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sewnsew
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 913 |
| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Anglican, Episcopal /Catholic-04/07/07 |
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Posted: Sun Dec 9th, 2007 05:46 pm |
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I was talking to our son last night after I got home from church- I reminded him that his Church Sabbatical had a time limit which was approaching fast. He agreed and said that for him the Episcopal church was out, the Anglican church was problematic but his problems with the Catholic church are what he refers to as pride- I asked him what he meant by that- had he been mouthing off to fellow students at school? no he hadn't what he meant was that he tied his identity tightly to the Anglo Catholic tradition which we have brought them up in and therefore to convert brought the question were we wrong all those years? Also while he has worked out his questions re: transubstantiation vs. Consubstantiation ( I can't even pronounce the two words let alone spell them) and the Imaculate conception he still has an issue with purgatory. I asked him really did it make a difference after he dies in this world if he spends 30 seconds, 10 years or whatever in purgatory, in other words was that question important enough to keep him out of the church or could he realize that it was a mystery and that he didn't necessarily have to know a specific answer to that one question as long as he didn't absolutely disagree with it?- Actually CAN he join the church as long as he is struggling with that question? Rick, Dave, David A, anyone?
In a completely spontaneous conversation with our daughter this morning she asked me if I had ever attended adoration ( I haven't yet but they do at school) when I said no she told me I should because it was a wonderful time to be in the church- for her the issues are tied up in responsibility towards the kids in their new church and friends, her loyalty to her brother is very strong- too strong no matter how we tried to coax her or downright bribe her she refused to learn to swim or ride a two wheeler until he had conquered both those feats ( huge feats on his part which required the intensive aid for physio,occupational and his riding (hippo therapy) therapists). I think that once he makes his decision she will join the church but she won't leave him behind even symbolically.
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BodRod
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 840 |
| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Sun Dec 9th, 2007 06:20 pm |
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| I did not understand nor accept everything when I was accepted into the Church. But my RCIA leader and my Pastor said that we did not need to know and understand everything before acceptance into the Church. We started our learning and understanding in RCIA and acceptance into the Church was just another step in our Christian growth and that the learning would go on for a lifetime. A person can not learn 2000 years of religion, tradition and Church history in nine months of RCIA. They were certainly correct about that.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Dec 9th, 2007 06:52 pm |
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kimdyuma wrote: Actually CAN he join the church as long as he is struggling with that question? Rick, Dave, David A, anyone?
Yes. Tell him a simple way to think of Purgatory is like going to a hotel and your room isn't ready yet. You know where you'll be spending the night, but you might have a little delay in the lobby while things are being made perfect for you.
The only difference is that Purgatory is making us perfect for God! And it is a state of unimaginable joy because the perfection is accomplished by purging with God's "Burning Love" (sounds of Elvis in the background).
We use words like suffering in reference to Purgatory but (in my opinion) the only real suffering is our own knowledge that our sins are keeping us separated from attendance at God's Throne. We will know of God's great love for us, and be filled with such a strong desire to be with God that being withheld from that Divine Presence will feel like suffering.
Eastern Catholics do not accept Purgatory in the same way Latin Catholics do, and yet they are fully Catholic. So yes, he can still join the Church as long as he does not absolutely reject the doctrine. (Actually, I've never met anyone, Catholic or Protestant, who does not accept the concept of Purgatory when explained without the use of the word itself.)
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David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2427 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Dec 9th, 2007 08:40 pm |
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Actually CAN he join the church as long as he is struggling with that question?
Yes, he can. I did. When I was taking instructions to become Catholic (a long time ago, before RCIA existed — I was 19 at the time) I was struggling with Mary, but the time was upon me to commit, and I decided to accept the authority of the Church, which I understood and believed was certain, that the questions I had about Mary would be answered. Eventually (about two years after I entered the Church) they were answered to the extent that I have never since doubted anything about Mary or the saints. So your son just needs to trust in God that if the Catholic Church is right about all the other stuff, it is right about this as well.
Regarding purgatory itself, what Rick says is true. (In fact it is corroborated by EWTN’s Fr. Benedict Groeschel, who has stated the same thing publicly on numerous occasions.) If you don’t use the word “purgatory,” it is very easy for most Protestants to accept it. With a simple explanation, they understand the concept and seldom have any trouble with it. It only becomes a problem if you you identify the concept with “purgatory,” which is a “forbidden word” in the Protestant universe.
David
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DrDave
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Mildura, Australia |
| Posts: | 278 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle - Lapsed - Renewed Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Dec 9th, 2007 09:49 pm |
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To look at it from another angle, I was a Catholic for about 32years before I worked out WHY the Church taught that polygamy was wrong. I read in Paul's letters as a child (10 or 11) that love is not jealous. From there I reasoned that If I had a wife, and if she truly loved me she should not have a problem with me taking another wife. It was over 20 years before I could see why the Church taught differently. (I read Humane Vitae).
The key point to my story is however not with regard to what I understood, but with regard to what I believed. I never took that second wife. Partly because my first wife would have strangled me in my sleep, but mostly because I believe that the Church under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit cannot teach error. Therefore while I spent 20+ years struggling with my understanding of what the Church teaches I didn't have trouble believing what the Church teaches.
Your son does not have to understand purgatory. So long as he is able to say in good conscience "I believe in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" he'll be just fine.
Regards Dave
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NB: 'DrDave' is a nickname from college not and indication of academic achievement.
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Intercessor
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| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Southcentral, Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 1446 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Dec 10th, 2007 12:04 am |
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This thread reminded me that the day before my confirmation, I received the following email from one of the priests:
Just as you witnessed happening at the Easter Vigil, tomorrow you will stand before the congregation and I will hold a book up to you, and you will make this profession of faith:
I believe and profess all that the holy Catholic Church believes, teaches, and proclaims to be revealed by God.
It was sobering, but I really appreciated it.Last edited on Mon Dec 10th, 2007 12:10 am by Intercessor
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Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials. . .the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Blessed is the man who perseveres in temptation, for when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life. . . NAB James 1:2-4,12
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Dec 10th, 2007 12:34 am |
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Intercessor wrote: This thread reminded me that the day before my confirmation, I received the following email from one of the priests:
Just as you witnessed happening at the Easter Vigil, tomorrow you will stand before the congregation and I will hold a book up to you, and you will make this profession of faith:
I believe and profess all that the holy Catholic Church believes, teaches, and proclaims to be revealed by God.
It was sobering, but I really appreciated it.
And it is worth noting that the word "understand" does not appear. There is much in the Catholic faith I do not understand, starting with the Trinity. But I believe it anyway. And that's what matters.
Someone told me once, "I'll never believe what I don't understand" so I asked him if he believed the light would come on when he flipped the switch and he said yes. So I asked him to explain how it happened and he couldn't. Nor could he explain the celestial mechanics behind the sunrise. The fact is we believe many, many things we don't understand. I am somewhat of a computer expert, and I understand binary mathmatics and the essential functions of the Internet, but I still have no idea how someone in England can read what I type in the U.S.! But I believe it.
Faith is a wonderful thing.
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 2227 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Mon Dec 10th, 2007 05:25 pm |
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Actually CAN he join the church as long as he is struggling with that question?
Absolutely. As explained by others (very well, IMO), as long as one accepts the authority of the Church and Catholic doctrine in its totality, it isn't required to absolutely understand and comprehend everything (as very few if any ever do, anyway: maybe St. Thomas Aquinas and some doctors of the Church do . . .).
I would say, on the other hand, that it is required not to dissent (which is a very different thing). The authority of the Church is supreme. This is what distinguishes Catholicism from Protestantism, because the latter rejects all infallibility other than biblical. If a person doesn't acknowledge and understand at least this difference, then IMO they should not yet become Catholic, because it would be dishonest and premature to do so.
I've written a ton of things, myself, about Bible and Church / authority issues. I can direct you to something more specific and particular if you like. Or check out these pages:
The Bible, Church, Tradition, & Canon
The Bible: Sola Scriptura
As for purgatory, even C.S. Lewis (a good Anglican his entire life) believed in that. He wrote:Of course I pray for the dead. At our age the majority of those we love best are dead. What sort of intercourse with God could I have if what I love best were unmentionable to Him? I believe in purgatory. Our souls demand purgatory, don't they? My favourite image on this matter comes from the dentist's chair. I hope that when the tooth of life is drawn, a voice will say, 'Rinse your mouth out with this.' This will be purgatory.
(Letters to Malcolm: Chiefly on Prayer)
Here are three shorter papers of mine on the topic that might be helpful:
A Fictional Dialogue on Purgatory
Short Exposition on Purgatory
Biblical Overview on Penance, Purgatory, and Indulgences
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Truthseeker
Member
| Joined: | Wed Oct 4th, 2006 |
| Location: | Costa Mesa, California USA |
| Posts: | 457 |
| First Name: | Laura | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | lapsed and returned CATHOLIC!!!!!! |
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Posted: Tue Dec 11th, 2007 01:32 pm |
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HI all-
My very first confession after returning, I confessed that I was a heretic, because I didn't actually belive in confession. Why did I do it, anyway? Because i had promised God to belong to His church, even if I didn't understand it.
I had promised God to belong to His church until I had proof that it was wrong (never happened), rather than wait for it to be proved right. Maybe you could encourage youe son to do the same. The more he gives himself to Christ's church (while he's waiting to see how it goes), the more he will gain understanding that will keep him there.
I'm glad your kids aren't super "anti". At least they are open.
Love, Laura
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Lord, please make my will your Will!
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sewnsew
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 913 |
| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Anglican, Episcopal /Catholic-04/07/07 |
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Posted: Tue Dec 11th, 2007 06:47 pm |
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Truthseeker wrote: HI all-
My very first confession after returning, I confessed that I was a heretic, because I didn't actually belive in confession. Why did I do it, anyway? Because i had promised God to belong to His church, even if I didn't understand it.
I had promised God to belong to His church until I had proof that it was wrong (never happened), rather than wait for it to be proved right. Maybe you could encourage your son to do the same. The more he gives himself to Christ's church (while he's waiting to see how it goes), the more he will gain understanding that will keep him there.
I'm glad your kids aren't super "anti". At least they are open.
Love, Laura
My kids aren't anti but my son because of his autism issues doesn't deal well with "fuzzy" language- nothing sets him off faster then telling him oh in about 20 minutes" or "around 5 minutes or so". He needs to have the details nailed down before he will commit- The one sentence: "I had promised God to belong to His church until I had proof that it was wrong (never happened), rather than wait for it to be proved right." might actually be the deal maker for him- since we just had a big fight about his English paper (teacher wanted more words he gave her close to a bullet style paper) I will wait till he is more disposed to talk calmly to me.
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