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Darlene
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| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
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| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Fri Apr 27th, 2007 08:44 pm |
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Ok folks, give me your opinions. What do you think of the changes in the Catholic Church since Vatican II? Mention the change/changes that you think are for the better or worse and why. Please take the poll as well. I would love to have as much of your input as possible. And it would be nice if someone could post a reliable web site that addresses this topic. Thanks so much.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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BodRod
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Posted: Fri Apr 27th, 2007 09:50 pm |
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Darlene wrote: Mention the change/changes that you think are for the better ......
That is an easy one. They let me in !!!!! 
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Darlene
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| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Fri Apr 27th, 2007 10:47 pm |
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BodRod wrote: Darlene wrote: Mention the change/changes that you think are for the better ......
That is an easy one. They let me in !!!!!
BodRod, Could you please take the poll? Thanks.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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BodRod
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Posted: Fri Apr 27th, 2007 11:19 pm |
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I did before I posted.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Apr 27th, 2007 11:54 pm |
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Darlene wrote: Mention the change/changes that you think are for the better or worse and why.
DISCLAIMER: This response entirely represents my own opinion!!!!! I am not speaking for CHN, or pretending to represent Church teaching in any way! There is no sense arguing with my opinion (because an opinion is what was asked for), but you are certainly free to disagree with it. I am speaking as a cradle Catholic and a forum user, NOT as a moderator!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can't count that high. I think all of the changes were positive. That's not to say the implementation has always been proper, but unless you were part of the Church prior to Vatican II, you can't imagine the change in mentality that resulted from the Council. All of a sudden, lay people mattered. We became part of the worship, and Vatican II gave us a right to be involved in the life of our parish church. Before that, the only difference between mass with a congregation and mass without a congregation is that if there was no congregation, the priest didn't have to distribute communion. It literally didn't matter if the people were there or not.
There has been a loss of reverence, but that's not the fault of the Council. It's the fault of the bishops and the priests. In many cases they delegated too much, and took too many liberties. They read articles in liberal magazines that assumed they had the power to do things they never could, and once they assumed those powers, it was hard to take them back. Bishops allowed it. But the problem wasn't Vatican II, any more than you can say World War I caused prohibition just because prohibition followed World War I.
Vatican II has gotten a lot of bad mouthing from certain elements on both ends of the spectrum, but we have to remember that two of the loudest voices at the Council were a Polish bishop-theologian named Karol Wojtyla and a German priest-theologian named Josef Ratzinger, along with another German priest-theologian, Karl Rahner, a Jesuit who many conservatives considered a heretic. Rahner and Ratzinger entered the Council as fellow liberals; Ratzinger is generally considered to have left the Council as moderate-to-conservative. If you wonder about their relative merit in the eyes of the Council Fathers, Wojtyla and Ratzinger became popes; Rahner died a priest. (If you want to know whether a given book written in the 20th century has a "liberal" slant, see how many times they quote Rahner.)
The pope at the end of the Council, Paul VI, was not a theologian but considered a brilliant administrator, and concentrated on reform of the Curia (the Vatican offices). It is possible he approved some things he later wished he had not, especially later in his pontificate when he was ill.
It is generally conceded by historians that it takes 50 years for the results of a major Council to be fully "assimilated" by the Church. There are forty years of turmoil, and in the last 10 years things settle to a "new normal". We are now at 42 years after the close of Vatican II, and the settling has begun. What's important to the life of the Church is not what has happened in the last 42 years, but what will happen in the next 8. Think of a swinging pendulum. The undulations are widest at the beginning, and toward the end of its swing, it's barely moving in the middle.
This is probably the most exciting time to be a lay Catholic since the days of house churches and the legalization of Christianity in the Roman Empire. With Pope Benedict, we are looking back at those worthwhile things we have lost, such as Gregorian chant and the Latin language, and those things are being emphasized again. I hope the Holy Father will authorize greater use of Latin in the mass, but frankly I hope he requires the use of the Liturgy of Paul VI, the revised Lectionary, and the revised Liturgical Calendar, rather than the earlier missal, and especially the earlier Lectionary and calendar. The loss of two-thirds of the scripture in the mass, and the return of scripture readings in Latin, would be too great a loss. To return to the "Tridentine" rite would be a giant step backwards.
Any parish can use a communion rail today. Any parish can instill an atmosphere of reverence today. The priest can face the same direction as the people today. Any parish can improve music today. The pope and the bishops don't need to do anything to authorize it (unless approval is needed to renovate a church). Any parish can use Latin in the music and in prayers. (The bishop's approval is needed for mass in Latin.) Vatican II did not do away with these things. It merely gave those people who favored the changes the excuse they were looking for to implement them. And the people who wanted rock-n-roll masses and a gymnasium atmosphere drowned out the people who wanted to keep the reverential atmosphere. The "pre-Vatican II" Catholics who had never had a say in what happened in their parishes stood by helpless while the "post-Vatican II" Catholics took charge.
So if you want things to change in your parish church (not you specifically, Darlene, but anyone), the answer is to get involved in your parish and expect the changes to happen. Make sure that the Pastoral Council, the altar ministers, the ushers, and every other parish group begins and ends every parish activity with prayer. Expect reverence. Expect modesty. Challenge your priest and bishop when it doesn't happen. And if it continues not to happen, ask your priest if he can suggest a parish where liturgy and reverence and modesty and beautiful music are important. Or ask him to allow one mass a weekend with an expectation of solemnity. Work for a change.
Because of Vatican II, each one of us has the power to do it and the right to expect it. Without Vatican II, we have no rights and expectations at all.
So I think each and every element of Vatican II was good. It's time now to get back to what the Council Fathers actually wanted, and that is the Church instituted by Jesus Christ and established by the apostles and the Church Fathers.
BTW, this is all just my opinion. Some of it is my memory; some is my experiences with "Kumbya" masses and liturgical experimentations; and some comes from my studies which began shortly before Vatican II. I can't really prove any of it because it's all my opinion. I'm not aware of any web site that addresses any of this. All of the web sites I've seen cover the matter are either using Vatican II to prove that the Church is apostate, or that the Church has approved "cafeteria Catholicism".
If you really want proof, read the Documents of Vatican II. You'll find that the things you don't like aren't in there anywhere! And that's the real proof.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
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| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Sat Apr 28th, 2007 12:24 am |
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Wow, Rick has spoken!
   
Thanks for your reply. I really enjoyed it.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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heardclarke
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| Joined: | Mon Apr 9th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
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| First Name: | Lisa | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Episcopalian; confirmed RC Easter 2005 |
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Posted: Sat Apr 28th, 2007 12:38 am |
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I second Darlene's opinion. What a great explanation. I knew many of these things but you really "connected the dots" there! Thank!
Lisa
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Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
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AB
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Posted: Sat Apr 28th, 2007 03:51 pm |
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Rick,
I appreciate your reply and mostly agree. My observation, however, would be that there is both wisdom and foolishness on both sides of the theological divide (in both the Catholic and Protestant communities). In several respects, both Wojtyla and Ratzinger have been much too liberal for many. For example, both have been criticized for their openness to dialogue with other faith traditions, and both have used the "modern" breakthroughs of Vatican II to great advantage in their papacies.
The church (in its most universal--Catholic--sense) has always needed to struggle with how to make itself intelligible to the times and cultures in which it has found itself while not letting go of anything that is indispensible. This on-going dialogue (argument?) in the church is actually very helpful in that it uncovers the critical issues, and it informs the decision-making mechanism in the church so that it can respond faithfully to the work of the Holy Spirit.
In some ways, it was Vatican I that was more of an anomaly. In seeking to understand the timelessness of the church, many understood Vatican I as somehow insulating the church from changes occurring in the larger world. So for many, the church got "stuck" at one particular point of human history. (Please note that I have not said that "the church" made an error or got stuck.) Vatican I was as controversial as Vatican II in a mirror image kind of way.
As for the Latin Mass, I agree that it is beautiful and deeply tied to our common tradition, but there are fewer and fewer people who can understand it today. When I was in high school (forty years ago) a large portion of college-bound students studied Latin. Now it's difficult to find a high school that would offer Latin, and precious few colleges and universities do. In many ways, English is the new Latin. It's just not nearly as elegant.
AB
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Apr 28th, 2007 04:09 pm |
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AB wrote: In several respects, both Wojtyla and Ratzinger have been much too liberal for many.
Certainly. And I can't say I agree with everything they have accomplished either. If I had been allowed to make decisions, many things would be different. In God's wisdom, however, I have not been named Servant of the Servants of God. As I have stated many times, my opinion really doesn't matter until the Holy Father calls me and asks for it. Meanwhile, I accept his authority and decisions even when I disagree.
As for the Latin Mass, I agree that it is beautiful and deeply tied to our common tradition, but there are fewer and fewer people who can understand it today. When I was in high school (forty years ago) a large portion of college-bound students studied Latin. Now it's difficult to find a high school that would offer Latin, and precious few colleges and universities do. In many ways, English is the new Latin. It's just not nearly as elegant.
Actually, I was surprised to learn recently that Latin has been added to the curriculum in our local high school, and I've been told by teachers that studies of Latin are increasing. In the global economy, people are starting to realize that learning the root language of so many modern tongues helps to learn the modern languages more easily, so studying Latin for a couple of years sets one up to more easily learn Spanish, Italian, French, etc.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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mrsbmoo
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| Location: | Virginia USA |
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Posted: Sun Apr 29th, 2007 07:32 pm |
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I am a bit young to remember the time before, but from the experiences with Catholics of my childhood and my sister's commentary on the Catholic churches she visited in France in the late 60s I will try to comment on why these changes are positive.
As to what Rick said about it not mattering whether the congregation was there or not, my sister reported the same thing in France. The people would be in the room chatting or otherwise occupying themselves while the priest did his thing. There was no sense of a team effort to present worship to God that I experience now.
I know the Catholic children I knew as a child were as elitist as many protestant children are now. They often were discouraged from forming friendships with non-catholics. The only place you spent time with them was at school or Girl scout type things. My mother used to complain about people she knew who married Catholics having to sign papers giving the Catholic parent control of the children's upbringing, etc. Non-Catholics were looked on as inferior and suspect. I remember my parents being invited to the wedding of the child of our neighbor. They were treated as odd outsiders because they were not Catholic, having to sit separately, etc. I would like to think most of that attitude is gone.
In fact, I was harshly given the cold shoulder by my evangelical church when my first husband left me for another woman. I was suspected of trying to steal other people's husbands and blamed for the adultery. I ended up having to attend only women's events in self defense. Pretty much I was told because I was divorced, I was damaged goods and couldn't help with many ministries. In contrast, I was warmly welcomed by Catholics, assured my children would never be treated differently because their parents were divorced(which happened at the other church), and I could attend without even converting, they were just glad to have me.
My husband also reports that when his parents were married(his mother converted from Episcopalian), a priest came to the house to remove any Bibles and insure they acquired no more. They were told they were incompetent to read the scripture for themselves and only needed to do what the priest told them. I would have never become Catholic if that was still true. We have several Bible studies for adults at our church and while I would still say the majority of adults don't attend, there are plenty who do and the numbers are growing.There is teaching with authority then there is abuse of authority. I was told if I felt strongly that what the church told me was wrong, I was not bound to obey but only to be open to reasoning by the church. Like for example, if they started burning Muslims at the stake, I would not have to help.
You know looking back at the many negative experiences I had while young with Catholics, it is amazing I ever ended up here, isn't it?
____________________
Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 10 months and 17
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heardclarke
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Posted: Mon Apr 30th, 2007 10:55 am |
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Dear Rick,
Thanks for pointing out that Latin is not quite dead yet!
As a matter of fact the Episcopal university from which I graduated (Sewanee) still offers a Classics major (I know someone who majored in it and graduated in 2006) and many Catholic ones do. Also the Episcopal grade school I attended required Latin in every grade beginning with 5th and ending with 12th. I have recently discovered that even some public "magnet" schools offer Latin, and a Catholic school I know of requitres it from kindergarten on.
Texas is not known for being particularly innovative or challenging academically, so I am sure we are not alone in this. My husband also tells me that Latin was brought back in Rhode Island schools when he was in high school.
As for Pope Benedict and John Paul being too innovative for some, as another writer mentioned, thank you for reminding us that the Holy Spirit guided the cardinals in those elections. I think they probably knew what they were doing!
Lisa
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Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
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