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DrDave
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Mildura, Australia |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle - Lapsed - Renewed Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2007 12:03 am |
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It's that time of year friends & relatives belonging to various Christian denominations have started lamenting the lack of the "Reason for the Season" and proclaiming how we should "Put the Christ back into Christmas".
Not really wanting to argue the point they're making but rather pushing it a bit further I have begun responding "but the Christ without the Mass is just 'Christ' not 'Christmas'"
What do y'all think
Regards Dave
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NB: 'DrDave' is a nickname from college not and indication of academic achievement.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2007 12:52 am |
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DrDave wrote: What do y'all think
I like it. I think I'll start answering, "and I put the mass in Christmas, too!"
That would make a pretty neat bumper sticker:
Keep Mass In Your ChristMas!
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Ali
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| Location: | Ohio USA |
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| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2007 07:28 am |
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I think you are a trouble maker 
Ali
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BodRod
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
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| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2007 10:25 am |
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I'm going to attend mid-night Christ's Mass. The friends, the music, the homily, the adoration, the receiving, the serving, more music more friends, it will be GREAT attending Christ's Mass. 
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Dave Armstrong
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| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
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Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2007 07:14 pm |
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Sounds like a wonderful and justified "rabble-rousing" activity to me!
As the only time of year that finds Protestants wistfully gazing at statues of Mary (manger scenes), what better timing, huh?
I like to point out, too, how when Protestants remark, "why do you Catholics always have Jesus on the cross, when he is glorified in heaven?" we can come back with, "why do you have Jesus as a baby during Christmastime since he is glorified in heaven?"
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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BodRod
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| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2007 08:00 pm |
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Dave Armstrong wrote: I like to point out, too, how when Protestants remark, "why do you Catholics always have Jesus on the cross, when he is glorified in heaven?" we can come back with, "why do you have Jesus as a baby during Christmastime since he is glorified in heaven?"
That is a great come-back. I'll have to remember that one.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2007 08:30 pm |
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I think it is an original too! I'm sure someone else must have thought of that, but I did come up with it myself without seeing it somewhere else.
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2007 10:37 pm |
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Dave Armstrong wrote: "why do you Catholics always have Jesus on the cross, when he is glorified in heaven?"
My pastor says he answers that question by asking if they were saved by an empty cross.
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Prayerie Pal
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| Joined: | Sat Mar 24th, 2007 |
| Location: | Omaha, Nebraska USA |
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| First Name: | susie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian,Methodist, Charismatic Catholic, Pentecostal, Evangelical, and now Truly Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2007 10:58 pm |
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I like it. I think I'll start answering, "and I put the mass in Christmas, too!"
That would make a pretty neat bumper sticker:
Keep Mass In Your ChristMas!
AMEN Rick!
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God gave us memory so we could have roses in winter.
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Prayerie Pal
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Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2007 11:06 pm |
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I think you are a trouble maker
FUNNY stuff!
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God gave us memory so we could have roses in winter.
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lia
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| Joined: | Mon Dec 11th, 2006 |
| Location: | Quezon City, Philippines |
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| First Name: | lia | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2007 11:15 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: Dave Armstrong wrote: "why do you Catholics always have Jesus on the cross, when he is glorified in heaven?"
My pastor says he answers that question by asking if they were saved by an empty cross.
Seeing Jesus on the cross humbles me. "This is my God and yet He loved me so much he's on that cross instead of me." (It makes my heart ache and I want to cry at the enormity of this love!)
So why should there be an argument that Jesus be on the cross and Jesus now glorified in heaven? Every aspect and event of Jesus life is worth reading, studying, made to an art and reflecting on. Am I getting the idea that Protestants are making God INFLEXIBLE? It's either "this" or "that" but never "all of the above". Well, I'm thankful to God that they are not god  .
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Man can't b forced 2 accept the truth.He can b drawn toward the truth only by his own nature, that is, by his own freedom w/c commits him 2 search sincerely 4 truth & when he finds it, 2 adhere 2 it both in his conviction & his behavior.-- JP2
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Prayerie Pal
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| Location: | Omaha, Nebraska USA |
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| First Name: | susie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian,Methodist, Charismatic Catholic, Pentecostal, Evangelical, and now Truly Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Dec 7th, 2007 12:20 am |
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Yes, that's what some are apparently trying to do in many places and with their 'this or that' theology. They don't get the 'both' ' and' of Catholicism. I heard somewhere by someone that they're the "prose" while Catholicism is the poetry. It's sad, but try talking to some about Redemptive Suffering to some of them, and you'll get a deer-in-the-headlights look like you've never seen before. Mystery isn't something that many Protestants are comfortable with, or at least not the more independent or Evangelical. It can make some become rather non-flexible and quite rigid in their lives and it's rather annoying, but I keep praying for them. I have two Evangelical friends from our former Interdenom. "church" and I don't think they know what to "do with me" anymore. I keep writing them and inviting them to Mass every now and then. So far, no takers. No one has told me to stop sending them emails, so until I hear differently, I'll keep on sending. I used to be that blind, too, so I must be patient with them. I'd sometimes rather have an honest, civil debate than be ignored though.
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God gave us memory so we could have roses in winter.
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Free
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| Joined: | Wed Nov 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 372 |
| First Name: | Jane | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Gnostic, non-denominational, Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Dec 7th, 2007 09:10 am |
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The word "mystery" wasn't part of the vocabulary in the non-denominational church I belonged to. Back when I was a Presbyterian, the pastor had used the word during a Sunday school class discussion, and it troubled me. I spent time in the Scriptures proving to myself that the mystery was "solved." That Jesus Christ was the mystery and now that he had been revealed, the mystery was solved. That line of thinking is used by Paul in his letter to the Colossians at the end of the first chapter and the beginning of the second, yet I know now it's not the end of the story. My Protestant thinking said, "case closed" when I found those verses in Colossians, because as a Protestant I was looking for hard facts of proof, and not the whole context; I was looking for "yes and no" answers, like a lawyer quizzing somone on the witness stand, and not for inclusive explanations that desired to see real life in action.
Also, the word "suffering" is not part of the vocabulary in most non-denominational churches. Seeing Col. 1:24 troubled me, as did other verses about suffering, and those verses were never touched upon in sermons. I tried hard to believe and live the thinking of our non-denominational church that if a person has truly put their trust in the Lord, and has enough faith, they will never experience suffering in life. And if any kind of "circumstance" is thrown at you by the devil, then you rebuke it, renounce it, resist it and it will flee from you. I was very good at taking authority over "circumstances," yet I still had to admit in the quiet of my own heart that I was suffering and the Bible talked about suffering. Admitting that and beginning to try to learn what the Bible had to say about suffering was one of the stepping stones towards Catholicism for me.
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Prayerie Pal
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| Location: | Omaha, Nebraska USA |
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Posted: Fri Dec 7th, 2007 09:49 am |
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Excellent. Well said, Free! I can certainly relate to your assessment of some Evangelical thought influenced by strong anti-Catholic bias. Suffering now is key to living the "full and abundant" life we were always told we would be given, (which didn't contain suffering, as you wrote) by making Jesus the Lord and Savior of our lives. Jesus came to die so we wouldn't have to, and thus he suffered for us so "we wouldnt have to" was pretty much the belief system. I posted on my blog about the Crucifix while contemplating the meaning of suffering recently. What prompted me to was hearing how Francis Schaffer, one of the most highly regarded and eloquent Protestant thinkers of the 20th century, finally was "forced" to look at a crucifix while he lay dying in a Catholic hospital. He'd had contempt for the crucifix, and in his last days, it strangely became as he said, "my best friend." Powerful stuff! What a change of heart. How the agony and suffering of Christ, when we do actually look and see it, does make us realize that we too have to carry that cross of suffering if we're going to follow Christ and in the end, die and rise with Him.
To avoid, run from or try to expunge suffering from our lives is just a cheap, Americanized form of Christianity that got to be rather blah and nauseating to me...and how in one weekend, (Dec. 4-7 of 2004) while reading 3 Catholic books, the grace was poured into me like a rushing river and I wanted to really BE a Catholic! Then my husband and I returned to the Catholic Church after 26 years away and our 3rd anniversary of our return is, what do you know...tomorrow, the Feast of the Immaculate Conception! Yes, Our Blessed Mother had MUCH to do with our coming Home! I love her! If anyone struggles with Mary on this forum, please just realize how much Jesus loved you, that when he died and left this earth, he gave us His own Mom to be our Mom, too. To be ONE as He and the Father are one, and to have a Mom in heaven we can run to, who will take us always to her Son.
PAX,
susie
http://revertconvert.blogspot.com
Last edited on Fri Dec 7th, 2007 09:54 am by Prayerie Pal
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Esther
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Bronx, New York USA |
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Posted: Fri Dec 7th, 2007 11:03 am |
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Dave Armstrong wrote:
As the only time of year that finds Protestants wistfully gazing at statues of Mary (manger scenes), what better timing, huh?
It is the one time of year they are allowed to talk about Mary in more the passing without causing a uproar in their church. 
I remember several years ago my dad talking about Mary on Christmas, and how he admired her or something of that sort. I doubt in light of my conversion anything like that will be mentioned this Christmas.
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Prayerie Pal
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| Joined: | Sat Mar 24th, 2007 |
| Location: | Omaha, Nebraska USA |
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Posted: Fri Dec 7th, 2007 11:14 am |
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Yes, this is the only time of year that Protestants actually "worship idols" and "graven images" right in their own front yards.
I'm not being 'mean-spiritied' as they're so well-meaning folk, I used to be one of them. It's just that why in the Catholic churches are statues so despised as being idolotrous and yet, in Parables bookstores (Protestant chain) so many paintings and pictures of lions and lambs abound? As well as pictures of never-ending tables spread with the loveliest of dinnerware, that supposedly represents Heaven's banquet table, are so plentiful? I suspect they really do appreciate being 'human" and know we're human and need tangible things as a way to express our love for God and our faith, but yet, if those things are "Catholic" well.....that's what they must continue to protestant, and some rather rabidly, too, I might add. It's all so sad. IT comes down to simple symantics for the most part. Yes, this is the time of year to PUT MASS back in Christmas... Christ's Mass. God bless our seperated brethren. They are so close and yet sometimes so far away and they are so far away and yet so close. Catholic phobia is hard to cure, but once it is, watch out...then along comes Scott Hahn and Steve Ray and Alex Jones and a 'host' (no pun intended0 of others!
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God gave us memory so we could have roses in winter.
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Fri Dec 7th, 2007 03:42 pm |
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My pastor says he answers that question by asking if they were saved by an empty cross.
I like that one too!
Another friend of mine ended a mass mailing (no pun intended) with:
MARY CHRIST MASS
Of course, then we will be left open to the charge that we put Mary above Jesus . . . .SIGH. We can never please certain folks . . .
Last edited on Fri Dec 7th, 2007 03:43 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Prayerie Pal
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Posted: Fri Dec 7th, 2007 07:39 pm |
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MARY CHRIST MASS
Of course, then we will be left open to the charge that we put Mary above Jesus . . . .SIGH. We can never please certain folks . . .
You've got that right, Dave! That would be the "proof" for some that we elevate Mary above Jesus. It's so sad. How can anyone not love our Lord's mama? It's beyond me. Even as a somewhat anti-Catholic Church person, (not Catholics per se) I think deep down in my heart, I had some affection for her, as a girl, but being brought up Methodist, she was only mentioned during Christmas Eve and Day. I then later just sort of ignored her. My how that has changed for me! "All generations will call me blessed!" Mary declared, and I'm only so grateful to be in that number now, . . .finally!
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Dec 8th, 2007 01:25 am |
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Dave Armstrong wroteMARY CHRIST MASS
It actually works chronologically. First God gave us Mary, and she gave us the child Jesus Christ, and he gave us the mass.
Mary => Christ => Mass
Can't have one without the others!
So it's not we who are putting Mary first --- it was GOD who put Mary first!
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Prayerie Pal
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Posted: Sat Dec 8th, 2007 10:09 am |
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AMEN Rick! Good one! Logic does prevail. If only those with their prejudices against Our Mama would just pause and be clear-thinking. But that means having to admit they could be wrong and have been wrong. That's the proverbial kicker in the gut we all have to face about something or other. I know the founder of Methodism, John Wesley had a deep love for Mary, but you'd never know it these days in that denom. 
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God gave us memory so we could have roses in winter.
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Mon Dec 10th, 2007 03:25 pm |
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Everybody's gotta have a Jewish mother, right?
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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