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Darryl
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| Joined: | Sat Jul 26th, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Darryl | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | United Church of Canada, Alliance, Independant Charismatic, Pentecostal |
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Posted: Sat Aug 9th, 2008 08:34 pm |
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Hi there,
3 weeks ago my church where I am currently associate pastor, had a baptism service. We saw 10 people enter into the waters of baptism. This may be my last baptism service, as I'm sure that half of the people I have 'baptized' over the years were ex-catholics. Many however in our society today have no church background and are really "new" converts. It is exciting to tell people how to read the bible and pray when they have no conception of how to do this.
Here is my quandry. I have now contacted my local parish, and indicated interest in RCIA. In the rural district where I live, there was no RCIA last year. In fact there was only 1 convert and that because of marriage. I am becoming convinced of the Catholic Churches, but I am worried for my own spiritual health as well as my decendants (I have 7 kids). I would tell people as a pastor that a healthy church grows. Am I going to lose my passion? Am I going to lose the deep love I have for my Lord? Are my kids, and grandkids going to leave the church because they are not being fed? Then I will have to worry about them not going to heaven, because they left the church.
I also have trouble with this. I work with men in addiction. Many of them come to Christ(Probably 90%). Almost all of the men have committed mortal sin. Yet there is a real life change in them. They exude such joy, love, and peace. I cannot understand how they could go to hell. Since my first 'sprinking' baptism at 13, I have committed mortal sin since I came back to Christ at 19.(Dunked at 22) (I am 30 now.) How could I go from moment to moment fellowship with my Lord on this side of life, and then enter hell after death. My wife has trouble with this too. She says so all the 'Mafia guys' are closer to going to heaven because of the sacraments then all the Godly men and women who have committed mortal sin, repented and all living for him?
How could my children who love God, and do their own devotions, enter hell because they have not been baptized. Thus all the families I know on fire for Christ in the evangelical tradition would see all their kids go to hell because they do not baptize before the age of accountability.
My apologies if this is too much too the point. If God wants me to go to the Catholic church he must have a great purpose, or else I am deceived. Why do I feel compeled to go from a church with much fruit where I am pastor, to a church that I do not see much fruit from. (In Canada). People are jokingly saying to me, at least you can do whatever you want now. Just go to confession.
God bless you, thank you for tolerating me on this forum. Please know I am earnestly seeking answers. Understand I come here with respect. I know I can ask the main office, which I may do, but I also wanted to see what you would say.
Thanks,
Darryl.
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Aug 9th, 2008 10:21 pm |
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I have committed mortal sin since I came back to Christ at 19.… How could I go from moment to moment fellowship with my Lord on this side of life, and then enter hell after death.
Another terrific question, Darryl.
To begin with, Catholic doctrine recognizes that a person who is truly repentant is inwardly transformed. In the context of baptism, we call this change “regeneration.” In the context of post-baptismal forgiveness, we call it a “return to the state of grace.” For each of these there is a sacrament: Baptism, of course, and Penance (also known as Reconciliation or Confession).
If one returns to sin after regeneration or return, such sin will either be mortal, cutting off all life of grace within the person — or venial, in which case the life of grace is wounded but not dead. A person merits hell after committing a mortal sin, but remains saved if the sin is venial. All sin has consequences (which is why we speak of penance on earth and purgatory hereafter), but not all sin will land you in hell.
Now it is also true that there are different attitudes and circumstances when a person is drawn into sin. Sometimes a person does evil intentionally, out of an evil heart. If it is a grave matter (something really serious), a sin committed in this manner will be mortal. But often this is not how a person sins. There are motives of weakness and inadversion wherein, even if the matter is grave, the guilt is only venial because the person did not fully consent. Victims of addiction and seduction often behave in this way. They fall out of weakness, not because of an evil heart. Only if they give up the fight against evil do they lose the war that rages within them.
Additionally, you allude to the common criticism, “You can sin with impunity, then just go to confession and everything is forgiven.” It doesn’t work like that. There’s no play-acting with God; one has to be truly repentant and have a firm purpose of amendment to be forgiven. But at least our Lord provides a sacrament for the times we have played the fool. Non-Catholics have to take pot luck; Catholics can hear the absolution and be certain, in their repentance, they are saved.
The bottom line in all this is that the Lord knows what is in your heart. He will judge you on this, not merely on externals. King David committed many sins throughout his life, some of them serious (adultery and murder come to mind, in the incident with Bathsheba), yet he is considered a saint by both Jews and Christians because, in the end, he did repent.
I also have trouble with this. I work with men in addiction. Many of them come to Christ (probably 90%). Almost all of the men have committed mortal sin. Yet there is a real life change in them. They exude such joy, love, and peace. I cannot understand how they could go to hell.
In this you see a combination of weakness and repentance. While there is such a thing as “getting religion” to put on a good front, I would agree with you that the majority of these men want to break free of their addiction and live normal lives.
God’s forgiveness is a huge release which gives them the confidence they need to turn their lives around. I’ve seen this very change in a number of addicts. In fact, I know someone who is currently going through rehabilitation as a result of God’s grace and forgiveness. Not all are successful in conquering addiction, but so long as they keep trying, I think we can be confident that they are saved.
I would tell people as a pastor that a healthy church grows. Am I going to lose my passion? Am I going to lose the deep love I have for my Lord? Are my kids, and grandkids going to leave the church because they are not being fed? Then I will have to worry about them not going to heaven, because they left the church.
The Israelites had to wander through the desert 40 years before they were allowed to enter the Promised Land. Yes, in leaving Egypt, they were no longer slaves. But every step of the way there were obstacles, wars, sins and consequences. Yes, there were casualties in the desert. Not everyone made it through; Moses himself did not live to cross the Jordan. But eventually they did cross it — dry shod, just as when they crossed the Red Sea.
Salvation is a journey through the desert, Darryl. We have been given a lifetime to make it to the other side. You have to follow your own conscience; you cannot speak for others, for they will be judged separately.
Yes, as a father you have responsibilities to and for your minor children. Eventually, however, they will become adults and will have to accept responsibility for themselves. You need not overestimate your guilt in their formation if you are called to “go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you,” for according to God’s promise, “I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing” (Genesis 12:2–3). You can be sure that there were those who went with Abram who did not see the son of the promise. Abram himself — now called Abraham to denote his special relationship with the Lord — was told that he must sacrifice that son, returning to the Lord what he had given him, including, if need be, the promise itself. But in the end, Isaac was spared and continued the line of the patriarchs, until the day when his descendant Mary gave birth to the Messiah.
God bless you, thank you for tolerating me on this forum.
We not only tolerate you, Darryl. We are positively honored to be able to serve you. We always advise clergy who come to the forum that, unlike the forum area, which is public, correspondence the main office is completely confidential, and the people in the office are specially equipped to help clergy like yourself. Still, if you find the forum beneficial and are not bothered by the lack of confidentiality, we are at your service.
David
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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Sun Aug 10th, 2008 12:24 am |
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I understand your questions and concerns. However, I think maybe you are getting caught in technicalities. While someone with access to the sacrament of confession should make use of it, I do not persoally believe that those who through no fault of their own are not aware or fully able to participate somehow lie without hope of forgiveness for their sin. I may have sinned mortally before I entered the Catholic Church, but by the grace of God I always asked for forgiveness and found that in time I did continue to grow in intimacy and desire to obey God. I wil not say exactly what was going on or when or how I was forgiven or not prior to my first cnfession, only that there is no absolute reason to assume that these addicts or your children will be condemned. God will judge fairly and mercifully. He will not ask more from us than we were able to give.
My fiancee is about to make her first confesion. While I trust that sacramentally it will provide her with a new grace and assurance of forgiveness, I can see that she was has been given a deep faith and repentance for sins before this happened, and trust that the Holy spirit indeed abides in her. We can not say how the Holy Spirit dwells or dos not dwell with non-Catholics, but I believe that He does and may provide graces to make up for what they lack or where they are ignorant of truth "through no fault of their own." Still, I love knowing for sure, and the Catholic Church gives us the gift of that assurance of forgiveness, and it is always a little scary to not know which people who deny the faith do so "through no fault of their own"so we continue to pray and evangelize. So I am not just saying all non-Catholics can just as easily find forgiveness and live Christian lives. Just that I imagine that it is possible, and that it is not for us to assume that any individual is not in a state of grace.
Really I am not the one who knows (only God does) and I hope I am not speaking anything inconsistent with our faith.
Of course a Catholic is expected to do what he or she can do to fully participate and to encourage others to know the beaty and truth of the faith. I believe that with Jesus and the saints and his mother and especially the Eucharist you will maintain a good amount of fervor for your Lord. I think it may be challenging and possibly at times lonely (but God can provide fellowehip himself or help you find others who will help you as a Catholic or be willing to work with you) but ultimately perhaps you are to bring a strong zeal to those who need strong encouragement and exhortation and conversion inside the Church (though maybe not so much right away, but who am I to say how God may use you).
I will say that Cathoic spirituality tends to be a little less emotional in one sense, yet entirely fervent. One will find all sort of prayers and devotions devoting oneself to holiness and tranfomation and seeking to avoid sin. We should be wanting to please God always and in every way and this is what any Catholic should feel drawn toward. But I have found it is more about finding God than about feeling good about something. There are times when the consolations are as great or better than any I knew in my other backgrounds. And there are times where it seems less "exciting." Then there are times where the emotions may be less, yet the internal peace is far greater than any feeling I could have wanted. Also, times where being Catholic is difficult to understabnd or adjust to and I lack peace. But here the problem is more my own or a lack of understing, or persoanl failure.
I think Catholic spirituality is more about losing self and finding God in stillness and letting go of atachments. It can be dry or lack an element of fun. But at times it leads you to understanding the simplicity and beaty of everything all around you because you are less attached to it. Anyway, this will differ form person to person and all our journeys are unique even if our goal is the same goal of deeper abiding intimacy with the Holy Trinity. There are also charismatic Catholics and Catholics on fire for their faith in that way. So I think you will find something for yourself and a lot to challenge you. But at times, it can be difficult as well and a bit of an adjustment. I will not lie. But God will help you learn. Overall, I feel that it has ben challenging, but given me more than I previously knew or understood.
Sorry for rambling. I have had the same concern about children. I and my fiancee have converted to the Catholic Church. Some of our friends or family may find this troubling or worry that we have left the simplicity and truth of the gospel behind. Then I think, well what if my children go the other way? It would almost be worse because they started out in the Church. But we musn't think or worry like this, simply pray and lead a godly example and teach the best we can.
I truly hope that if your children or my future children left the church that they would be doing so not fully understaning what they were doing and somehow not be fully responsible or helbound. I am hoping some of the ex-Catholics you unfortunately have baptized may have left he church not fully aware of how necessary and important that the church actually is for their salvation. I have hope that they may still make it to heaven and realize that they were still somehow mystically invisible members of the church that they thought they wanted to leave.
Meaning, we can not say for sure what happens to anybody. My point being that you have to trust God with your kids and do what is right for you when you are ready and able to discern what that is. God will take care of your kids, but they are also responsible to work out their salvation. There is a long way to go and always chance that most any of us could fall or return. But if the church is the truth and they see it and experience it they will be thanlful for the rest of their lives to have ben able to enter it and want to raise gnerations to come of godly Catholic Christians. Really, we can not say. We pray and actin faith and trust god for the rest. All the best to you.
Brian
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lakeview
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| Joined: | Mon Jan 1st, 2007 |
| Location: | North Salem, New York USA |
| Posts: | 13 |
| First Name: | Brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic to Southern Baptist to Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Aug 10th, 2008 01:19 am |
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Darryl wrote: Am I going to lose my passion? Am I going to lose the deep love I have for my Lord? Are my kids, and grandkids going to leave the church because they are not being fed? Then I will have to worry about them not going to heaven, because they left the church.
This is a natural concern. Remember that "God is love" as St. John tells us. Your worry about this is, I think, a good sign. People who are concerned about losing faith at least have a faith to lose! God is with you. Read Psalm 37.
Almost all of the men have committed mortal sin. Yet there is a real life change in them. They exude such joy, love, and peace. I cannot understand how they could go to hell. Since my first 'sprinking' baptism at 13, I have committed mortal sin since I came back to Christ at 19.(Dunked at 22) (I am 30 now.)
Mortal sin requires that the sin be serious, that the person knows it's serious and gives full consent of his will in doing it. Many today don't have an adequate understanding of sin. People dealing with addictions often will be in position to give full consent. Moral theology can be confusing. On of the reasons for sacramental confession is to help the pentitant learn how to discern when sin is mortal or not.
How could I go from moment to moment fellowship with my Lord on this side of life, and then enter hell after death. My wife has trouble with this too. She says so all the 'Mafia guys' are closer to going to heaven because of the sacraments then all the Godly men and women who have committed mortal sin, repented and all living for him?
Even after mortal sin, a person still has God's natural grace to draw on. They are like a person who has not been converted. God still loves them. They may still have faith. But they have lost God's sanctifying grace. Sacramental confession will restore this completely. For those outside of the Catholic Chruch, remember that God is merciful. He is not limited in his forgiveness to Confession. The Church recongizes the possibility of making a perfect act of contrition. Think of David's sin. Psalm 51 is David's act of contrition, and I think it's a great example of a perfect act of contrition as I've seen!
As for the 'Mafia Guys', don't get your theoology from 'The Godfather 1,2 or 3', especially 3!  God is not mocked!
How could my children who love God, and do their own devotions, enter hell because they have not been baptized. Thus all the families I know on fire for Christ in the evangelical tradition would see all their kids go to hell because they do not baptize before the age of accountability.
God is not unjust. People such as these are following God as best they know how. Now, if someone became convinced that the Catholic Church teaches the fulness of they truth and that they should become Catholic and then reject this truth, they are in great danger of hell. In the meantime, trust in the Lord.
If God wants me to go to the Catholic church he must have a great purpose, or else I am deceived. Why do I feel compeled to go from a church with much fruit where I am pastor, to a church that I do not see much fruit from. (In Canada). People are jokingly saying to me, at least you can do whatever you want now. Just go to confession.
I'd have to say that the Catholic Church has produced much fruit over the years. Look at the lives of the saints. The church until the Reformation was Catholic!
As to 'do what ever you want now', I say again God is not mocked. Repentance and contrition must be genuine or there is no sacramental forgiveness!
Brian
Edited to fix formattingLast edited on Sun Aug 10th, 2008 01:47 am by
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Brian
http://denythecat.blogspot.com
http://latevocationsrc.blogspot.com
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tedjenczewski
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| Joined: | Thu May 10th, 2007 |
| Location: | Richmond, Virginia USA |
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| First Name: | Ted | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Presbyterian, revert Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Aug 10th, 2008 02:55 am |
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| God bless you Darryl.. Your questions are addressed very well by former evangelical Bruce Sullivan in his book "Christ in His Fullness", particularly in Chapter 18 on Salvation.The chapter begins with Hebrew's 12:11-14 in which the baptized or enlightened believer is instructed to "Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord". The believer must both "work" towards holiness and he must actually attain it to be saved. Starting here all of Catholic doctrine regarding initial justification, falling away, the presence of sinners in the visible church, works and merits, mortal and venial sins, penance, and purgatory are seen to be clear and consistant with both scripture, and the teaching and practice of the early church Last edited on Sun Aug 10th, 2008 03:58 am by tedjenczewski
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"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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Darryl
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| Joined: | Sat Jul 26th, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Darryl | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | United Church of Canada, Alliance, Independant Charismatic, Pentecostal |
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Posted: Sun Aug 10th, 2008 03:26 am |
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Hello again,
Ok I have so much peace right now. I just did the Rosary along with Mother Angelica on EWTN. I haven't ever done it with others. I want to thank you all for your replies. I guess I am focusing a little on the parts and not the whole.
I understand better. God in his grace only knows if the sin in mortal. I think in my teens I probably willfully committed acts of evil, but maybe I acted in some sense of ignorance. Reconciliation is indeeed a benefit.
In regards to confidentiality I am not concerned anymore. At one point I was worried that some would find out, but I am at the point that like you(David) said regarding Isaac, we need to offer sacrifice at times. This is one thing that has always appealed to me about the Catholic Church, suffering and sacrifice. God is molding us. This has been an incredibly hard time for my wife and I, but God has not left us, rather he has chose to bless us through this our suffering.
Brian you are right about the passion in worship. I was meditating before the tabernacle the other day at a chapel by the mission where I work, and I was overwhelmed by God. I am a Pentecostal, and I will probably seek out other Pentecostal/Charismatics when I come home. I am however charismatic, and not crazy. I believe in the gifts of the spirit to be used in a service in a fitting and orderly way. (Is there a time for words of prophecy/tongues/interpretations during the liturgy?)
In regards to my children, they are 12 and under. I guess I am little bit protective of them. I guess the scripture which talks of God's love to a 1000 generations of those who love him would come into play.
I think that if the Catholics get on fire for the Lord, powerful things will happen in this world. The protestants are missing the mother of their faith. Thank God for you people.
Even though this in an online community it is nice to have fellowship on this sometimes lonely(lonliness is good at times) journey. Thanks for your help, and God Bless you on your journey.
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sewnsew
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 905 |
| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Anglican, Episcopal /Catholic-04/07/07 |
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Posted: Sun Aug 10th, 2008 03:22 pm |
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| Daryll, my kids were 14 and 15 when I becaome Catholic- it has not been easy for them- If I had it to do again I would become Catholic WHILE my kids were younger(your childrens' ages) That way they will grow up into their teenge years in the Church, attending Catholic youth groups and bonding with Catholic teenagers. My daughter's hardest issue is potential rejection by the kid's in her youth group. She is still going to that youth group as part of the agreement we made during my conversion. She didn't really get active in the youth group until she was almost 14 and had we moved while she was younger she would hav happily joined the youth group at our Cahtolic church.
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Intercessor
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| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Southcentral, Kentucky USA |
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| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Aug 10th, 2008 04:01 pm |
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Darryl wrote:
Hello again,
. . . God is molding us. This has been an incredibly hard time for my wife and I, but God has not left us, rather he has chosen to bless us through this our suffering.
. . . Even though this in an online community it is nice to have fellowship on this sometimes lonely(lonliness is good at times) journey.
Hello, Darryl,
I'm so glad you are still "with us." Your docility, humility, and thirst are a blessing to others.
Forgive me if I was too hard on you about the loneliness aspect of this journey (in another thread). If it's of any comfort, I at least wrote as one who is very familiar herself with the sufferings and joys of the lonely road. Some days I think I cannot bear it; other days I marvel at the sweet provision and blessing from the Lord to endure and grow.
God has rather systematically "removed" from my life the persons with whom I enjoyed intimacy and/or received counsel. I need to heed the words I wrote you, Darryl, about going alone with God into the desert, for a time. God can be a very jealous Lover, and some of us need to learn what only aloneness with the Lord can teach.
Pray for me, dear brother, as I pray for you. Our journeys continue, and God is merciful. May He be praised.
Grace and peace,
Becky
Last edited on Sun Aug 10th, 2008 05:01 pm by Intercessor
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Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials. . .the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Blessed is the man who perseveres in temptation, for when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life. . . NAB James 1:2-4,12
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NorthStar
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| Joined: | Sat Mar 15th, 2008 |
| Location: | Wisconsin USA |
| Posts: | 105 |
| First Name: | Chuck | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Roman Catholic, Evangelical, Orthodox |
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Posted: Sun Aug 10th, 2008 05:53 pm |
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Darryl wrote: . My wife has trouble with this too. She says so all the 'Mafia guys' are closer to going to heaven because of the sacraments then all the Godly men and women who have committed mortal sin, repented and all living for him?
How could my children who love God, and do their own devotions, enter hell because they have not been baptized. Thus all the families I know on fire for Christ in the evangelical tradition would see all their kids go to hell because they do not baptize before the age of accountability.
The Orthodox have a saying (and I know the Catholics will agree) we may be bound by the Sacraments, but God is not!
if God is God, then He gets to save whoever He wants. I know the Catholic Catechism has many points about what you asked, but I'll my Catholic brothers and sisters answer with those quotes, since they all know where to find everything in there! 
Chuck
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