| Author | Post |
|---|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5024 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Sun Jun 3rd, 2007 10:36 am |
|
In its original meaning, a "public work" or service done in the name of or on behalf of the people. Through the liturgy Christ our High Priest continues the work of our redemption through the Church's celebration of the Paschal Mystery by which he accomplished our salvation (1067-1069).
(From the Glossary of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.)
The United States Catholic Catechism for Adults expands this definition on page 167:
The word liturgy comes from a Greek term meaning "public work or work done on behalf of the people." Liturgy always referred to an organized community. All the worshipers are expected to participate actively in each liturgy, for this is holy "work," not entertainment or a spectator event. Every liturgical celebration is an action of Christ the High Priest and of his Mystical Body, which is the Church. It therefore requires the participation of the People of God in the work of God.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church discusses the Liturgy of the Church in Part II, beginning at paragraph 1066.
The Church has many liturgies such as the Liturgy of Baptism, Liturgy of the Hours, etc. The best known liturgy is the central focus of Christian worship, known in the west as Holy Mass and in the east as the Divine Liturgy.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
Jackie
Member
| Joined: | Sat May 12th, 2007 |
| Location: | Jersey Shore, New Jersey USA |
| Posts: | 114 |
| First Name: | Jackie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jun 5th, 2007 03:25 pm |
|
I just read Scott Hahn's book , "Letter and Spirit" From Written Text to Living Word in the Liturgy.
In it, he helps us understand how Sacred Scripture and the Celebration of the Mass become the place where we, as active participants, partake in the Divine drama of salvation history. (roughly stated)
I had to look up a coupla words that were new to my ears but, uh, the reading was fabulous.
Just an additional observation  ...........................J
|
|
|
Darlene
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 877 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jun 7th, 2007 03:31 pm |
|
Jackie,
Would Hahn's book be good as an apologetics work in order to defend the Mass? I need some real help in understanding and defending the Mass and just what it means.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5024 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Thu Jun 7th, 2007 04:52 pm |
|
Darlene wrote: Would Hahn's book be good as an apologetics work in order to defend the Mass? I need some real help in understanding and defending the Mass and just what it means.
I think Hahn's The Lamb's Supper: The Mass As Heaven On Earth would probably be a better apologetics resource to defend the mass, perhaps in combination with his new book. I haven't read the new one yet, but since its description indicates that it is about the use of scripture in worship (the mass), it doesn't seem it would have the same apologetics impact since all Protestants use scripture in their worship as well.
The Lamb's Supper is about the scriptural basis of the Liturgy of the Eucharist, which all Protestants do not share with us, and so it seems like a better apologetics resource.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
Darlene
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 877 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jun 7th, 2007 05:44 pm |
|
CajunRick wrote: Darlene wrote: Would Hahn's book be good as an apologetics work in order to defend the Mass? I need some real help in understanding and defending the Mass and just what it means.
I think Hahn's The Lamb's Supper: The Mass As Heaven On Earth would probably be a better apologetics resource to defend the mass, perhaps in combination with his new book. I haven't read the new one yet, but since its description indicates that it is about the use of scripture in worship (the mass), it doesn't seem it would have the same apologetics impact since all Protestants use scripture in their worship as well.
The Lamb's Supper is about the scriptural basis of the Liturgy of the Eucharist, which all Protestants do not share with us, and so it seems like a better apologetics resource.
Believe it or not Rick, I recently finished reading "The Lamb's Supper" and while I found it very inspirational, I'm not sure I would use it in defense of the Mass with Protestants. I have watched Hahn's show on EWTN on Mon. nights which right now is coming from "Letter and Spirit." At times Hahn loses me but still it seems since he's been doing his series on this book, he uses quite a bit of symbolism, figurative language and scripture to show how the Old Covenent was paving the way for the New, which can be seen in the Mass.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
|
|
|
Jackie
Member
| Joined: | Sat May 12th, 2007 |
| Location: | Jersey Shore, New Jersey USA |
| Posts: | 114 |
| First Name: | Jackie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jun 7th, 2007 10:24 pm |
|
Darlene wrote: Would Hahn's book be good as an apologetics work in order to defend the Mass? I need some real help in understanding and defending the Mass and just what it means.
While I have not been called upon to defend the Mass perse, our local parish Priest gave us a copy of a diagram of the Mass. In it we were able to identify with the parts of the Mass and then penciled in areas for the where, why and hows. I found it very informative but I think he made that for us as a teaching tool for our ccd program. It was many years ago. I may still have a copy.
Letter and Spirit is more for the appreciation in deepening our understanding of the liturgy. Page 11 in chapter one, Scott Hahn states, "When I speak of liturgy, I mean the ritual public worship of God's covenant people." He uses words that are new to me, like mystagogy and economy. I found it a fascinating read but I would not use it apologetically.
The monday night show with Mike Aquilina is on the Letter and Spirit book. I read the book and follow along on the show as an addition helps for understanding.
Specifically, how to defend the Mass, lets see who comes along side us to answer this one.
Leaning on the cross..........................Jackie
|
|
|
NanaR
Member
| Joined: | Sat Jun 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 143 |
| First Name: | Ruth | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Born JW, born-again Catholic (Tiber Swim Team 2008) |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Jun 11th, 2007 07:20 pm |
|
Darlene wrote: Jackie,
Would Hahn's book be good as an apologetics work in order to defend the Mass? I need some real help in understanding and defending the Mass and just what it means.
Darlene
Darlene,
Just this past weekend I finished reading the book "Four Witnesses -- The Early Church in Her Own Words". One of the most fascinating parts of the book to me was the section about Saint Justin Martyr. In his first Apology, Saint Justin wanted to make clear to the Roman authorities exactly what the Christians did in their secret meetings (meetings that were, of course, secret due to the fact that Christians practiced their faith under threat of arrest, torture, and execution). So he outlined, step by step, the Order of the Mass as it was celebrated in 150 AD.
It was amazing to read his words. First, to realize how much courage it took for him to write them, identifying himself as a Christian for the purpose of the defending the faith. But the description of the Mass of 150 A.D. could well describe the Mass of our own day, with only small details of variation.
Mr. Bennett's book is historical but also apologetic in nature. The Appendix contains a cross reference between the Catechism and the writings of the Early Church Fathers.
I recommend it :-)
Ruth
____________________
When you bend down to help someone up, that is the best exercise for your heart. -- Fr. Noe, 2007
http://nanaruthann.blogspot.com
|
|
|
Credo Catholic
Member
| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1220 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Jun 11th, 2007 08:02 pm |
|
| Dear Ruth, I found "Four Witnesses" to be very helpful also in understanding the mass as it was celebrated in the beginning. I also like the connection it makes to the Jewish customs and ways of worship, the way mass seems to have evolved from there, with the celebration of the Eucharist being the turning point to Christian worship.
|
|
|
Robert
Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 12th, 2007 |
| Location: | Germany |
| Posts: | 67 |
| First Name: | Robert | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | The whole spectrum from black to white, now 100% Catholic! |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2007 06:32 am |
|
Although the literal meaning of the word Liturgy (Greek= λειτουργία / leitourgia), means “public work”, the understanding of the word goes much further.
All of the various forms of Liturgical practice have common dialogical elements, which are:
Katabasis: God descends / speaks to man (e.g. in the various readings)
Anabasis: man replies to God (e.g. Amen, Kyrie, Credo)
Diabasis: the transitus, the manifested conversion of man as a product of the dialog e.g. repentance from sin, dedication to God, or good works.
I find it very useful when preparing for any form of informal prayer e.g.:
a.) Short reading, Psalm etc.
b.) Meditation (listening and making room for the message).
c.) Reply e.g. prayer, hymn, question, or plead.
d.) Applying the experience to my life.
Last edited on Thu Dec 6th, 2007 06:33 am by Robert
____________________
Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3:15)
|
|
|
Pani Rose
Member
| Joined: | Fri Oct 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Irondale, Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 333 |
| First Name: | Rose | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Ruthenian Byzantine in a Melkite Greek Catholic Parish, raised ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Dec 8th, 2007 02:30 am |
|
If you can find a copy anywhere, possibley Madonna House, 'The Eyes of the Gospel' by Archbishop Joseph Raya is a really good one. But, it does come from the East, so that could make a difference in understanding for you. Another tool, to use to explain the Mass.
|
|
|
MichaelStEdmund
Member
| Joined: | Fri Dec 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 96 |
| First Name: | Michael | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Convert from pentacostal/charismatic/holiness background |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Mar 5th, 2008 02:36 pm |
|
NanaR wrote:
Darlene wrote: Jackie,
Would Hahn's book be good as an apologetics work in order to defend the Mass? I need some real help in understanding and defending the Mass and just what it means.
Darlene
Darlene,
Just this past weekend I finished reading the book "Four Witnesses -- The Early Church in Her Own Words". One of the most fascinating parts of the book to me was the section about Saint Justin Martyr. In his first Apology, Saint Justin wanted to make clear to the Roman authorities exactly what the Christians did in their secret meetings (meetings that were, of course, secret due to the fact that Christians practiced their faith under threat of arrest, torture, and execution). So he outlined, step by step, the Order of the Mass as it was celebrated in 150 AD.
It was amazing to read his words. First, to realize how much courage it took for him to write them, identifying himself as a Christian for the purpose of the defending the faith. But the description of the Mass of 150 A.D. could well describe the Mass of our own day, with only small details of variation.
Mr. Bennett's book is historical but also apologetic in nature. The Appendix contains a cross reference between the Catechism and the writings of the Early Church Fathers.
I recommend it :-)
Ruth
Ruth,
"Four Witnesses" is definitely one of my favorites.
A great follow-up to St. Justin Martyr's commentary on the Mass is St. Hippolytus of Rome's "Apostolic Tradition,"much of which is excerpted in Jurgen's first volume of "Faith of the Early Fathers." Or, you can read a translation of it online here:
http://www.bombaxo.com/hippolytus.html
An amazing amount of material that was "the ol' time religion" to Hippolytus in the second century is still part of the Mass today.
____________________
"Faith seeking understanding" - St. Anselm of Canterbury.
|
|
|
Parodyonlife
Member
| Joined: | Mon Jan 14th, 2008 |
| Location: | Corning, New York USA |
| Posts: | 113 |
| First Name: | John | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | NEW CATHOLIC!!! W( ) ( )T!!! |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Mar 10th, 2008 01:34 am |
|
Does anyone know Scott Hahn's Website?
____________________
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5024 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Mon Mar 10th, 2008 02:11 am |
|
Parodyonlife wrote: Does anyone know Scott Hahn's Website?
Start at http://www.scotthahn.com and you can go from there.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
Hidden One
Member
| Joined: | Thu Feb 28th, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 123 |
| First Name: | H1 | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | lax Presbyterian -> pseudo-Arminian non-denom -> heretical Presbyterian -> ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Mar 10th, 2008 06:04 pm |
|
The following site demonstrates that the Mass (Novus Ordo) is taken straight from Scripture, by placing beside many parts of it references from which those parts were (or might as well have been) taken. It's not an exhaustive list, but it's decent, and I'e found it useful in the past.
http://www.catecheticsonline.com/apologetics_mass.php
____________________
1 John 4:7-12
|
|
|
Jackie
Member
| Joined: | Sat May 12th, 2007 |
| Location: | Jersey Shore, New Jersey USA |
| Posts: | 114 |
| First Name: | Jackie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Mar 10th, 2008 09:35 pm |
|
http://www.catecheticsonline.com/apologetics_mass.php
Great Link Hidden One
OMGosh, I just noticed the new emo-cons to the right.....well that's neat too!
|
|
|
Current time is 08:13 pm | |
|
|
