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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 03:22 pm |
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Hello CH Family,
Where do I begin? (sigh :? ) When I read about those of you who are entering the Catholic Church this Easter, I rejoice. It seems that God has made a way for you without major turmoil in your lives. What a blessing! I have considered, as of late, that my journey across the Tiber and entrance into Christ's holy, apostolic Church, may not be without much trial and tribulation.
While at times my husband seems to be understanding toward my journey of faith, he still says things that deeply concern me. I have been thinking recently that the Lord may ask some very serious questions of me, should I desire to become Catholic. It seems as though He is causing me to consider the possibility of being willing to suffer for the sake of joining myself to His Church.
Recently my husband said again to me, very emphatically, "You will not become Catholic." Then on another occasion he said to me, "If you become Catholic, I will separate from you." Then on another occasion he said, "If you ever became Catholic, you would be at war with me." Then on another occasion, "If you ever decided to become a Catholic secretly, that would really anger me. That would seriously effect our relationship." And yesterday he talked about the "spirit of religion" that exists within the Catholic Church. He warned me that in my "desire to love religion" I may just "lose my salvation." Such comments can be quite disconcerting and troublesome to one's soul. Yet, I am not particularly emotional or upset. However, I do think that if my husband continues in this vein, he will become more and more resistant to my journey of faith. He has said all these things to me, while at the same time, I believe the Holy Spirit has spoken to Him to reconsider his attitude. Just a couple of weeks ago, my husband mentioned that he had a dream about Catholics and the Catholic Church. He heard, in that dream, as it were, a voice telling him that Catholics are Christians too. I couldn't help but believe that Jesus is trying to get through to him.
Another situation has also arisen that is causing me much concern. Not long ago, a man began attending our nondenominational church on a fairly regular basis. He moved to our area this past summer and has been attending our church more frequently as of late. Both my husband and I have had several conversations with him. I have come to realize more and more that he is anti-Catholic. Not just mildly anti-Catholic either. He confronted our pastor (alone) recently reguarding the mural of Christ at the front of our church. Each Sunday, after the collection, the ushers take the collection plates to the front of the church. Our pastor takes the collection plates and places them on what looks like an altar. We then sing as a congregation, "Praise God from whom all blessings flow...." Then the pastor proceeds to offer up prayer and thanks to God while facing the front of the church. When he does this, he is facing the mural of Christ. Well, this man (I will call him 'A') confronted him about praying to the mural of Christ on the wall. Basically, he wanted to know if the pastor was praying to the painting.
Another time, 'A' complained that we were having an Easter egg hunt for the children. He considers that pagan. He has had many "things" to say about what he perceives as wrong within the body of Christ. Often, he will drop an anti-Catholic phrase or reveal an anti-Catholic attitude.
The gist of it is that my husband really likes him. They have "hit it off" so to speak. Last night, 'A' called my husband. My husband had him on speaker phone, so I was able to hear the majority of the conversation. It looks as though 'A' and his wife and children might be coming over after church this Sunday for a short visit. And also, 'A' and my husband are planning to do some street evangelism next Saturday. (March 31st)
I am cringing at the thought of having to hear what I consider blatantanti-Catholic diatribes, or a least, conversation laced with inadvertant anti-Catholic statements. I need some help here. Should I be hospitable and a gracious hostess? This new found relationship really has me concerned. I don't want to sound paranoid, but I seriously have been wondering if the enemy (Satan) has set this up.
In my moments alone, I wonder whether or not this new relationship is from God or the devil. After all, my husband has finally found someone who is willing to evangelize and preach the gospel. But we have lived in this area ten years, and he hasn't been able to find anyone of like mind till now. Now, when I am on a journey toward the Catholic faith. And yet, I ask, how harmful can it be for them to preach the gospel to those who are lost? Then I think about the weak Catholics they might meet, or those Catholics who have not been educated well in their faith. Should my husband and 'A' meet them, I am certain they will attempt to dissuade them from their Catholic faith. I also am concerned that this relationship with 'A' will embolden my husband even more against the Catholic faith. He will now have strong support to oppose Catholicism.
While I have been concerned about other close Protestant friends, my concern about 'A' is far greater. This is just something I sense in my spirit. We have known our Protestant friends for many years, as I have said in the past, and I truly believe that many of them, while they may be disappointed in my journey toward Catholicism, will not condemn me as a heretic or cut off our friendship. 'A' seems to be far more anti-Catholic than any of our close Protestant friends.
Suffice it to say, I ask for your prayers. I don't know where this journey of faith will lead me, and I fear that I may not be strong enough spiritually to make that swim across the waters of the Tiber to the Church Christ founded. Instead, I see myself floundering in Protestantism for the rest of my days.
Love in Christ,
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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BodRod
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 840 |
| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 04:35 pm |
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Well ……… since you brought it up ……… I think it is time for you to make up your mind as to whether you are going to join the RCC or not. Your posting sounds like you are trying to please your husband and yourself at the same time. Since the two of you have different goals and different philosophies, that will be impossible. This is not a new problem. It was touched on in Matt. 6:24 and a related text is John 12:26.
Now …… on a more personal note; my wife started giving me a lot of static during my Journey, going clear back to when I was studying on my own. When she tried to push her point with statements similar to what your husband is using, I asked her if she would like me to help her pack or perhaps drop her off someplace like the bus depot or airport. That was nearly 3 years ago. I went on to jpin RCIA, complete RCIA, join the RCC and participate in our local ministries and to this date, I have NEVER heard another word about the situation.
There are a couple of crude folk sayings I could plug in here relating to making up one’s own mind but instead, I will wish you the best in whatever you decide.
____________________
Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 961 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 04:43 pm |
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Oh, Darlene, I do feel for you. I'm making this journey alone, but without resistance of the sort you're experiencing. Still, I must say, you have always seemed to me to be one of the strongest persons on this forum. I know I don't know you personally, but that's always been my impression. I might have a meltdown if my husband said that to me, but I think you have the strength to be patient, to continue following Jesus, the Truth, as God reveals it to you, and that your path will be clear, but only a step or two at a time. Don't worry; God knows what you need. I'm trusting Him to reveal the Truth to my husband and girls and to your husband, too.
Truth is Truth. You have to follow it, even if your steps are teeny tiny little things. Trust in God.
Blessings, Jill
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"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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Darlene
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 05:13 pm |
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BodRod wrote:
Well ……… since you brought it up ……… I think it is time for you to make up your mind as to whether you are going to join the RCC or not. Your posting sounds like you are trying to please your husband and yourself at the same time. Since the two of you have different goals and different philosophies, that will be impossible. This is not a new problem. It was touched on in Matt. 6:24 and a related text is John 12:26.
Now …… on a more personal note; my wife started giving me a lot of static during my Journey, going clear back to when I was studying on my own. When she tried to push her point with statements similar to what your husband is using, I asked her if she would like me to help her pack or perhaps drop her off someplace like the bus depot or airport. That was nearly 3 years ago. I went on to jpin RCIA, complete RCIA, join the RCC and participate in our local ministries and to this date, I have NEVER heard another word about the situation.
There are a couple of crude folk sayings I could plug in here relating to making up one’s own mind but instead, I will wish you the best in whatever you decide.
Rod,
I cannot threaten my husband with packing his bags or sending him on his way. For one, the situation is a bit different when one is the wife, as I am. Perhaps it is just me, but I feel your remarks to me seem to lack compassion. I am already more than cognizant of the fact that this journey of faith is not an easy one, and that it requires sacrifice. And yes, while there are certain doctrinal matters that I need to come to terms with, I cannot but admit that the Holy Spirit is drawing me to the Catholic Church.
Thanks for not writing the "crude folk sayings."
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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dobrodoc
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| Joined: | Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 21 |
| First Name: | Doc | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic to evangelical protestant to Catholic forever |
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Posted: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 05:39 pm |
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Dear Darlene:
At this point, all you can do is pray. I was an ardent anti-Catholic for years(not as vocal as your husband perhaps) and when my wife brought up the idea of returning to the Church, my response was"Christ is not the head of Church of pedophiles.."
5 years later I found myself swimming the tiber and blogging and witnessing daily about this wonderful Church. So God can change the way things are now, but it takes time, fasting prayer and ultimately the work of the Holy Spirit.
The thing that impressed me the most was my wife's change of heart and disposition as well as her lack of dogging me about conversion. She quietly prayed and did not hound me about conversion. Your marriage is a priority over your conversion to Catholicism and you are travelling the same road that many Saints have traveled over the centuries. Do not secretly convert since you will undermine your husband's trust and cause irreparable damage to the marriage.
There is a saint whose husband was completely opposed to her faith throughout their entire marriage and when she died of cancer, he read her private diary and God eventually brought him to faith and the priesthood!! Some other CHN'ers will know the book that this story tells about.
Regarding Mr. "A", I suggest showing him the love of Jesus and letting both he and your husband see Christ in what you do versus what you say. If you oppose their evangelism efforts, you will be considered "evil" for opposing "the gospel."
As hard as it is to wait to cross the Tiber, God knows your heart and his timing is always best. Please take heart and know that our prayers are with you.
If your husband gets to the point of wanting to speak to someone other than his wife,
we are not too far away,
dobrodoc(PD's husband)
____________________
http://www.crossed-the-tiber.blogspot.com
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BodRod
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 840 |
| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 05:58 pm |
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Darlene,
I don't see those types of comments as a threat of any sort. Instead, they brought into very sharp focus the seriousness of my intentions. Then, I followed throough with what I said I was going to do. Looking back, I think of my comments more as a promise than a threat AND I carried out my promise, to God, to my wife and to myself. 
____________________
Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 06:19 pm |
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BodRod wrote: Well ……… since you brought it up ……… I think it is time for you to make up your mind as to whether you are going to join the RCC or not. Your posting sounds like you are trying to please your husband and yourself at the same time. Since the two of you have different goals and different philosophies, that will be impossible. This is not a new problem. It was touched on in Matt. 6:24 and a related text is John 12:26.
Rod, not everyone has the ability to make that choice. For example, a woman who's spouse has been previously married requires his cooperation to obtain an annulment before she is eligible to join the Church, if she wishes to save her marriage. Our Church would never recommend destroying the "Domestic Church" if there is a way to preserve it.
Darlene has made her decision, but various factors have prevented her from implementing her decision. She can only pray that her situation will change gradually. Unfortunately, it may never change. I do know people who attend our church faithfully but may never be able to join because of problems with spouses. We can only trust that God knows and understands. Meanwhile, we encourage them to be as active in the Church as possible until the days of waiting are fulfilled.
The Church will never tell anyone it's time to make a decision to join the Church or get lost. Jesus is the shepherd of the sheep at the edge of the flock as well, and Peter is commanded to feed them as best he can, even if they cannot share the Eucharistic food.
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BodRod
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 840 |
| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 07:10 pm |
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cajunrick wrote:
Rod, not everyone has the ability to make that choice.
Right, and that is part of my point. I think she has more on her plate than just selecting a Church. However, that is enough from me on the matter. After all, I don't want to appear totally obnoxious, just partly. 
____________________
Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Truthseeker
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| Joined: | Wed Oct 4th, 2006 |
| Location: | Costa Mesa, California USA |
| Posts: | 457 |
| First Name: | Laura | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | lapsed and returned CATHOLIC!!!!!! |
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Posted: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 11:28 pm |
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Dear Darlene,
Oh, do I know how you feel - and fear. My husband is, quite frankly, a pagan (as I was until 2001). In my own circumstances, I have changed so dramatically - become a holy roller - and disrupted my marriage completely. I tip toed around for years, trying to crawl to Jesus, while chained be the fear of my husband abanding me. I begged here, for years, for everyone to understand why I couldn't even attend Mass regularly, due to the fact that my husband wasn't happy that I was leaving every Sunday, without him.
It has taken my miscarriage and the loss of fear of being abandoned (after all, I feel I have been emotionally abandoned already) for me to stand up for myself and my right to worship God as I believe I should. That being said, I am still careful not to rock the boat to roughly, and I try not to draw fire.
It is tough, I know, being committed to two loves. In my case, it was my husband and Christ. In your case, it is your husband and Christ's church. And besides not wanting to ruin a marriage for personal reasons, I have to say that Jesus doesn't really want us all to have to abandon our marital commitments out of love for Him. I know He said to leave mother, father, etc..., but how does destroying our marriage in His Name bring Hime glory?
Have you been struggling with those questions, too? I know it's very difficult. I'll keep you in my prayers.
Love, Laura
____________________
Lord, please make my will your Will!
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Juan
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| Joined: | Tue Oct 17th, 2006 |
| Location: | Texas USA |
| Posts: | 247 |
| First Name: | unregister | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | unregister |
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Posted: Sat Mar 24th, 2007 10:54 am |
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Then I think about the weak Catholics they might meet, or those Catholics who have not been educated well in their faith. Should my husband and 'A' meet them, I am certain they will attempt to dissuade them from their Catholic faith. I also am concerned that this relationship with 'A' will embolden my husband even more against the Catholic faith. He will now have strong support to oppose Catholicism.
As for me, I wouldn't worry about the weak Catholics whom they might "save". If they do not already practice their faith, they are probably "lukewarm". And you know what the Bible says about the lukewarm:
Apocalypse 3
16 But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth.
In my opinion, they WILL begin to "save" them if they can move them from that condition.
James 5
20 He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.
However, we can help you with rebuttals and responses if they ever turn their "saving" efforts towards you.
As for BodRod's comments. It seems you have already received such a warning from your husband. Steel yourself to the possibility that you may have to endure that sacrifice for God. But God does not put more on you than you can endure. Ultimately, as much as you love your husband, God loves you even more.
Finally, I would say, that the person who recommended much fasting and prayer and witnessing by your works hit the nail on the head. I second that motion.
We will keep you, all of you, in our prayers.
Sincerely,
Juan
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DavidVS
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 46 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Presbyterian - On the Journey to Rome |
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Posted: Sat Mar 24th, 2007 10:20 pm |
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BodRod wrote:
There are a couple of crude folk sayings I could plug in here relating to making up one’s own mind but instead, I will wish you the best in whatever you decide.
Thanks for not posting the crude folk sayings.
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mg57
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Connecticut USA |
| Posts: | 234 |
| First Name: | mg57 | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Infant Baptised Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Mar 24th, 2007 11:55 pm |
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Darlene -
What you are going through now, in Catholic terms, is called the "purgative way". To save you from a lot of writing here, please use this link to an excellent 30 min. audio program with Fr. Benedict Groeschel about what you are experiencing now.
http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/resolve.asp?rafile=iq_1461.ra
As a follow-up may I recommend an excellent book, "The Ordinary Path to Holiness" by R. Thomas Richard, PhD.
Here are some reviews / recommendations for it -
"Many converts struggle in the transition from their previous spiritualities into the sometimes debilitating width, depth, breadth and height of Catholic mystical spirituality. Where does one begin? I believe that this is the best summary of basic Catholic spirituality I have found yet, and therefore is a great place to begin." --Marcus Grodi, Founder of The Coming Home Network, EWTN
"Profound and practical The Ordinary Path to Holiness shares an approach to the spiritual life that integrates Scripture, liturgy and doctrine. This book feeds both head and heart." --Scott Hahn, Founder of the Institute of Applied Biblical Studies
"The Ordinary Path to Holiness will be an immense help in understanding the spiritual journey for anyone who is beginning to make progress in the spiritual life. It will also be a good review for those familiar with the Catholic literature on this important subject." --Fr. Benedict Groeschel, CFR
While we may not be in your shoes and completely understand your situation, be assured of our prayers.
God bless.
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cdunh
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 20th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arkansas USA |
| Posts: | 30 |
| First Name: | Cal | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist to Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Mar 25th, 2007 05:16 pm |
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| Wanting to offer a helpful suggestion, I sense that you have learned to not expect any quick resolution to the issues involved. Yet, there should be some "small steps" that build toward wholeness and "integrity". I have wondered if there are some credible resources in your household such as a catechism and a Bible (with all the books included.) Rather than be confrontational, an attitude of being "curious" might cause reflection. For example, when disparaging remarks are made (about Catholics or about traditional religion) would it be possible to ask what St. Paul had to say about tradition or what Jesus had to say about the Church? Most people are guided in their actions by a need for acceptance, love, and appreciation. All want to be respected. It may be that the demonstration of Christian virtues may be a means of avoidance of oppositional confrontation. I would not recommend "drawing a line in the sand" but work on trying to "draw a circle" instead. Finding agreements and working toward "truth" is easier than finding disagreements and digging battle trenches. I have said a prayer for you and for your situation.
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twiggymoo
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| Joined: | Fri Oct 13th, 2006 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
| Posts: | 38 |
| First Name: | Twiggymoo | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nazarene, Free Methodist, Baptist..Romeward bound |
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Posted: Mon Mar 26th, 2007 11:26 am |
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Yesterday, on the way to our baptist church, my dw asked if she could ask me a question. I thought, oh boy, here it comes. She said I know you will be honest with me. She asked, how do you pray. Knowing how she would react if I told her I prayed the Rosary, I couldn't do it. I just said I pray the Lord's Prayer and then for the needs of others like her, the kids, friends, etc...Then she talked about her mother in a nursing home who is critical of other old people there that pray the Rosary all day long wasting their time, etc...I didn't say anything. It seems when I am at the point of confessing my Catholic faith - she comes out with her strong anti-Catholic comments, ridiculing things Catholic.
I can identify with Darlene's fears of never crossing the Tiber. However, I don't think ultimatums are the way to go in these matters. We need Grace and Patience - praying always.
Regards,
Don
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BodRod
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 840 |
| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Mon Mar 26th, 2007 12:49 pm |
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twiggymoo wrote:
She asked, how do you pray.
That is where I am with my wife. She is now starting to ask questions about the RCC now and then. I interpret that behavior as progress.
I wish you all the best in your Journey "toward Rome".
____________________
Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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twiggymoo
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| First Name: | Twiggymoo | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nazarene, Free Methodist, Baptist..Romeward bound |
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Posted: Mon Mar 26th, 2007 01:41 pm |
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Bodrod,
Thanks. She is asking these questions more frequently and also talks about Catholic people where she works, bringing up the subject to probe my thoughts/beliefs. This is where I am uneasy. I usually let the conversation continue on her terms - mostly being as agreeable as I can be in my responses, yet keeping her in doubt that I really go along. This can't continue forever though!
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BodRod
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 840 |
| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Mon Mar 26th, 2007 02:10 pm |
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twiggymoo wrote: Bodrod,
I usually let the conversation continue on her terms - mostly being as agreeable as I can be in my responses ..........
That is a problem area for me. I am trying to keep my responses in direct application to the question. I have a tendency to over respond. You may know the type. You ask us what time it is and we end up telling how the watch is made. So, in a sense, this Q & A process is informative for her and good practice for me.
Hang in there!
____________________
Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Darlene
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Mon Mar 26th, 2007 03:14 pm |
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Truthseeker wrote: Dear Darlene,
Oh, do I know how you feel - and fear. My husband is, quite frankly, a pagan (as I was until 2001). In my own circumstances, I have changed so dramatically - become a holy roller - and disrupted my marriage completely. I tip toed around for years, trying to crawl to Jesus, while chained be the fear of my husband abanding me. I begged here, for years, for everyone to understand why I couldn't even attend Mass regularly, due to the fact that my husband wasn't happy that I was leaving every Sunday, without him.
It has taken my miscarriage and the loss of fear of being abandoned (after all, I feel I have been emotionally abandoned already) for me to stand up for myself and my right to worship God as I believe I should. That being said, I am still careful not to rock the boat to roughly, and I try not to draw fire.
It is tough, I know, being committed to two loves. In my case, it was my husband and Christ. In your case, it is your husband and Christ's church. And besides not wanting to ruin a marriage for personal reasons, I have to say that Jesus doesn't really want us all to have to abandon our marital commitments out of love for Him. I know He said to leave mother, father, etc..., but how does destroying our marriage in His Name bring Hime glory?
Have you been struggling with those questions, too? I know it's very difficult. I'll keep you in my prayers.
Love, Laura
Thanks for your understanding and prayers, Laura.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Darlene
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Mon Mar 26th, 2007 03:36 pm |
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JillD wrote: Oh, Darlene, I do feel for you. I'm making this journey alone, but without resistance of the sort you're experiencing. Still, I must say, you have always seemed to me to be one of the strongest persons on this forum. I know I don't know you personally, but that's always been my impression. I might have a meltdown if my husband said that to me, Jill, what is peculiar is that at one point, my husband will say things that seem to draw the line, and then at other points, he will say things that seem as if he doesn't mind my interest in the Catholic faith. For example, yesterday, the subject of tithing came up. My husband was explaining why he disagrees with the strict 10% of one's income teaching. (some churches teach that it should be 10% of one's gross income, not net) Anyway, I said to him, the Catholics teach differently about that. I went on to tell him that there is a sign on the wall just outside the entrance to St. Lukes Catholic Church. (where I attend) It says "Give of your Time, Talent and Treasure." I told him that Catholics believe that tithing involves the time we give to serve others in the body of Christ or to minister in Jesus' name, using the talents He has given us, and giving our money to support the church. His response, though slightly humorous in tone, was surprising to me. He said, "If you keep talking that I might just become Catholic." Now I realize he wasn't responding seriously. However, his response wasn't a negative one. And often, when I mention what Catholic teaching is on a particular matter, he does listen. While I think he doesn't mind as much that I am learning about the Catholic faith, I do think he is opposed to me becoming a Catholic. That step is just way too much for him right now. but I think you have the strength to be patient, to continue following Jesus, the Truth, as God reveals it to you, and that your path will be clear, but only a step or two at a time. Don't worry; God knows what you need. I'm trusting Him to reveal the Truth to my husband and girls and to your husband, too.
Truth is Truth. You have to follow it, even if your steps are teeny tiny little things. Trust in God.
Blessings, Jill
Jill, I think that dealing with Fundamentalists and Evangelicals is a different animal (or a whole different ball of wax)  than mainline Protestants. As I have said before, Fundies and Evangelicals are tough cookies to crack.
Thanks for your post.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Darlene
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Posted: Mon Mar 26th, 2007 03:40 pm |
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dobrodoc wrote: Dear Darlene:
At this point, all you can do is pray. I was an ardent anti-Catholic for years(not as vocal as your husband perhaps) and when my wife brought up the idea of returning to the Church, my response was"Christ is not the head of Church of pedophiles.."
5 years later I found myself swimming the tiber and blogging and witnessing daily about this wonderful Church. So God can change the way things are now, but it takes time, fasting prayer and ultimately the work of the Holy Spirit.
The thing that impressed me the most was my wife's change of heart and disposition as well as her lack of dogging me about conversion. She quietly prayed and did not hound me about conversion. Your marriage is a priority over your conversion to Catholicism and you are travelling the same road that many Saints have traveled over the centuries. Do not secretly convert since you will undermine your husband's trust and cause irreparable damage to the marriage.
There is a saint whose husband was completely opposed to her faith throughout their entire marriage and when she died of cancer, he read her private diary and God eventually brought him to faith and the priesthood!! Some other CHN'ers will know the book that this story tells about.
Regarding Mr. "A", I suggest showing him the love of Jesus and letting both he and your husband see Christ in what you do versus what you say. If you oppose their evangelism efforts, you will be considered "evil" for opposing "the gospel."
As hard as it is to wait to cross the Tiber, God knows your heart and his timing is always best. Please take heart and know that our prayers are with you.
If your husband gets to the point of wanting to speak to someone other than his wife,
we are not too far away,
dobrodoc(PD's husband)
Thanks so much for the encouragement, Doc.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Darlene
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Posted: Mon Mar 26th, 2007 03:59 pm |
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cdunh wrote: Wanting to offer a helpful suggestion, I sense that you have learned to not expect any quick resolution to the issues involved. CD, you've got that right. Yet, there should be some "small steps" that build toward wholeness and "integrity". I have wondered if there are some credible resources in your household such as a catechism and a Bible (with all the books included.) As far as literature, I have the Catholic Catechism and the NAB Bible. I did mention to my husband, who loves the RSV version of the Bible, and was very disappointed when the American Bible Society stopped printing it, that Ignatius Press still prints the RSV. He was very interested in getting one, even though I told him it included the "Catholic books" as well. I have told him that the first Bible included those Catholic books and the Protestants tossed them out. He had no negative response. I think he believed me. Rather than be confrontational, an attitude of being "curious" might cause reflection. For example, when disparaging remarks are made (about Catholics or about traditional religion) would it be possible to ask what St. Paul had to say about tradition or what Jesus had to say about the Church? I did do that recently. One way to appeal to a Fundamentalist/Evangelical is use scripture. I brought up the verse in James 1:27, "Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction and to keep oneself unspotted from the world." I've told him about the and/both approach of Catholicism as opposed to the either/or approach of Protestantism. Most people are guided in their actions by a need for acceptance, love, and appreciation. All want to be respected. It may be that the demonstration of Christian virtues may be a means of avoidance of oppositional confrontation. I would not recommend "drawing a line in the sand" but work on trying to "draw a circle" instead. Finding agreements and working toward "truth" is easier than finding disagreements and digging battle trenches. I have said a prayer for you and for your situation.
Just to clarify things a bit, (cyberspace has its limitations, such as voice inflections, body language, tone, eye contact  ) my husband and I have not had what one might call an argument about Catholicism. What I mean is, we don't raise our voices at each other, we discuss things in a normal tone. Sometimes he brings the subject of Catholicism up, sometimes I do. He even acknowledges that he sees a change occuring in me, which is for the better. I'm not sure, however, how much he attributes this change to my faith journey toward Catholicism.
Thanks so much for your prayers.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Darlene
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Posted: Mon Mar 26th, 2007 04:18 pm |
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twiggymoo wrote:
Yesterday, on the way to our baptist church, my dw asked if she could ask me a question. I thought, oh boy, here it comes. She said I know you will be honest with me. She asked, how do you pray. Knowing how she would react if I told her I prayed the Rosary, I couldn't do it. I really know what you mean! The other day, my husband found the box which holds my rosary. He picked it up and shook it in front of me, with a chiding look on his face. Then he acted like he was going to hide it somewhere so I couldn't use it. I found it on the counter top later on.
I just said I pray the Lord's Prayer and then for the needs of others like her, the kids, friends, etc...Then she talked about her mother in a nursing home who is critical of other old people there that pray the Rosary all day long wasting their time, etc...I didn't say anything. It seems when I am at the point of confessing my Catholic faith - she comes out with her strong anti-Catholic comments, ridiculing things Catholic. Yep, I can relate to this as well. Sometimes it's like walking on a tight rope. I can't respond with Catholic enthusiasm, or the whole conversation will lose its balance. On the other hand, I can't remain silent or he'll think I'm agreeing with him. "A just balance is from the Lord."
I can identify with Darlene's fears of never crossing the Tiber. However, I don't think ultimatums are the way to go in these matters. We need Grace and Patience - praying always. Ultimatums would not work with my husband. Anyway, I'm not the ultimatum type. Honestly, I prefer to be at peace with all men, as the verse says, "If it is possible, as much as it depends on you, live peaceably with all men." Romans 12:18
Thanks for your post, Don.
Regards,
Don
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Mon Mar 26th, 2007 04:30 pm |
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:?
Darlene,
Boy, what a double-whammy you've been hit with! First, your husband does a reversal on your acceptance into the CC. Then along comes this religious hayseed, polluting your husband with bigotry dressed in spiritual drag.
I'm blunt here because I believe bluntness is what's needed when it comes to describing this new person in your local church. He's got a lot of chutzpah that's for sure challenging this and that. One can imagine him walking into a Catholic church with a baseball bat swinging at all the statues and stained glass, similar to what Cromwell's barbarians did to both Anglican and Catholic churches.
Every now and then a person comes into the Baptist church my family attends and while he can be a nice and gentlemanly presence, sometimes his questions are phrased in completely argumentative tones, as if he believes the Almighty ordained him to play the devil's advocate in every conversation, class, whatever, he enters into. He went too far one Sunday morning and apparently, he got the message his style of debate (for an outsider) was impolite and disrespectful.
It never occurs to people like these two fellows that they are seen as trying to be good, but only in the worst way. These guys are Pharisees, ever so eager to pick apart at what THEY deem unfit for Christians to practice, believe and share -- but they have little else than the strictest interpretations of scripture -- and all too much energy making sure that everyone else will toe their lines.
Easter egg hunts and a mural of our Lord bugs this guy? He needs a life. And, if he's got a wife, well, God help her, too. If this guy ever had a childhood, most likely he was the last kid picked for a team, and was beaten out of every egg when he was young. Well, m'be he picked up a few squished jelly beans. Maybe he had a childhood and some contemporary Pharisee rubbed it and all memory of it out in quick fashion.
And, of course your pastor isn't praying to the mural anymore than he's offering gold to St. Moloch of the Megachurches.
I'd love to have just a few minutes with this auslander. Not to beat the crap out of him, but to gently (but succinctly) show him what his heartlessness and boorish behavior has "contributed" thus far. Insofar as sharing his views with your husband, presumably about the error of your desire to cross THAT river in Rome -- well, sounds like this fellow ought to read up on laws concerning alienation of affection.
As for your husband's change of heart, perhaps it's less that than his nervousness over your ACTUAL conversion. Goofy as it sounds now, and I'm really upset at myself for it 20 + years later, I vocally expressed fears to my wife when she mentioned she was thinking of becoming Catholic. Well, I wasn't exactly a good Catholic back then and had a LOT of growing to do, even in more ways than the spiritual variety. I thought she'd turn into one of what my late mother used to say about Anglican converts to Catholicism: more Catholic than the Pope.
Yes, that's when religion becomes the religion: not the real thing. Besides, religion of and by itself is only the chassis for the rest of the vehicle. But if the doctrine/dogma frame bent just even a little bit to "suit the times," guess what happens to the rest of the vehicle? (It certainly won't pass God's inspection and if we continue driving it, well the gates of hell will be opened wide enough for it.)
"Religion" is not the boogeyman, strawman or any other kind of thing (some) Protestants like to make it out to be. And, their perspective of "religion" as Catholics, the Orthodox, liturgical/hierarchical Protestant churches have no trouble with, cuts directly across their preferred non-liturgical/congregational/contemporary style of worship. They want direct access to Jesus and this we know is perfectly fine and certainly necessary for all Christians. Yet, I've NEVER known a deacon, priest, bishop, archbishop, cardinal and pope to interfere with an individual praying to God saying the Sinner's Prayer. We have a version of it in the Mass, "Lord forgive me, for I have sinned. I'm not worthy ..."
We have a more identifiable "churchy" structure. Okay. And it's okay if we seem more regulated. But I don't understand why there is more personal protest about a structured religious entity than the enormous and sometimes even more personally invasive presence of government regulations from secular (and often anti-conscience) federal and state regulatory agencies.
You might want to try explaining to your husband that if Catholicism appears to be more "religious" in the sense that's somewhat "legalistic" and Pharisiacal with all the canon laws, etc., that most Catholics may never, ever, come into a situation where serious canon lawyers will have to sort out what's going wrong in their spiritual/church lives and activities. You may also want to point out that all the problems with the so-called "dissident" theologians arose from their excessively liberal interpretations of scripture to the point that their positions didn't even resemble what Protestants themselves would recognize as "Christian." The recent Fr. Sobrino, SJ issue comes immediately to mind because of his blatantly unorthodox views that Jesus' humanity and divinity are separate, even unto the point that His humanity was superior in nature over the latter. That's a mouthful and I'm sorry for it, but I tried to pack it all in one sentence, not an encyclical.
Religion, you might explain, is like mortar to cinderblocks,tie-downs to roofs, regulations for mines, and guardrails for highways. Without what so many people (unnecessarily) fear as religious encroachment on their personal viewpoints, etc., the organized structure of a religion (in our case, directly founded by THE ONLY GOD & CREATOR OF ALL THINGS FOR ALL TIME) is designed to protect the faithful from the relatively miniscule, but overly influential, elite crowd of theologians who all want to be the pope without all that it takes from God's perspective to make even a modestly good pope. Cardinal Ratzinger fought tooth and nail for whom he called the "little people" who are unaware of the dangers to one's faith contained within the much ballyhooed theological tracts and "best seller" dissident books that are so cleverly packaged by greedy publishers.
Calling 99.9999999 of the Church "little people" wasn't intended to be a slight. Heck, I took it as a compliment because it's the so-called "little people," with the hearts and minds of obedient children that'll find it easier to reach Heaven than the pumped up fat egos of the Ivory Tower(s.)
I honestly believe your husband loves you dearly, even more than life itself, as any good husband should. He's as nervous as a kid receiving his First Communion after being told he'd get the crap kicked out of him by his older brother, who, as luck would have it, would be the altar boy handling the paten. God was certainly with me that morning when I didn't flub it then, or the afternoon in a hot Yankee Cong. church (110 pct humidity) when I said "I do." He's probably afraid you're going to reinvent yourself into the lay version of the gliding Mother Superior with the lonnnng metal-edged ruler of the orphanage the Blues Brothers tried to save in the same movie.
If he even comes close to thinking that, NEVER let him catch a glimpse of any of EWTN's Teresa of Avila mini-series. That Carmelite approach to the real old time religion even scares conservative Catholics!
As for "A": I'd do whatever possible within the laws of both man and God to get this guy out of yours and your husband's lives, not to mention your local congregation's activities. He's the kind of guy Satan employs to stir things up only for the sake of raising hell to see how easily we can mess up our churches. These guys are the bane of all Christian branches. No, they're the bane of all religions: period. This man is putting a wedge between you and your husband and the timing is more than coincidential.
When I was at the "Iron Shapes Iron" men's conference this weekend, there was a man from Oregon, Paul McLaughlin, (or Laughlin?) who authored books about no more "Christian Nice Guy(s)" who were such pushovers (with a lot of baggage they were often afraid to let out) that their wives had enough and in some cases, filed for divorce. Whereas he told men not to losetheir temper and argue for the sake of arguing, he also told them it was vitally necessary for them to stand up for themselves, and not just for themselves, but their home lives and marriages, especially if their wives were unable to see the same problems and the dangers of not addressing them. Common sense. Right? So rare is common sense in marriage (and certainly churches!)
Stand up for yourself, but only in the most loving way possible. You'll earn your husband's greater respect on top of what he should already have for you now. Let him also know in the most sensitive way that his new buddy really isn't a friend if he's putting wedges between you two that might not have been allowed to be put back in if he hadn't arrived on the scene to manipulate your husband's (unfounded fears F false E "evidence" A appearing R "real.")
Sorry to go on so long, but this is the type of situation that really gets to me. I've been there in the same situation you already are. Ruth has quietly accepted my decision to rejoin the Church again. But I can't imagine the kind of pain you must be feeling now.
May God Bless you and your husband, forgive all, and bring about a peaceful resolution -- hopefully with you joining the Catholic Church on Easter Vigil.
Steven
____________________
James Michael Curley to a young Thomas “Tip” O’Neill -- “Son, it’s nice to be important, but it’s more important to be nice.”
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