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JillD
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Sun Apr 1st, 2007 02:56 am |
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When I was a Lutheran, I remember old time Lutherans grumbling about how Baptists were coming into the church and trying to make it more Baptist. So, I was wondering if converts to the Church ever try to do that? Or, is it possible that they do the opposite, ie try to keep the Catholic Church "Catholic"? When I hear of a Catholic Church with loud rock music during Mass, I wonder how that came about. Is that the Church trying to "get with the times," or was it due to an outside influence?
Just curious...
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Apr 1st, 2007 03:20 am |
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JillD wrote: When I was a Lutheran, I remember old time Lutherans grumbling about how Baptists were coming into the church and trying to make it more Baptist. So, I was wondering if converts to the Church ever try to do that? Or, is it possible that they do the opposite, ie try to keep the Catholic Church "Catholic"? When I hear of a Catholic Church with loud rock music during Mass, I wonder how that came about. Is that the Church trying to "get with the times," or was it due to an outside influence?
I bought a copy of a record (yes, a record, made of vinyl) in the late 60's called the "Rock and Roll Funeral Mass". I kid you not. It was awful. I remember one of the songs of that generation:
Sons of God / Hear his holy word / Gather round / the table of the Lord
Eat his body / Drink his blood / And we'll sing a song of love
Allelu, Allelu, Allelu, Allelu-oo-yah!
Brothers, Sisters, we are one, and our life has just begun,
In the Spirit, we are young, and we'll sing our song of love
Allelu, Allelu, Allelu, Allelu-oo-yah!
That's as much as I remember. In retrospect, it was terrible. But we sang it with enthusiasm. After all, we weren't looking at the priest's back anymore.
So no, I don't think "converts" have anything to do with it. Protestant influences have crept into the selection of songs, some of which featire questionable theology, but I really thing that has more with the proliferation of "Christian" radio as well as television commercials. Those that are good belong in church; those that are bad, or are theologically questionable, should be banned. It's not because of "converts" but rather because of Catholic contact with Protestant influences through the media.
But if the converts can bring us enthusiasm and intensity, to complement the more standard Catholic sacredness and spirituality, that would be a wonderful thing.
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JillD
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Posted: Sun Apr 1st, 2007 03:36 am |
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cajunrick wrote:
But if the converts can bring us enthusiasm and intensity, to complement the more standard Catholic sacredness and spirituality, that would be a wonderful thing.
Indeed! The best of both worlds...
Though I'm still not too crazy about the idea of enthusiastic rock 'n roll Masses. 
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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Br_Carlo
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Posted: Sun Apr 1st, 2007 09:32 am |
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God's peace. Let me tell you a story about what converts can bring to the Church.
A young lady teacher where I work will be entering the Church from a Methodist background this Easter vigil. Recently, she asked me for some advice on how to handle her first reconciliation, as she was nervous and really didn't know what to say. The next day I asked her how things went. She told me that she was "walking on air," that she had never experienced such a wonderful release from guilt before, and that she would be going regularly! She also told me that she can barely wait to be confirmed and receive her first Eucharist.
How's that for enthusiasm? Would that we could infuse this sense of excitement and love for the Church into every Catholic! Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~
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BodRod
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Posted: Sun Apr 1st, 2007 10:53 am |
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Br_Carlo wrote: She told me that she was "walking on air," that she had never experienced such a wonderful release from guilt before ......
That is exactly how I felt! In fact, I was so high afterward I did not go to bed until almost mid-night (My usual time is 10ish.).
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Apr 1st, 2007 12:29 pm |
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JillD wrote: Though I'm still not too crazy about the idea of enthusiastic rock 'n roll Masses.
I can take an occasional rock 'n roll mass, but the whole idea of a rock 'n roll funeral mass is just not right on so many levels.
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Darlene
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Posted: Sun Apr 1st, 2007 06:50 pm |
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It is the sacredness, quiet contemplation, reverence and awe that are drawing me to the Catholic Church. I've heard enough of the Southern style gospel music that would make any hound dog sing, including Elvis.  And I've heard enough of the praise choruses that are so superficial that a person can wonder, what is the point? And I have heard so many turn-of-the-19th-Century hymns, that make me want to break out my roller skates and glide down the aisle. Although I must confess, I love the roller skating hymns!
Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, sweetest name I know, fills my every longing, keeps me singing as I go.
When we all get to Heaven what a day of rejoicing that will be, when we all see Jesus, we'll sing and SHOUT the victory.
It's just like Jesus to roll the clouds away, it's just like Jesus to keep me day by day, it's just like Jesus all along the waaayyyy, it's just like His great love.
BTW, I've been thinking about posting Protestant hymns, especially the ones I have an affection for, and inquire if they are doctrinally correct, according (of course) to Catholic teaching. David or Rick, where would a category like this go on our forum? I think it might help some of our CHN family.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Apr 1st, 2007 07:13 pm |
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Darlene wrote:I've been thinking about posting Protestant hymns, especially the ones I have an affection for, and inquire if they are doctrinally correct, according (of course) to Catholic teaching. David or Rick, where would a category like this go on our forum?
Other Liturgical Topics looks good to me. A subheading speaks of sacred music.
David
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BettyBoopToo
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| Location: | Camas/Washougal, Washington USA |
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Posted: Sun Apr 1st, 2007 07:59 pm |
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Hello Jill!
I think that canverts for the most part bring a new enthusiasm to the church. Their knowledge of Scripture is also a great blessing too.
In my own humble experience, Every year when we have all our new catholics come into the church at EV. They all for the most part seem to dig right in and participate in every function and work that their life allows.
Every year after EV, Father has the welcoming commitee put on a luncheon, they also invite the leaders of all the different church groups. These leaders go around and introduce themselfves to all the newbies and lets them know about each of the different organizations within the church, So they are being welcomed and can kind of get an idea as to which group they may be interested in. I think that it's a really good idea to allow the new folks a chance to get to know some other people in the parish and befriend them.
As far as anyone from the protestant back ground trying to make changes, At our parish, Father is very involved with teaching the RCIA classes and by the time your done, Your very much aware of why the Church does and holds fast to her traditions, etc. You just can tell that your not going to be changing anything. It's hard to explain, But father is a true shepard and I guess you'd call him a very staunch orthodox priest.
Father is very kind and charitable, yet very firm as to what the church teaches and what she does not teach. He'd not allow a rock band or any instrument not supported by the magisterium into the santuary. He's also very fussy about keeping the santuary a holy atmosphere. Worship and silence are a must, Whispering when necessary. If people start hanging around the santuary like they might in other churches to visit, We'll hear about it and he'll instruct us to take our visiting outside our downstairs in the Hall where different gatherings are held. We have a stage in our Hall area and if any group wants to put on a concert he will allow them down stairs but not in the santuary.
I personally love his teaching and the way he upholds what Mother Church teaches. There are several families from each mass that stay after to pray thanks giving prayers and many of us that just want to spend some additional time with Jesus. So out of respect for those who want to continue in prayer, He makes sure he provides a place for us that is kept silent. I love the reverence that he teaches us to have for the real presence of our lord in the blessed sacrament.
God Bless
Betty
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"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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JillD
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Posted: Sun Apr 1st, 2007 09:06 pm |
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Hi Betty,
It sounds like you have a wonderful priest! What a blessing! Actually, to have a priest at all is a blessing. I pray that more and more young men will respond to God's call as the poor men that are now serving are shepherding so many families. I was told that in our diocese, there are 5,000 Catholics for each priest. 1% of that would be a more comfortable number! It would seem that nothing short of God's grace could keep them on their feet from week to week.
Thanks for sharing!
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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Talithacumi
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Posted: Mon Apr 2nd, 2007 03:28 am |
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cajunrick wrote: I bought a copy of a record (yes, a record, made of vinyl) in the late 60's called the "Rock and Roll Funeral Mass". I kid you not. It was awful. I remember one of the songs of that generation:
Sons of God / Hear his holy word / Gather round / the table of the Lord
Eat his body / Drink his blood / And we'll sing a song of love
Allelu, Allelu, Allelu, Allelu-oo-yah!...
...no, I don't think "converts" have anything to do with it. Protestant influences have crept into the selection of songs, some of which featire questionable theology, but I really thing that has more with the proliferation of "Christian" radio as well as television commercials. Those that are good belong in church; those that are bad, or are theologically questionable, should be banned. It's not because of "converts" but rather because of Catholic contact with Protestant influences through the media.
But if the converts can bring us enthusiasm and intensity, to complement the more standard Catholic sacredness and spirituality, that would be a wonderful thing.
Hey, I remember that song! Used to sing it all the time in grade school. Personally, I kind of lump it into the "Kum-ba-ya" category. I guess I don't think of songs like that as having been specifically Protestant in origin, but rather, I think it's just a cultural influence. That type of song seems to me to have been more a product of the "Sixties" influence... all that peace and love and hippy folk-song stuff.
To answer Jill's question: Is that the Church trying to "get with the times," or was it due to an outside influence?
I think it's both, really. I think that often - and I've heard Catholic musicians say this, too - using Rock-n-Roll, for instance, is an effort to draw people in, especially the younger crowd. And I can understand the thinking. It's true. Music does play a huge part in drawing people. I think maybe the motives are honorable... what good Catholic wouldn't want to see others drawn to the Church? And when I was younger, I appreciated a little more of a livelier beat in the music, perhaps, myself.
Personally, though, I find that, as I've gotten older, I appreciate the more traditional music in the Mass. I love the old Latin hymns and the old classics. I like some contemporary Christian music now and then, but I find that for Mass, I don't like to hear too much of a contemporary style anymore. Maybe it's just a sign of getting older...
But Rick said something that kind of makes me think of a sort of philosophical question: Those [songs] that are good belong in church; those that are bad, or are theologically questionable, should be banned.
Well, here's what I'm wondering: How does one discern what is "good" music and what is "bad" music? Certainly, if the lyrics/message are not theologically sound, then they should be banned, but sometimes the theology isn't bad, but the "sound" might be questionable... But therin lies the rub: at the risk of sounding like a Relativist, isn't the sound of music (not talking about the movie here... ) sort of a matter of personal taste? There are lots of songs that I think are "bad" but am I the "music police"? How can I (or even the Powers-That-Be in the Catholic Church) tell someone their music is bad? Know what I mean? Where does one draw the line? Trying to discern what is good or bad music isn't exactly an exact science, ya know? I hear a lot of talk about trying to ban bad music from the Liturgy... OK, but what criteria could one possibly use (other than theological, that is) that wouldn't be too limiting? For instance, if one said that no guitar music should be used, well, I think that would bother me just a little considering I play a little guitar (admittedly very little, but still...) and I like some hymns on the guitar. Besides, one of the most popular Christmas songs of all times was written for guitar: "Silent Night". There are some very reverent and beautiful songs out there that are specifically meant for guitars. Now, I'm not too crazy about some of the folksy guitar songs that are sometimes used for Mass (like the Kum-ba-ya types I mentioned earlier, for instance), but I wouldn't want to see all guitar music banned. (I am simply using guitar-based music as just one example of the point I'm trying to get across, btw, just in case anyone is confused...:?)
So, again, what kind of criteria would one use as a measuring stick for "bad" music? It would be impossible to get specific, wouldn't it ?(and I don't believe there are specific guidelines... rightly so, IMO.) I mean, for instance, if we were to have "rock music" banned... to one person a song might sound like "rock music"; to someone else it might sound like "soft pop." Still another might think of it as "contemporary." See what I mean? It all depends on a person's own personal definition... and there's so much variation and vacillation in the definition of types of music...
(Does anyone get my question, btw? I know I might tend to sound confusing sometimes...)
JMJ
- Cheri
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“We do not want a Church that will move with the world; we want a Church that will move the world.”
- G.K. Chesterton
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DrDave
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Posted: Mon Apr 2nd, 2007 05:33 am |
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"Sons of God" used to be one of my favourites (back when I was about five ), and I think it, songs like it and the guitar & drum crowd that helped introduce them were, for the most part well intentioned loyal Catholics trying to simultaneously draw back the younger "crowd" that they could see drifting off to either atheism or protestantism, and to embrace the "spirit of modernism" that swept through the church in the initial (deliberatley:?) misunderstood wave of reform of the 2nd Vatican council.
Strangely if you read the documents there is little to suggest that Guitar (Here I put my hand up & confess to being an accomplice) & Drums should be introduced, much to suggest that the organ should never be displaced. Also the documents indicate that each diocese should maintain a list of works approved for use in worship (I've yet to see one)
Regards Dave
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NB: 'DrDave' is a nickname from college not and indication of academic achievement.
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Annie
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Posted: Mon Apr 2nd, 2007 10:29 am |
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I have seen some evidence of Protestantization of my home church but am not sure whether it is due to poor catechesis or the priest who is questioning his vocation. For one thing, the head of the church council is a convert with no religious background at all. I ha lunch with her last week and she has never read the catechism, was not aware of the contents of the Vatican II documents and had never heard of the GIRM-- had no idea that there are rules about how things are to be done in liturgy.
Oh, well, that's life.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Apr 2nd, 2007 11:44 am |
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Talithacumi wrote: But Rick said something that kind of makes me think of a sort of philosophical question: Those [songs] that are good belong in church; those that are bad, or are theologically questionable, should be banned.
Well, here's what I'm wondering: How does one discern what is "good" music and what is "bad" music?
Like the test the Supreme Court used on another, very different matter, I may not be able to define it, but I know it when I hear it.
Sons of God is not a very good song. The words don't fit the music and it's a bit too simple. That's why it hasn't survived, at least in most places, although it accomplished a transition in it's day. The song "Breathe" (This is the air I breathe, this is the air I breathe...") is theologically questionable ("This is my Daily Bread ... your holy word spoken to me.) I had a priest once forbid me to sing "Amazing Grace" because he said it meant once saved, always saved ("that saved a wretch like me...").
Black gospel music is great, but "Oh, Happy Day" would not be appropriate for our lily-white congregation. Many Hispanic hymns would be equally out of place in our parish. It's a judgment call that the pastor, music director, etc., have to make. Adding theologically sound Protestant hymns and songs is fine, but Catholic standards should not be displaced. All musical instruments are appropriate for the right congregation. Our youth group has a keyboard, guitars, flutes, and a violin. We have a professional singer who plays guitar and sings occasionally, plus a paid music director who plays organ and leads the adult choir. And I fill in from time to time.
So the music needs to reflect the liturgical theme of the season and day, and a good variety of music is needed. Ideally the theological message of the song should be sound, and it should be easy to sing or hear. It should complement the worship, not be the focal point as it often is in Protestant ceremonies, and it should be at a sound level that can be heard but not be overpowering. And it should fit the congregation or the hymn books won't even be opened.
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brian
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Posted: Mon Apr 2nd, 2007 01:30 pm |
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I attended an all (well almost all) black Catholic church in Chicago's East side (St. Ailbe), and they had mass but it was very dressed up with gospel and culturally african art and preaching by the priest. It was very good and inspiring, I thought. Maybe not what I wanted for lent, but I would go back on occasion maybe 3 to 5 times a year and balance it out perhaps by going to Byzantine Church or Tridentine Mass once in a while. It just made me happy to see how a totally different culture could enjoy the Catholic faith. I used to think RC was more for whites, but I have come to lean it is the most diverse church.
So was it ok for this parish to use drums and gospel songs with a lot of volume?
The only things I wondered were liturgically correct were that the pews did not have kneelers and they did not kneel at certain parts, and they had liturgical dance...though I suppose the reason that the church is against this in the West is that dancing is not a sign of worship culturally for us, but in an African context I would think that is a part of their background.
Anyway, yeah, I think the more church is like a concert is not good. I come from a background like that, and it has its strengths and weaknesses. Now I am finding that I would prefer to get the antidote in RC but really I think it is good to have a variety of settings for different parishes. At least with the liturgy of the mass there is always going to be form and purpose in where and why the music takes place whether it is played by guitars accordians or harps. This will always protect us from things getting too far carried away. A lot of the music at St. Ailbes church was during offertory or reflections between parts of the service and they stayed afterward to sing more when the mass was over.
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Darlene
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Posted: Mon Apr 2nd, 2007 03:25 pm |
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OK, I'm gonna put my two cents in here.  I think that the first priority regarding hymns sung in church should be, Is it theologically correct? If there are things said that are contrary to sacred scripture and/or the doctrines/dogmas of the Church, then do not sing them, no matter how beautiful the melody might be.
However, Cheri made some good points on which I will build. I think the crux of the matter regarding music, not lyrics, is that the Catholic Church is universal and therefore, encompasses a myriad of different cultures. So what might be acceptable in a Catholic Church in Hawaii, may be very out of place in Arkansas. Music, in and of itself, is amoral. The meaning we attach to it, however, is not. (IMO)
For example, after I became a Christian, I could not and did not, want to listen to most of the popular music of the day. In my case, that was rock music. To clarify, I'm talking about outside of the church in my daily life. Now granted, quite a bit of rock music was irreligious. However, there was quite a bit that was not. To make matters a little bit more confusing, I was able to listen to some rock music, and actually derive a spiritual meaning from it. For example, I would tell people that Led Zepplin was actually talking about God and how to discover Him, in "Stairway to Heaven." OK, are you still with me? (smile) After my conversion, I would see the beauty of God in many songs, even though looking back on it, I realize the composer never had that in mind. Ex.: The song "I'm on the Top of the World" by the Carpenters. The words in that song had new meaning for me after my conversion. Granted, this was a subjective experience. But for the most part, I began to see that the majority of the rock music of that day, esp. hard core rock, was not pleasing to God, and many times immoral and irreligious. My conscience would be convicted if I would listen to it (and esp. if I would enjoy it) because it would bring back memories of my ungodly lifestyle prior to my conversion.
Now, how does all this tie into hymns? Well, in some cases, a person can be drawn to God through a particular kind of music that is sung in church, simply because they have an affinity toward that kind of music. Since the music is already pleasing to them, they will begin listening to the lyrics and find meaning and spritual truth in it. On the other hand, the same kind of music, lets say in this case, which uses drums and guitar, might bother another parishioner. Perhaps because of their previous lifestyle, or perhaps because they have preconceived ideas about that kind of music or misconceptions. Whatever the reason, they cannot find spiritual encouragement in church from hearing that kind of music. The music drowns out the words.
Often, this is why there are disputes in many traditional Protestant churches. One of the Reformed Baptist churches that a friend of mine attended had a dispute over whether or not drums should be used during worship. The older folks were dead set against it, while the younger ones wanted it. And I have heard about this being the case in various churches.
I attended Mass a few months ago at a parish a few miles from the one I normally attend. The orchestra consisted mainly of teenagers. Instruments ranged from drums, to flutes, to clarinets, to piano and guitar, to mention a few. This parish consisted mainly of families with lots of young children and teenagers. Now while I personally didn't care for the music, I can see the value of it. Why? Because the young people were involved in the worship, and that is an accomplishment, given the trend today of young people being turned off by religion.
So how do we please everyone, or should that even be a consideration? As Rick said before, music is not the main course (my words) of the Mass. Rather, it is meant to compliment our worship. So in Africa, drums and dancing implemented into worship is pleasing to God, and culturally, that is what they know. In Latin America, perhaps salsa music or some variation of it is culturally acceptable. And in Mississippi, a form of gospel music or Negro spirituals is acceptable. Location and culture would be the determining factors.
Right about now, I can hear some flamboyant Baptist preacher declaring from the pulpit, "Rock music is of the devil." Yep, I've heard that in my day.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Apr 2nd, 2007 04:26 pm |
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Darlene wrote: I was able to listen to some rock music, and actually derive a spiritual meaning from it. For example, I would tell people that Led Zepplin was actually talking about God and how to discover Him, in "Stairway to Heaven." OK, are you still with me? (smile)
Actually, I taught a course one year where the entire curriculum was the meaning behind the lyrics in popular music. The kids used to try to freak me out (their words) with the songs they brought in. Most of the stuff they brought in I'd never heard before, but Stairway to Heaven was one of my favorites in college, and they were quite surprised that I knew all the lyrics.
Some of those kids have told me that they are now confronting their kids' musical choices, and they're doing exactly what we did in that class. Instead of condemning them or their music, they are sitting down with them and examining the lyrics and the messages behind them.
But that's off-topic for this thread. Ideally a parish should offer a variety of musical styles so that every parishioner can find something they can relate to. I would have a problem with drums if they were present at every mass, but for those who find it uplifting to their spirituality, I'm all for it. It needs to be done in a proper manner with theologically correct songs, and it shouldn't shake the stained glass windows, but otherwise, I'm all for it. Gospel and salsa can have their place, too. Even rap has its place if used appropriately, say as a praise hymn or testimony. John Michael Talbot has a CD called Monk Rock that's just great.
I attended a mass at an old folks' home in Haiti where the "instruments" were all homemade percussion, like a washboard, a pot being banged on by spoons, etc. it was fabulous. During the offertory and after communion, the people started dancing, and made us dance with them. I have pictures on my Retreat Into Reality web site, Day 2. (I just discovered some new pictures that I've been adding to the site.)
So music of any type can be acceptable under the right circumstances, as long as it improves the worship and does not detract from it.
Even Stairway to Heaven. And one of my favorites, that alleged "humanist anthem", John Lennon's Imagine.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Apr 3rd, 2007 04:58 pm |
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JillD wrote:When I hear of a Catholic Church with loud rock music during Mass, I wonder how that came about. Is that the Church trying to "get with the times," or was it due to an outside influence?
Talithacumi wrote:To answer Jill's question: "Is that the Church trying to 'get with the times,' or was it due to an outside influence?" I think it's both, really. I think that often — and I've heard Catholic musicians say this, too — using Rock-n-Roll, for instance, is an effort to draw people in, especially the younger crowd.
I’m coming to this discussion late, but I do have a viewpoint on this topic that is a little different from what has been expressed so far.
The basic issue here is not whether Protestant converts have brought something with them that has permeated the Church. In fact, converts make up only a small portion of the Church’s total membership, and even if these people are powerhouses of dynamism (and most of them aren’t), they are not the authorities of the Church and most Catholics ignore them except insofar as they embrace what is genuinely Catholic. This is why Scott Hahn and Marcus Grodi are popular, whereas those who attempt to make the Catholic Church into a larger version of their former culture have little following.
What has brought “loud rock music” and other forms of “outside influence” into the Mass and into the life of the Church generally has been the false notion that the Second Vatican Council called for the Church to accept into its bosom the practices of the surrounding culture. In other words, it is the erroneous idea that Vatican II called for the Church to “get with the times” by accepting and assimilating what non-Catholics consider important so as, on the one hand, to make of the Church one huge, happy family, and on the other, to attract non-Catholics to the Church.
History since then shows that this approach has had precisely the opposite effect. The Church has become a follower of cultural trends instead of a leader, “proclaiming the gospel to all creatures” and exerting its influence in the world. It is seen as an object of derision by its opponents because it is weak, fawning and utterly unable to command respect. Meanwhile, since the council we have seen the exodus of millions of Catholics. Is this what was envisioned by the council fathers? The documents of the Second Vatican Council are very clear; their mandate was not followed, and this is the catastrophic result.
If we attempt to attract young adults with rock and jazz and other accutrements of the surrounding culture, we are saying to them, “See, we’re just like you.” Why, then, would they want to join or follow, when they already have that? Even if some do join, if they remain at that level, will they ever become solid Catholic Christians? What incentive would they have to “climb the mountain of the Lord,” to become priests and religious? What will become of them when they outgrow their youthful enthusiasm?
Since the turn of the millennium, there have been strong voices in the Church to reverse this trend and get the Church back on the right footing. John Paul II was one of the first of these, actually beginning back in the 80s, but his call went unheeded. Now that Benedict XVI has reiterated the messages and begun to put some teeth into it, some of the bishops have started to respond. We see a trickle of outspoken condemnations both of false ideologies and of those in the Church who hold them. We occasionally see united stands by bodies of bishops against secular powers attempting to bully the Church into submission and against immoral trends in society. And we see our Holy Father’s pen poised to redirect some of the liturgical revisions that have proved detrimental to the life of the Church.
If you want to attract a following, you have to be bold enough to resist the flow of the cultural stream. Like Jesus, you have to “speak with authority, not like the scribes and Pharisees.” Those bishops in our Church today who are doing exactly that are the true prophets of our times.
JillD wrote:I'm still not too crazy about the idea of enthusiastic rock 'n roll Masses.
Frankly, in my experience, very few converts want this kind of music in the liturgy, any more than they want kumbaya theology. They are hungry for Christ, not more of the same pablum they can get elsewhere in abundance. And I believe that a majority of lifelong Catholics are of the same mind. But it is being pressed upon us because those parishioners who are musicians simply do not know anything else. They have been deprived of the Church’s musical patrimony through its post-conciliar dismissal, and contemporary secular dance styles are the only thing they have to fill the void.
It is not difficult to see that subjectivism, with its me-first attitude, is not compatible with Christian theology. It is not difficult to see that dance tunes, percussion and banal, party-style lyrics are not conducive to prayer and worship. It is not difficult to see that catchy tunes and shallow group enthusiasm are not going to be a link between God and the depths of the soul. The sanctuary is not a dance hall, and the Mass is not entertainment. Is God going to dance for us and perform a few tricks on the altar? Is he, as Herod thought of Jesus, a showman good for a few laughs (cf. Luke 23:8)?
Darlene wrote:It is the sacredness, quiet contemplation, reverence and awe that are drawing me to the Catholic Church.
This is what I hear over and over from inquirers and converts. Enough of the shallowness, the manic activity and frenzied sermons and music! They want the peace of the depths of God, the peace that Jesus offers them in the scriptures and through the tradition of the Church.
Talithacumi wrote:Well, here's what I'm wondering: How does one discern what is "good" music and what is "bad" music?
Liturgically, “appropriateness” is the key. Musical quality is discerned by the listener, and the culls will fall by the wayside simply because they are inferior. This website has a number of Church documents and other articles which can guide us to what is appropriate. In the end, I strongly believe with the magisterium of the Church that appropriateness is not a subjective, personal thing but an objective, normative thing. Two thousand years of tradition have instructed the Church very well in this regard, and a momentary lapse such as what we have seen over the past 40-odd years serves only to reinforce that tradition.
I do not believe it is “impossible to get specific” or that “it all depends on a person’s own personal definition.” I do not believe that liturgy is simply “in the eye of the beholder.” This is subjectivism, pure and simple. Subjectivism may be a popular cultural battle cry, but it is not a sound foundation for anything enduring or divine. I became Catholic precisely because I rejected the subjectivist approach of both Protestantism and the secular culture. I will not now, after 44 years as a Catholic, yield on this point, because our present Holy Father has made a point of severely criticizing subjectivism, under the name of “relativism,” for its role in the destruction of Christian values and culture and the conscious rejection of Christ that we see in contemporary European and American society.
I reiterate that the Church needs to stand up and fight for what is truly Christian, not merely follow the present culture into oblivion. Let us leave the City of This World to those who are dying with it. “Let the dead bury their dead.” Let us return to the roots of our liturgy, to the roots of our theology, to the roots of our tradition, research them thoroughly and create a new City of God worthy of the name.
Notice that I am not calling for a return to the past, but to use our heritage to create a contemporary expression of our faith that will provide the basis of a true Christian culture for centuries to come. This was John XXIII’s vision of the council he convoked. It does not mean uniformity, as we had with the Counterreformation. It means legitimate diversity within the guidelines of the faith. It means orthodoxy, but letting both lungs of the Church sing out their own melody in appropriate fashion. Let us cease to preach like the scribes and Pharisees and begin to imitate Jesus in his Sermon on the Mount: “You have heard it said… but I say to you.…” Let us truly understand and renew the liturgy we celebrate in union with the whole Church.
David
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JillD
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Tue Apr 3rd, 2007 05:26 pm |
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David - That was awesome!! Well said! Thank you so much for sharing your perspective.
Blessings, Jill
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"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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BettyBoopToo
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| Location: | Camas/Washougal, Washington USA |
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| First Name: | Betty | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Fist Baptist/Calvary Babtist/Secular Confusion/ Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Apr 4th, 2007 12:16 am |
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JillD wrote: Hi Betty,
It sounds like you have a wonderful priest! What a blessing! Actually, to have a priest at all is a blessing. I pray that more and more young men will respond to God's call as the poor men that are now serving are shepherding so many families. I was told that in our diocese, there are 5,000 Catholics for each priest. 1% of that would be a more comfortable number! It would seem that nothing short of God's grace could keep them on their feet from week to week.
Thanks for sharing!
Jill
Jill:
He's a wonderful priest, We all love him dearly.
I worry about him all the time and pray for him daily. He works so very hard and does such a great job. I've never heard one person young or old every speak anything but love and graditude for this young man that the Lord blessed us with 4 years ago.
I always pray for other priest and our parish has a huge group of families that offer hour & hours a week before the blessed sacrament praying for priest's & semanarians.
He always encourages us all to pray for priest, Then he follows it up with his funny | | |
