and to separate themselves from the more liberal Episcopal church. So in essence, it seems they are too embarrassed to call themselves Episcopalian.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sat Dec 16th, 2006 05:42 pm |
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What I have seen, Jill, is that those parishes that have already seceded from PECUSA and have placed themselves under the jurisdiction of a foreign bishop, such as Bishop Akinola of Nigeria, have adopted the nomenclature of the parent body, which usually has the word “Anglican” in its title. Hence the use of the appellation.
The adopted arrangement does not prevent the same thing from happening again at some future date. The people involved in the secession are trying to preserve a tradition that they have grown up with. Short term they will probably succeed, but their grandchildren are going to see things differently based on changing values in the society around them, and the cycle will start again.
Also, the secessions are being drawn up in such a way that actual departure from the Anglican Communion is not happening. It is an “internal split.” How long can this be maintained? Sooner or later there is bound to be a power struggle, and the loser will find itself with the choice of submitting or leaving the communion.
So it looks to me like the internal “readjustment” will continue, and long term a definitive break-up is inevitable.
David
Postscript: Lest anyone wonder about the acronym PECUSA above, the denominational name when I was young was Protestant Episcopal Church in the USA. The word “Protestant” was quietly dropped in the 70’s. So now the correct acronym is ECUSA.Last edited on Wed Dec 20th, 2006 10:37 pm by David W. Emery
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Ruthie
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Posted: Sat Dec 16th, 2006 11:45 pm |
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There is such a thing as the Anglican Province of America. It is a group of churches in the US and Canada that broke away from the Episcopal Church in 1968 in protest over liberalism and reform. They kept the 1928 Prayer Book. They definitely call themselves Anglican as opposed to Episcopalian and are still very conservative and traditional. They are prolife, believe in the sanctity of marriage and male priesthood, and apostolic succession (which isn't true in the eyes of the Catholic Church.
It is confusing becuase it seems some Episcopalians refer to themselves as being in the Anglican tradition yet there is an American Anglican group which are not Episcopalians, and they are not under any other Anglican authority unless its Canterbury. I'm not sure.
Last edited on Sat Dec 16th, 2006 11:46 pm by Ruthie
____________________
Truly I tell you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will never enter it. (NRSV, Luke 18:17)
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Dec 17th, 2006 01:00 am |
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Ruthie wrote: There is such a thing as the Anglican Province of America.
I looked it up on Wikipedia and I'm still confused. It appears they are linked to the Anglican Church of Nigeria (and I guess from there to Canterbury), and have established intercommunion with the Reformed Episcopal Church of America, but still reject the teachings and doctrines of the REC. It just seems like another division, although this one claims to be "Catholic".
The APA is a merger of the ACA (Anglican Church of America) and the ACC (Anglican Catholic Church) with some congregations apparently not belonging to either, nor to the REC, and some apparently belonging to both.
It just seems like more Protestant-type denominationalism to me. You can read the Wikipedia article here. Maybe it will make more sense to you.
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JasPax
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Posted: Sun Dec 17th, 2006 01:49 pm |
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I was an Episcopalian for forty years, coming into the Catholic Church last Easter. From a high of three and a half million in the 1960's the denomination now claims only 2 million. There are about two dozen groups in the U.S. who called themselves Anglican- with bishops galore. Most broke away in the late 1970's over women's ordination, and other innovations they considered too liberal. When that breakup began the Episcopal Church bishops, clergy and delegates voted to transfer ownership of all parish property to the control of the local bishop. Now, with the ordination of V. Gene Robinson (a non-celibate homosexual) as bishop in 2003, many of the individual parishes which try to leave the denomination are losing their places of worship. That is especially hard for people whose ancestors bought the stained glass windows and mom and dad are in the columbarium. Not to mention the large endowments that many old parishes control, which many of the bishops would love to obtain. So, many membeers are just gritting their teeth and staying. As mentioned previously, many of the split-offs in the last three years are aligning themselves with Anglican bishops from Africa. How long will that last? Who knows.
My prayer is that those faithful Anglicans will take he time to learn what the Catholic Church is really all about and come home.
Have a blessed Christmas!
____________________
James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
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Darlene
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Posted: Mon Dec 18th, 2006 03:36 pm |
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Hello All,
I mentioned this article to my husband yesterday. I asked him if he thought I should send it to my mother-in-law. She is a loyal Episcopalian and said she would never leave the church of her upbringing. My husband said she might take it as an offense if I send her the article and then I'll have flack to deal with. Yet he said I should give it a try if I'm prepared for her to take offense. He has talked to her many times about the turning away from orthodoxy to a liberal slant within the Episcopal Church. However, I think there might be a way to do it in love.
I know that my mother-in-law is open-minded toward Catholics just from what I have heard her say. Recently she mentioned that a "good, Catholic family moved in next door to her." Anyway, I think if she could be convinced how wayward the Episcopal Church is, she might be drawn toward Catholicism. I think it's worth a try to at least send the article to her.
What do any of you out there think? How does one lovingly speak to a diehard Episcopalian about the serious errors that have arisen within its seminaries and church walls? Any suggestions out there?
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Mon Dec 18th, 2006 07:38 pm |
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Hello Again Darlene:
What do any of you out there think? How does one lovingly speak to a diehard Episcopalian about the serious errors that have arisen within its seminaries and church walls? Any suggestions out there?
I think that I would start by asking her how she feels about the changes, Just take an interest in her spiritual life. I'd show concern for her spiritual well being. Which I'm sure you are worried, considering these kinds of disappointments can really have an effect on our faith.
I don't know that I would begin by sharing my disapproval of her faith of choice. I'm sure she probably already knows how you & her son feel about her church.
I know how I feel when other family & friends bring up things they hear in the media about my faith, Sometimes it feels almost like a dig, in your face kind of thing. My heart is imediately on the defense. And much of the information in the media cannot be relied upon as a portrayal of the exact truth. If I see it happen with the Catholic Church I cannot help but think, or atleast give other christians the benefit of the doubt too.
I pray your mom-in-law continue here faith in Our Savior and her parish community not be rattled by the conflict. I've seen several older christians completely loose their faith when conflict & disunity and disappointments arise, I think it's a tragedy when some just give up and walk away.
Just my thoughts
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Mon Dec 18th, 2006 10:31 pm |
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Darlene, I have to agree with Betty here. Your earlier question about your husband was a different situation. He is questioning you, not the other way around.
By asking your mother-in-law’s opinion of the crisis rather than giving her yours, you allow her to find her own path instead of imposing yours. Later on, if she shows alarm about what is happening and wonders what she should do and where she should go, you can step in softly and provide some positive suggestions, beginning in generalities and becoming more specific only as she feels comfortable.
Just be aware that being positive rather than negative makes a huge difference to the recipient. It’s bad enough that her religious world is falling apart all around her. For you to rub it in is just too much.
David
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Darlene
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Posted: Tue Dec 19th, 2006 12:56 am |
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Thanks David and Betty - I know I can always get a "sound" answer here.
I just wish my mother-in-law would "see the light" in this regard. The Episcopalian church of her upbringing no longer exists.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Ruthie
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Posted: Tue Dec 19th, 2006 01:01 am |
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Hi Darlene,
I was Episcopalian for nearly 30 years. I had an evangelical beginning at 25 years old, then went to the Episcopal Church because my husband wanted me to. I don't think the Evangelical part of me ever left my heart.
Anyway, I think I would tread lightly with your mother-in-law. With all the changes in the EC I am sure she must be aware of what is going on, isn't she? Maybe you can just ask her if she is aware of these changes and ask how she feels about them rather than actually showing her the article. Is she a conservative person or a liberal person? If she's fairly traditional and conservative, is prolife, against gay marriage, against gay priests and bishops who are living the homosexual lifestyle, and uncomfortable with women priests and bishops, she may well be very disappointed and disillusioned. And then she might be quite willing to consider Catholicism. I guess I would address all this in casual conversation with a lot of empathy and care, addressing the issues slowly, casually, one by one.
As an Episcopalian, I became very frustrated that the EC seemed to be more of a warm and friendly social club that emphasized Christian service but had no doctrine, central beliefs, or authority, and woudn't take a stand on anything - esp. abortion which is such a horror to me. Then with all the above liberal leanings, I became thoroughly disgusted. At the same time, I was waking up to the fact that I was really Catholic after all and wanted wtih all my heart to come back to the Catholic faith. I had become Catholic for a while and then drifted away and went back to the EC. Now I'm back in the Catholic Church completely and for good this time. The EC seems to accept the premise that you can believe anything you want. How protestant of them.
I will pray that your mother-in-law be open to thinking about Catholicism as the better way.
Ruthie
____________________
Truly I tell you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will never enter it. (NRSV, Luke 18:17)
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crosstimbers
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Posted: Wed Dec 20th, 2006 07:08 pm |
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I am currently a member of one of the new Anglican churches in America. Our church was Episcopalian until October 1 when our priest and most of the congregation cut our ties with ECUSA . We are currently under the oversight of the Anglican Archbishop of the Southern Cone based in Argentina. We left our building, some of our friends and a church where most of us were baptized, married and buried our parents. It has been very difficult. There are several former ECUSA organizations that left the denomination over the years because of women's ordination and prayer book revision. None of these have ever been formally accepted by the Archbishop of Canterbury and so have no offical standing in the larger Anglican Communion. What the churches leaving now have done by putting them selves under foreign dioceses is to protect and demonstrate their desire to remain Anglican, but not Episcopalian. This is just a temporary solution until Canterbury and the primates do something more permanent. There is a meeting of the primates in Feb. which many believe will be a turning point.
As for the issues, the gay bishop was simply the proverbial straw. The leadership of ECUSA no longer believes in the authority of Scripture or Christ as the only way provided to God. Many reject the Virgin Birth and the bodily resurrection of Christ. This very plain if you read any of the interviews done recently with the newly elected Presiding Bishop, Kathryn Shori. ECUSA has been quietly slipping into apostasy for 40 years. Regretfully, many of us (including myself) thought that it was enough that our local parish was orthodox in its teaching. That it didn't matter what the leaders in New York did or said. And so by our passivity, we are also culpable.
But here is why I am considering the Catholic church....in the Anglican church there is no central authority that has the ablility or the will to discipline bishops and priests for teaching false doctrine. And in the case of the American church, our democratic polity makes it possible for laity and clergy to vote in heresy. So even if the current situation is resolved and ECUSA is disciplined and removed as the Anglican presence in the US, what is to stop history from repeating itself?
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Dec 20th, 2006 07:13 pm |
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crosstimbers wrote: I am currently a member of one of the new Anglican churches in America.
Welcome to CHN. Many former Anglicans have left the communion to join the Catholic Church, and a special liturgy called Anglican Use has been approved for their use. We're glad to have you with us, and if you have any questions about the Catholic faith, we'll do our best to answer them for you.
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crosstimbers
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Posted: Wed Dec 20th, 2006 07:23 pm |
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Thanks Rick! This last summer I was convicted that I needed to leave ECUSA and began reading and haunting the Catholic bookstore. I had no knowlege that anyone else in my parish (including my priest) was similarly convicted so when my priest suddenly announced he was leaving I was at a loss at what to do! Right now I am attending RCIA at my local Catholic church and working on the papers to file for annulment of my first marriage. I am still attending my Anglican church since I felt an obligation to support our priest and help get the new church on its feet. I guess I'm in a waiting mode.
Nancy
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Dec 20th, 2006 07:28 pm |
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I think there are many other members of the ECUSA who are in a similar situation. They feel that their church has abandoned them, and in many ways it has. Once authority and stability of doctrine are removed, it's just another Protestant church.
I know a great many Episcopalians are people of great faith in our Savior, and I hope the situation resolves itself quickly, but I'm afraid that's not going to happen. Meanwhile, the Catholic Church remains open and accepting.
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JasPax
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Posted: Fri Dec 22nd, 2006 12:42 pm |
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Dear Nancy,
When I knew I could no longer stay in the ECUSA, I investigated the possibility of moving to one of the Anglican groups. The fact that they are so split apart themselves into multiple provinces here in the U.S. was a big turn-off for me.
I looked at the Catholic Church as an, "alternative." Like any good Anglican, I began picking apart the various beliefs to see which I could accept. If, in my mind, I could accept enough, then maybe I could convert! Isn't that a very Protestant way of thinking?! I had to over come the usual Elizabethan prejudices that all Anglicans are taught. i.e., "The Catholic Church has 'added' too much; Rome should not claim to be the hub, it was just the most important city in the Roman Empire," etc.
Then, it finally dawned on me that this Church was where the Truth was all along. Now, as the saying goes, I believe in order than I may understand.
At my confirmation, I adopted St. Thomas More as my patron saint. Sir, you were right, I was wrong. My apologies.
Best Regards
____________________
James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Sat Dec 23rd, 2006 11:54 pm |
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Nancy: I'm glad you've come to visit with us! WELCOME and Merry Christ-mas.
Hope to see you around, And I'm sorry about your chuch.
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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crosstimbers
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Posted: Sun Dec 24th, 2006 12:16 am |
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Thanks Betty! Its nice to have a place to talk about all this. Happy Christmas to you too.
Nancy
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wmschrader
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Posted: Fri Dec 29th, 2006 01:31 pm |
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For those who might be intetested in more information about Anglican Use here is a web link: http://anglicanuse.org/
Also here is a link to an Anglican Use Rite Church (Our Lady of the Atonement) in the San Antonio area. http://www.atonementonline.com/index.php
____________________
Bill
Glory be to God for all things
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Sun Dec 31st, 2006 03:32 am |
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wmschrader wrote: For those who might be intetested in more information about Anglican Use here is a web link: http://anglicanuse.org/
Also here is a link to an Anglican Use Rite Church (Our Lady of the Atonement) in the San Antonio area. http://www.atonementonline.com/index.php
Hello Bill! It's nice to meet you.
Thank You for the links to the Anglican web sites.
May I just ask a question? I'm really not very familiar with Anglican Churches, I thought maybe you could give me just a short explanation if you don't mind.
Anglican & Episcapol (sp) The same except for their affiliation is either in another country or in the US?
Is one group more liberal than the other or does that change from Church to church, or eaches affiliation?(Sorry I don't think eaches is a word)
Do some Anglican churches call themselves Catholic? The one website really appears alot like a catholic web-site, For a moment I thought I may have been confused. And of course theirs a very big possibility that I still am.
Thank You in advance, I hope my questions are not offensive.
God Bless
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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JasPax
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Posted: Sun Dec 31st, 2006 08:49 am |
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Betty:
It can be confusing. You almost need a scorecard and rule book to understand it all.
Use Bill's link to Our Lady of the Atonement Parish in the Catholic Diocese of San Antonio; read their information and then click on their link to othe Anglican Use Parishes in the U.S. I think there are four in Texas and one in the Boston area. Under the Pastoral Provision granted by Pope John Paul II, these parishes retain some of the liturgy and tradition common to Anglican worship while remaining fully Catholic. There are none in my diocese - I regret that.
Most congregations in the U.S. which call themselves "Anglican" are not connected to the Catholic Church. Most are splits from the Episcopa Church; the last time I counted there were a couple of dozen separate groups across the U.S. There may be more now. They still use the Book of Common Prayer, either the 1928 version or the 1970's edition.
Best Regards,
____________________
James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Dec 31st, 2006 09:03 am |
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BettyBoopToo wrote: Thank You for the links to the Anglican web sites.
Just to clarify what JasPax said, Anglican Use is a fully Catholic rite permitted by Pope John Paul II on a transitional basis, to allow Anglican congregations which become Catholic to maintain significant portions of their liturgy while coming into full membership in the Catholic faith. They are no longer members of the Anglican Communion or the Episcopal Church, but are fully Roman Catholic. As with any rite within the Catholic Church, all Catholics are permitted to attend and receive sacraments (Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick) in an Anglican Use Roman Catholic Church.
Our Lady of the Atonement Catholic church offers a video of the Anglican Use liturgy as well as the Book of Divine Worship (a Catholic revision of the Anglican Book of Common Prayer) approved by John Paul II.
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Sun Dec 31st, 2006 03:24 pm |
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JaxPax & Rick:
Thank You both for clarifying that for me, I was not aware that |
