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amielou
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| Joined: | Sat Oct 18th, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 33 |
| First Name: | Amy | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian (Disciples of Christ), Evangelical Free, RCIA |
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Posted: Sat Oct 18th, 2008 05:10 pm |
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One of my best friends is an Evangelical, a member of a Vineyard church. She is supposed to be the maid of honor in my wedding next summer. She has given all kinds of lip service to being supportive of my conversion (which was a long time coming and is not just because I am getting married), but anytime anything comes up about the Church, she gets argumentative with me.
The first issue was when I told her about having our first marriage prep app't with our priest and the different things we'd be doing --FOCCUS and Engaged Encounter etc.... She went off on why the Church would make couples "jump through all those hoops" to get married and wouldn't that encourage people to just not marry. She and her husband apparently had nothing more than one appointment with their pastor to plan the ceremony. I explained that the Church takes marriage seriously and wants couples to be prepared for it and to have the tools to stay together. Then she got upset and went off on me that Protestant churches take marriage seriously enough to want people to get married so they don't make that difficult. The thing is that I don't even see the marriage prep requirements as a difficulty.
The next issue was when I mentioned something about a deacon at RCIA. She didn't know that the Catholic Church had deacons; she thought it was a Baptist or Presbyterian thing originally that was only the product of "Bible-based" churches. I politely said that the Catholic Church is Bible-based (just not based ONLY on the Bible) and that since it was first it had deacons first. I also explained briefly what their role is. She accused me of acting like she was stupid and trying to create a gulf between Protestantism and Catholicism that does not exist.
This week, it was (and I won't bore you with the details of how this came up) something about grace and forgiveness. Unfortunately, this conversation took place entirely on e-mail which was a huge part of the problem. I teach in a Catholic school and answered half of these e-mails on the fly between classes and one over lunch. Her basic argument was that grace covers sin when you get "saved"--all sin, past, present and future--and that if you are a real Christian, you should not and do not have to face consequences for sin. This would include any sort of penance or consequence in the world. I tried (on the fly) to explain the viewpoint that when you sin there are always consequences and that you have to find ways to reconcile yourself to God and to those you may have hurt.
By the end of this, she declared me a bitter and angry person who hates all Protestants and needs counselling. I first and foremost need counselling because I have the perception that there is a theological divide between Protestantism and Catholicism that does not exist and is completely in my imagination. This morning, I received an e-mail telling me that I am to never discuss any religious matter with her again until I am able to understand that the only person in the world who sees any divide between Protestants and Catholics is ME and that if I continue to try to convince others that one exists, I will cause big problems for my parish and myself and all of my relationships.
I don't even know how to answer any of this. This is a friend who has loudly and often proclaimed that she does not have any misgivings about the Catholic church or my conversion, but obviously she does. Or maybe her lack of misgivings is because she's been able to convince herself that there really isn't any difference other than how Sunday morning services look. I don't know. But at this point, I'm not even sure we can be friends anymore when I get attacked like this all the time. Help??
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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Sat Oct 18th, 2008 06:00 pm |
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I see you have a background in the EvFree Church. I was there, too, for a number of years. They're quite intolerant of the Catholic Church. (Tell ya something you didn't already know, right?)
My advice would be to back off all discussion of religion for a time and let your friendship reassert itself. If it comes up, assure her that you love the Lord Jesus Christ and that you do share that in common and always will. Then let the Holy Spirit do what He will with the rest. Perhaps she'll be curious and ask. Perhaps she'll do some research on her own. Maybe she'll try to prove to you how wrong the CC is and, like so many who do that, become Catholic herself!
Mainly, if you do lose her as a friend, be sure that this is all her doing and none of yours. Do all you can to love her as you know Christ loves her, recognizing that her mind has been filled with a lot of junk that needs to be slowly washed away.
And congratulations on your upcoming wedding!
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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Steven Barrett
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Absurdistan, AKA , Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 1574 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Oct 18th, 2008 06:14 pm |
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 Welcome to the Forum, Amy! You couldn't have come to a better place for support and vent a few toots or blasts of steam.
It's YOUR wedding, YOUR marriage, and HER PROBLEM. Not yours, except for the momentary grief she's causing you. Who knows, it might be some separation anxiety building up because once you're married, well, you won't be able to hang out shopping, etc. like you used to and she'll miss the company and this is her way of letting it come out.
HOWEVER, since you mentioned that word Vineyard, a-hem, you're dealing with a pretty strongly committed Protestant.
I've never in all my life understood why some, not all, Protestants have this beef with meeting several times with any cleric who'll be performing the marriage ceremony. When you get a chance, get on the web and type in "Baptist, divorce, bible belt, statistics" and you'll have all the facts you'll need at your disposal. Even Baptist preachers are up in alarm over the ever-rising number of divorces in families, couples and the region most people least expected: The Bible/Sunbelt.
On the contrary, the Church and region where divorces occured the least, was ours and the Northeast. Why? For one, our teachings about divorce. While our numbers nationwide aren't so hot, marriages have a way of sticking up north because most of the people who haven't migrated south with the snowbirds and other geese have little taste for finding themselves the hot topic of local gossip. When I lived in Orlando, -- 30 years ago -- ever the rising star of the Sunbelt thanks to a lot of Tinker Bell's pixie dust, a lot of pie-eyed young folks coming from mostly evangelical free-churches their parents belonged to just got married in a jiffy and within three to five years, they were filing for jiffy "no-fault divorces." So much for the pixie dust.
Remember, it's YOUR SOUL, MARRIAGE & FUTURE, not her's on the line. You have the right to call your shots, including who'll make the team for your bridal party, if need be.
God Bless ya and welcome in as you're on your way home! We'll help you get there!
Steven 
Last edited on Sat Oct 18th, 2008 06:16 pm by Steven Barrett
____________________
James Michael Curley to a young Thomas “Tip” O’Neill -- “Son, it’s nice to be important, but it’s more important to be nice.”
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setapart
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| Joined: | Sat Jan 13th, 2007 |
| Location: | Austin, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 269 |
| First Name: | Bill | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Born Catholic, Non-Denominational Charismatic, Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Oct 18th, 2008 07:58 pm |
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Amy,
Jill and Steven gave you sound advise and encouragement. My 3rd son who used to live in Houston went to a Vineyard Church there. Both him and his wife attended there. Their pastor met several times with them, had pre-marital classes over a several month period. So the case with your friend is not across the board even within the same faith persuasion.
I agree with Jill and Steven - keep your distance regarding faith issues and be open to being her friend. I have to tip toe with my oldest son who is an on-fire Calvary Chapel Evangelical who loves the Lord with all of His heart. He does not agree with me coming back to the Church so I have to -even several years into my return - be careful with what type of conversation I get into with him. We still love each other very much and he is not shy about telling me that - (even at 38 years of age - he still tells me that he loves me).
Welcome to the forum - you will find all kinds of conversations here - and also much support.
May God bless your engagement and form you and your fiance to be a blessing to the Church and to the world.
Bill
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But for you who fear my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture. Mal 4:2
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tedjenczewski
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| Joined: | Thu May 10th, 2007 |
| Location: | Richmond, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 392 |
| First Name: | Ted | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Presbyterian, revert Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Oct 19th, 2008 03:19 am |
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| Welcome to the forum Amy. It sounds like your friend is afraid of the truth, and if approached with love and charity for the next several years might actually come to embrace the catholic faith. I suggest you give her two very easy to read books about the catholic church, both by Patrick Madrid... "Where is That in the Bible" and "Why is that in Tradition". These books should open her ears to the errors of fundy/Calvinist theology. God bless you.
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"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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amielou
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| Joined: | Sat Oct 18th, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Amy | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian (Disciples of Christ), Evangelical Free, RCIA |
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Posted: Mon Oct 20th, 2008 02:39 pm |
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I got another e-mail from her that I read this morning (I took the day off from the internet yesterday which I may do on Sundays from now on!). She informs me now that she has forgiven me. Trouble is, I don't know what for.
Something did occur to me at mass yesterday about all of this trouble that some Evangelicals have with the Church. I grew up around these people and worked at a private "interdenominational" school for a time where I was surrounded by them. So many of them constantly are struggling to find God and to find Jesus and can't see Him in their lives...and yesterday morning while my fiance and his parents went to receive the eucharist, I realized that of course, these others struggle to find Jesus because they do not have His physical presence in their churches, their worship, or their lives. Even without receiving Eucharist, I have been part of the Catholic Church for most of my life (I went to Catholic school from 7th-12th grade and have taught mostly in Catholic schools), and have had some measure of the peace that His presence brings. They do not have that and some of them are constantly struggling to find it.
Also, my sister-in-law to be said something unintentionally profound about all of this. She has an Evangelical friend who is constantly trying to "save" her. She said she has come to realize that while being Catholic is who we are, their faith is often what they are--not an identity but a label that they have put on and must constantly prove or justify.
Thanks everyone for your encouragement and empathy. It means a lot, and I think I'll be here a lot along this journey!
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tedjenczewski
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| First Name: | Ted | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Presbyterian, revert Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Oct 21st, 2008 03:59 am |
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| You are on to something here Amy. Even given all the knowledge many of us here have acquired in our conversion or reversion to the catholic faith, the reason we really do it is because it is in the Catholic church that we find the bread of heaven and the cup of salvation, the REAL presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist, which gives us that peace that surpasses all understanding. Last edited on Tue Oct 21st, 2008 04:01 am by tedjenczewski
____________________
"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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Steven Barrett
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Absurdistan, AKA , Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 1574 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Oct 21st, 2008 05:34 am |
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Amy, that was an excellent post you put up. Like yourself, I'm a bit perplexed at to why you're the one being forgiven, but she feels so strongly that you're taking such a radically opposite about face from your presently-shared Protestant faith that she just feels it's wrong and impelled to forgive you for a perceived wrong-doing.
It's irritating, and yes, patronizing ... but remember, in her heart, she sincerely believes she's out for your best interests. And there's certainly merit there, albeit misinformed. But there was something you quoted your sister-in-law-to be as saying that has me scratching my head. 
As you said above:
Also, my sister-in-law to be said something unintentionally profound about all of this. She has an Evangelical friend who is constantly trying to "save" her. She said she has come to realize that while being Catholic is who we are, their faith is often what they are--not an identity but a label that they have put on and must constantly prove or justify. (emphasis mine, /s)
I'm very familiar with the first part. Oh, yeah, I've had some folks wringing their hands over me more times than not concerning my "Catholic leanings." At first it bugged the living h..l out of me to no end. But it made more sense to humor these worries off than to get worked over unless I could sense a "possee" from what is now the rest of my family's baptist church that I used to belong to. I'm NOT looking forward to seeing that kind of pressure forthcoming as it may well. Even my wife who was baptized as a Congregationalist, then became a confirmed Episcopalian before joining the baptists some 15 yrs ago. Our first three children were baptized as Catholics and our youngest, Episcopalian. So I'm ready to say ... "that's been taken care of" if they're worried about our kids and my wife's salvation.
One thing I've noticed about evangelicals; they are persistently friendly to get you into their local church and that's admirable...to a point; and that point being is that the local church in which they've done everything to make you feel a part of, will turn awfully possessive at the very moment you show any signs of backsliding or worse, side-sliding Romeward. That's when the former loving you into the local church then becomes smothering you to keep you in, and the spiritual blackmailing that comes with it. I'm sure they mean well, but don't let them get to you, as I'm sure they'll ratchet up their efforts to do so. I'm surprised they didn't try anything while you were teaching Catholic kids. (Hmmm, notice how little leaning we do? Some Catholics including myself wish were more outgoing, but not to the point of leaning.)
While I see your fiancee's sister's point about us "being who we are," but only up to a point, because a lot of them can't understand why we have such an "exclusivist" viewpoint on just the Divine origins of our Faith. That's a real dagger to them. And it's understandable. But I'm perplexed about the second have of her explanation. Let me see if I have this right in the interest of trying to be fair: Is this a reflection of the relatively loose denominational sense of loyalty many Protestants, particularly Evangelicals, share concerning where they worship so long as they're not those almost Catholic "high church" Anglicans or even Lutherans?
It's always been a gut suspicion on my part.
With apologies to the Bible, help me in my lack of knowledge here!  
Gotcha in my prayers; even your maid of honor for a deeper change of heart.
S.
____________________
James Michael Curley to a young Thomas “Tip” O’Neill -- “Son, it’s nice to be important, but it’s more important to be nice.”
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amielou
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| Joined: | Sat Oct 18th, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Amy | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian (Disciples of Christ), Evangelical Free, RCIA |
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Posted: Tue Oct 21st, 2008 02:02 pm |
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I think she was referring to their constant proclamations of "I'm a Christian". Many of the more fundamentalist (and insecure) Evangelicals are constantly and loudly proclaiming that they do this and don't do that because they are "Christians". I know that many of my former Evangelical co-workers are constantly trying to make sure that they are able to prove their faith to everyone and prove that they are "right" with God. Plus they are following all of the "unwritten" rules of their church that mark them as suitably Christian in that communities eyes. It becomes more a label they are wearing than a way of living--especially because they don't always understand or care about the ways in which they have to wear that label.
I'm not sure that's clear but I hope it helps.
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Steven Barrett
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Absurdistan, AKA , Massachusetts USA |
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| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Oct 21st, 2008 06:02 pm |
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Yes, Amy...it helped. And it all fits in with so many attempts by some evangelicals I've seen undertake to "prove" how much more Christian they are in their non-incarnational religious bodies (denoms. and non denoms.) than all those others (i.e. us and our liturgical separated brethern). Hence, always a new revival, a new form of service ("designed to incorporate much of what was great in the old with newer contemporary modes of worship expression" and the like.  )
In the meantime, we'll keep happily plodding along with our liturgy that's stood up for the past 2,000 years and likely* to keep on for another two thousand.
* Or God has other plans in between.
____________________
James Michael Curley to a young Thomas “Tip” O’Neill -- “Son, it’s nice to be important, but it’s more important to be nice.”
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Intercessor
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| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Oct 23rd, 2008 03:08 am |
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Amy, I'm glad you have found the forum and hope you will be
encouraged here.
Grace and peace,
Becky
____________________
Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials. . .the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Blessed is the man who perseveres in temptation, for when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life. . . NAB James 1:2-4,12
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abbycat
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| Joined: | Thu Jan 17th, 2008 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
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| First Name: | abby | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Non-Denomational Charismatic, Lutheran, Orthodox Catechumate |
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 05:00 am |
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Hi ..... well, you are walking before me so to speak. I know when the time comes that I lock into an RCIA group, I have several dear evangelical friends who are going to be very overt in their disapproval. One of my dearest friends had a hard time a few months ago just when I mentioned to her that I was "investigating" the RC church. She literally got up from her seat in her living room, walked over to the seat furtherest from me and sat down - arms folded. It's very sad, but you are not alone.
abby
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<*)))><
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amielou
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| Joined: | Sat Oct 18th, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Amy | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian (Disciples of Christ), Evangelical Free, RCIA |
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 05:35 pm |
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I am just at a complete loss with this woman right now. I have no idea what to say to her.
She is sending me e-mails demanding an apology. I don't know what I am supposed to apologize for. I really don't. When I told her that I need some time away from this because I don't know what to say to her since everything I say has been perceived as "lashing out" and "attacking" her, she answered me by calling me childish and irresponsible and a person of "shallow faith".
She pursued the whole grace/forgiveness thing further and I responded that I didn't want to have the discussion anymore. She then got angry that I refused to explain the Catholic position to her and was refusing so that I could claim that she wasn't supporting my conversion, and that she wanted to know because of how much she supports it. So I told her that I am not doing a very good job of explaining it, and if she really wants to know, I could get her in touch with a priest that could explain it properly. Well, for some reason that set her off completely and was apparently the nastiest most awful thing anyone could ever say to another human. I really don't understand that response. Most of my Catholic friends thought that if she really wants to know, a priest could certainly do a better job explaining it than me and that was the right suggestion. I can only chalk it up to a total difference in view regarding teaching authority--but even then, I don't know why it was so awful to make that suggestion.
I'm getting pretty depressed here, because it appears that I am going to lose this friendship that has been very dear to me for 12 years. Plus, there is the whole problem of the wedding party.
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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 05:48 pm |
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Hmmm..... Your friend sounds like she's a bit, well, irrational at this point, or at least insofar as you are describing her. I would say one last time that your conversation on the topic is unproductive and then I would ignore her Emails for a time.
At least, that's what I would do....
And I'd be pondering a back-up maid of honor.
The only other idea might be to approach her, per Matthew 18, with one or two others and try to have an impartial go-between. I suggest this mainly because of the commitment you have with her about your wedding. Ya know, in thinking about that, is your wedding going to be in the Catholic Church? Do you think the Lord will be able to soften her heart enough between now and then that it will remove all bitterness about where she is and what she is doing as a supporter and witness of your marriage vows?
You are carrying a cross right now, just as the Lord said we would and must. I pray He gives you wisdom and compassion as you and she work out what is best.
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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amielou
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| First Name: | Amy | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian (Disciples of Christ), Evangelical Free, RCIA |
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 06:14 pm |
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Bless you, Jill---
You may be exactly right about the go-between as in Matthew 18. And I think that I know who the right person is. I just sent him an e-mail and asked if he could consider it.
I didn't think about that option. Thank you.
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Steven Barrett
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| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 06:27 pm |
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Amy,
Sounds like your "friend," has an "ecumenical real estate problem" on two levels. 1.) she suffers from extreme anti-Catholicism and that brings us to level 2.) she sure as heck doesn't want to even go near a Catholic church, much less step into one or be seen stepping into one.
Unless she gets over herself and her two problems, you my friend will continue having major problems with her as a maid of honor who's done nothing to demonstrate any scintilla of honor on her part for your religious beliefs.
Who the h is a maid of honor or any bridesmaid or member of a wedding party to dictate (through bullying letters, etc.) where the bride or groom shall worship God?
In baseball terms, your maid of honor is also your pitcher, has the bases loaded with no outs and David Ortiz, the best designated hitter in the game at bat. Time to walk out to the mound and ask for the ball and signal to the bullpen you want a new pitcher.
____________________
James Michael Curley to a young Thomas “Tip” O’Neill -- “Son, it’s nice to be important, but it’s more important to be nice.”
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amielou
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 08:02 pm |
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I think that my fiance's sister will probably be the maid of honor now. She was my very good friend for several years before she introduced me to her brother because she had a hunch we would click. Obviously, she was right. I debated between her and this friend anyway.
My problem right now is if I even want this woman in my wedding at all and what we do about the wedding party if I don't have her. She already chose, ordered and paid for a dress. So if I don't have her, I'm going to have to pay for the dress and find someone who will fit in it. If I do keep her in the wedding party, I'm going to have to find a way to tell her she's being "demoted".
She is being extremely irrational. And is telling me this is all my fault and that I am a bitter and angry person and a bad friend and owe her an apology. I don't understand how you can call someone those things and then demand that they apologize to you. That is not computing in my brain. I never intended to offend her and I told her that I am sorry if I did but nothing I ever said in all of this was intended to hurt her. That isn't good enough for her, and she is insisting that I am continuing to "lash out" at her by saying that. And, quite frankly, being told that I'm bitter and angry and that that is the only reason I'm converting and that I am a bad friend and a bad person hurts me and I would like an apology for that.
And no matter what is said, I still have a feeling that most of this has to do with her not being comfortable with my conversion.
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Jeff
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| First Name: | Jeff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | I am an Evangelical Christian and a British missionary in ... |
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Posted: Sun Nov 2nd, 2008 01:16 pm |
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| I am an Evangelical searching fro the truth and believe me I fully understand your problem here. I was probably just like your friend, forever defending "our faith" and knocking the Roman Cathoilc Church, until one day the Lord spoke to me, that I had no love, mercy and grace in me for my brothers and sisters. It is only now through a thorough study of the Roman Catholic Church that I see there are very few differences. I am still working on some which I find hard to understand, but it has given me a new love for the Roman Catholics. I pray your friend will also one day do a study and therefore be more understanding. Blessings. Jeff
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Missionary
http://www.finalharvestministries.com
Antigua, Guatemala
Central America
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abbycat
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Posted: Sun Nov 2nd, 2008 02:00 pm |
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Hi ami .... I just want to relate something to you from my "not so glorious" passed ... I have been seeing a therapist for about 7 years ... I went through a pretty difficult divorce a few years ago and I was pretty well done in. Anyhow, he and his dear wife have the same background I do .... solidly Evangelical. Well, I won't go into details, but last Easter he and his wife joined the RC church. I went totally off. (As if it was any of my business!) Everything in me screamed ... "how could you both do this? You've gotten out of the boat!" Well, bless him, he listened and really did not reply a lot because he knew nothing he said would make any difference at the time ... I was totally overcome with my own feelings of being abandoned (I know ... irrational). Well, since then, we've talked about this to a great extent, and I think to those of us steeped in Evangelicalism, we so strongly believe that the RC church is a tool of the devil, the great anti-Christ, and on and on and on, that to see someone we know and care about take this leap is horrifying. Well, obviously, for me at least ... God had other ideas as he and I discuss matters of faith over half the time now, and I am being drawn more and more to the RC church for myself. There's not a lot you can do or say to your friend, discouraging though that is. I truly think this is God's work and not yours. Just be there and be available for her to - not allowing her to attack - do not allow that, but to answer her concerns about you. Bless you ....
abby
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amielou
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Posted: Sun Nov 2nd, 2008 07:21 pm |
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I'm wondering if the "abandonment" feelings aren't bigger than just the church issue. I have for many many years been her "single friend". The one who she calls up when her husband is busy or she wants to get away from him and her kids. And I was always there. But now, I'm getting married and things are changing in that area, too.
Also, she has always felt like she gets to give me relationship advice always preceded by explanations of how I don't understand something because I am single, and spiritual lessons preceded by explanations of how I don't understand because I have never committed myself to one denomination.
So now, I am getting married and settling into a denomination. I think that she is feeling like we might become equal (in her view) and she doesn't like that either.
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hpj0828
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| First Name: | Henry | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Messianic Jewish believer, Hebrew Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Nov 3rd, 2008 02:06 am |
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Common ground between RCC and the Vineyard. Here are some thoughts that might reassure your friend.
1. The RCC has an active charismatic movement. Spiritual gifts such as prophecy and healing, so prominent in the Vineyard movement are actively practiced in RC churches. Perhaps your friend might be interested in what the Holy Spirit is doing among Roman Catholics! For example, our diocese (Trenton, NJ) recently sponsored a RC conference on contemporary prophetic ministry.
2. The Vineyard is currently trying to raise up "apostles" who will exercise government among all the local churches in an area. Show how this idea is equivalent within the RCC in the idea of a bishop and a See.
3. The Vineyard prophetic movement sees a connection between prophetic revelation and "signs" in the natural. That is, they see that God's contemporary prophetic word is often accompanied by physical events such as earthquakes, and smaller more local signs. Explain how this concept is similar to the RC concept of a sacrament. The sacrament is a physical sign that accompanies through which a spiritual reality is transmitted.
4. Explain that the RCC's understanding of justification by faith as the beginning of the spiritual life is the same as that of traditional Protestant evangelicals. Quote the RC Catechism to demonstrate this.
5. The Vineyard sees itself as a movement with a mission--to transmit spiritual revival to "other streams" -- that is other valid movements of the Holy Spirit in the church. John Wimber originally never intended the Vineyard to be a "denomination", but rather a movement of the Spirit. It is only late in his life (late 80s and early 90s) that he acknowledged the need to develop a structure of accountability similar to that present in most Protestant denominations. Perhaps your friend can see that the Vineyard's mission could equally well be to bring spiritual revival (increased knowledge of how to move in the gifts of the Holy Spirit) to the "stream" of the Roman Catholic Church. Perhaps there is something of value in the Vineyard's teachings that could be appropriated by a local RC charismatic group in your area? Something practical that is not against RC teaching? Maybe your friend could speak on such a subject to a well-prepared charismatic group within your diocese who would know how to "evangelize" your friend with sensitivity and with the ability to listen to her with compassion?
6. In his last years, John Wimber received inner healing ministry. Prior to this ministry, Wimber was unaware of how issues from his past affected his present ministry. Would your friend be open to a discussion of inner healing ministry? How it is done in the Vineyard? In the RC charismatic movement? If your friend would be willing to acknowledge the Vineyard's emphasis on this ministry and to explore it, either in a Vineyard or a RC context, this might address the issues you have in your relationship with her.
Perhaps these thoughts may be of help?
Shalom!
Henry
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Jeff
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Posted: Mon Nov 3rd, 2008 04:03 am |
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| Wow! Thank you Henry. This is a very interesting addition to my study on the Roman Catholic Church. Theer a lot of similar ways we Evangelicals worship that are the same as Roman Catholics. I am still having a problem with transubstantiation. I was talking to a Roman Catholic the other day and she told me that she did not actually believe it is the Body and Blood of Jesus. I take it you would not then consider her a real Catholic? Jeff
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Mon Nov 3rd, 2008 05:10 am |
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