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A Tale of Two (Easter) Services
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MitchyMitch
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 Posted: Sun Apr 8th, 2007 10:53 pm

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In order for me to get a commitment from my Baptist mother to come to my son's future baptism/confirmation, I had to promise to meet her at her church for Easter Sunday Services.

Oh,man...

My son and I had been there before, for Grandparent's Day the previous year. Oddly enough, her pastor is someone I knew from my past, as he was in the same IBF School that I attended, two grades behind me.

My wife, a catholic convert to the Southern Baptist Convention (through Baptism and my insistence that we join the church), and a re-convert back to Catholicism when God worked a miracle in my life, had never had the special occasion to attend an Independent Baptist Church. It was her first time.

Anyway, Steph (my wife) and I had decided to go to our sunrise service prior to Mom's invitation, so we thought it would be a special day to honor my mother in such a way to attend, and it wouldn't interfere with our worship. An hour at our church, some piddling around the house, and an hour at her church before we met the whole family for easter lunch and egg-hunting.

The sunrise service was great. It had been scheduled to be an outside service, but Father Neil would have none of that in the cold spell that has hit our Georgia town. The service was in a well-heated church, and I had dressed with thermal underwear for the outside service. Funny it never got uncomfortably warm.

It was a great service, smaller that the others sure to come for our parish. it was incredibly reverent, as always. To come out of Lent with a clear conscience and a few pounds lighter, it was truly a celebration of our risen Savior, and the much greater sacrifice He had made for our salvation. There was much joy, and to top it off, there was candy in the Narthex for after service. My son had given up candy for Lent, so this was a doubly-good celebration for him.

Piddled at home. Then left for Mom's church.

The choir at mom's church sings all those great old baptist hymns and Gaither songs. Little did we know that this was going to be a contada service with preaching - these run longer than the normal hour. We listened to choir numbers, and then we sang, and sang, and sang. I was comforted by many Batist hymns I haven't heard for about four years, and the fond memories of when I was innocent and staunchly Baptist flooded over me. I still could remember the words to "He Lives", and other great songs of the faith.

We sat right behind my mom's Sunday School teacher, a massive, strongly man with a great personality and a soft-yet-gruff appeal. I've always liked the man whenever we'd meet, mostly when I run mom up to her church for something or other. He's down to earth, can hear a whisper at 100 yards, and knows when to drop decorum and joke around. Even when the joke is at my expense, I have never felt slighted by any means. His favorite target is my Mom, who cannot help but laugh when she seems so hurt by others for lesser remarks.

My wife noticed it, and filled me in later. When we were standing for some song, there was a class newsletter with a notes section sticking out of the teacher's Bible. Handwritten on the publication were my wifes name, my name, and "salvation" written next to our names. The heading for this section was "Prayer Request".

Now, one must understand that I had been "saved" in the most Protestant sense of word at the age of 5. Throughout my life, I had rededicated my life to Christ several times, all throughout my IFB education. and more recently, after my wife had been "saved" in the SBC church. I was both shocked and frustrated that my mother could not see me as "saved". However,I quickly decided I would never press the issue with her. I am working on my own judgmentalism and anger, and the last thing I need is for anyone, especially a loved one, to take away and own something I have fought so hard to overcome. I love her very much, so why be angry at her?

The singing came to a stop, finally. A look at the clock said it was 11:51, and I was too relieved that there didn't seem much time for a sermon. Ha! Laugh is on me! The pastor took the pulpit. And preached. On salvation. On works. On how a little prayer we said when we were younger than 7 probably wasn't a salvation prayer. On how works would never save us. On a personal relationship with Jesus was the answer. "Amen" shouts peppered the congregation throughout the sermon, but not from my mouth as I was refuting parts of his sermon in my mind, and praising some parts of it. I was thinking of how I did in fact find a personal relationship with Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit through the Catholic Church. I studied my son, who seemed not to be earing the sermon, but reading the NAB Bible with great interest (I think he was reading about the crucifixion, because we had finally let him see The Passion of the Christ the night before. "Whew," I thought. "at least he isn't taking any of this in."

Then the altar call came. The longest altar call I have ever witnessed. It must have been thirty minutes. It had tricks that I had never seen before, some got me worried about how it may affect my son. The pastor had asked all of us that were assured of our salvation to raise our hands. I did, my wife did, my mom did. My son, who knows the importance of baptism in the Catholic Church, and knows he was never baptized, struggled with this. He had in fact accepted Jesus as his savior, but at a time when we were breaking with the Baptist Church, so he was never baptized. Getting him into a catechism class has been hard due to scheduling up to now, but he is in one for next year.

"With every head bowed, and every eye closed" except my eyes, the Pastor asked if those who didn't raise their hands would raise them. My son didn't. The pastor went on about those whose hands were now raised were invited to the altar to pray for salvation. For those who didn't want to come could leave their hands raised for the pastor to pray for them. He kept up this type of talk for at least 10 minutes or so.

When we left, my son asked me a most poignant question: why did the pastor keep talking and talking? And why wasn't the service more reverent to Christ and His resurrection?



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CajunRick
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 Posted: Sun Apr 8th, 2007 11:46 pm

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That is a great tale, Mitch.  Maybe the issue of your salvation and conversion will serve as an opening some day to a new understanding by your mom.  At least she is still concerned about you.  She hasn't written you off entirely.  And your son definitely sounds like his faith is in the right place.

Can I hear an "Amen"?



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sweetyface17
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 Posted: Mon Apr 9th, 2007 10:41 am

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Amen brother Rick!

That is a great story. You handled the prayer request thing very well. I don't know if I could have been so passive if I was in that situation. I'm glad your son has such a grasp on truth. That's such a blessing.

~Mandy

 


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Truthseeker
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 Posted: Mon Apr 9th, 2007 03:38 pm

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I heard an ad for a Billy Graham crusade this summer to be held at the place where he had his first (where it all started).  The ad played a clip from his first crusade, where he had the very first altar call.  His words were, "if you accept Christ as your savior, come forward as a SYMBOL of your commitment to Christ".  I'm paraphrasing the statement, but the word symbol was in it.  The very first altar call was a symbolic gesture!  I immediately wondered, after everyone began to think his symbol actually saved them,  why he never corrected their mistaken idea, and I wondered why they played that clip (and apparantly, didn't even realize what it actually said). 

The one act, that all protestants teach and believe saves them, was a symbolic act, first done by a current pastor (in the seventies? eighties?). I was stunned by it. 

Laura



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MitchyMitch
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 Posted: Mon Apr 9th, 2007 05:45 pm

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Thanks, Rick, sweety.

There was a time when I would have handled it without any pretense of grace at all. God has really worked on this ever since I was in RCIA, when I was called to be a new creature, respectful of other Christians and to honor my mother.

My mom, God bless her, is one of those judgmental Baptists you so often hear about. She is also somewhat OCD. Once she gets something in her mind, it is rather stuck there and she can't be convinced otherwise.

Don't let thisbe the full picture of mom. She is a talented pianist, has been very giving to her children all of her life, and has the strongest work ethic of anyone I know. Her faith has quite sustained her after the death of dad when I was 6. She is God-fearing, truly dedicated to her church, and has become quite a blessing to others in her retirement community as she takes the older, infirmed, and less mobile ones to their doctor appointments, dinner, grocery store, and ice cream outings.

I want her to have peace and rest in her old age, so I don't want to argue with her after a lifetime of arguments. It'd be nice to have some way I can convince her of God's saving grace through Jesus Christ in my life and my wife's, and my son's as well. But we cannot convince her against her will. All I can do is pray that God will open her eyes.

So, I merely thanked her for inviting us to her service, agreed that the music was nice, and remarked how nice it was to see her pastor again. I also told her how blessed she is to have found a church she feels so at home in, and blessed with the Christian friends she has made tere. As she remarked that we didn't fill out the visitor's card, I explained that we had a nice church home, and that we didn't want to waste the Pastor's important time when we didn't have an intention of joining.



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Pax,
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CajunRick
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 Posted: Mon Apr 9th, 2007 06:58 pm

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MitchyMitch wrote: Thanks, Rick, sweety.
Nobody's called me "sweety" for a long time, Mitch, and frankly I wish you wouldn't do it again!  :P



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MitchyMitch
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 Posted: Mon Apr 9th, 2007 07:09 pm

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Of course, I meant it in the most Protestant, manly, non-touchy-feely way.

Another reason to like the Catholic Church - we sure do hug a lot!



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Pax,
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sweetyface17
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 Posted: Tue Apr 10th, 2007 12:46 pm

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cajunrick wrote: MitchyMitch wrote: Thanks, Rick, sweety.
Nobody's called me "sweety" for a long time, Mitch, and frankly I wish you wouldn't do it again!  :P

LOL! Oh, you guys are so funny. That made my day. Thanks. :D


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Steven Barrett
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 Posted: Tue Apr 10th, 2007 01:35 pm

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:D
Mitch, have you been taking notes on Garrison Keillor? This post was great!
I surely hope that Baptist church had good ventilation, (besides the pastor.)

I also chuckled a bit with your mention about Graham's call for people to receive the Lord in a symbolic manner. Kinda reminds me of what another Southern Catholic, Flannery O'Connor said about the symbolic nature of Protestant communions: "If it's just symbolic, to hell with it."

Well, she could be a bit caustic. But she also reminded me of how much a treasure we have in our Eucharist. It's the Lord, right before us, in body and blood.

Hope I'll be forgiven for a bit of triumphalism, but no altar calls or symbolic rituals, or all the bible thumping in the world can top the Lord Himself!
:)



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Steve seeking understanding
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 Posted: Tue Apr 10th, 2007 03:21 pm

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Dear Mitch,

I want to thank you for your spirit of humility and grace.  I've been raised a Protestant and currently attend a Baptist church. I have been interested in Roman Catholicism for several years now and just came across this site yesterday (became a member today).  The criticisms and frusterations that I see directed towards Protestants in this forum are for the most part generally expressed respectfully or at least with restrained amusement or frustration.  

I appreciate your tone and your desire to focus on areas of agreement.  You seem to look for the good even in the situations that frustrate you.  Even though I have always been Protestant, I have developed a great respect for the Roman Catholic church and I want to learn more.  Recently my niece (who has been attending a Catholic college) was on a trip to Rome and has upset the entire family by announcing that she is 'converting' and becoming a Roman Catholic.  This has striken fear and panic into my entire family.  I am actually impressed by and excited about her decision and am praying for her and the rest of the family as well.  I have tried to have balanced discussions with the family concerning my views on Roman Catholicism before and have rocked the boat considerably simply by expressing my sympathies and focusing on areas of agreement. 

I am encouraged not only by what you hay but how you say it - never condescending.  I hope that the Spirit will guide me as I try and support my niece and as I continue to explore my own journey as well.   

Pax Christi,

Steven

- my first post by the way -


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Steven Barrett
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 Posted: Tue Apr 10th, 2007 03:45 pm

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:)
Steven,
Gutsy first post! Welcome to the gang and hopefully soon to the Catholic Church. Praying also that the big fear overtaking your family will soon also subside, especially when they really get a fair look at Catholicism.

Being an Anglican, you can be rest assured, and pass this assurance throughout your family, that unlike the ECUSA, we're still in one piece and will stay that way until the Second Coming. I wish the more traditionalist Anglicans all the best in the world, but I have a hunch that they, too, will eventually find many of their parishioners swiming the Tiber. The ECUSA is a wounded church, but that makes it more unpredictable (and dangerous to the souls of its remaining members who don't mind gay bishops and priests marrying gays.)

God be with you and your family.

Steven

If I recall, a wise Polish man wrote a book fairly recently with the title, "Be Not Afraid!" which, by the way, is a good welcoming greeting as well! :)



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MitchyMitch
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 Posted: Tue Apr 10th, 2007 04:02 pm

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Steve,

Thanks for the encouragement and the blessings of your response.

Everything I know about God, about Jesus, and about my own salvation, the Baptist Church has taught me through Sunday services and a strict IFB education. While I have been through detours of bitterness towards my conservative Baptist past, I have come to appreciate my upbringing very much, especially the emphasis on Scripture reading.

With suprisingly few corrections in belief, I entered the Catholic Church with my faith in God through Jeus Christ intact, even magnified. The Baptist Church taught me about God and leading a holy life, being open to the will of God. Through this, God led me to the Catholic Church, which has taught me a lot about grace, empathy in service to God, and the ecclesiastical body of Christ as an authority on earth.

I am prayerfully and fearfully anticipating a day in the near future when I am visited by my mom's pastor and/or Sunday School teacher. While I do not look forward to any conflicting debate (I'm good at debate, but somehow the love of God does not come through in such discussions), I am quite looking forward to sharing a testimony and a reason for my hope. Perhaps, they can relay to my mom the faith and love I have for the Savior, and ease her troubled conscience.

Great news about your niece. Are you feeling the call, or just want to know more about RCC? There are severalgreat sites and books tailored to specific interests, such as the early church and church fathers, theology, etc. Catholic Answers is a great source to questions, and they have a podcast that I listen to regularly.

Last edited on Tue Apr 10th, 2007 04:30 pm by MitchyMitch



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Steve seeking understanding
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 Posted: Thu Apr 12th, 2007 04:02 pm

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Me personally?

Well I suppose I feel caught in between.  My curiosity about Catholicism certainly amounts to something more than religious or theological tourism.  There are still aspects of Catholic doctrine which I find very hard to swallow or at very least make me feel quite uncomfortable. However, I could say the same thing about certain Protestant / Baptist doctrines (sola fidei, Sola Scriptura, Calvin’s doctrine of double predestination, Zwingli’s understanding of the Lord’s Supper/Eucharist/Mass, and so on…).     

Now I recognize that no tradition will have doctrinal or theological position(s) that entirely conform to my own convictions and perspectives. And to a certain degree, this is good since my own thinking needs to be redeemed and nurtured so that it can grow beyond the errors and limitations that I carry. Yet, I strongly believe that reason is a gracious and precious gift from God and if reason is prayerfully guided by the Spirit, we will be lead into a deeper understanding of who God is and what he wishes his children – the Church - to be. God’s ways are far above my ways but there is much that he wishes to reveal in order to draw me into communion with himself.

Faith seeking understanding leads us more deeply into the Truth lying at the foundation of everything which has being – and that Truth is the Mystery of the Trinitarian God who is Eternal Love. But this kind of understanding (standing under?) can only drive us to our knees and back to an even greater faith.

I seek such understanding and this may lead me on a journey to Rome.  But at the same time such a change would cause tremendous strain on my marriage and in my relationships with friends and family.  As you would expect, I don’t take these things lightly and so I tread carefully – but I tread, nevertheless.

At this point I am seeking ways to build positive relationships with Catholics and to achieve a better understanding of Catholicism.  I believe that both are ways to break down the walls that have tragically separated people who have in different ways genuinely desired to follow Christ in the way they understand and believe to be authentic and most pleasing to our Lord. If this leads me to Rome … (I consider the possibility with a smile on my face). 

[size=Steven]


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CajunRick
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 Posted: Thu Apr 12th, 2007 07:27 pm

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Steve seeking understanding wrote: - my first post by the way -

And my apologies for not catching it sooner.  Welcome to CHN.  We're glad to have you here with us.  We'll do our best to answer any questions you might have about the Catholic faith, and to help you on your faith journey wherever it might lead you.

Again, welcome.  We're glad to have you here wtih us.



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heardclarke
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 Posted: Wed Apr 18th, 2007 11:04 pm

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Dear Steve,

Welcome, and may you find joy in seeking the truth. You "consider the possibility with a smile....." and that takes me back to when I thought my family would be scandalized by my joining the Catholic Church. It was like having discovered a really great secret. Could this really be true? Could it be possible for ME?

I waited a long time before asking my husband what he thought of it. And to my surprise he said "Go ahead. It's a big commitment and it's your decision." A few years earlier I really don't believe he would have accepted it. The real miracle happened shortly after John Paul's funeral and the election of Benedict. My husband, a lapsed Catholic for twenty years, waited till I was confirmed and then quietly went to Confession and came home.

Check out the posts on remaining connected to a Protestant church family. It seems like a lot of us are doing that. Also, if you haven't already, you might really like reading Scott Hahn's book "Rome Sweet Home." He was an evangelical theology professor who converted and he had some serious debates with his colleagues--and family!

Lisa



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Steve seeking understanding
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 Posted: Thu Apr 19th, 2007 05:15 pm

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Dear Rick and Lisa,

Thank you for the welcome.  I began writing a response that ended up being far too long. At least at this point, I just wanted to say that it is a relief for me to find a place where I can discuss the questions that float around in my head with people who won't respond to me as though I have lost my mind.  What is the appropriate way to enter into these discussions?  Is there a place where I should make an introduction/confession? [AAA style - Yes, uhhh ... it is true, I am (pausing with a look of shame :)) curious and even respectfully interested in the Catholic church.] 

All kidding aside, there is much I want to say and ask but I do not want to put something in the wrong place or burden anybody with endless ramblings that they'll never get through anyhow.

So, thank you for a warm welcome. And Scott Hahn's book is a very good recommendation.  I have much in common with him.  I will look for it.

The peace of Christ to you all,

Steve  


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CajunRick
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 Posted: Thu Apr 19th, 2007 05:35 pm

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Steve seeking understanding wrote: I began writing a response that ended up being far too long.
As you can tell, around here, length is seldom a problem.  However, just for ease of posting and reading, you might want to break it down into manageable chunks.

At least at this point, I just wanted to say that it is a relief for me to find a place where I can discuss the questions that float around in my head with people who won't respond to me as though I have lost my mind.
Most of us have lost our minds at one time or another.  St. Anthony is the patron of lost items, and he helps us to find them.  ;)  (Yes, humor is very important here!)

What is the appropriate way to enter into these discussions? Is there a place where I should make an introduction/confession? [AAA style - Yes, uhhh ... it is true, I am (pausing with a look of shame :)) curious and even respectfully interested in the Catholic church.]
Simply ask.  If you would like to post your conversion story, it should go into the Conversion Stories area.  A general introduction would go in Fellowship Hall.

Questions about Eucharist belong in the Eucharist area, about Confirmation in the Confirmation area, etc..  If you're not sure where to put it, place it in Fellowship Hall and we'll move it if necessary.  We do ask that you try to restrict questions to a single topic, so please don't put questions about baptism and marriage in the same post.  Also, as a matter of courtesy, please try to keep threads to the subject of the topic area.  Often as we read one thing, it will bring up another idea.  If it's not directly related to the thread you're reading, hit "New Topic" instead of "Reply" and we'll move it if necessary.  We can't move individual posts, only entire threads, so that's why it's important to start a new thread.  We really do try to be gentle and accommodating, but two-thirds of our visitors never register, and a third of our registered users never post, so it's important to us that they can find answers to their questions easily.

All kidding aside, there is much I want to say and ask but I do not want to put something in the wrong place or burden anybody with endless ramblings that they'll never get through anyhow.
Endless ramblings are sort of a specialty of some of our users ... and some of our moderators (especially that crazy Cajun!).

The peace of Christ to you all,
As a good (older) Catholic would say, Et cum spiritu tuo.



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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine

Rick Luquette
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MitchyMitch
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 Posted: Thu Apr 19th, 2007 05:59 pm

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"Endless ramblings are sort of a specialty of some of our users ... "


Guilty!


Steve,

Just jump in! The water is fine. Many knowledgable people here, and just about all subjects you want to talk about, someone will have an answer or perspective.

Welcome to the board!



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Pax,
Mitch

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heardclarke
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 Posted: Thu Apr 19th, 2007 06:30 pm

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Hey Steve,

Feel free to ramble on. I for one love to read anything from someone who is wrestling thoughtfully with the same questions I and my loved ones have been. You'll find a lot of "kindred spirits" here and very little judging. We have all had our "dark night of the soul."

Pax.

Lisa



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