| Author | Post |
|---|
Luke12:48
Member
| Joined: | Sat Sep 30th, 2006 |
| Location: | Southeast, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 120 |
| First Name: | Kate | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle catholic, left for many years, returned June 2006 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Mar 28th, 2007 11:47 pm |
|
A while back, the article mentioned above was the subject of posts. Was anyone else who read the article curious enough to read the books written by both Dawkins and Collins? Reading both provides some interesting questions but not necessarily on Catholicism but if anyone is interested, I would like to take such a discussion outside this forum.
A few of my biblical questions or some of the thoughts on the writings of the church fathers may make it here later but some of the philosophical questions are more pressing now.
The books were The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins and The Language of God by Francis Collins
|
|
|
cdunh
Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 20th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arkansas USA |
| Posts: | 30 |
| First Name: | Cal | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist to Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Mar 29th, 2007 05:24 pm |
|
| Thanks for the invitation. If you can cite the article to which you refer, I would like to review it. I will secure the Dawkins and Collins books and get back to you. Cdunh
|
|
|
cdunh
Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 20th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arkansas USA |
| Posts: | 30 |
| First Name: | Cal | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist to Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Mar 29th, 2007 05:28 pm |
|
A post script to my preceding post... Have you seen the exciting book by Anthony Zinni: THE SCIENCE BEFORE SCIENCE? (Authors Press, 2005)
Cdunh
|
|
|
Luke12:48
Member
| Joined: | Sat Sep 30th, 2006 |
| Location: | Southeast, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 120 |
| First Name: | Kate | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle catholic, left for many years, returned June 2006 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Mar 31st, 2007 12:28 am |
|
Here is the Time link
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1555132-1,00.html
THe article wasn't great but it was enough to prompt me to get the books.
I really liked Collins' book as it says what I have been trying to say to my homeschool co-op for the last year.I am teaching science to a group of Christians that range from Catholic to extremely literal creationist evangelicals. It has been quite a dance to stay off toes and yet keep it within the realm of science. He advocates science and faith being compatable and even quotes PJP II.
Dawkins on the other hand claims to logically analyze the existence of God and "prove" atheism. What cracks me up is that there are major flaws in his logic--the same ones he says Aquinas is guilty of! The most he could show support for (let alone prove) is being agnostic but his proofs never even get close to athiest.
Anyway, what is really nice about reading them together is that they touch on many of the same points so you get two sides of some of the arguments. It definately left me with plenty to think about.
I am curious to see if anyone else finds them as interesting.
I read the Zinni book a long time ago. I don't remember anything particularly grabbing me but it was one that I do actually remember as helpful. (I tend to read alot and move on quickly)
I'm looking forward to any comments.
Kate
|
|
|
Darlene
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Mar 31st, 2007 02:34 am |
|
Richard Dawkins is my son's hero, now that he has deconverted from his Christian faith. I should become familiar with him, so I can have a lively, as well as profitable debate with my son.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
|
|
|
cdunh
Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 20th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arkansas USA |
| Posts: | 30 |
| First Name: | Cal | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist to Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Mar 31st, 2007 09:29 am |
|
Kate,
I have enjoyed reading some of Dawkins' writings as well as Collins'. Though retired now, I still read some in the Philosophy of Science area. I like the lucidity of Dawkins' His "reductio ad absurdum" stands on its own internal merit. Collins, who I approach with greater affinity, expresses the ideas on "faith and science" which I taught my university students for almost 40 years. Collins' commencement address to the University of Virginia (2000?) is a good primer to begin looking at his views. Though dated now, I have always appreciated the work of Pierre Teillard (de Chardin). I enjoyed a Teillard biography ("Pillars of Fire", I think is the title.) It is a quick read. (I do agree with Dawkins when he, though arrogantly, declines to "debate fundamentalists and creationists". Not because of fear of the contest, but because it is not productive to do so. ) Dawkins' views seem to be devoid of "love" (and are, presumptively, uncomplicated by "hope"). Collins, equally rigorous in thought as is Dawkins, "fits" more comfortably with my faith, hope, and love. Two things are missing in Dawkins' views (it seems to me). He ignores important historical evidence which is: "Christ has died, Christ is risen". (Because of this he does not have the hope that "Christ will come again.") The second thing is that he misses "miracles". The most objective of standards of science making, to be complete, must also recognize the historicity of miracles. The Church has clearly stated that there is unity of truth and, thereby notes the "harmony" which ultimately exists between nature and divinity (or "science and religion".) The soteriology of wisdom gives more hope than does "science in a vacuum." It also accounts for more of the facts (I propose.) Now I will read "The God Delusion" and get back to you.
Cdunh
|
|
|
Br_Carlo
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Tyler, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 150 |
| First Name: | Br_Carlo (Vince Brach) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Episcopalian, CATHOLIC |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Mar 31st, 2007 11:44 am |
|
God's peace. As a professional biologist and teacher, I appreciate what Dawkins has to say when he writes on biology, especially ant social behavior. But when he strays away from the area where science holds sway (the natural world), he is "off the reservation" and begins to make laughable mistakes.
Dawkins and other "God debunkers" always start with the presupposition that there is no God. Therefore, it's no surprise that they don't find him. All of us have presuppositions; we always have some sort of agenda. The real delusion, then, is not God--as Dawkins imagines--but imagining that we begin our thoughts from a position of pure reason unaffected by presuppositions, creaturely limitations, and unfortunately our sinfulness. A priest friend of mine put it this way: "Atheists search for God the same way that burglars search for cops."
Since we're talking about good science/Christianity books, don't forget Belief in God in an Age of Science by John Polkinghorne (Yale, 1998). Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~
|
|
|
Luke12:48
Member
| Joined: | Sat Sep 30th, 2006 |
| Location: | Southeast, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 120 |
| First Name: | Kate | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle catholic, left for many years, returned June 2006 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Mar 31st, 2007 01:59 pm |
|
H i Darlene,
You might actually want to read Collins first as he addresses some of Dawkins' arguments.
I can see how Dawkins can influence anyone of a scientific or logical mind. He has his points but as someone else said, starts with the premise and sees nothing else. It also doesn't help that he can be rather arrogant and condescending in defending his position. His credibility as a scientist is dimished by the fact that he is no longer open to wherever the evidence may lead. He has reached his conclusion and cannot be moved. A scientist must step outside his personal idea of what he thinks or wants the conclusion to be and try to evaluate objectively. Granted that is difficult....
I see great irony in the fact that the pastor at my parish is more of a scientist than Dawkins in that he can recognize the possibility that he could be wrong (has great faith that he is not) but mentioned long ago that "If they ever find the (Jesus') bones, the jig is up" Of course he took quite a bit of teasing when the Tomb of Jesus was on TV. 
Dawkins is probably not the best reading for someone without a very solid faith or at least Collins should be read first. I know there are many good authors I have not yet touched but I still feel compelled to read things like this. Debate has always been a good way for me to learn. I have recently wished that when I was younger (and followed many of Dawkins' lines of thought) that someone had stepped in and played the Collins role in my learning process. Even years of Catholic school did not give me the background to fill in the other side of the debate. Science and God were incompatable early in grade school and all my religion texts offered at the time were stories of saints and memorizing prayers--not very effective. Even now, I still struggled through his book and will read it again and pick it apart. I don't know how old your son is but I can PM you with any thoughts as I go back through. I would love to be able to fill that role for someone else.
Good luck
Kate
|
|
|
Luke12:48
Member
| Joined: | Sat Sep 30th, 2006 |
| Location: | Southeast, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 120 |
| First Name: | Kate | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle catholic, left for many years, returned June 2006 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Mar 31st, 2007 02:45 pm |
|
Br_Carlo--I think we all have our perspective that is hard to shed but I also think that with some effort, you can step outside and play devil's advocate with yourself. Any good scientist should be able to do this. Dawkins' does not and therefore makes those "laughable mistakes" The Polkinghorn is not one I have seen yet --off to the library...
cdunh---I will look for more from Collins as I am very curious about his views. I am most curious to know if he ever considered Catholicism at all. He says that his need to evaluate for himself started him on the path to faith so I can't imagine that he would not evaluate the different "flavors' of Christianity as well.
I (more than you can know) understand Dawkins' when he will not debate literal creationists and yet I struggle as a teacher with the idea of giving up on some bright kids.
(vent here--you may wish to skip ahead if you are a literal creationist)
I have taught at the university level, corporate training, in a healthcare environment and all the way down to grade school and junior high in co-op and homeschool settings. The one thing I have never done is taught in a public school and had to struggle with the frustrations I hear about with kids who don't want to learn or are violent or whatever. I actually love teaching even though I didn't start out as or ever plan to be a teacher (I used to think that those who can do and those who can't teach--maybe I just didn't have many good teachers but I honestly believed that)
I have had some who want to learn more than others and have fairly high standards which can sometimes lead to frustration and challenges (and even calls from the mommies and daddies of college students!!) but I have never been so frustrated as to want to quit teaching completely --until now.
I am in a co-op where last year, I was the only Catholic Christian in an mixed Christian co-op (ok Rick?) and taught elementary science and high school physics and we had a wonderful year. This year, 3 other Catholic families joined and I moved to teaching earth science and anatomy to junior high. It has been like walking a tightrope with trying not to offend anyone's religious beliefs and yet teach science. These children are at the age where it is time to begin thinking for themselves and getting them to do so is hard (in any setting) but here I see some really bright kids who could offer much to the field of science and have talent for grasping concepts and could excel but the parents consider the Bible to be the only source document worth considering. I certainly did not teach them as "well" as their parents would have wanted and also failed the Catholic members of the class as they did not get exposed to all the options even though their parents did not object.
For next year, I have the option of teaching the same kids and the high school group a joint class on marine biology (less controversial area to be sure) but I have also been offered a paid position (much needed at this point) teaching labs to a gifted junior high and high school cyber-blend (one morning a week or so --I could continue homeschooling my younger ones). For now, I am planning to do both as I do not want to give up on these kids but the choice between a highly motivated class open to ideas and debate vs another year of potential frustration doesn't seem like such a tough choice to make. (OK -done venting now)
Quoting PJP II to Evangelical Christians was not really an option for advancing my case on teaching science. Hmmm--maybe I can have Collins be required reading for the parents.....
|
|
|
Darlene
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Apr 1st, 2007 07:20 pm |
|
Kate,
Sounds like you're dealing with "The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it" kind of Christians. 
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
|
|
|
mrsbmoo
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 344 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | former Methodist. RCA, Presbyterian, Holiness, Wesleyan... Catholic as of June ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Apr 1st, 2007 10:25 pm |
|
I was reading an article from Yahoo news yesterday saying how some atheists were accusing Dawkins of being too mean spirited in his defense of atheism. They felt that is it didn't give a positive impression of humanism because humanism is supposed to be humans being the most virtuous and good since they have no God to fall back on. It was an interesting prospective and I admit, Dawkins seems like a very angry man.
I sympathize with Kate and her teaching delima. I taught in a private classical school(sponsored by the Reformed Episcopal church but having students from a variety of backgrounds) which had chosen a Bob Jones curriculum, which is "young Earth" to the point of ridiculousness. My solution was to have the kids(who were 8-10 grade) go home and ask their parents what their family believed and write me a paper explaining it. Then they shared what each of their families believed. That way I didn't contradict any parents but the kids got a chance to think about the fact that other Christians believed different things.
____________________
Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 13 months and 17
|
|
|
Darlene
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Apr 2nd, 2007 04:32 pm |
|
Becky,
Can you direct me as to where I can find that article?
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
|
|
|
mrsbmoo
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 344 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | former Methodist. RCA, Presbyterian, Holiness, Wesleyan... Catholic as of June ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Apr 2nd, 2007 04:39 pm |
|
I am going to try to post the link. I tried twice yesterday and my internet was acting up due to cloud cover and I failed. Here goes:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070331/ap_on_re_us/atheists_vs__atheists_2
____________________
Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 13 months and 17
|
|
|
Darlene
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Apr 2nd, 2007 09:14 pm |
|
Hmmm....atheist fundamentalists. I like that term. 
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
|
|
|
mg57
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Connecticut USA |
| Posts: | 234 |
| First Name: | mg57 | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Infant Baptised Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Apr 2nd, 2007 09:30 pm |
|
In this discussion topic I'd like to add an author from whom I've benefitted a great deal from, - Mortimer J. Adler
http://www.nationalreview.com/buckley/buckley062901.shtml
Perhaps some of you may recall his appearances over the years on William F. Buckley Jrs' television program "Firing Line".
For someone such as myself with a limited academic backround in philosophy, two of his books ( linked below) would be useful in the topic of this thread -
http://www.amazon.com/How-Think-About-Great-Ideas/dp/0812694120/ref=sr_1_1/002-9239220-5363247?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175555489&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/Truth-Religion-Mortimer-Jerome-Adler/dp/0020641400
I can also heartily recommend his autobiography "A Second Look In The Rearview Mirror".
|
|
|
Current time is 11:59 pm | |
|
|
