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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Jan 6th, 2007 01:53 pm |
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History of Mardi Gras in New Orleans
By Becky Retz
The Times-Picayune
Mardi Gras, or Fat Tuesday, is the final day of Carnival, which begins on the Feast of the Epiphany, Jan. 6.
Also known as Kings' Day or Twelfth Night, Jan. 6 celebrates the arrival of the three kings at Jesus' birthplace, thus ending the Christmas season. And in New Orleans, simultaneously starting Carnival. This festival of fun finds its roots in various pagan celebrations of spring, dating back 5,000 years.
Pope makes it official
But it was Pope Gregory XIII who made it a Christian holiday when, in 1582, he put it on his Gregorian calendar (the 12-month one we still use today).
He placed Mardi Gras on the day before Ash Wednesday, the first day of Lent. That way, all the debauchery would be finished when it came time to fast and pray.
Much of the first part of the Carnival season is invitation-only coronation balls and supper dances hosted by private clubs known as krewes.
The public portion comes to life a couple of weeks before Mardi Gras when the krewes hit the streets, staging more than 70 parades in metropolitan New Orleans.
Mardi Gras arrived in North America with the LeMoyne brothers, Iberville and Bienville, in the late 17th century, when King Louis XIV sent the pair to defend France's claim on the territory of Louisiana.
America's first Mardi Gras
The explorers eventually found the mouth of the Mississippi River on March 3, 1699, Mardi Gras of that year.
They made camp a few miles upriver, named the spot Point d'Mardi Gras and partook in a spontaneous party. This is often referred to as North America's first Mardi Gras.
A couple of decades later, Bienville founded New Orleans and soon Carnival celebrations were an annual event highlighted by lavish balls and masked spectacles. Some were small, private parties with select guest lists, while others were raucous, public affairs.
Collectively, they reflected such a propensity for frolic in the local citizenry that historian Robert Tallant wrote in his book "Mardi Gras" that "natives would step over a corpse on the way to a ball or the opera and think nothing of it."
Parades officially began in 1838.
On Ash Wednesday of that year, The Commercial Bulletin read: "The European custom of celebrating the last day of the Carnival by a procession of masqued figures through the streets was introduced here yesterday."
Over the next 20 years, Carnival became an increasingly rowdy event defined by drunkenness and violence. Eventually, churches and even the press began to call for its demise.
In 1857, Mardi Gras found itself on the verge of death.
The birth of the krewe
Then along came Comus, which actually started 27 years earlier in the wee hours of Jan. 1, 1830 when a group of young men walking home after a New Year's Eve celebration in Mobile, Ala., passed a store featuring an outdoor display of rakes, hoes and cowbells. Making the kind of decision inebriated young men are apt to, they picked up the supplies and headed to the mayor's house where they caused a stir. An obviously patient man, the mayor sobered them up and, according to historian Buddy Stall, made the motley krewe's leader an offer.
"Next year," hizzoner suggested, "why not organize yourselves and let everybody have fun?"
Led by Michael Kraft, the group called themselves the Cowbellion de Rakin Society, paraded the following New Year's Eve, and was so successful that the procession became an annual event.
Now, jump ahead to 1857 when New Orleans city leaders were on the verge of canceling Mardi Gras for good. Six Cowbellions now living in the Big Easy proposed forming a new private club to present a parade based on a theme, with floats, costumed riders and flambeaux (torch carriers who lit the way) an orderly alternative to the chaos that Carnival had become. They chose the name Comus after the Greek god of revelry and coined the "krewe" appellation.
City leaders agreed and Comus was credited with saving Mardi Gras.
Then came the Revelers
It wasn't until after the Civil War that the second Carnival krewe made its debut in 1870. The new group chose Jan. 6 to present their parade and ball, naming themselves the Twelfth Night Revelers
Although they no longer parade, the Revelers' ball (along with the Kings' Day streetcar ride of the Phunny Phorty Phellows) marks the official start of the season.
During the Revelers' first fete, an innovation was brought to Mardi Gras -- a queen. Well, almost. After their tableau was presented, court fools carried out a giant king cake, the traditional pastry of the season, which contained a golden bean. The plan was that pieces of cake would be presented to a group of young ladies and the one who found the bean would be crowned Carnival's first queen. However, it seems the fools were drunk and instead of presenting the cake, they either dropped it on or threw it at the women. When the flour cleared, none of the appalled females would admit to having the bean. The first Carnival queen wasn't, until the next year.
By 1872, new troubles were brewing in the city. Post-war carpetbaggery had reached its zenith and rumblings of revolt against the city government could be heard. As Carnival approached, fears of masked reprisals surfaced.
Rex and the Grand Duke
Then came the diversion city leaders needed. News arrived that Grand Duke Alexis Romanoff Alexandrovitch, brother of the heir apparent to the throne of Russia, had accepted the city's invitation to attend Mardi Gras.
A plan was hatched. A new krewe of prominent citizens from both the government and its opposition would be formed and a king of all Carnival would be chosen. The group would call itself the School of Design and its ruler was to be Rex (Latin for king).
What no one knew was that the duke had accepted because his visit would coincide with the New Orleans opening of singer Lydia Thompson's touring musical, in which she performed a nonsensical ballad called "If Ever I Cease to Love." (Supposedly, she had also sung the number privately for the duke during a Big Apple rendezvous.)
When news of Thompson and the duke finally hit the grapevine, public interest in the visit grew. Mardi Gras morning found the duke sitting in the official reviewing stand as Rex atop a bay charger led 10,000 maskers in a line more than a mile long.
Among them were a number of bands, all of which broke into "If Ever I Cease to Love" as they passed the prince. The romance was ill-fated, but after 134 years, Rex remains King of Carnival and "If Ever I Cease to Love" is still the official song of the season.
Zulu makes merry
The oldest parading African-American krewe is the Zulu Social Aid and Pleasure Club, which first took to the streets in 1909. Not taking themselves as seriously as the staunch white krewes, the group dressed its king, William Story, in a sack and a crown fashioned from a lard can. A banana stalk was his scepter. Over the years, Zulu has become a perennial favorite and the krewe's gilded coconuts (painted gold and decorated with glitter) are one of the season's most prized throws.
By the 1950s, truck parades, composed of floats built atop flatbed trucks usually by families, had become well established. The late '60s saw the advent of the "superkrewes" Endymion and Bacchus, which broke with tradition by offering open memberships, larger floats and celebrity kings.
Carnival faced new challenges in the latter half of the 20th century. A 1979 police strike caused parades to be canceled in the city, but a number of them moved to the suburbs.
The City Council's anti-discrimination ordinance of 1988 called for krewes to open their ranks or get off public streets. In response, three of the four oldest krewes Comus (1857), Momus (1873) and Proteus (1882) took their floats and went home.
Rex remained and the other slots were filled. Proteus even returned in 2000 and the following year became the first krewe to parade in the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries.
In 2002, Mardi Gras was celebrated under the shadow of the 9/11 terror attacks. Because Super Bowl that year was delayed, the two weekends of Mardi Gras parades were split, with a weekend of parades, then Super Bowl weekend in New Orleans, and then the final long weekend of Mardi Gras. The celebrations took place with troops in the streets and warplanes circling overhead.
See Part 2 for Mardi Gras since Katrina!
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Jan 6th, 2007 01:54 pm |
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History of Mardi Gras since 2002:
After the devastation of Hurricane Katrina in 2005, Mardi Gras 2006 was in question. It can't really be canceled because it's not a public festival, but a collection of private events. The only real public involvement is the issuing of parade permits and police protection along the routes. Everything else is privately financed. But due to massive losses, many krewes were unable to parade due to their members' financial situations. (It costs a rider $1000 to $10,000 a year to ride, and krewe kings can spend $25,000 or more.)
The City of New Orleans, financially strapped and with depleted police and sanitation crews, decided it could handle an eight-day celebration spread over two weekends. Many krewes could not follow their traditional routes because of the devastation, some canceled, and others moved temporarily to the suburbs. But Mardi Gras became the turning point in the recovery. Families that had been spread throughout the country by the diaspora held reunions, and many came home to find friends and family they had not heard from since the storm and had feared dead. Churches reopened to make room for the reunited families, and the celebration became more significant than the typical Mardi Gras. If New Orleans could put on Fat Tuesday, it could recover.
Tourists stayed away, so it wasn't as big a financial boon as usual, but instead the family atmosphere that has always been an essential part of Carnival returned to center stage. We had a fabulous, family oriented celebration, and even locals were able to party on Bourbon Street, which normally only has room for die-hards, tourists, and the news media.
2006 will see the Mardi Gras parades expanded to 13 days, and additional parade routes are open. The police force is still depleted and the city is still financially strapped, so things won't be quite back to normal, but it will be an excellent year for tourists to come to New Orleans with lower prices, smaller crowds, and a friendlier, more traditional atmosphere.
It all begins tonight, the Feast of the Epiphany, the Twelfth Night of Christmas, with the cutting of the first King Cake, the first Carnival Ball of the Twelfth Night Revelers, and the riding of the streetcar by the Phunny Phorty Phellows (on an abbreviated route ... the streetcars are not yet fully operational).
Happy Carnival, Y'all!
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Talithacumi
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Posted: Wed Jan 10th, 2007 05:41 pm |
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Rick,
I hadn't gotten around to reading this 'til now. Very interesting piece of history! Thanks for sharing it. One question: what's it looking like for 2007? The last date that was mentioned was 2006, and I was just wondering how the Carnival was looking for this year... and also, do you attend often (or ever)? Just curious... I imagine you may have been there since you're close, but I also know that oftentimes people who live close to a major attraction never see it at all because they tend to think that since it's there close by they can go anytime, so they tend to go to other places when they have time for vacation or travel (the "Grass Is Always Greener Syndrome", I guess...).
JMJ
- Cheri
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Jan 10th, 2007 11:46 pm |
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Talithacumi wrote: One question: what's it looking like for 2007?
Very good. There are 30,000 hotel rooms available and there will be more krewes, more parades, more routes, etc. It's still not likely to be as crowded as it used to be, so it's an excellent year to visit.
do you attend often (or ever)?
Carnival is two months long and stretches from Lake Charles to Mobile, and north to Shreveport, so it's not exactly something you "attend". It's happening all around me. I do not usually go to the parades unless we have visitors from out of town. The local PBS station runs programming all day on the history of Mardi Gras, history of New Orleans, Mardi Gras in other communities, etc., and I prefer to stay home and watch them.
When we were younger and our daughter was small, we took her every year. As she got older, she marched in her school band, and we would go to the parades they marched in. Once she got old enough to not want us around anymore, it kind of lost its interest for us. I do still watch at least some of the parades on TV but after 40 years of attending and watching on TV, they're just not as exciting as they used to be.
Just curious... I imagine you may have been there since you're close, but I also know that oftentimes people who live close to a major attraction never see it at all because they tend to think that since it's there close by they can go anytime, so they tend to go to other places when they have time for vacation or travel (the "Grass Is Always Greener Syndrome", I guess...).
Actually, we've spent several vacations in Louisiana. One year we did the tourist thing in New Orleans, and another year we went to New Iberia and Lafayette. We've toured rice mills and Avery Island (where Tobasco Sauce is made), and been on swamp tours and taken tours of old plantation houses. We've sung at the piano bar at Pat O'Brien's, been to the Aquarium of the Americas and the Audubon Park Zoological Gardens, and been on the river boats. The only major attraction we haven't visited is the casinos, which don't interest me in the slightest. I've also been to Colorado, Minnesota, Wyoming, Nebraska, Texas, California, Ohio, West Virginia, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Washington DC, Georgia, Florida, Haiti, and England, and as beautiful and interesting as they all are, Louisiana is more beautiful and more interesting than any of them.
Last edited on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 11:49 pm by CajunRick
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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brian
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Posted: Thu Jan 11th, 2007 06:55 am |
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| if the church does endorse this season how do they feel about lot of the crude behavior that i have come to associate with mardi gras such as the drunkenness and public sexual behavior? I guess it is possible that there are perfectly legitimate mardi gras celebrations that are rich in culture, but what of the notion that it is ok to be as crazy as one wants since it is the last day before lent, as if sin is better or worse for you one day earlier or later? Should i view this season as a good thing or a bad thing? how do you defend the parts of it you like while being against some of the abuse it brings?
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Jan 11th, 2007 11:00 am |
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brian wrote: if the church does endorse this season how do they feel about lot of the crude behavior that i have come to associate with mardi gras such as the drunkenness and public sexual behavior?
Of course not. The behavior you describe takes place in a very small area in New Orleans, and all of us wish it would go away. That's not what Carnival is about, even though you may have come to associate it with Mardi Gras. We (the natives) simply don't go there. There are laws against public nudity and they are enforced, but with a million or so people crowded into a small area, it is impossible for the police to be everywhere at once. Undoubtedly you have the same type of behavior in Times Square on New Year's Eve, but more of it is found in New Orleans for Mardi Gras because it's warmer.
And it is not correct to say the Church "endorses" Carnival. The Church created it and allows it because the Church in our area understands what Mardi Gras is really all about, and it condemns sinful behavior at all times, even Mardi Gras.
I guess it is possible that there are perfectly legitimate mardi gras celebrations that are rich in culture, but what of the notion that it is ok to be as crazy as one wants since it is the last day before lent, as if sin is better or worse for you one day earlier or later? Should i view this season as a good thing or a bad thing? how do you defend the parts of it you like while being against some of the abuse it brings?
How do you defend sports championships when they often result in rioting and looting in cities such as Detriot? How do you defend the sale of alcohol when people get drunk and drive, and people die? How do you defend the sale of guns when people use them to kill each other? How do you defend the creation of new pain medications when people sell them on the street illegally? How do you defend the existance of banks when you know sometimes people will rob them? How do you defend the existance of self-service gas stations when you know some people will drive away without paying? How do you defend families when you know some people will abuse their kids? How do you defend marriage when you know some people will cheat on their spouses? How do you defend anything when you know some people will abuse it?
Carnival is a season that is rich in cultural heritage and meaning that a few people have chosen to abuse. Come to New Orleans but stay away from the few blocks of Canal Street near its intersection with Bourbon Street and Bourbon Street itself, or come to any of the hundreds of other communities that celebrate Mardi Gras, and what you'll see is families gathered together to enjoy the parades, and you'll see no nudity, little drunken behavior, and a whole lot of people with their parents and their children just enjoying life.
And stop believing the news media. They will tell you only the most sensational side of anything. If you don't believe me, come down and see for yourself.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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brian
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Posted: Thu Jan 11th, 2007 02:33 pm |
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| sounds fun.
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AD
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Posted: Fri Jun 22nd, 2007 05:21 pm |
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| Im not sure about the Mardi Gras having never gone but I have been to several carnival's in Ohio where the Catholic church was part of and along with the weeks event's of ride's and games they had what they called Los Vegas night in the church basement and they had beer keg's and and all kind of alcohol and everyone was was in the mode of party down. I thought it odd that the church would host that sort of event
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Darlene
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Posted: Fri Jun 22nd, 2007 05:49 pm |
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AD wrote: Im not sure about the Mardi Gras having never gone but I have been to several carnival's in Ohio where the Catholic church was part of and along with the weeks event's of ride's and games they had what they called Los Vegas night in the church basement and they had beer keg's and and all kind of alcohol and everyone was was in the mode of party down. I thought it odd that the church would host that sort of event
Ad, from what you are saying, I would have a problem with that too. Were the people actually getting drunk or just having a beer or two. I ask because I have had Christian friends over on New Year's Eve (all born again Evangelicals) and many have brough champagne and sparkling wine. We will have toasts throughout the evening but no one gets knock down dragged out intoxicated. In fact, I asked my daughter's boyfriend who is coming ove for dinner tomorrow to bring a bottle of sparkling wine with him.
Darlene
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Jun 22nd, 2007 09:24 pm |
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AD wrote: Im not sure about the Mardi Gras having never gone but I have been to several carnival's in Ohio where the Catholic church was part of and along with the weeks event's of ride's and games they had what they called Los Vegas night in the church basement and they had beer keg's and and all kind of alcohol and everyone was was in the mode of party down. I thought it odd that the church would host that sort of event
I have a problem with it, too. It is not part of Carnival in Louisiana.
In my diocese of Houma-Thibodaux, Louisiana, our bishop made a decision in 1985 that banned the sale of alcohol (including beer) at church functions effective immediately, all gambling (including bingo and raffles) effective in 1990, and all other fundraising activities such as church fairs effective in 1995. Since that time, the only way a church can raise money is through the collection basket and stewardship programs. Individual organizations such as the youth group may still conduct fund raisers to raise money for their own expenses, but they are not allowed to donate those funds to the church.
Community fairs were a big part of our Cajun culture, and I wish we were still allowed to have them to fund capital improvements only, but I support the decision to ban alcohol and gambling, and fund raising activities for ordinary church and school support. By the way, the ban has been kept in place by two subsequent bishops.
So don't think that activities such as the ones you described are in any way part of Carnival or part of the Catholic faith, and I will not even begin to attempt to justify them. I think the idea that a church would support such activities is beyond odd.
(Las Vegas Nights are usually not "real" gambling. People pay an admission price and are given a certain amount of play money that they play with, and at the end of the night, they use their play money to bid on donated items. They can't lose any real money besides their admission fee. Alcohol is usually sold at such events, and I choose not to participate in them. I don't gamble.)
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Sat Jun 23rd, 2007 12:54 am |
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| It took me awhile to get used to church events where alcohol is served, after being a Baptist where it is supposedly banned. Baptists would never drink at church, not even at a wedding reception. Our catholic church has dances, golf tournaments, dinners, etc. with open bars. I think if everyone is able to limit themselves fine, but there are always those who don't. Why did Jesus turn water into wine at the wedding at Cana, if not to enable the guests to enjoy themselves. I know it was a miracle and a forshadowing of the Holy Eucharist, but it was also a way of celebrating a happy event. Am I right or off base?!:?
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Jun 23rd, 2007 02:55 am |
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Credo Catholic wrote: Am I right or off base?!:?
I don't think the sale of alcohol is an appropriate way for a church to raise funds, but that is strictly my personal opinion. I have no objection to a drink or two at a social function but again, that's just a personal opinion.
A Cajun wedding reception is a huge party. I've been to wedding receptions in other places, and the Cajuns had to take over. 
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Sat Jun 23rd, 2007 10:48 am |
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| Okay, did you have a part in the "Steel Magnolias" wedding reception?!!
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Jun 23rd, 2007 11:37 am |
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Credo Catholic wrote: Okay, did you have a part in the "Steel Magnolias" wedding reception?!!
That took place in the beautiful town of Natchitoches (pronounced NAK-a-tish), home of the gorgeous Christmas lights festival, but it's in north Louisiana and is not at all a Cajun town. It's also the home of Northwestern Louisiana University, the Louisiana Scholars' College, and the Louisiana State School for Math, Science, and the Arts, a magnet school for top high school students. The French influence is strong there in the architecture, but the culture is much more southern than French. It is a wonderful place to visit. You can tell it's not Cajun country because they have hills.
And no, I did not have a part in the movie.
Last edited on Sat Jun 23rd, 2007 11:43 am by CajunRick
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Rick Luquette
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Sat Jun 23rd, 2007 12:06 pm |
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| I know this is a little off topic, but what is the difference between Cajun and Creole, are they both catholic? S.C. has a French Huguenot history that I always assumed was catholic but recently learned they were french protestants who came here searching for religious freedom.
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AD
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Posted: Sat Jun 23rd, 2007 12:27 pm |
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Thanks for those responses, The time line was back in the mid 80's as I recall. I think the reason it was a bit un-nerving to me was I was not raised around the church and the only people who I knew that even claimed to have association with the church were people who claimed to be catholic and /or married into the church thru a spouse. When I accepted Jesus as my LORD, I was born again (late aug. 1979) and received the Holy Spirit and started reading the bible and discovered it told me to be baptized (with water, identifieying with the death,burial and resurrection of our LORD and I made that priority 1. I was so in Love with the LORD (and still am) that I could not get enough of His word or fellowship. None of the people I knew who claimed to be catholic even bothered to go to church except Easter and Christmas and their life gave 0 evidence of even having a clue to the witness of the Holy Spirit. I believed in GOD and Jesus all my life and had said the sinners prayer several times and I was not born again. It was all head belief and was on my way to hell in a hand basket as they say. I am NOT SUGGESTING People who believe the Catholic Church is the only True church act the way the people I knew. They were the only ones I knew at the time. I am saying I found it a bit odd to see the church sponcer these events because they reminded me a lot of how I lived before I came to the cross of our LORD JESUS CHRIST and lost my old life and received a brand new one. Yeshua was Jewish, All the Apostle's were Jewish and 99.9% of the Church beginning at Pentecost were Jewish. They were called Bishops,(English word) not pope's in the beginning and there were many Bishops that headed up congregations in many city's and the Greek Orthodox Church (more in number then the catholic church I believe) have kept the Bishop order and rejected the 1 pope system. The Jewish people who have received YESHUA as Messiah has not embraced the 1 Pope system and they after all was entrusted to keep the BOOK from the beginning of time. As I make my journey home and share in fellowship with the people I meet in the nursing homes I am trying to understand why people of the Catholic Church believe that after 300 or 400 years (?) of Many Bishops in operation, you have a group who go off in another direction and declare it is the ONLY TRUE CHURCH. ( im aware of the scripture of great debate, ie- peter being called petra, little lock and upon this ROCK (big rock) I will build this church). Enough for this one , Im rambling, LOL I never tell people I visit with that they are wrong for what they believe. I minister out of love and share out of love and agree and disagree with them in love. We have a great time in fellowship thru CHRIST ( the anointing).
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Sat Jun 23rd, 2007 01:56 pm |
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Credo Catholic wrote: I know this is a little off topic, but what is the difference between Cajun and Creole, are they both catholic? S.C. has a French Huguenot history that I always assumed was catholic but recently learned they were french protestants who came here searching for religious freedom.
In the 1700's, when England took control of Canada, French Catholics in the area known as Acadia (modern-day Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island) were forced to swear allegiance to the king of England as head of the Church, renouncing their Catholic faith. Those who refused were either killed or expelled, and many were jammed into boats with nowhere to go. This is known as the "Acadian Odyssey". They had little food and water, and no destination. Some tried to return to France. Some landed in portions of the "Colonies" which was still under English control, and many continued to the nearest French territory, Louisiana. They settled in the area around Lafayette and dispersed into the swamps, where they learned to hunt, fish, and trap. They became fiercely independent and intensely Catholic, which we remain today.
You can read an excellent history of the Acadians at this web site which is written for teachers to present the history of the Acadians and "le Grande Derangement", the story of the Odyssey of my ancestors.
Creoles are of Caribbean descent, primarily Haitian, and are dark skinned. (Creole is one of the two official languages of Haiti today.) "Creole" is one of the cultural elements of New Orleans, along with Cajun, French, Spanish, African and American. And yes, both Cajuns and Creoles have a Catholic heritage.
The cultures and cuisine are quite different. Mardi Gras in New Orleans is a French celebration that has been converted into a Creole-style party. In the purer French areas such as Lafayette, it is much more family and community oriented. There are certainly people who drink too much, but alcohol is not part of the celebration in most of the places where Mardi Gras is celebrated. It's more of a Caribbean and South American addition. Carneval in Brazil is a different kind of celebration than Mardi Gras in Mamou, and the street celebrations in New Orleans have elements of both cultures. There is also a "high society" element as the Mardi Gras balls serve as "coming out" celebrations for debutantes and a chance for the wealthy notables of society to show off their daughters.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5024 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Sat Jun 23rd, 2007 02:05 pm |
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AD wrote: Yeshua was Jewish, All the Apostle's were Jewish and 99.9% of the Church beginning at Pentecost were Jewish. They were called Bishops,(English word) not pope's in the beginning and there were many Bishops that headed up congregations in many city's and the Greek Orthodox Church (more in number then the catholic church I believe) have kept the Bishop order and rejected the 1 pope system. The Jewish people who have received YESHUA as Messiah has not embraced the 1 Pope system and they after all was entrusted to keep the BOOK from the beginning of time. As I make my journey home and share in fellowship with the people I meet in the nursing homes I am trying to understand why people of the Catholic Church believe that after 300 or 400 years (?) of Many Bishops in operation, you have a group who go off in another direction and declare it is the ONLY TRUE CHURCH. ( im aware of the scripture of great debate, ie- peter being called petra, little lock and upon this ROCK (big rock) I will build this church).
You obviously have some misconeptions about the history of the papacy and its institution, and also the beliefs of the Orthodox Churches in the primacy of the See of Peter.
We have discussed some of these questions before in our "Magisterium" forum, which is all about the authority of the Church. Rather than repeat here, I would encourage you to look over the posts in that forum, and then ask questions and post comments there.
Briefly, however, let me answer that the Orthodox accept the primacy of Rome as the apostolic see that is "first among equals"; that the office of the Pope is unbroken from the time of Peter; that the big rock/little rock argument disappears in the original Aramaic language where Jesus called Simon "Kepha" (which St. Paul says is rendered Cephas) and said on this "kepha" he would build his Church.
We look forward to a discussion of the office of the pope, or anything else you'd like to ask about. Your concerns deserve a full response and discussion, and that's really not appropriate for a casual thread about Mardi Gras.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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AD
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| Joined: | Thu Jun 21st, 2007 |
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| First Name: | AL | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Baptist Pentacostal Non Denominational |
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Posted: Sat Jun 23rd, 2007 08:25 pm |
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| Thanks Rick, I will check that out. Your right of course about the Mardi Gras thread thing
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