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Angie_Rivas1
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| Joined: | Wed Oct 11th, 2006 |
| Location: | Downey, USA |
| Posts: | 110 |
| First Name: | Angie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 05:25 am |
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I am sure that I've shared about my close friend,"Addy", before. She attends the nondenominational church during the weekday for bible study and goes to mass on Sunday. She has taken several Landmark communication courses. Today we went out for dinner and had a somewhat unpleasant conversation. I really would not like to lose her friendship because we have a long history together. We've been a great support to each other.
It all started because she tells me that we are our words and become our words. To explain her point, she shared with me how a catholic group and herself went to pray for a woman who had cancer. Her faith and beleif was so strong that she was cancer-free two months later. She found the movie "The Secret" very powerful. When I mentioned to her that I had a problem with this mentality because it is not being realist, she seemed at ease. I shared with her about my generous 21 years old cousin died of leukemia three years ago. He claimed to be healed even in his last moments on this earth. His mission was done. I explained to her that when I married I meant my vows and not matter how positive I tried to be and think I was not going to change my reality; my marriage was a failure. She thinks I am bitter, resistant, and hesitant to have a better life. We agreed on one thing, though, at the end we have no much control of our lives, only God has a final say.
I know that a week ago I told her a comment that really bother her. I said it jokingly but I also meant it in a way. I asked to ditch her bible study and join me at mine. I told her her that her salvation was on jeopardy and then I sort of laughed. Perhaps It was wrong of me to say something like this. See, the only reason why I said this comment is because I personally believe that she is confused about her faith. She clarify that she is a 29 years old, mature woman she knows what she is doing. God has given her peace about the path He is leading her to, which it is to get to know Him. I really care for my friend, but I feel that everytime I disagree with her perspective of life, she throws me her whole landmark terminology and tries to impose her views on me. I am also hurt that she neglects to see that I don't mean harm for her life. I care about her spiritual well-being. Tonight, I apologized to her if I've been judgemental and she told me that she forgives me. I also asked for her to stop inviting me to her landmark events because I was not interested in joining. I am not sure where we will go from here, but I am fearful that we may have damaged our friendship  What else should I do besides praying for this friendship?
Angie
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"Be not afraid" JPII
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Annie
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 731 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 10:54 am |
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I don't know what Landmark is but I do know that when I was in my late 20's I was not mature enough to discern which church was best for me. That's why it took 50 years for me to become Catholic.
I have had a couple of fallings out with friends in my life over words and stuff. There are some "friendships" that aren't worth saving, such as the two that I had. But yours sounds great so I would just follow her lead in the conversation and not be pushy and certainly not say controversial things like "your soul is in jeopardy" as this implies that you know the mind of God in her case.
Of course if she offers you a rude, insulting putdown you should respond by asking why she says this and offer a saintly response (as you dig your fingernails into your palm).
In my case the "friendships" dissolved over one friend being the head person in charge of getting homosexuals ordained in the ELCA and the other friend took a trip to Israel to stay with some Palestinians and became very anti-Semitic to the point where it was her whole focus. There were other issues with her too.
Blessings on you and all your friends, may you collect friends in life like other people collect decorative spoons,
Last edited on Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 10:56 am by Annie
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Annie
Ora et labora
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Prodigal Daughter
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| Joined: | Wed Nov 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 202 |
| First Name: | Deborah/PD | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptized Catholic, received First Communion, left during Confirmation year. ... |
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Posted: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 11:03 am |
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Dear Angie,
It's interesting that you bring this up. It goes back to my post about looking back on our Protestant experiences. There is much error taught in those "harmless little non-denominational Bible studies." The other new age stuff your friend is into is a lie from the pit. The beauty of being Catholic is that when we tell our Catholic friends about our concern for them we don't have to base it on our own opinion or interpretation of the Bible. I generally use the phrase "That does not line up with Church teaching?"
The fact is that as a Catholic, your friend has agreed to submit to the Church and not her own or someone else's understanding of what is true. Maybe when things cool down you could find a gentle way of reminding her of this. Questions like "Have you read what the Catechism says about faith?" or, "That is one person's interpretation, but what does the Church say?" can be a non-threatening way of pointing her back to the Magisterium.
I have a friend at work who has been getting most of her reading material from a local Bible bookstore. I just said, "Their Catholic section is about the size of one shelf. Many of their books are anti-Catholic like the 'Left Behind' series" and finally "I always check out the publisher to see if it is a book that I can trust." These comments and more have not caused tension but rather helped my friend to re-consider what might be appropriate to read as a Catholic.
If your friend's desire is to submit to Christ AND HIS CHURCH I bet she will be open to honest and respectful questions and comments.
Last edited on Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 07:35 pm by Prodigal Daughter
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"Man should tremble, the world should vibrate, all Heaven should be deeply moved when the Son of God appears on the altar in the hands of the priest."
St. Francis of Assisi
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Steven Barrett
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Absurdistan, AKA , Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 1454 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 02:44 pm |
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"... we are our words and become our words..."
There's some truth to this. Even Jesus said what comes out of our mouths reveals what's in (or in some cases even ails) our hearts, which of course, are affected by our minds. And our minds, naturally, are affected by what we take in and do with what comes in to them (minds.) St. James warned against acting on the worst thoughts and allowing them to surface in harsh words that can't be taken back.
BUT ... we don't have to "become our words." Some of the worst people allowed themselves to be transformed by their worst thoughts and words.
Can anyone afford to forget Hitler and the effects his words had on Germany, especially during the vast Nuremberg Party Rallies?
With all due respect to your friend, perhaps she didn't get the whole gist of what she heard at these Landmark sessions, or she's in danger of allowing herself to be swallowed up into some kind of mind-controlling sect.
Don't break the friendship off. Especially not now. You can always be her friend, and in a much more loving way by praying for her to see the true light of Christ.
____________________
James Michael Curley to a young Thomas “Tip” O’Neill -- “Son, it’s nice to be important, but it’s more important to be nice.”
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MitchyMitch
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Snellville, Georgia USA |
| Posts: | 104 |
| First Name: | Mitch | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Independent Baptist and Southern Baptist...Now Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Mar 25th, 2007 04:12 pm |
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Y'know, when people grow in different directions, sometimes friendships and relationships break apart.
I had a friend, a great friend, when I was a Baptist. We had met when I was a security guard, and he was a waiter at a bar/reataurant. I was vaguely Baptist, and he was vaguely into new age and martial arts-types of religio-philosophy. His wife was very Baptist, and my wife was fallen-away Catholic (culturally Catholic as opposed to strong believer). We even had some shared history that we did not know about, as he and I were at the same military base at the same time, he Army, and I Marine Corps.
Over a couple of years, he went from this slightly pagan man to "born again". He was an inspiration to me and my wife, who "got saved" at his church. He and I could talk hours on the phone about scripture - I had been sent to a Baptist private school all throughout my youth, and knew much about the Bible, and he was hungry for the Word. We enjoyed a mentorship of equals, and considered our relationship much like that of Paul and Barnabas.
My friend, Marc, felt the call to the ministry. Oh, how we rejoiced for him and his wife. This is a major calling, and Marc had been so...listless for so long. He had the temperment for a pastor: he was engaging, friendly, non-judgmental, and quite a charismatic speaker; as well, he grew much in knowledge in Biblical principles and Baptist theology.
Something happened to Marc at one point, though. He developed an attitude that was eccentric at first, and quickly devolved into one annoying quality. It stemmed from God's call for his life, and he could not understand why everybody wasn't pursuing a ministry vocation as he was, or at least not as spiritually studous as he. he would argue points, and seemed at times to be rather agitated that someone could have another (biblical) opinion that was counter to his, because "I've been studying this for a year [at seminary], and who are you to...."
Funny, it was around this tme that I was losing much faith in the Baptist/Literal/Fundamental expression of Christianity.
One of Marc's classes in seminary dealt with God speaking through men filled with the Holy Spirit. On one visit to our house, I was in very poor spirits because my marriage had hit a huge huge pothole and the marital relationship was at a stalemate. I talked to Marc about this,needing some counseling and also needed to just speak to a third party about a lot of pain, a lot of which was financial, another part was growth in all areas of our lives, and another being parental direction regarding our son.
Marc listened intently. he nodded at the right moment to indicate he understood. Then the unexpected happened. When Marc began to speak, he stated that it was not Marc talking, but God through Marc. He then told me that a lot of my problems dealt with my limited involvement in the ministry of the church we attended (now a different one than Marc's church). Now, I had been a pretty regular tither- the full tenth -, went to Sunday Morning and Sunday evening services, took classes at the church on Wednesday (one of which was financial classes that proved to be self-serving to the church, and non-serving to the needs of the class-takers), our son was heavily involved in Awanas, and it was hard to think how I could be more involved, since we were there pratically every time the church doors were open. When I told Marc this, he just sad "Hey, it's not me talking. It's God."
How many times had I heard this. But when it was aimed at me, I was just overwhelmed.
That was the last time I had a regular conversation with Marc. Shortly after that episode (and in a very small way, partly because of that episode) I made a conscious break with the Baptist church, the beginning of my journey that would bring me across the Tiber.
Marc and I still talk, though a lot less frequently. He's almost finished with Seminary. He pastors a small church quite aways from where I live. He knows that I am Catholic, which is both a fascination to him, as well as a source of small debate - he has learned much about decorum, and does not try to whammy me.
I share this story to highlight that sometimes different paths taken among friends can seriously damage the relationship. Marc and I could look at that relationship-damaging conversation, and though we may disagree about the attitudes expressed or the spirit in which we had that conversation, we could both agree that sometimes our focuses on Christ could sever a friendships that were mutually detrimental. Marc had outgrown our mentorship of equals, and was needing a relationship with someone else, probably a pastor who could show him the ropes. I had outgronw our friendship, because God had simply laid out another path for me, and holding on to the Baptist Church was not part og His plan.
I think about Marc a lot, and pray for him, his wife, and his beautiful children, and I think he does the same for me. And when we do talk, it is more about what is going on in each other's lives. Sometimes we discuss the Bible in the ways we used to. We can still debate as long as it is kept light and frothy. But the days of spiritual mentorship is gone.
____________________
Pax,
Mitch
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Steven Barrett
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Absurdistan, AKA , Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 1454 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Mar 26th, 2007 01:06 pm |
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 Mitch,
Keep Marc on your short list of friends and pray for this man. A look at the CHN conversion stories should give you great comfort in knowing Marc is still "reachable" -- even when it comes to discussing Catholicism in particular. It's great that you still get together and discuss things is a light-hearted manner. God is working through both of you. The constrasts of his beliefs with ours should give you more reasons to be thankful for the Catholic Church and our Faith, (doctrines, dogmas, etc.) And, on the other hand, we have much to learn and appreciate from our Protestant brethern when it comes to appreciating what the Bible teaches us. Sure, Protestants never seem to "get it" concerning Jesus' direct founding of the Catholic Church, not to mention the non-allegorical introduction of the Eucharist-to-come-on Holy Thursday. And, of course, most Protestants completely blow it when it comes to Mary's role in Christianity.
Nevertheless, we should admire their ability to dig into scripture (and let it reach into their hearts) better than many Catholics do.
By the way, I'm not sure if either of you have "outgrown" your spiritual friendship. A seminary education isn't always the best indicator of whether or not a person has "outgrown" a friendship. It depends on what a person learns in seminary, especially when it comes to understanding the proper role of humility in one's spiritual life and relationships with others. Scripture teaches that a "gentle answer turns away wrath," but a thorough seminary education will go a long way to ensure that a humble approach towards each other when it comes to discussing religious issues will do much to make sure we don't even have to answer wrath gently, or (hopefully not)
otherwise.
Give this man your all to God when it comes to praying for greater understanding and appreciation of our faith. You don't even need to think directly about his possible conversion. That's when it's best to step aside and let God do what God does best. And, who knows, maybe some night you'll turn to EWTN and see him sit across from Marcus Grodi and sharing his Journey Home.
God has Blessed you with your friendship with Marc and likewise for Marc and his family concerning you.
May God continue Blessing you and your family.
____________________
James Michael Curley to a young Thomas “Tip” O’Neill -- “Son, it’s nice to be important, but it’s more important to be nice.”
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MitchyMitch
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Snellville, Georgia USA |
| Posts: | 104 |
| First Name: | Mitch | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Independent Baptist and Southern Baptist...Now Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Mar 26th, 2007 10:23 pm |
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Steve,
Thanks for the kind words. I still think warmly of Marc and his family. It's been about a month since I spoke to him, and its probably time to pick up the phone.
The break was mutual but not apoken as much, and was not caused only by differences in belief. His pastorship had taken him to another city, and geographically speaking, it is kind of hard to continue a relationship. Time is also an issue, as he works full time, pastors a church, and goes to Seminary night courses. And he has a large family, as well.
In my time in the Baptist Church and Baptist Schools, I was introduced to Apologetics. I understand the arguements, and I also understand the doctrinal faults and weaknesses. I try to imagine Jesus walking into two Christians debating the Bible. I think he would say something to the effect of "You make some good points...And you, too make some good points. Tell me, what have you done for the poor and needy today?"
We used to use debate as a way to sharpen our thinking. Then it turned into "well, if you think that, your faith is inferior than mine". I would rather focus on commonalities all Christians can agree on, which is hard when someone just wants to make another inferior somehow. I'd rather keep the warm feelings from afar, is what I think I'm trying to say.
I talked to our pastor about it. He gave some great advice - to daily pray for unity of the Christian Church. I think I need to do that for some time before I next engage a Protestant in debate. The protestant needs to win a debate. I simply need to love him.
____________________
Pax,
Mitch
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Steven Barrett
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Absurdistan, AKA , Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 1454 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2007 11:23 am |
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Mitch,
Tell your good pastor he's right on the ball, and likewise yourself! I appreciated hearing from you today. Looks like both of you fellows will be doing a lot of iron shaping in the years to come. And, both Baptists and Catholics will be better for it!
Lord knows, as a volunteer sexton here, I always feel there's a lot of burrs to bang out, until I look at my own "blade" which too often looks like one of those ever handy disposables that I never get around to disposing until I accidently use one I should've disposed and only after I realized my mistake when some blood has been disposed from my capillaries! Heck, I'll even tolerate good old fashioned Catholic baitin' wisecracks more than any razor slice or paper cut.
Even the meanest and orniest Prod couldn't get my Irish up as quickly and painfully as a paper or razor cut. (Alas, though, I must admit, the trip wire between Catholic baitin' and razor/paper cuts is too painfully thin.) But that's the Irish in me. Thanks to God I have some dear Puerto Rican "brothers from another" who keep me in my place by reminding me to nominate one of them as Grand Marshal for the Holyoke, MA St. Patrick's Day Parade, which ironically passes through a city that was once predominately Irish Catholic, but now becoming mostly Puerto Rican.
With all the talk about "creative design," etc., I think the one thing God did to fully cut any and all prospective DNA claims the apes have on us, besides the reason to discern God and glorify Him, is humor; clean-good natured religious and ethnic humor. He only made one church, and since we blew that in grand style, He gave us other chances to improve our earthly lives through ethnic humor, the arts and music.
He created so many different kinds of us so even He has to have a great sense of humor. And, His humor isn't just limited to the usual Prot/Catholic variety, He used a lot of it back in 1978, when He made it spiritually incorrect to say anymore Polak jokes, especially if you weren't Polish! And, I know He got my attention the day JP II was elected because as I was driving through my now new home town, Hadley, MA, a very solid Polish farming town, I got the word on the radio that a Polish cardinal was elected Pope and I thought it was just another Polak joke spun off by Irish Catholics who were really upset that another I-talian got the job. Heck, it could've been an English pope or (gasp) a French one.
Imagine the day a Southern Cardinal is elected Pope! What'll happen at Bob Jones University on that glorious day that the South really rose again!
Since I have four (even mostly grown) kids, I can imagine Marc is really up to his ears in duties, both domestic and pastoral. He does indeed seem to be a Godly man and both of you are Blessed to have such a friendship. With real friends, it's not always the number times we get together, it's that we never forget who each of us are and why we are liked, loved and appreciated for who we are without pretenses.
May the Lord keep His Blessings on your friendship and both of your journeys in faith.
Steven
Now, I've gotta head out to sort the nickle returnable bottles and cans for our local food pantry funds. This is the only time I get to come home smelling like a brewery again and not have to face the stare that could freeze all of Saudi Arabia in a heartbeat!
____________________
James Michael Curley to a young Thomas “Tip” O’Neill -- “Son, it’s nice to be important, but it’s more important to be nice.”
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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2007 11:49 am |
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MitchyMitch wrote: Steve,
Thanks for the kind words. I still think warmly of Marc and his family. It's been about a month since I spoke to him, and its probably time to pick up the phone.
The break was mutual but not apoken as much, and was not caused only by differences in belief. His pastorship had taken him to another city, and geographically speaking, it is kind of hard to continue a relationship. Time is also an issue, as he works full time, pastors a church, and goes to Seminary night courses. And he has a large family, as well.
In my time in the Baptist Church and Baptist Schools, I was introduced to Apologetics. I understand the arguements, and I also understand the doctrinal faults and weaknesses. I try to imagine Jesus walking into two Christians debating the Bible. I think he would say something to the effect of "You make some good points...And you, too make some good points. Tell me, what have you done for the poor and needy today?"
We used to use debate as a way to sharpen our thinking. Ah yes, I know all about those debates. We have had many a debate at our home with former member of the "sect/cult" we came from. Many who left that Christian sect, were trying to sort out what they actually believed. Those debates would get a bit "hairy" at times, but we all walked away from them with our friendships in tact. We loved using that Proverb, "Iron sharpens iron and so one man sharpens another" to justify our need to debate. Oh and, the verse in Acts about Paul the Apostle debating daily in the synagogues. Then it turned into "well, if you think that, your faith is inferior than mine". I would rather focus on commonalities all Christians can agree on, which is hard when someone just wants to make another inferior somehow. I'd rather keep the warm feelings from afar, is what I think I'm trying to say.
I talked to our pastor about it. He gave some great advice - to daily pray for unity of the Christian Church. I think I need to do that for some time before I next engage a Protestant in debate. The protestant needs to win a debate. I simply need to love him. Isn't that the truth! Seems many protestants need a good debate every so often to assess whether or not they are alive spiritually. Catholics need to get on the ball, at least the ones who care. If they want to win many over to the Catholic faith, they need to learn the art of debating. Which, by the way, Marcus Grodi's guest on Journey Home said last night. He mentioned that young people need to learn how to debate and defend their Catholic/Christian faith, otherwise they will be eaten up alive (my terminology) by the liberal college Professors. Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Steven Barrett
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Absurdistan, AKA , Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 1454 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2007 02:57 pm |
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Darlene,
I think in Mitch's case, it's simply a matter of doing what he can to keep a friendship in good health. That's not implying that he wouldn't take a necessary stand when such was required; more like the art of picking and choosing which battles to fight. (If only I could master this at home!)
Yet, I fully agree with you about the need to strengthen our debating tactics.
Since I live in a heavily saturated academic area, it seems as if all I hear at times is nothing but one debate after another. And, as a former columnist, dang it all if I don't miss the thrill of a good-natured political/ideological broken-bottle, sharp-knives brawl. Well, maybe that's a little too colorful, but if the art of apologetics and debating is properly taught by people who honestly believe there needs to be two or more opinions thrown into the mix to make it a real interesting debate, then interesting things will follow.
Unfortunately, as you pointed out, a lot of unsuspecting kids are getting the shaft from their profs simply beause they are not given debating "street-smarts" ahead of time so they can question Prof. Hogwash and not have to fear getting a low grade because Prof. Hogwash will have too much respect for a kid who's not afraid to challenge the radicalist status quo because he or she has the skills.
Too much emphasis is placed on grades and their role in post-graduate job competition. As a result, the Hogwashes are increasingly able to intimidate their students into accepting whatever swill they have to dish out and grade "accordingly." (Likewise, a similar situation could exist in conservative religious schools, Catholic or Protestant.)
Pathetically enough, the rads of the late Sixties who never grew up and managed to slide by on their now-debunked leftist ideas and emotional immaturity (as they hide behind tenure) are behaving in ways that even the meanest and coldest academics the rads faced 40 years ago would be shamed to witness. This happens all too often especially when Hogwash has also written a book or two and made a few appearences on some PBS yak yak show.
Given that even college age kids aren't likely able to develop sufficient debating "street smart" skills to challenge their profs with necessary confidence -- perhaps some ombudsman could come up with a real workable grieveance procedure akin to the NFL's coaches challenge, especially when it comes to serious questions on faith and morals which can lead to immortal consequences.
Never hurts to dream, does it?
____________________
James Michael Curley to a young Thomas “Tip” O’Neill -- “Son, it’s nice to be important, but it’s more important to be nice.”
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MitchyMitch
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Snellville, Georgia USA |
| Posts: | 104 |
| First Name: | Mitch | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Independent Baptist and Southern Baptist...Now Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2007 03:57 pm |
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Angie, sorry if it seems we have hijacked your thread. I sincerely pray that you keep your friendship while emnarking on God's will for your life. I would recommend that you find areas of agreement in your religious dialogue, and focus on those rather than areas of distinction or contrast. And the surest way to spread the good news is to let the joy and peace God gives you shine forth, and never let the other person sew seeds of doubt in you.
Darlene and Steve,
I can whole-heartedly debate, and with authority.
My experience on both sides of the Christian coin has lead me to this conclusion: pretty much all debate between fundamentalist protestants and catholics can be boiled down to a single issue: the authority of the Church vs. Sola Scriptura. Paring down the argument to the magisterium is a way to turn off the ears of a protestant.
What is especially hard for me is to be drawn into debate on areas of agreement, where the methods used to arrive at the same conclusion are vastly different.
Not to put fine a touch on this, but take the issue of lust, and, er, auto-eroticism. Both the Catholic and Protestant believe that self-pleasure in this way is wrong. But the knowledgable protestant will still use the issue to hammer you over the head with the Catholic teaching of the "sin of Onan" in a backdoor attempt to attack the Magisterium. The Protestant rendering of the passage in question is one of disobedience to God in a singular command to a singular individual to pro-create, the sin not being masturbation or even birth-control in particular. The Catholic view is that all married couples are commanded to pro-create, and this passage is a singular example of a universal truth. When this argument comes up, I try to navigate the conversation back to Jesus's own teachings that lust and adultery are the same, and in counter-attack, further shows that salvation can be lost. What is lost is the AGREEMENT between Christians that auto-erotic behavior is simply sin, and a particularly damaging one at that. Such debate highlights not agreement, but differences.
I confess to you, my brothers and sisters, that one particular sin of mine, a regular temptation if you will, is to not love my neighbor. I recognize the anger in myself towards others, especially in debate. Surely, we are called on to defend our faith, and to be ready to give an explanation of the hope we have. But we are also given instruction to not participate in idle conversation, nor are we to throw our pearls before swine (give valuable testimony or truths to those unable to appreciate it due to their own nature). Idle conversation or casting my pearls before swine is a sure-fire way for me personally to develop and harbor bad feelings, sometimes genuine anger, especially in contrast to my being personally guided to love my neighbor more.
Debate is great if you can do it in love. Just remember that it is the peacemakers that are blessed.
Perhaps the bestdebate tactic is ecumenism? Is there any official opinion about that?
About the liberalized academia. Yes, it is a problem, but I have a particular experience that shows that it is not so bad, and not necessarily evil.
If it were not for liberal teachers, I would probably still be a Baptist today. One of the things a college education can do is to challenge your long-held beliefs. This can be a particularly hard thing to do, especially when so many students have lost faith altogether through this process.
For me, though, I found a way to think critically about my faith. It caused me to listen more thoroughly to what was coming from the Baptist pulpits. it caused me to be more intellectually honest about the contrasts of the sermons and what was actually written in the Bible, and to meditate on the Baptist call of Sola Scriptura, and the non-biblical or extra-biblical messages that were so preached upon.
Two classes come to mind that helped me so much. One was Critical Thinking, a logic class that taughtus to break down arguments, and identify the types of logic used. Another class was the Bible as Literature, which devasted the fundamentalist, literalist foundations of my faith.
An example of how these two classes helped me grow: For so long, I was told that if I did not believe in a literal six-day creation happening some 6,000 years ago, that I held an inferior faith. Because I believed this, I had to turn a blind eye to some scientific discoveries, such as light from stars reaching us that are much older than 6,000 years; or ancient Mayan civilisations that are dated around 13,000 years. The Bible as Literature helped me understand the Bible as it was writtenin the styles it was written in, and Crtical Thinking helped me understand what the difference is between Objective and Subjective. These things were very important for me to learn in order to break away from the Baptist Church and begin a quest for God, a quest that brought me across the Tiber.
Interestingly enough, Protestants get quite weary when debating me. I expose their debate tactics:
* that's a slippery slope arguement - can the outcome be different that what you say it "should be"?
* your use of rhetoric here is not biblically inspired, so why do you use that argument to support your thesis, when you otherwise argueso passionatly for Sola Scriptura?
* Intersting you use an ad hominem attack on me when I am merely reading a Bible passage - how does this passage threaten you to react such a way?Last edited on Tue Mar 27th, 2007 04:40 pm by MitchyMitch
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Pax,
Mitch
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Angie_Rivas1
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| Joined: | Wed Oct 11th, 2006 |
| Location: | Downey, USA |
| Posts: | 110 |
| First Name: | Angie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2007 11:25 pm |
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Mitch,
Don't worry about it! You guys are not going off topic but still bringing out good points. I am enjoying reading and learning from your responses... I have also to confess that judging is an area the Lord is working on me
Blessings,
Angie
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"Be not afraid" JPII
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MitchyMitch
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Snellville, Georgia USA |
| Posts: | 104 |
| First Name: | Mitch | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Independent Baptist and Southern Baptist...Now Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 11:42 pm |
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OK...A little out of practice, here, but attempted a debate on another website. The site was probably not the best choice, as it is a Protestant site geared towards former students of Pensacola Christian College (I had attended there briefly).
It was kind of fun. Nobody really had a clear disputation of my arguements, except on Magisterium and Mary.
One thing I noticed is that many protestants, included some Baptists, have abandoned the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved.
One bad thing about debating via discussion board, one person can throw so much at you, that by the time you have argued against every point, you might have well written a book!
For the most part, the discussion took place in love, both in my part and theirs. The discussion was moved to a "Heterodox" section, a section devoted to "unorthodox beliefs", which I find demeaning.
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Pax,
Mitch
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Eric3141
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| Joined: | Sat Mar 31st, 2007 |
| Location: | Bardstown, Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 17 |
| First Name: | Eric | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic revert |
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Posted: Sat Mar 31st, 2007 07:52 pm |
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For years I tried to witness to my 2 brothers who were practicing no form of christianity whatsoever. All I did was push them away. Now I just pray for them and things are better between us though they still aren't christian.
It seems that you have pointed out to her that the Protestant Bible studies aren't good for her Catholic faith. If you feel you have adequately explained your position then (unless she has questions) I'm not sure how much good it will do to keep on telling her. Perhaps the best thing to do is pray.
My 2 cents.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Mar 31st, 2007 08:33 pm |
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MitchyMitch wrote: For the most part, the discussion took place in love, both in my part and theirs. The discussion was moved to a "Heterodox" section, a section devoted to "unorthodox beliefs", which I find demeaning.
I would protest in no uncertain terms, and if it remained, I would leave. Faithful Catholics are obviously not welcomed there.
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MitchyMitch
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Snellville, Georgia USA |
| Posts: | 104 |
| First Name: | Mitch | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Independent Baptist and Southern Baptist...Now Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Mar 31st, 2007 09:00 pm |
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I did protest, in no uncertain terms. I also called someone out - not by name but by his PM to me that there was to be no prostelytizing of RC beliefs. In defense of the board, it does state in its rules section that it is a protestant board, and no proselyitizing of any faith expressions other than Evangelical protestant Christianity would be tolerated.
Funny, one of the moderators of the board is Catholic. I'm certain he stays on because of his ties to the college, where the board exists to be somewhat critical of PCC. He offers stealthy, pro-Catholic criticism when people unwarrantedly bash Catholicism, but he remains unheard in offering Catholic Apologetics in the "tooth-&-nail" debates. There are many protestants on the board who actually defend Catholicism against the likes of Fundamentalists.
Like this board, very few topics are subjects of intense debate. There is a lot of griping about the school, talk of current events, jokes, etc.
One extreme blessing came to me last night. I was PM'ed by a person who, with her husband, has decided to leave Protestantism altogether, and were going Orthodox. She said she very much appreciated seeing a Catholic viewpoint which is sorely lacking on the board, and seemed to agree with me on most every point I had made, especially on points of Authority, faith and works, etc.
So, the question is, as the Clash so eloquenlty put it, "Should I stay or shouldI go now?"
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Pax,
Mitch
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