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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 11:12 pm |
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I just read the post from Gene on "Justification, Righteousness, and Putting on Christ," and I must respond. ATTENTION ALL FAITHFUL CATHOLICS!!
You are the target of many Protestant Evangelical Fundamentalist Churches/Ministries. These Protestants wholeheartedly believe that you are lost in your sins. You must learn how to defend your faith. Not only for yourself, but for the sake of your separated brethren, that many of them will join themselves to the holy, apostolic, catholic Church. "Always be prepared to make a defense for the hope that is within you."
I listen to a Protestant Station, from time to time. (Family Radio) Recently I heard something that leaped out at me. The radio host was talking about an evangelization effort in May, encouraging the listening audience to pray for and support this outreach. The host said, "We are going to Portugal in May to pass out tracts and preach the gospel. At that time, there will be many coming to that area to celebrate the anniversary of a supposed miracle that occurred there 100 years ago. We need to tell these people about the love of Jesus Christ." Now, right away I knew they were talking about evangelizing Catholics, even though the host never mentioned the word Catholics. I'm assuming they need to be a bit more covert in their evangelization efforts these days. But then I wondered how many of these unsuspecting Catholics will be taken in by these evangelization efforts because they are unable to defend their faith??
Just a short 6 months ago, I heard some things that sparked my curiosity up and led me on a deeper journey of faith toward Catholicism. I attended a Protestant Evangelization Gathering, which was set up at the local fairgrounds. We bumped into some neighbors there who just moved to a house on our street. As we were talking, the one lady began talking about a close friend (or possibly relative) that had not yet accepted Christ. She commented, "He's still Catholic, but we're working on him and he's starting to come around." Helloooo, don't Catholics "accept Christ" every time they partake in the Eucharist? How many Catholics are out there, that with a little nudge from their separated brethren, would be ready to jump ship and follow Luther's lead? And in many cases, it is because Catholics do not know how to hold their ground and defend their faith when speaking with a zealous, Evangelical Protestant. Got that???
Then we bumped into a woman preacher who was very aggressive. My husband mentioned that scripture said women should not be pastors preaching from the pulpit. She said "God called her to be a pastor"....yadda, yadda, you know the spiel. At one point she became extremely irritated and retorted, "I don't need a priest to confess my sins to. I can pray directly to God." I suspected at that point that she might be Catholic. The odd thing is, we weren't even talking about the Catholic Church or her needing to ask forgiveness from a priest. She just blirted that out, as if out of no where. That really got me thinking, "Why was she so angry at the Catholic Church?" I wouldn't be surprised if a zealous, Evangelical Protestant came across her path many years earlier, convincing her that the sacraments nor the Catholic Church could save her. Only Jesus could save her. And like many Catholics, she had no answer to defend her Catholic faith.
Then we stopped by a booth that had pro-life literature, which was educating the public on a pro-life ministry in the area. I began talking to the woman who is the director of this pro-life organization. I asked her if Catholics ever got involved in the ministry. She said that they donate money and clothing and whatever else the pregnant women might need. But she made it clear that no Catholics were allowed to be involved in the ministry in any other way. Catholics couldn't work in the office, answer phones or counsel the women. Only Christians who have been saved by the new birth could be part of the ministry in this way. Then she went on to tell me that before being a Methodist, she was involved in the Catholic Cursillo Movement. "How could they justify shutting out Catholics?" I wondered.
Well, it didn't take much for me to take a glimpse into my own past and come to terms with my former attitude toward Catholics. I, along with many others with me, used to say that "Catholics got just enough of Jesus to immunize them against the Real Jesus." We believed they heard some true things about Jesus, but were never encouraged to live a Christian life or have a personal relationship with Christ. And when presented with this viewpoint, very few Catholics could even express what they believed in with regard to their faith. I used to go to Catholic schools, and even churches, and Catholic bazarres. I zealously passed out tracts, with my Protestant brethren, exclaiming to the Catholics that they needed to be saved, born again to enter into God's Heavenly Kingdom. Were they ready? Needless to say, the MAJORITY were uncatechized and we Evangelicals ran circles around them. Not just with scripture verses, but also with all our views of erroneous Catholic doctrine and dogma. Granted, we didn't know that there was a "spin" on the Protestant's view of Catholic theology, but neither did the Catholics we were preaching to. THEY WERE CLUELESS. Thus, we were successful in convincing many of them to come over to our side.
Now, why do I say all this? Because my dear brothers and sisters, I desire that Catholics become familiar with what they believe and why, so as not to jump ship over to the other side. They need to learn how the sacraments strengthen them and give them the grace to live a godly life in Christ. They need to understand that knowing scripture deepens their relationship with Christ and their understanding of Him and His will. They need to know what Catholic doctrine and dogma are and to become as familiar with the Bible and the Catholic Cathechism, as Evangelical Fundamentalists are with the Bible. They need to know these things in order to guard their faith against those who would try to mislead them with good intentions, but who are woefully ignorant of Catholic doctrine. Who knows better than one who has been there, such as myself?
Now I long for the day when I can partake of the sacraments. I long for the day when I can be joined to Christ's Church founded on the rock of St. Peter. And I long to defend this precious Church, Christ's Bride, in the presence of my Protestant brothers and sisters.
Onward Christian soldiers marching as to war, with the cross of Jesus going on before. Christ our royal master leads against the foe, forward into battle, see His banners go.
Like a mighty army moves the Church of God. Brothers we are treading where the saints have trod. We are not divided all one body we, One in faith and doctrine, One in charity.
Many months ago, we sang this hymn in church and the truths jumped out at me. One in faith and doctrine, one in charity. Hmmmm... I thought, "We aren't one in these things. If I want to believe in the gifts of the Spirit and you don't, we are free to disagree. We're free to disagree on many, many things. We have given ourselves that liberty, and it is supposed to mean that somehow that is our freedom in Christ. But in the end, it leads to many church splits and is harmful to the faith of many Protestant Christians. And for those who claim that "we stand on the Bible and the Bible alone" it seems rather odd that they claim "we can agree to disagree" on something so important as the doctrines of our faith. And where does that term "we can agree to disagree" or anything even resembling it exist in the Bible? Come on, show the the chapter and verse. You can't, because it isn't in there. Not when it comes to our salvation.
And I would spare my Catholic brethren from experiencing the frustrations and subjectivism of Protestantism. Why flounder about in a sea of uncertainty, where whole passages of scripture can be left up to several different interpretations, and sola scriptura is the chant, when the Catholic Church has the "deposit of faith and the Magesterium and Papal Succession?"
Know your faith and be able to defend it and thereby lead others into the beauty of Catholicism. Amen and Amen!
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Truthseeker
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| Joined: | Wed Oct 4th, 2006 |
| Location: | Costa Mesa, California USA |
| Posts: | 457 |
| First Name: | Laura | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | lapsed and returned CATHOLIC!!!!!! |
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Posted: Fri Mar 30th, 2007 11:40 pm |
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I am so touched by your passion and concern for those who leave the true faith thinkning they are finding truth. Amen sister!
Love, Laura
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Lord, please make my will your Will!
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mrbill
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| Joined: | Wed Dec 13th, 2006 |
| Location: | Deltona, Florida USA |
| Posts: | 17 |
| First Name: | Bill | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic- Baptist- Returned Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Mar 31st, 2007 01:56 am |
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Darlene- I don't have these problems anymore. I don't listen to Protestant radio or TV. My wife and I no longer attend the Baptist Church we once attended. I can't think of any good reason to attend any event there or at any other Protestant church. Before we left, I noticed the anti-Catholic sentiments for a long time. Not obvious, but just under the surface. When we left, it became obvious that they were really just bigots.
Dictionary.com defines bigot as:
a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion
American Heritage Dictionary says:
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
Why should I have to "hold my ground and defend my faith" to a bigot? Since I left the Baptist church I no longer have to participate in the endless "Bible debates," run by people with a 21st century mindset and a 12th grade education, that pass for Bible study. I think that because most Protestants don't accept the proper interpretations of the big concepts of the Bible (because they are not allowed to) they can't grasp how it all ties together. No wonder it doesn't make sense to them. How else can you explain the importance placed on "fixing" Catholics, JW's, Mormons, and everyone else that is not just like them?
You probably don't understand that many Catholics can't relate to this type of religious bigotry. I was raised in a Catholic family, attended St. John the Evangelist elementary school (grades 1-8), and Our Lady of Good Counsel High School in Wheaton, Md. I had religion class in school, was taught by Nuns and Xaverian Brothers, and attended mass weekly until I was 18. I was never taught by any of them that the President of the Southern Baptist Association was the "Whore of Babylon". I don't remember ever being taught that Protestants were all going to Hell or that none of them was "saved". They never told me that the soda crackers Baptists hand out at the "Lord's Supper" were "Death Crackers". I don't recall anyone in the Catholic Church having an us vs. them attitude towards Protestants or any other faith when I was growing up. Maybe it wasn't like this for everyone- I'm sure that Cradle Catholics who were also raised in the Church could comment more on this point.
Even when I attended two different Baptist churches and one Disciples of Christ church and heard all of the lies and delusions about what Catholics believed (concerning Baptism, Communion, Confession, etc.), I ignored them because I always knew that the Catholic Church had a solid, Biblical reason for everything it did and believed. I am just now learning these reasons (better late than never I guess), but I was never gullible enough to just believe every crazy or illogical thing I was told or read. All Catholics should know more about their faith, and this forum has been a big help to me, but many, if not most people are generally turned off by "Bible Thumpers" and all the other nice people that knock on your door Sat. morning.
I asked my wife (who was raised Lutheran) that if she still wanted to attend our old church, knowing that the people there are bigots and regularly insulted the faith that my parents and most of my family still holds, and if they verbally beat me up for what I never stopped believing, would she still force me to go. Thank God she said no. When you look at it like that, if I heard homilies about how Protestants weren't Christians (which is what our old Pastor believes about Catholics), or heard constant lies and old wives tales about other groups, she probably wouldn't be interested in attending a Catholic Church with me, and I probably wouldn't be going either.
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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Sat Mar 31st, 2007 02:28 am |
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Ok MrBill, I've got some questions for ya, and please don't take it the wrong way. Why did you end up attending a Baptist Church if you were raised as a Catholic? Do you think that if you had been schooled better in your Catholic faith, that you never would have even attended a Baptist Church, where as you say, bigots resided? Why would you, having been raised as a Catholic, been willing to subject yourself to being in the midst of people who insulted the faith of your upbringing?
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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mrbill
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| Joined: | Wed Dec 13th, 2006 |
| Location: | Deltona, Florida USA |
| Posts: | 17 |
| First Name: | Bill | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic- Baptist- Returned Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Mar 31st, 2007 03:25 am |
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I hadn't been active in any church for a good 15 years or more. When I married my wife, she had two young boys, and she wasn't active in any church either. As time went on, her younger brother (who was only a few years older than our boys) became very involved in his church. Our kids went to church with him a few times. So one day our older son (he was about 12 at the time) called the local Baptist church down the street and asked if they could pick him up in their van and take him to church! We thought it would be pretty sad if we didn't take him ourselves, so we went. That church was very small and very conservative (men in suits, the ladies of the church came by to visit the day after you go the first time, etc.) but we found a larger Baptist church to go to. The people were all very nice, and we had never been to a Baptist church before, and everything was fine for a while. After a few church splits and changing churches, a friend of ours decided to just start his own church. It is a member of the Southern Baptist Assoc., but it is called a "Community Church". Over time you hear the weird ideas about Catholics and everyone else, mostly from people conversing during Bible study. Praise for Bob Jones, Catholics being told to pray to statues and bury them in their yard, etc. I never felt comfortable with the people or a lot of the teachings, including the ones from bible study books. I became more and more aware that everyone in the church had their own unique philosophy on Christianity, and some of it was pretty weird. Our pastor (no formal training) got the vision to grow the church. I learned over time many of the members believed in abortion, said Pope JPII was the anti-christ, and supported mission trips that were aimed to convert non- christians and "fix" everyone else. I began to share my concerns with my wife after listening to a "Catholic Bashing Session" disguised as a Bible study. She knew very little about Catholics, but had never heard anything negative about them growing up as a Lutheran. When our pastor gave a sermon on Jesus telling Peter he was the rock on which he was going to build his Church, and told us that what Jesus meant was that it was his faith he was going to build it on, I started reading and learning the truth. For a while I just kind of "showed up" and tuned out most everything. After we decided to leave is when people's true feelings came out. Normally, I guess in most churches, the Catholic Church is not the main topic of discussion all the time. But over time you learn the truth about what people think and believe. I like to believe that God has a plan for my life and that it just didn't include those churches. The end result is that our son (who is almost 21) is getting married to the pastor's daughter in June. She believes like her father does, that Lutherans aren't really Christian (they use that little version of the Bible in Church), Pentecostals aren't either (he doesn't like the speaking in tongues) and Catholics DEFINITELY aren't Christian. Our son, raised in the Baptist church, wants to become involved in a mega-church (I guess) that believes in "repainting the Christian faith" on a regular basis.
I have to admit that I failed to get a clear idea about what these different groups of people really believed. For a long time very little "controversial" ever came up. For example, if I had been told on day one that communion was nothing more to them than a symbol that had to be done on a regular basis, and meant nothing more than that, I never would have gone back. I feel that many times I was decieved and mislead by the false teachings. I guess it just took a little time to get it through my head.
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mrsbill
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| Joined: | Tue Dec 5th, 2006 |
| Location: | Deltona, Florida USA |
| Posts: | 39 |
| First Name: | Nora | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Lutheran & Baptist backgrounds, currently on the Road to Rome! |
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Posted: Sat Mar 31st, 2007 12:02 pm |
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Ok MrBill, I've got some questions for ya, and please don't take it the wrong way. Why did you end up attending a Baptist Church if you were raised as a Catholic? Do you think that if you had been schooled better in your Catholic faith, that you never would have even attended a Baptist Church, where as you say, bigots resided? Why would you, having been raised as a Catholic, been willing to subject yourself to being in the midst of people who insulted the faith of your upbringing?
Darlene, MrBill also didn't point out, that although I didn't have any bad feelings regarding Catholicism, I was brought up as a Protestant...there were no Catholics in my family. We had Lutherans, Baptists, Methodist and other faiths intermingled in my extended family, but no Catholics, therefore I had no interest in attending a Catholic church. I didn't dislike the RCC or anything, I just felt that the few Catholic masses I had attended while growing up (usually with friends) were so very different from what I was used to. So, while I wanted our family to go to church, I was under the mindset that it didn't matter what denomination, as long as it was Protestant, as long as they held our belief system and moral values, and the kids like it. Pretty much the only denomination we found that upheld our views on abortion, sex before marriage, and other moral issues, as a denomination (not necessarily the individuals within it, as we eventually found out), were the Catholics and the Southern Baptists.
The children were VERY involved from day one. They joined bible studies, youth group, a drama team (where they were they stars...because they were so outgoing and had great personalities for drama), and became very active in different aspects of the church. Our older son was looked at as a "leader" within the youth group, not just because of his love for God, but his ability to get along with everyone. The kids were happy, and quite frankly we were pretty comfortable too. At that point we didn't see any issues or problems. Keep in mind, a lot of the anti-Catholic stuff is buried far underneath the surface.
After going through some church splits, and lets face it the Protestants sure do seem to "split" a lot, the idea of helping to found a community church sounded like a wonderful idea. The kids were a huge part of the youth group and drama team at the new church. As a matter of fact, the youth group was pretty cool during the time the kids were in high school. It had a lot of active participants and I even helped run it with some other moms. They performed at local Christian events, took mission trips, and generally had a great experience in it.
It's only within the past year or so that I have questioned the teachings, listened to some really weird ideas about other faiths being spoken about, and started having to check sermon teaching again my own Bible, because things didn't seem "quite right." It was I who went to my DH with lots and lots of questions. I started studying the Catholic faith and finding that my views were very much in line with the RCC. I could tell that he was very happy that I was showing an interest in the faith of his childhood, the faith he never really let go of!
I think overall he stayed for so many years, mostly for the boys and me. Please understand that we are in the midst of leaving this church right now and it is very hard, especially for me. We did a dual attendance at both the community church/Catholic church for a while, but realized that it just wasn't working for us. The teachings were so opposite on some things. Finally in January we made the decision to attend the Catholic church only. I am very happy learning the things I am learning and drawing myself closer into a communion with God. But, I have left behind friends of many years, some who think I am no longer a "Christian" because I have "defected" to the RCC.
And as my DH pointed out, and we have pointed out elsehwere in the board, our oldest son is marrying our old Pastor's daughter in June. She doesn't believe Catholics are Christian either! Nor, does her father. Or her mother, who has been my best friend for many years. This has put a rift up between our once close families and it is very hard on me, as I don't want to see this happen. Her mother and I are trying to mend, I think, but it is still awkward and we don't speak much about churches or religion anymore, because we have such opposing views now. Luckily we have wedding plans to fill up some conversation with, but the tension is so thick you could cut it with a knife.
I can't "defend my new faith" with her, because in doing so it undermines her husband's views, which would of course, not be a good thing to our currently "walking on eggshells" friendship. I think the same goes for her...should she bring up how her husband is "right," it undermines my Catholic husband (who by the way, they have known was Catholic all along...maybe they thought they had "fixed" him, I dunno), which would just upset me. So, generally I think we both find it best not to talk about it at all. It does feel like a big elephant is in the room and nobody wants to acknowledge it.
I have learned a lot about the Catholic faith, both from this board and from my extensive study of it recently, and I do feel that I could "defend it" should it be brought up. Keep in mind, I'm not even Catholic yet! But, I cannot bring it up to my friends out of the blue and just start "defending it." Things are too fresh right now. Feelings are too fragile.
Especially my husband's feelings right now. When I told my ex-Pastor that I was sick and tired or hearing how Catholics weren't Christians, and he said "they're not," it really cut my husband to the core, so he is harboring bitterness, because he had just implied that my husband's deceased father (who briefly thought of becoming a preist in his younger days, pre-marriage), his recently deceased mother (just passed a couple of years ago), and the rest of his family were not Christians. That kind of talk hurts when you hear it coming from the mouth of someone you have vacationed with, been friends with for 10 years, and who is soon to be a part of your family by marriage.
But, I do feel bad, I know he would have liked to have attended a Catholic church when the kids were growing up, but because I wanted the kids to be in the church they were involved in and were happy in, he stayed all these years attending the churches that me and the kids chose to keep us happy.
Luckily, I have come to realize that the one true church is the Catholic church, and luckily I have a partner to help me transition, unlike so many stories I have read here. My heart and prayers go out to those with unsupportive spouses. I know how hard it is when friends give you a hard time...I can't imagine dealing with a spouse like that.
However, I see so many Catholics who don't know their faith, as you pointed out. I think the years spent away from the Catholic church have helped to deepen my DH faith, as he has seen how the "other side" thinks. He has probably learned more about his faith in the past year, than in all those years of Catholic school. He is deeply immersed in learning more on a daily basis, and I have seen a change in him since we have began going exclusively to the Catholic church (and this is a change for the better). We still need to work on the bitterness of years of "Catholic bashing" that he has felt, but with God's help we will get through it. I just wish I had realized sooner what the constant (and often quiet and just under the radar) references to the Catholic church made by others were doing to him. I wouldn't have insisted that he keep attending with me and being involved so much. This makes me sad that I did this to him. 
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Br_Carlo
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Tyler, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 150 |
| First Name: | Br_Carlo (Vince Brach) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Episcopalian, CATHOLIC |
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Posted: Sat Mar 31st, 2007 12:33 pm |
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God's peace. You aren't alone in seeing the problem: the great failure of the Church in this generation to properly educate its people! The conversion stories I read are full of tales of how easily the typical Catholic can be deceived by the most superficially-trained Protestant. What can we do to stem the tide?
I recommend Scott Hahn's wonderful ministry, the St Paul Center for Biblical Theology. Check it out at http://www.SalvationHistory.com . Dr. Hahn, with all the zeal of a Presbyterian-turned-Catholic, is actually doing something about this teaching deficit. Support him with your dollars and your prayers! Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~
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mrsbill
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| Joined: | Tue Dec 5th, 2006 |
| Location: | Deltona, Florida USA |
| Posts: | 39 |
| First Name: | Nora | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Lutheran & Baptist backgrounds, currently on the Road to Rome! |
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Posted: Sat Mar 31st, 2007 12:46 pm |
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Br_Carlo, Scott Hahn has been a great inspiration to me. I have read and own many of his books, and I watch him on TV on Monday nights on EWTN.
I have also leant his books out to my brother (a trained pastor with the Assemblies of God denomination), though he doesn't lead a church or anything. He's only 24. As a matter of fact he attends our above formentioned church, along with my sons, and my mother!
Actually all of my family has attended it. My sister, who doesn't really have a church home (she was brough up Lutheran with me...my brother is a LOT younger than us, closer in age to my children) attended for a number of months, but she started coming to us with question about some of the teachings, at a time when we were questioning them ourselves, so even she saw something not "quite right." She no longer attends that church.
As far as the books I have leant my brother from Mr. Hahn, no comment yet from him! Hehehe....
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Mar 31st, 2007 01:24 pm |
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May I say that it is the marginal Catholic, not the typical Catholic, who falls victim to the "cherry picking" of other faiths.
The overwhelming majority of Catholics are faithful and cannot be swayed. Many know their faith; many more have limited knowledge but a strong enough faith that cannot be shaken.
A small Protestant congregation with 20 former Catholics will have a significant percentage of former Catholics as members, but there are still a thousand or ten thousand attending the Catholic churches. Influences in the bible belt may be a little different since all of society is preaching that the Catholic Church is wrong, but the opposite is true in the Catholic areas.
Remember, more adults enter the Church each year than leave it. There's a reason for that.
Having said that, let me also say we need to improve our catechesis, and we need to be concerned about every Catholic who leaves the faith, for there is more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 who have no need of repentance. The problem is serious, but it is not as serious as it may appear to be.
The Church is stronger than ever.
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sewnsew
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 913 |
| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Anglican, Episcopal /Catholic-04/07/07 |
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Posted: Sat Mar 31st, 2007 09:30 pm |
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cajunrick wrote:
Remember, more adults enter the Church each year than leave it. There's a reason for that.
...The Church is stronger than ever.
Are there any statistics out there adults joinning the catholic church vr leaving the catholic church for protestant denoms.?
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Cindy
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| Joined: | Fri Nov 17th, 2006 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 42 |
| First Name: | Cindy | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic convert |
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Posted: Sun Apr 1st, 2007 06:22 am |
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mrsbill wrote:
As far as the books I have leant my brother from Mr. Hahn, no comment yet from him! Hehehe....
Hi Nora,
Have you heard Tim Staples' conversion story CDs "Jimmy Swaggart Made Me Catholic"? Tim was an Assemblies of God youth pastor before his conversion to the Catholic Faith. He's an apologist for Catholic Answers now. This might be a good one for your brother, too.
Jimmy Swaggart Made Me Catholic - Compact Discs
God bless!
Cindy
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The Lord is near to all who call upon Him, to all who call upon Him in Truth -- Psalm 145:18
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wmschrader
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| Joined: | Fri Dec 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Fort Myers, Florida USA |
| Posts: | 100 |
| First Name: | Bill | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Methodist, Lutheran, Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Apr 1st, 2007 10:41 am |
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I strongly recommend a new DVD series by Dr. Ray Guarendi and Fr. Kevin Fete called "What Catholics really believe". Dr Ray was raised Catholic but left the Church for 7-8 years and then returned.
You can find it on Amazon or at http://www.ninevehscrossing.com It is 13 28 minute programs on all aspects of the Catholic Faith from Salvation, Mary, Eucharist, Papacy and yes Pugatory.
Comes with a study guide and workbook on the nineveh site. Would be wonderful to share with Catholics who have left the Church as well as a great resource for an RCIA program
Last edited on Sun Apr 1st, 2007 11:03 am by wmschrader
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Bill
Glory be to God for all things
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Luke12:48
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| Joined: | Sat Sep 30th, 2006 |
| Location: | Southeast, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 120 |
| First Name: | Kate | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle catholic, left for many years, returned June 2006 |
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Posted: Wed Apr 4th, 2007 09:29 am |
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Darlene,
In reply to your original post --
It is amazing to me just how little information/knowledge is needed to stop these people in their tracks. It is also a sad commentary that even after a Catholic education, many cradle Catholics do not have it. I have been looking at the basic curriculum available for children as I intend to homeschool for our CCD next year and I am not finding much that I would call good.
We seem to have an unusually large number of cold calls here from various denominations --JW, various fundamentalists, even mennonites. They knock on the door and the most basic introduce themselves, hand you an ad for an upcoming service and are gone. The more inventive have some type of catchy question like "Do you believe you will go to heaven?" I used to take the ad, say thank you and shut the door. Now, if I have the time and I am in the mood, I have some fun with it. They are not expecting a serious response in most cases and they usually leave stammering. My husband (who is not always very supportive of my journey or the church at all) thinks it is histerical. Of course, I am careful never to use the word Catholic and just stick to the issues. Without having the label applied, the discussion can go a little further. Every once in a while, I'll get one who really gets into it and as long as we keep the conversation on reading/interpreting the bible, they are more than happy to chat but I find that most have no response past the script they have been given--they are just not that well prepared. I am sure their pastor/leader is more prepared and they are just there to suck you into the meeting. I can't help but be tempted into going and playing devil's advocate a bit at one of these gatherings but I'm no where near confident enough in my own studies yet. Maybe eventually....
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Darlene
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Posted: Wed Apr 4th, 2007 02:17 pm |
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Luke12:48 wrote: Darlene,
In reply to your original post --
It is amazing to me just how little information/knowledge is needed to stop these people in their tracks. It is also a sad commentary that even after a Catholic education, many cradle Catholics do not have it. I have been looking at the basic curriculum available for children as I intend to homeschool for our CCD next year and I am not finding much that I would call good.
We seem to have an unusually large number of cold calls here from various denominations --JW, various fundamentalists, even mennonites. They knock on the door and the most basic introduce themselves, hand you an ad for an upcoming service and are gone. The more inventive have some type of catchy question like "Do you believe you will go to heaven?" I used to take the ad, say thank you and shut the door. Now, if I have the time and I am in the mood, I have some fun with it. They are not expecting a serious response in most cases and they usually leave stammering. My husband (who is not always very supportive of my journey or the church at all) thinks it is histerical. Of course, I am careful never to use the word Catholic and just stick to the issues. Without having the label applied, the discussion can go a little further. Every once in a while, I'll get one who really gets into it and as long as we keep the conversation on reading/interpreting the bible, they are more than happy to chat but I find that most have no response past the script they have been given--they are just not that well prepared. I am sure their pastor/leader is more prepared and they are just there to suck you into the meeting. I can't help but be tempted into going and playing devil's advocate a bit at one of these gatherings but I'm no where near confident enough in my own studies yet. Maybe eventually....
Kate, When I was a member of that Christian sect/cult, we regularly visited various churches and debated with them. Even in many of the Evangelical churches, the average Christian was inept and weak at defending their faith. I recall how disrespectful and self-righteous we were toward so many brothers and sisters in Christ, not just Catholics, but Protestants as well. What is especially sad is that we convinced many to leave their churches and join our group/sect/cult. However, even I have said in other posts, that I do not regret my involvement in that Christian sect. I have learned much from that experience and the friendships I gained have lasted until this day.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Thu Apr 5th, 2007 02:22 am |
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 Darlene, you sure put a lot of work into this great post. It galls me to no end to listen to real, hard-core lapsed and solidly ex-catholic holier-than-thou-evangelicals dump all sorts of garbage on their old Church. One time I even heard a former catholic talk about his "evangelization mission" in Brazil and described attempts by Catholic bishops there to stop the drain of Catholics to the evangelical sects. He said the CHurch was resorting to Inquisition methods.
Yeah, right. It wouldn't have done any good to try and pry the real truth out of him since I knew he was an over the top goner. I should've asked him why does he blame the Church for trying to keep the faithful from making a big mistake by falling for the evangelicals "bread and circus" tactics of packaging their message with all sorts of electronic gimmickry.
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James Michael Curley to a young Thomas “Tip” O’Neill -- “Son, it’s nice to be important, but it’s more important to be nice.”
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a46geo
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Posted: Thu Apr 5th, 2007 08:38 pm |
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cajunrick wrote:
Remember, more adults enter the Church each year than leave it. There's a reason for that.
The Church is stronger than ever.
I am one of those formerly "over the top" (overtly) anti-catholics. I whole heartedly believe more people are coming than going, is there a statistic somewhere we can point to?
I read somewhere on this new (to me) forum that some 80,000 adults will be baptized into the Catholic Church this year. Can we estimate the number leaving?
I could really use this information.
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George
1 Peter 5:7 Place all of your cares on him, for he cares about you.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Apr 5th, 2007 11:44 pm |
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a46geo wrote:Can we estimate the number leaving?
The Church keeps figures only on those coming in. I do not know of any reliable source keeping track of those who leave. It’s kind of a shadowy area anyway, because most of those leaving for another religion just silently steal away. Additionally, there are many Catholics who are inactive but have no intention of joining another religion. How do we count these? And who will take the census?
What Rick was referring to was the fact that the total number of adult Catholics continues to rise. Considering that officially there will be 150,000 adults formally entering the Church in the US alone this Saturday, we can see why he is confident that this is not just a matter of a “greying” population.
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Apr 6th, 2007 12:08 am |
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a46geo wrote: I read somewhere on this new (to me) forum that some 80,000 adults will be baptized into the Catholic Church this year. Can we estimate the number leaving?
"Once a Catholic, always a Catholic."
Leaving the Catholic Church requires a formal declaration, and that seldom happens. We are a family; we do not disown our siblings.
However, mass attendance, after a significant decline from the 60's into the 90's, has been on the rise ever since.
As David said, most who leave the Church do not go elsewhere; they become unchurched. The number that leave for other denominations are just very vocal about it, but like the "black sheep" of any family, more often than not they eventually return.
And no, I'm sorry, but I can't point to hard figures to back up what I say. Mass attendance is rising the most in areas with immigrant populations or conservative, faithful bishops, and falling the fastest in areas where there is less fidelity to the Magisterium. The numbers exist and I have seen them so I'm not making this up, but offhand at this particular moment I can't seem to locate them.
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a46geo
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Posted: Fri Apr 6th, 2007 10:24 am |
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Well Thanks, that is enough information/ammunition for me. I have two pentecostal ministers with whom there is a sort of "dialogue" going on. The only claim they have made that I couldn't answer was their claim that the Catholic Church in America is a mere skeleton of its former self.
I believed in my heart that was not true. I was sure this claim fell into the same mis-information catagory most every other claim they make. I just needed to hear it from a reliable source.
I really like this forum.
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George
1 Peter 5:7 Place all of your cares on him, for he cares about you.
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Fri Apr 6th, 2007 01:33 pm |
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Those Pentacostal ministers might have a point, but only on "style." Since Vatican II, we've done a magnificent job of over-doing it when it came to stripping the Church of its pre-Vatican II rituals, architectural features, and of course, the mysterious glory of the Tridentine Mass.
However, and this is where many people miss the point about the Church's consistency when it comes to preserving unity in Truth: The basic structure of the Mass hasn't changed one bit. Nor has Her teachings on the Eucharist, etc. You might want to ask them if they know of any Protestant churches which were started over changes in prayers, rituals, hymns and readings used for the Sunday sermon, or message.
Catholics like to grumble like anybody else. Sometimes we're too good at it when it comes to The Church and we forget what a wonderful pearl we have.
Grumbling always seems to trump good manners and commonsense when it comes to "churchy matters." I'm guilty of crabbing about the soapy and sloppy sentimental mush passing for "music" these days and many sermons I thought stunk. So long as we come for the Eucharist and remember that it's The Main Event, we can be patient with anything else. We can even grumble, so | | |
