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Eastern Orthodoxy
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kololam77
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 Posted: Tue Nov 27th, 2007 11:21 am

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Not looking for heated debate, simply a finger pointing to some simple Catholic resources regarding the schism of 1052  (or so) and how the modern Roman Catholic Church - formally speaking - views the Eastern Orthodox communion (not the Oriental Orthodox Churches which broke in about the 5th century or so when the church was still one).

Trust everyone is well.



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BodRod
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 Posted: Tue Nov 27th, 2007 11:31 am

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Try a Google search. I just did and found pages of info on the topic. :)



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kololam77
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 Posted: Tue Nov 27th, 2007 12:20 pm

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I was actually looking for formal RC sanctioned material OR a moderator or someone on this forum who is knowledgeable enough to respond.



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 Posted: Tue Nov 27th, 2007 02:23 pm

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From the Catechism:

[url=javascript:openWindow('cr/1399.htm');]1399[/url] The Eastern churches that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church celebrate the Eucharist with great love. "These Churches, although separated from us, yet possess true sacraments, above all - by apostolic succession - the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are still joined to us in closest intimacy." A certain communion in sacris, and so in the Eucharist, "given suitable circumstances and the approval of Church authority, is not merely possible but is encouraged."238
 

There a many other posts under Christ Unity section

http://chnetwork.org/forums/forum44/

I would start reading there to norrow your question down, as that is a very broad subject.

 


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Esther
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 Posted: Tue Nov 27th, 2007 02:47 pm

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This is a good article:

http://www.catholic.com/library/eastern_orthodoxy.asp


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CajunRick
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 Posted: Tue Nov 27th, 2007 03:41 pm

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kololam77 wrote: I was actually looking for formal RC sanctioned material OR a moderator or someone on this forum who is knowledgeable enough to respond.
The Catholic Church recognizes both the Oriental and Orthodox Churches as true Churches with valid orders and sacraments.  In fact, the Catholic Church allows members of the Orthodox and Oriental faiths to receive the sacraments of Eucharist, Penance, and Anointing of the Sick along side Catholics, subject to the disciplines of their own Churches.  (The Orthodox do not permit their members to accept sacraments from a Catholic priest except in case of emergency.)  From a Catholic standpoint, we accept full intercommunion with the Orthodox.

The link to the Catholic Answers article Esther posted is excellent and should give you a perspective on the causes of the schism and the current state of relations.

I'm not sure if this is the information you were seeking, so please feel free to ask any additional questions.


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Dave Armstrong
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 Posted: Tue Nov 27th, 2007 07:33 pm

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From The Code of Canon Law, Book IV:
Can. 844 §1 Catholic ministers may lawfully administer the sacraments only to catholic members of Christ's faithful, who equally may lawfully receive them only from catholic ministers, except as provided in §2, 3 and 4 of this canon and in can. 861 §2.

§2 Whenever necessity requires or a genuine spiritual advantage commends it, and provided the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, Christ's faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a catholic minister, may lawfully receive the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.

§3 Catholic ministers may lawfully administer the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick to members of the eastern Churches not in full communion with the catholic Church, if they spontaneously ask for them and are properly disposed. The same applies to members of other Churches which the Apostolic See judges to be in the same position as the aforesaid eastern Churches so far as the sacraments are concerned.

§4 If there is a danger of death or if, in the judgment of the diocesan Bishop or of the Episcopal Conference, there is some other grave and pressing need, catholic ministers may lawfully administer these same sacraments to other Christians not in full communion with the catholic Church, who cannot approach a minister of their own community and who spontaneously ask for them, provided that they demonstrate the catholic faith in respect of these sacraments and are properly disposed.

[Dave: Canon 861 §2 states that in emergency situations, anyone who has the right intention, can baptize]
The Catholic Church has great respect for Orthodoxy and we long for the day when the schism can be mended. There are significant current attempts to bring that about. Pope John Paul II wrote an excellent Apostolic Letter in 1995 entitled Orientale Lumen ("The Light of the East"). He states:
The Christian tradition of the East implies a way of accepting, understanding and living faith in the Lord Jesus. In this sense it is extremely close to the Christian tradition of the West, which is born of and nourished by the same faith. Yet it is legitimately and admirably distinguished from the latter, since Eastern Christians have their own way of perceiving and understanding, and thus an original way of living their relationship with the Saviour. . . .

17. Thirty years have passed since the Bishops of the Catholic Church, meeting in Council in the presence of many brothers from other Churches and Ecclesial Communities, listened to the voice of the Spirit as he shed light on deep truths about the nature of the Church, showing that all believers in Christ were far closer than they could imagine, all journeying towards the one Lord, all sustained and supported by his grace. An ever more pressing invitation to unity emerged at that point.
Since then, much ground has been covered in reciprocal knowledge. This has increased our respect and has frequently enabled us to pray to the one Lord together and to pray for one another, on a path of love that is already a pilgrimage of unity.

After the important steps taken by Pope Paul VI, I have wished the path of mutual knowledge in charity to be continued. I can testify to the deep joy that the fraternal meeting with so many heads and representatives of Churches and Ecclesial Communities has given me in recent years. . . .

24. I believe that one important way to grow in mutual understanding and unity consists precisely in improving our knowledge of one another. The children of the Catholic Church already know the ways indicated by the Holy See for achieving this: to know the liturgy of the Eastern Churches; [62] to deepen their knowledge of the spiritual traditions of the Fathers and doctors of the Christian East, [63] to follow the example of the Eastern Churches for the inculturation of the Gospel message; to combat tensions between Latins and Orientals and to encourage dialogue between Catholics and the Orthodox; to train in specialized institutions theologians, liturgists, historians and canonists for the Christian East who in turn can spread knowledge of the Eastern; Churches; to offer appropriate teaching on these subjects in seminaries and theological faculties, especially to future priests. [64] These remain very sound recommendations on which I intend to insist with particular force.

25. In addition to knowledge, I feel that meeting one another regularly is very important. In this regard, I hope that monasteries will make a particular effort, precisely because of the unique role played by monastic life within the Churches and because of the many unifying aspects of the monastic experience, and therefore of spiritual awareness, in the East and in the West. Another form of meeting consists in welcoming Orthodox professors and students to the Pontifical Universities and other Catholic academic institutions. We will continue to do all we can to extend this welcome on a wider scale. May God also bless the founding and development of places designed precisely to offer hospitality to our brothers of the East, including such places in this city of Rome where the living, shared memory of the leaders of the Apostles and of so many martyrs is preserved. . . .

28. . . . [end section]

We are painfully aware that we cannot yet share in the same Eucharist. Now that the millennium is drawing to a close and our gaze turns to the rising Sun, with gratitude we find these men and women before our eyes and in our heart.

The echo of the Gospel--the words that do not disappoint--continues to resound with force, weakened only by our separation: Christ cries out, but man finds it hard to hear his voice, because we fail to speak with one accord. We listen together to the cry of those who want to hear God's entire Word. The words of the West need the words of the East, so that God's word may ever more clearly reveal its unfathomable riches. Our words will meet for ever in the heavenly Jerusalem, but we ask and wish that this meeting be anticipated in the holy Church which is still on her way towards the fullness of the Kingdom.

May God shorten the time and distance. may Christ, the Orientale Lumen, soon, very soon, grant us to discover that in fact, despite so many centuries of distance, we were very close, because together, perhaps without knowing it, we were walking towards the one Lord, and thus towards one another.

May the people of the third millennium be able to enjoy this discovery, finally achieved by a word that is harmonious and thus fully credible, proclaimed by brothers and sisters who love one another and thank one another for the riches which they exchange. Thus shall we offer ourselves to God with the pure hands of reconciliation, and the people of the world will have one more well-founded reason to believe and to hope.

That is the ecumenical and diplomatic approach. Of course, I myself, being an apologist, have written some material explaining where Catholics and Orthodox have honest differences, and why I am a Catholic and not an Orthodox. See my introductory paper on that topic.

Sometimes, I have been confronted with the sub-group of anti-Catholic Orthodox on the Internet and felt compelled to explain why I thought it was impossible to take a position that Orthodoxy was apostolic while Catholicism supposedly was not (an extreme opinion in these ranks would even hold that Catholicism lacks both sacraments and grace, as well as apostolicity). For more of my papers regarding Orthodoxy, see my Orthodoxy Topical Index page.

Last edited on Wed Nov 28th, 2007 08:16 pm by Dave Armstrong



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CajunRick
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 Posted: Wed Nov 28th, 2007 12:03 am

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CajunRick wrote: From a Catholic standpoint, we accept full intercommunion with the Orthodox.
Dave, thanks for the clarification.  I should have added that this applies only when a Catholic priest is not available.  I was at work and didn't have the time to reply carefuly.

So a Catholic who is in an area without the availability of a Catholic priest may seek the sacraments of Eucharist, Penance, and Anointing of the Sick from an Orthodox priest, especially if a Catholic priest is not available for an extended period.  A member of the Orthodox faith may seek the sacraments of Eucharist, Penance, and Anointing of the Sick from a Catholic priest at any time if an Orthodox priest is not available.


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NotCatholic
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 Posted: Wed Nov 28th, 2007 02:20 am

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Well I have been praying alot and I feel that God is calling me back to Christianity and I just got a book on the Orthodox Church. :)



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 Posted: Wed Nov 28th, 2007 02:42 am

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It's good to hear from you NotCatholic!


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Dave Armstrong
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 Posted: Wed Nov 28th, 2007 05:36 pm

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Hi NotCatholic,

We will certainly rejoice if you choose to become Orthodox rather than no Christian at all. Praise God! You would be a Christian in an apostolic Church that possesses valid sacraments, even though you were, well . . . not Catholic! ;)

 



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gman
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 Posted: Wed Nov 28th, 2007 05:43 pm

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I felt drawn to it as well, but the worship services are an acquired taste, especially the music.  No one sings exept the choir, so there is very little congregational participation.

I took my wife to a service, and I thought she was going to scream and run out of the building. 


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Dave Armstrong
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 Posted: Wed Nov 28th, 2007 06:06 pm

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I thought she was going to scream and run out of the building.

Did she? :shock:



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kololam77
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 Posted: Wed Nov 28th, 2007 06:07 pm

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Thanks so much for all of the assistance.  Some more questions:

How is it that the Roman Catholic Church will commune Oriental Orthodox when in fact this group was declared heretical when the church was still one (prior to 1054)?



It was my understanding that the Eastern Orthodox Church does not accept the primacy of Peter - but the information given here seems to indicate they do - clarification?



Who broke from who?  I do know that my research shows there was much going on politically speaking leading up to the break and I highly doubt it was only an issue of papal authority and the Filoque.



How can the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and the Anglican Church all claim apostolic succession?



If all else is the same re: sacraments, then is the break still because of papal authority and the Filoque and not because of deeper issues of theological difference?



How is it the RC Church states both are in communion, but Eastern Orthodox authorites say they are not?



Finally.......if a divorced and remarried person (no annulment) who is Orthodox needs an emergency sacramental administration - how does the RC Church deal with this issue?



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 Posted: Wed Nov 28th, 2007 06:11 pm

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No, but she made it very clear that even if I am the spiritual head of the household, she would never go again!

The really nice Father showed us a relic (a button), which radiated the smell of myrrh and I could tell my wife was taken aback that it could possibly be real.


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kololam77
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 Posted: Wed Nov 28th, 2007 06:57 pm

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The Eastern Orthodox Church should not be judged by the style of liturgy, but rather by the depths of its theology and its connection to the ancient church prior to any historical schisms.

Peace



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 Posted: Wed Nov 28th, 2007 07:01 pm

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I totally agree, it's too bad that my wife doesn't.  Or else we would probably be attending one. 

EO and RC are very similar for me theologically, but I just feel more comfortable in the RC, plus because I agree with the basic doctrices of both, I am hoping that as a RC, I will have a small chance of convincing my wife to convert, whereas there is zero chance of her converting to EO.



Last edited on Wed Nov 28th, 2007 07:09 pm by gman


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Dave Armstrong
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 Posted: Wed Nov 28th, 2007 07:23 pm

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Hi Matthew,

This is another instance (as with Brian's multiple questions about the Dueterocanon that I carefully replied to yesterday) where there are many huge, complicated, multifaceted issues, so with the many questions, one can only do so much at one time. I could easily spend over a week dealing with all of these issues. With that disclaimer to be kept in mind, I proceed . . .

Thanks so much for all of the assistance. 

You're welcome (for my part of that).

Some more questions:

Yes! Many more . . . :shock:

How is it that the Roman Catholic Church will commune Oriental Orthodox when in fact this group was declared heretical when the church was still one (prior to 1054)?

[Dave, adding this later: I see now that I mis-read your question, thinking you were asking about Eastern Orthodox ("Oriental" meaning "eastern" as it is). I'll give another answer on that below]

As I understand it, the biggest issue at the time was the question of the filioque clause in the western version of the Nicene Creed. I believe the mutual excommunications have been dropped, and with increasing discussion, it can be seen, I believe, that there is far more agreement on this issue than was formerly assumed. A lot of the disagreement had to do with different approaches of eastern and western Christianity, and there were some purely linguistic misunderstandings, too. See the paper from William Klimon on filioque.

Now, here is the answer I should have given:
The schism between Oriental Orthodoxy and what would become the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches occurred in the 5th century. The separation resulted in part from the refusal of Pope Dioscorus, the patriarch of Alexandria, to accept the Christological dogmas promulgated by the Council of Chalcedon, which held that Jesus has two natures — one divine and one human. This was not because the council stated that Christ has two natures, but because the council's presiders refused to confess (more than wordly) that the two natures are inseparable and united. Pope Dioscorus would accept only "of or from two natures" but not "in two natures."

To the hierarchs who would lead the Oriental Orthodox, this was tantamount to accepting Nestorian-flavored terminology, according their definition of Christology, which was founded in the Alexandrine School of Theology that advocated a formula that stressed unity of the Incarnation over all other considerations.

The Oriental Orthodox churches were therefore often called Monophysite churches, although they reject this label, which is associated with Eutychian Monophysitism, preferring the term "non-Chalcedonian" or "Miaphysite" churches. Oriental Orthodox Churches reject the heretical Monophysite teachings of Eutyches, the heretical teachings of Nestorius and the Dyophysite definition of the Council of Chalcedon.

Christology, although important, was not the only reason for the refusal of the Council of Chalcedon - political, ecclesiastical and imperial issues were hotly debated.

In the years following Chalcedon, the patriarchs of Constantinople remained in communion with the non-Chalcedonian patriarchs of Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, while Rome remained out of communion with Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem, and in unstable communion with Constantinople. It was not until 518 AD that the Byzantine Emperor, Justin I, on the ultimatum of the Roman patriarch, demanded that the Church of the Roman Empire be Chalcedonian once and for all. Justin ordered the deposition and replacement of all anti-Chalcedonian bishops, including the patriarchs of Antioch and Alexandria. By 525 AD, anti-Chalcedonian Christians found themselves being persecuted by the Roman Empire; this would not end until the rise of Islam.

In the 20th century, the Chalcedonian schism was not seen with the same relevance any more, and from several meetings between the Roman Catholic Pope and Patriarchs of the Oriental Orthodoxy, reconciling declarations emerged.
“ The confusions and schisms that occurred between their Churches in the later centuries, they realize today, in no way affect or touch the substance of their faith, since these arose only because of differences in terminology and culture and in the various formulae adopted by different theological schools to express the same matter. Accordingly, we find today no real basis for the sad divisions and schisms that subsequently arose between us concerning the doctrine of Incarnation. In words and life we confess the true doctrine concerning Christ our Lord, notwithstanding the differences in interpretation of such a doctrine which arose at the time of the Council of Chalcedon.

From the common declaration of Pope John Paul II and HH Mar Ignatius Zakka I Iwas, June 23, 1984
According to the canons of the Oriental Orthodox Churches, the four Archbishops of Rome, Alexandria, Ephesus (later transferred to Constantinople) and Antioch were all given status as Patriarchs, or in other words, the Ancient Apostolic Centers of Christianity by the First Council of Nicea (predating the schism) — each of the four being responsible for those bishops and churches under his jurisdiction within his own quarter of Christendom, being the Metropolitan Archbishop of the Province, (with the exception of the Archbishop or Patriarch of Jerusalem, who was to be independent of all of these.) Thus, the Archbishop of Rome (ie, the Pope of the Catholic Church) has always been held by the others to be in Communion, and fully sovereign within his own quadrant.

The technical reason for the schism was that the Bishop of Rome excommunicated the non-Chalcedonian bishops in 451 AD for refusing to accept the "in two natures" teaching, thus declaring them to be out of communion with him, although they have continued to recognize him as an equal.

(Wikipedia, "Oriental Orthodoxy")
It was my understanding that the Eastern Orthodox Church does not accept the primacy of Peter - but the information given here seems to indicate they do - clarification?

They do and they don't. Many will freely admit the primacy of Peter himself and even the primacy of the Apostolic Roman See in the early Church. I have a book in my library by prominent Orthodox author John Meyendorff, entitled The Primacy of Peter.

The problem comes with the interpretation of that. Orthodox (and many Anglicans) hold that the primacy was more along the lines of "foremost of equals" (like a prime minister in a parliamentary system of government). catholic dogma teaches that the pope has headship or supremacy, and universal jurisdiction.

Who broke from who? 

We say they broke from us because (we would argue) we continued the unbroken tradition of what came before (including the papacy). I've maintained, among other things, that we still have ecumenical councils (and at the Councils of Florence [15th c.] and Lyons [1274], we even invited the Orthodox and almost achieved a reunion) In two papers on this question (one / two), I showed how, e.g., the east had split off from the west on five different occasions; sometimes for several dozen years. In all five cases, the west was correct and orthodox, from both eastern and western perspectives today.

So, then, I contended that 1054 was simply yet another instance of this schismatic tendency of the east, where they were wrong once again. Once I had an Orthodox priest give a guest talk in a discussion group at my home and when I asked him about this very thing, he just shrugged his shoulders and could not respond to it. No one really has, since I've made this argument.

Of course (as we would expect) the Orthodox think we departed from them, and that they maintained the mainstream apostolic tradition. They argue that papal power had become too great and that the filioque clause was a corruption and illegitimate addition to the Nicene Creed, whereas we say it was a consistent development of trinitarian theology, rightly understood.

I do know that my research shows there was much going on politically speaking leading up to the break and I highly doubt it was only an issue of papal authority and the Filioque.

Absolutely. That is always a factor in these things, as well as the differences in language and culture. The east was subject to the strong tendency of caesaropapism (making the emperor in effect or in actuality the head of the Church, with the state being over the Church): precisely the error that the papacy allows the Church to largely avoid.

How can the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and the Anglican Church all claim apostolic succession?

In the case of Orthodoxy, because they had validly ordained bishops from the previous age when east and west were united. They continued that, so that all their ordinations are valid and apostolic, as we recognize. As for Anglicans, they claim the same thing on the same basis, but we argue that they changed the ordination rites in the 16th century, thus bringing about  an invalid ordination, and hence, loss of apostolicity. There can be some exceptions in some cases . . .

If all else is the same re: sacraments, then is the break still because of papal authority and the Filioque and not because of deeper issues of theological difference?

There are various issues, that I have outlined in my introductory paper. Orthodox tend to see the west as over-rational and insufficiently mystical. I say this is a caricature, but it is true that we place relatively more emphasis on reason than they do. We think our view and approach to the faith is balanced and multi-faceted, but they think it is too far in one direction. They also think we are overly-dogmatic, and should not have defined many things that we did (such as transubstantiation); that we require things that should be left to individual opinion.

How is it the RC Church states both are in communion, but Eastern Orthodox authorities say they are not?

Because many Orthodox jurisdictions are more opposed to us than we are to them. If they had been more open to the ecumenical process, the reunion would already have been accomplished by now (or in the 15th or 13th centuries). There has generally been a great "anti-Latin" animus, that goes back to the Crusades and the  sacking of Constantinople in 1204, etc. (that was not approved by the pope at all).

Finally.......if a divorced and remarried person (no annulment) who is Orthodox needs an emergency sacramental administration - how does the RC Church deal with this issue?

I'm not sure (without doing a bunch of research). It probably depends on the situation. If it was life and death, I'm sure the person could repent of the invalid marriage and receive sacraments. Or there might be some dispensations. That is a good question for the other moderators Rick and David or, better yet, an actual canon lawyer.

I hope my replies have been helpful.

Last edited on Wed Nov 28th, 2007 08:20 pm by Dave Armstrong



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 Posted: Wed Nov 28th, 2007 07:36 pm

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How is it that the Roman Catholic Church will commune Oriental Orthodox . . .

I see now that I mis-read your question, thinking you were asking about Eastern Orthodox ("Oriental" meaning "eastern" as it is).

I have now incorporated the answer I should have given into my long answer above.


Last edited on Wed Nov 28th, 2007 08:13 pm by Dave Armstrong



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NotCatholic
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 Posted: Wed Nov 28th, 2007 08:41 pm

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It's good to hear from you NotCatholic!

Thank you

 



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The attitude that nature is chaotic and that the artist puts order into it is a very absurd point of view, I think. All that we can hope for is to put some order into ourselves-Willem De Kooning

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NotCatholic
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 Posted: Wed Nov 28th, 2007 08:59 pm

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We will certainly rejoice if you choose to become Orthodox rather than no Christian at all. Praise God! You would be a Christian in an apostolic Church that possesses valid sacraments, even though you were, well . . . not Catholic! ;)
 


Its been a long jouney well its seems that way. I have made alot of mistakes in my life (don't tell anyone lol) I'm just glad that know matter what I do that God loves me and will forgive me. I'm going to keep on praying I know God will lead me too the truth.






God bless!



____________________
The attitude that nature is chaotic and that the artist puts order into it is a very absurd point of view, I think. All that we can hope for is to put some order into ourselves-Willem De Kooning

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NotCatholic
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Joined: Thu Jul 5th, 2007
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Posts: 79
First Name: NotCatholic
Gender: Male
Faith History: Pentecostal,none
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 Posted: Wed Nov 28th, 2007 11:04 pm

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