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twiggymoo
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| Joined: | Fri Oct 13th, 2006 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
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| First Name: | Twiggymoo | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nazarene, Free Methodist, Baptist..Romeward bound |
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Posted: Fri Apr 6th, 2007 01:11 pm |
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In our continuing search for a new church "home", we went to a baptist church down the road from us last sunday. I figured there were already two strikes against them before we walked in the door. There was an organ playing a prelude (I thought, wow! an organ!) and someone greeted us and acted interested, a nice welcome, etc...
There were no goatee type of guys there, no praise team, no guitars or drums either! So, I was favorably impressed, except it is not Catholic.
Then a lady went up to sing. Before she sang, she just had to knock the Catholic church by saying "you know, some churches have Christ still on the cross (pointing to the front), but I am so glad that He is not on that Cross anymore!" Well, strike three! I wanted to ask 'so the bleeding and suffering Saviour on the Cross does nothing for you?' I figured she must be one of those Catholics that left the Church, to make a comment like that.
She then went on to sing beautifully. Her voice was so clear and majestic. I wish I could have enjoyed it more.
Don
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Apr 6th, 2007 01:14 pm |
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At least there was a cross, albeit an empty one.
On this Good Friday, I think it's important for us to remember that we were not saved by an empty cross!
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Talithacumi
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| First Name: | Cheri | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic - Latin Rite |
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Posted: Sat Apr 7th, 2007 02:32 am |
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twiggymoo wrote: ...Before she sang, she just had to knock the Catholic church by saying "you know, some churches have Christ still on the cross (pointing to the front), but I am so glad that He is not on that Cross anymore!" Well, strike three! I wanted to ask 'so the bleeding and suffering Saviour on the Cross does nothing for you?' I figured she must be one of those Catholics that left the Church, to make a comment like that.
She then went on to sing beautifully. Her voice was so clear and majestic. I wish I could have enjoyed it more.
Don
Until I was about 35 or 36 years old (I'm 44 now), I was never aware of any problems with "keeping Jesus on the Cross." It wasn't even an issue at all to me as a Catholic. I was dating a Protestant man at the time and one day he asked me why we Catholics still keep Jesus on the cross. I know I looked as confused as I felt. As a Cradle Catholic, I didn't understand the question. I seem to remember wondering what he was getting at. I mean, did he think that we thought it was really Jesus on there instead of a wooden or metal or plastic carving of Jesus? Was he that stupid? (hey, not trying to be insulting... maybe I was the stupid one for not knowing what he was getting at).
It suddenly - somehow - registered in my brain that he (and apparently others who had taught him) thought that by "keeping Jesus on the cross" it must mean that we Catholics didn't believe in the Resurrection. With what must have been an incredulous look on my face, I asked him if that's what he thought and he said he'd heard that and he was just wondering.
Honestly, I don't remember exactly how I responded. I think, being the very un-subtle person that I tend to be, I did mention that we didn't believe it was really Jesus on there... but just a carving to depict His image; we aren't idolators! And anyone who thinks we are "keeping Jesus on the cross" by way of those images must be an idolator themselves! I think I then went on to try to explain my own experiences on how a crucifix affected me. When I am very sad and I look at a crucifix, it makes me remember that Jesus died for all of us and that He suffered like us - and even so much more! When I see a crucifix I remember that I can offer up my sufferings along with His, and that, as St. Paul says, my sufferings can help to make up for what was lacking in the suffering of Christ. It makes me realize that we are all here to help each other out and that my own suffering can somehow be efficacious if I offer it up. When I see a crucifix it makes me realize that my suffering is so puny compared to what He suffered and that I have no right to really complain. When I see a crucifix it reminds me that God so loved the world that He sent His only Son to die for us, that Jesus conquered Sin and Death, that through His death and resurrection, we now may have life eternally.
In short, I tried to explain that the crucifix is a reminder to us of how much Jesus loved us. There are two things that Fr. John Corapi (for those who are familiar with him) says that I always remember. One goes something like this: "No pain, no gain. No gall, no glory. No cross, no crown." And the other is: "You can't have the Resurrection without the Crucifixion." (I'm picturing him speaking in his direct and no-nonsense Sean Connery-like voice... ).
Anyway, I told that to my ex bf, and at the time he seemed to consider what I said. Over time, though, well, let's just say his family and church saw me as a threat because of my Catholicism. Our relationship ended, in large part because of their un-acceptance of my being a Catholic. Enough said on that score.
But I am still constantly amazed when I hear about how some people go on about us "keeping Jesus on the Cross." Looking at an empty cross does very little for me, personally. I mean, empty crosses are OK - there's nothing wrong with the symbolism, but to belittle a crucifix!... Personally, when I hear people talk like that it reminds me of a "prosperity gospel" mindset - as if suffering is caused by our having no faith, and that it is to be avoided at all costs. Heaven forbid that we might have to imitate Christ and suffer for the sake of others! No, pasting a cheerful smile on our face at all times and boasting that we're "saved" and we're oh-so-happy all the time is so much better (Can anyone say "rose-colored glasses"?). OK, I hope I don't sound too sarcastic there... I'm not trying to say that Christians shouldn't be joyful! But only that I don't think we should pretend that life is always going to be rosy as long as we "believe on Jesus Christ and confess Him with our mouths."
There is suffering in the world. The crucifix brings home the reality of it, but points to the hope of the Glory of the Resurrection.
Sorry I went so long on this... I was just reminded of a personal experience and thought I'd share my thoughts on it. Hope y'all don't mind.
JMJ
- Cheri
____________________
“We do not want a Church that will move with the world; we want a Church that will move the world.”
- G.K. Chesterton
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cdunh
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 20th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arkansas USA |
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| First Name: | Cal | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist to Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Apr 7th, 2007 08:19 am |
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| Years ago, speaking at a national conference of "Christian" social workers, I asked the question: "What are the implications of higher education for [our so-called "holiness sects"] which are [exclusive and anti-Catholic]...? (I am paraphrasing as the wording was a little more subtle.) The paper generated considerable discussion and generated several invitations to consider joining the faculties of a few universities (colleges). The implication which I noted was that "Truth" has a winsome character of its own. It "woos" people. It invites us to growth and maturity. It seemed to me that intellectual honesty and human experience pulls and pushes us to an inclusive holistic experience of life and of God. It does not require us to isolate and insulate ourselves from those seeking Truth. With that as a serious personal concern, I have thought of some "anti" groups as caricatures of serious religion. Some, I fear, are seductive of people who seriously seek God but are in error steered to an ultimately pricey substitute.
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twiggymoo
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| Joined: | Fri Oct 13th, 2006 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
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| First Name: | Twiggymoo | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nazarene, Free Methodist, Baptist..Romeward bound |
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Posted: Sat Apr 7th, 2007 10:06 am |
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The word "exclusive" jumped out at me. As a fundamentalist, my world for 30 years was divided into two camps - saved and unsaved. This played out especially at work. Most people at my jobs in whatever office I've worked in for all those years were the 'unsaved'. I've been a gov't contractor for 15 years now, having jobs at NASA and the DEA. Before that, I was in the Air Force. It was me vs them. Whenever someone would question me or my work, whether IG inspectors, or higher ups, I would resent it. In fact, today, at my job with the DEA, I manage their inventory and after five years there, I've dealt with their problems that have been in existence for 20 years of no inventory control. Well, when I came there, they hit me with an inventory of 10,000 items - I reported 2,000 missing. They wouldn't accept that and on it went. I say all this because through all of this, I resented it. My exclusivist mindset placed everyone there in contempt. Do I blame fundamentalism? Maybe. I think if I was Catholic, maybe I wouldn't have had such contempt - are people not God's creation? Are we not to love? Looking at my past life as a fundamentalist, I have to say I was very unchristian and uncharitable in my thoughts and my actions. Is it right to blame anything other than myself? Probably not.
However, I think in the churches we've attended there is a christ with no cross -but the cross is a reality in our lives that many would rather not bear. No, we would rather focus on what good things God has for us in this life without the sufferings.
I want to help my wife and especially my oldest son to escape that mindset. My son is in the Army and has had difficulty with his peers at work. He attends a pentecostal church and I wish he would somehow see that he is in an antagonistic mindset and that church is not helpful. As his parents, we failed to teach him love. I told him last week to ask God to show him what His Purpose for him is where he is now.
I pray the Lord deliver us from our sins.
O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee..Last edited on Sat Apr 7th, 2007 12:43 pm by twiggymoo
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Br_Carlo
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Tyler, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 150 |
| First Name: | Br_Carlo (Vince Brach) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Episcopalian, CATHOLIC |
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Posted: Sat Apr 7th, 2007 10:59 am |
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| God's peace. I have a number of Baptist friends (fewer every day, it seems). I occasionally get poked at for wearing a crucifix. I have found an excellent response: "For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified" (I Cor. 2:2). This is St Paul speaking! If they persist (so far, no one has), you might quote St Paul again: "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" (Gal. 2: 20). Notice that St Paul says he is presently crucified with Christ. The crucifixion is an event made present by the Church through the Mass. To the Baptist, the crucifixion is a past event that is remembered only through a mere memorial consisting of a light snack of grape juice and crackers or croutons. Since there is no present presence of the crucified Christ in their religion, they have a very hard time explaining the significance of their present sufferings! Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~ Last edited on Sat Apr 7th, 2007 11:02 am by Br_Carlo
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Sat Apr 7th, 2007 11:35 am |
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Well, if this topic isn't up my alley! If the corpus on the cross dispute isn't one of the dumbest between Prods and Papists, it's hard to imagine any dumber.
That is, unless of course, you're familiar with Willow Creek and its peculiar excuse for not having any, and I mean any, crosses displayed in its main "worship area:" The excuse is that the church is bigger than any one symbol. Well, at least we know that "one symbol" stands for everything.
Sadly enough, I've run into people in the Baptist church I work at who get the shivers whenever they see Jesus hanging on the cross. They should. You should. I should. We all should. Thankfully, most of the members haven't taken me up on my inistence that a real Cross should have Jesus on it.
Seriously though, what's the big deal with a cross with Our Lord on it? (Well, Catholics, Orthodox and our more liturgical-minded Protestant brethern know.) However, the very low-church and reformed branches haven't gotten around to realizing that a bare cross may be nice for trying to enhance Jesus' resurrected state after Easter - it completely abandons the reaon for why and how Jesus wound up in a grave to be resurrected in the first place.
As Fr. Corapi likes to point out, "no pain, no gain/no cross, no crown."
What I'd like to know is, why did so many evangelicals pack movie theaters three years ago to see Mel Gibson's very graphic "Passion of the Christ" movie that was rated R, yet they have problems with seeing Jesus on their crosses? Is the portrayal of the price too much for so many "health and wealth"/"claim it, pray it and get it" contemporary mere Christians to bear?
Is the corpus on the cross "too Catholic," or simply too much to handle in this age of megachurchianity with all its emphasis on stripping Christianity of what it really stands for?
Let's face it, it's the age of dumbed down praise and worship "music," (three notes and maybe, four lines, plus a lot of repetitions). On the other hand, being Catholic also means you don't have to apologize for the banality and wimpishness of other separated brethern's services.
On the other hand, we only have to apologize to God for what we allowed our more "forward-thinking" liberal liturgists did to mangle the once-unassailable beauty of the Mass before Vatican II. But - that's a lot to apologize for!
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Sat Apr 7th, 2007 11:42 am |
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 What?? No overweight balding guys with gotees and painted on smiles ready to smother you with hugs as if you were a first cousin at a family reunion? No kids with spiked hair? No blasting guitar and drum pieces?
Be thankful. Very thankful. But, I'd love to have a word or two with the woman with the nice voice and not-so-nice attitude towards those folks who keep Jesus on the cross.
Heck, I'd much rather hear the band director of the UMass/Amherst marching band do a solo rendition of "Amazing Grace," or Luther's battle hymn, "A Mighty Fortress is Our God" with his tuba than listen to anything that anti-crucifix singer has to offer up.
Sure you only counted three strikes? Looks like the whole side went down 1-2-3, and all on called third strikes!
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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GordonH
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Posted: Mon Apr 9th, 2007 03:25 pm |
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If I may comment as someone who trained for the presbyerian ministry, I think the root of this issue is that protestants have a problem accepting Jesus human nature along side his divine nature. They will generally deal with the crucifix issue by talking about "idols" or "graven images" but when you dig deeper they don't want to accept that Jesus was fully human and fully divine.
They like to keep physical matter and spiritual things as seperate. This is why they can't accept the real presence in the eucharist, because it involves the physical and the spirtual being united in some way. If you go further into it you will find that a lot of this is to do with the problem of sin. You will often hear in protestant sermons that spirit is good and flesh is bad and that we need to become more spiritual and less physical. Its not quite that simple because the bible does say that the "word became flesh" so flesh can not always be totally bad. This takes you into the issue of the sinlessness of christ, holiness, sanctification and (dare I mention it) the place of works.
However, a lot of what we call "protestant" is actually 19th century evangelicalism. For example, the reformers (in the main) believed that sacraments had an implicit grace attached to them (check out the Westminster Confession). They also believed in other doctrines that today are considered "catholic" like the perpetual virginity of Mary (John Wesley believed this to be a necessary belief).
Sorry that was a bit of a ramble. I am not sure I expressed myself correctly, but I hope you get the general idea. What I am really saying is that the crucifix issue is an indication of a wider philosophical difference between catholics and protestants.
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susiedear
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Posted: Mon Apr 9th, 2007 03:54 pm |
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I grew up in a pentecostal church that lambasted the idea of depicting Jesus on the cross. "He's not there -- he is risen!" All Christians believe that glorious central truth. But the fact that Jesus is risen has less meaning if we can't acknowledge that without the cross, there would have not been a Resurrection.
My mother is decidedly anti-Catholic. When she and my dad came for a visit last fall, (we live 1200 miles apart), I took down my crucifixes and put them in a box in the back of my closet. I felt awful, as if I were ashamed of my Lord, but the truth is that I couldn't stomach another confrontation. The next time they visit, however, my crucifixes will be displayed, not hidden. I cannot hide Him again.
Elizabeth
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But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. St. Augustine
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Talithacumi
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Posted: Mon Apr 9th, 2007 04:27 pm |
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GordonH wrote: ...They like to keep physical matter and spiritual things as seperate. This is why they can't accept the real presence in the eucharist, because it involves the physical and the spirtual being united in some way. If you go further into it you will find that a lot of this is to do with the problem of sin. You will often hear in protestant sermons that spirit is good and flesh is bad and that we need to become more spiritual and less physical. Its not quite that simple because the bible does say that the "word became flesh" so flesh can not always be totally bad. This takes you into the issue of the sinlessness of christ, holiness, sanctification and (dare I mention it) the place of works.
...I am not sure I expressed myself correctly, but I hope you get the general idea. What I am really saying is that the crucifix issue is an indication of a wider philosophical difference between catholics and protestants.
I think you're right... I got a sense of this way of thinking back when I was dating my Protestant ex-boyfriend. He and some of his Protestant friends seemed to have this certain inexplicable way of separating the physical and spiritual... one of his friends even went so far as to say that modern technological devices were "carnal" and used by "carnal people" (good grief! - rolling eyes...).
Anyway, but yes, you are right. It's the same reason that so many Protestants think that it's wrong to dance, play cards, etc. Even sex is sometimes looked upon as "dirty" or "bad." (That's not to say that the abuse of it isn't sinful! - just that sometimes people look on it like the very act itself is somehow tainted with sinfulness).
Anyway, no, I think you expressed yourself well enough. At least, I [think] I understood you.
JMJ
- Cheri
____________________
“We do not want a Church that will move with the world; we want a Church that will move the world.”
- G.K. Chesterton
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Apr 9th, 2007 06:35 pm |
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Talithacumi wrote: GordonH wrote: ...They like to keep physical matter and spiritual things as seperate. T
I got a sense of this way of thinking back when I was dating my Protestant ex-boyfriend. He and some of his Protestant friends seemed to have this certain inexplicable way of separating the physical and spiritual... one of his friends even went so far as to say that modern technological devices were "carnal" and used by "carnal people" (good grief! - rolling eyes...).
Isn't that the same thing David and I keep mentioning, the difference between the Protestant focus on "either/or", and the Catholic focus on "both/and"?
If it must be either spiritual or physical, how can it be both? If it must be either good or bad, how can it be both (at different times)? How can the Eucharist be both physically bread and spiritually Jesus? How both physically wine and spiritually Jesus? Jesus must be either on the cross or risen -- how can he be both?
It's like saying how can I be both a husband and a father? Certainly I must be either one or the other. How can Jesus be both God and man? How can I be both graced and still struggling with sin?
Answer: All things are possible with God.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Dona Moyer
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Posted: Wed Apr 18th, 2007 11:26 am |
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Hi, I kind of skimmed through the answers to this post. I didn't have time to actually read all of each one so I hope I am not being redundant. (actually, right now I have one 8 mnth old grandchild here trying to stuff a whole teething cookie down his throat and a 4 year old grandchild watching 'my gym partner is a monkey' , neither of which aids serious thought, but I'll try as this is something I deal with all the time)
I can remember hearing my sister say, when she was newly 'saved' that she and some of her friends were out 'witnessing' and she saw a woman wearing a crucifix. She said she felt like walking up to her and saying, "Take Jesus off that cross. He isn't there anymore." I have found out that it is mostly Baptists who have a problem with Catholics. Most other demoniations usually don't bother about all the little differences. I recently attended a non-denominational women's retreat. I was a little bit leery about even going but it turned out to be a very rewarding experience. There were other Catholics there. Not many, but a few and since the last day was Palm Sunday, they even took us to Mass.
Even after being around Baptists most of my life I was still taken aback at some of the things the Baptists believe about Catholic Doctrine. One girl asked me if it was true that Catholics didn't believe Jesus was the son of God. Another asked me why I didn't take communion with the rest of the group, and why I wouldn't even go up to be 'blessed'. Another, why did we think we had to confess to a man when the Bible says to confess to God, which of course it doesn't, and of course the always present question of why we worship Mary. I answered all the questions the best I could without going into different kinds of prayer and long explanations about the differences between 'tradition' and Tradition, and Church 'teaching and practice' and Church Doctrine.
About confession, I mostly tried to explain why I, myself, believed confession was important, and that the priest doesn't just say he, himself forgives us, but that we know that Jesus, in his mercy, forgives us. I said that I believe every human needs to hear the words, 'you are forgiven' and I told them that we don't worship Mary. That we believe it is a sin to worship Mary, and that of course we believe in the Holy Trinity, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. I'm not sure if anyone actually listened, but they seemed to.
I explained that a Catholic cannot take communion in another church because communion is a very big part of our belief and that we take communion as a member of a group of people who have the same belief and that, to us, the bread and wine have to be consecrated and that it actually becomes the body and the blood of Christ. It isn't just a symbol to us and that we can't just pretend that we believe the way another demonination believes without feeling that we are betraying our own beliefs, in fact, that we are betraying Jesus. As far as being 'blessed', I just didn't feel right about being blessed by someone who isn't a priest. About the Crucifix I just said that it is a much more poignant reminder of what Jesus did for us. It just has more meaning than a bare cross. It makes us focus more on Jesus than just a pretty piece of jewelry.
I think as long as we don't get too emotional about it and try to explain logically why we believe the way we do, sometimes at least some people will listen. I told my sister one time that it seems very ironic to me that Baptists criticize Catholics for infant Baptism, because they believe all children are 'saved' and yet they believe that if one doesn't have a 'believer's' Baptism it doesn't 'count'. I still haven't made her understand that our confirmation is much the same thing that a 'believer's Baptism' is to them; that we do confess that Jesus is our savior at confirmation. Oh well, back to the babies in this house now........
Dona
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Wed Apr 18th, 2007 11:44 am |
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Just think if you walked into Willow Creek (or another "like minded" bland following the bland megachurchianity "demoniation" of banality) you'd probably be greeted not with hostility, but simple incredulity. They've taken the Cross out of the main sanctuary with the reason being that"the church is bigger than any one symbol."
That so-called "reason being" could launch a thousand books alone, or perhaps two, the other thousand being frustrated college art majors looking for some work.
Let the Crucifix fixated figure out why Jesus is depicted on the Cross. In the meantime, it looks like you have more important things to do with your grandchildren than getting into an argument with people who have a hard time understanding that the Passion had to occur before the Crowning.
God Bless you and your sister. She'll come around. Just keep loving her to death.
s.
I just loved that accidental misspelling of denomination. Could I possibly use it and spread it around? I won't name names or sources to protect your reputation as an otherwise very good writer.Last edited on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 11:48 am by Steven Barrett
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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Dona Moyer
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Posted: Wed Apr 18th, 2007 12:58 pm |
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Hi, it actually was a typo. I didn't have time to re-read my posting. It is kind of funny how it turned out though. I was just setting up my other computer for PBSKids games for the 4 yr old to play while I fix their lunch and saw there was an answer to my post. Perhaps I will have time later today to check out the rest of the forum. Now back to the kiddies.
Dona
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Wed Apr 18th, 2007 02:26 pm |
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But don't touch that word! It's a very handy adjective, regardless if it can't be found in Webster's.
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For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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reneeville
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Posted: Wed Apr 18th, 2007 10:56 pm |
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It just dawned on me that many NCC's toss "Catholics keep Jesus on the cross" as a baited hook to the vast number of ignorant NCC people regarding Catholicism. I can safely say this... I was one! Oh, I pray that they all may remove the veil from their eyes... and SEE Jesus on the cross.
Easter peace~~
Renee
Talithacumi wrote:
Until I was about 35 or 36 years old (I'm 44 now), I was never aware of any problems with "keeping Jesus on the Cross." It wasn't even an issue at all to me as a Catholic. I was dating a Protestant man at the time and one day he asked me why we Catholics still keep Jesus on the cross. I know I looked as confused as I felt. As a Cradle Catholic, I didn't understand the question. I seem to remember wondering what he was getting at. I mean, did he think that we thought it was really Jesus on there instead of a wooden or metal or plastic carving of Jesus? Was he that stupid? (hey, not trying to be insulting... maybe I was the stupid one for not knowing what he was getting at).
It suddenly - somehow - registered in my brain that he (and apparently others who had taught him) thought that by "keeping Jesus on the cross" it must mean that we Catholics didn't believe in the Resurrection. With what must have been an incredulous look on my face, I asked him if that's what he thought and he said he'd heard that and he was just wondering.
Honestly, I don't remember exactly how I responded. I think, being the very un-subtle person that I tend to be, I did mention that we didn't believe it was really Jesus on there... but just a carving to depict His image; we aren't idolators! And anyone who thinks we are "keeping Jesus on the cross" by way of those images must be an idolator themselves! I think I then went on to try to explain my own experiences on how a crucifix affected me. When I am very sad and I look at a crucifix, it makes me remember that Jesus died for all of us and that He suffered like us - and even so much more! When I see a crucifix I remember that I can offer up my sufferings along with His, and that, as St. Paul says, my sufferings can help to make up for what was lacking in the suffering of Christ. It makes me realize that we are all here to help each other out and that my own suffering can somehow be efficacious if I offer it up. When I see a crucifix it makes me realize that my suffering is so puny compared to what He suffered and that I have no right to really complain. When I see a crucifix it reminds me that God so loved the world that He sent His only Son to die for us, that Jesus conquered Sin and Death, that through His death and resurrection, we now may have life eternally.
In short, I tried to explain that the crucifix is a reminder to us of how much Jesus loved us. There are two things that Fr. John Corapi (for those who are familiar with him) says that I always remember. One goes something like this: "No pain, no gain. No gall, no glory. No cross, no crown." And the other is: "You can't have the Resurrection without the Crucifixion." (I'm picturing him speaking in his direct and no-nonsense Sean Connery-like voice...).
Anyway, I told that to my ex bf, and at the time he seemed to consider what I said. Over time, though, well, let's just say his family and church saw me as a threat because of my Catholicism. Our relationship ended, in large part because of their un-acceptance of my being a Catholic. Enough said on that score.
But I am still constantly amazed when I hear about how some people go on about us "keeping Jesus on the Cross." Looking at an empty cross does very little for me, personally. I mean, empty crosses are OK - there's nothing wrong with the symbolism, but to belittle a crucifix!... Personally, when I hear people talk like that it reminds me of a "prosperity gospel" mindset - as if suffering is caused by our having no faith, and that it is to be avoided at all costs. Heaven forbid that we might have to imitate Christ and suffer for the sake of others! No, pasting a cheerful smile on our face at all times and boasting that we're "saved" and we're oh-so-happy all the time is so much better (Can anyone say "rose-colored glasses"?). OK, I hope I don't sound too sarcastic there... I'm not trying to say that Christians shouldn't be joyful! But only that I don't think we should pretend that life is always going to be rosy as long as we "believe on Jesus Christ and confess Him with our mouths."
There is suffering in the world. The crucifix brings home the reality of it, but points to the hope of the Glory of the Resurrection.
Sorry I went so long on this... I was just reminded of a personal experience and thought I'd share my thoughts on it. Hope y'all don't mind.
JMJ
- Cheri
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An Adult faith does not follow the waves of fashion and the latest novelties.
Pope Benedict XVI
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Darlene
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Posted: Wed Apr 18th, 2007 11:30 pm |
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Amen Renee!
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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leavingtheSBC
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Posted: Sun May 6th, 2007 02:23 pm |
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Cheri,
Protestants (True Protestants) know that Catholics believe in the resurrection of Christ.
I was raised Southern Baptist. I was taught that Catholics sacrifice Christ over and over again at mass. Thus committing blasphemy. However, I was never taught that Catholics didn't believe in the resurrection.
I believed this for such a long time. (catholics sacrifice Jesus over and over) However, when Christ opened up my heart to the Catholic Church, the Protestant blinders were removed from my eyes. The Catholic Church believes in a crucified Jesus and a victorious Jesus. We worship both sides of the Messiah. (crucified and victorious) Yet, we proclaim the love of Christ even more to the world by showing them Christ crucified. Jesus said, "what greater love is this than to lay down your life for your brother."
I hope this helps... I am not very good explaining things that come from my heart.
May God bless the Coming Home Network and the Holy Mother Church.
Josh
(leavingtheSBC)
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Talithacumi
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Posted: Mon May 7th, 2007 12:15 am |
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leavingtheSBC wrote: Cheri,
Protestants (True Protestants) know that Catholics believe in the resurrection of Christ...
Josh
(leavingtheSBC)
Josh,
Thanks for the response. I do realize that many, if not most, Christians do believe that Catholics believe in the Resurrection. I was just relating one incident from personal experience with a person who wasn't sure.
But even before he told me that he'd heard Catholics don't believe that Jesus was risen (presumably from his pastors and/or other Protestant friends), I'd heard that many non-Catholics have a problem with the corpus of Jesus on the cross. If it's not because they think Catholics don't believe in the Resurrection, then why is it that they have a problem with it? I could suppose - and maybe even understand - that maybe they don't like us showing such a grotesque display of Jesus; perhaps they think it's insensitive or rude somehow... like showing a picture of a murdered relative or something... or maybe they think it somehow goes against the commandment to not worship "graven images" or something...
Yet the impression that I get when people complain about "leaving Jesus on the Cross" doesn't seem to have anything to do with either of these things. The nuance of the complaint seems to have to do more with what we believe: "Some people still leave Jesus on the Cross" or "Some people still believe that Jesus is still on the cross."
What do they really think we Catholics believe - specifically - by "leaving Him on the Cross"? Just wondering...
JMJ
- Cheri
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“We do not want a Church that will move with the world; we want a Church that will move the world.”
- G.K. Chesterton
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Mon May 7th, 2007 12:59 am |
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