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kololam77 Banned

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Posted: Tue Dec 18th, 2007 04:17 pm |
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I just received the following information from a certified assistant pastoral counselor of a RCC in the U.S. In previous emails she mentioned the hierarchy of truths, which I believe part of her response may pertain to. Any comments re: validity would be appreciated. I found the comments to be greatly encouraging, but somewhat different than what I have been hearing around the forum. Here are the comments:
The pope is not considered infallible himself, but there are times when he makes statements, ex cathedra, which are held to be undisputed truth. In the best case scenario, he does this after consultation and prayer with the bishops of the world. The last dogmatic teaching issued was the Assumption of the Virgin Mary in the 1950's, before that it was the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.
The Church's teachings on contraception are not dogmatic. Although the magisterium certainly has a position on it, which we must humbly and critically consider, this is strongly disputed by many of the theologians of the day. It is the responsibility of the magisterium, the theologians, who often represent the future direction of our Catholic thought, and the faithful, who live out the realities taught, to contribute to the journey in faith toward the Truth (Jesus).
In the end, this is where we are going, right? To God, in Christ and with Him. Find Him where you will - he is everywhere, not just in the RC Church, although I believe it is the best expression of him available to us, but also in all of Creation. Since Vatican II, we have heard that the position that there is no salvation outside of the Church is too narrow for the Creator and the Truth.
____________________ There is no other name under heaven by which men can be saved other than the name of Jesus Christ.
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David W. Emery Network Helper
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Posted: Tue Dec 18th, 2007 06:07 pm |
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What this counselor has told you in the first paragraph is true. It is the Church that is infallible; the pope, as the visible head of the Church, merely participates in this infallibility. There have been only two dogmatic definitions from the pope on his own initiative (although in consultation with the bishops of the world, so it was not done in isolation). They are the Marian doctrines listed by the counselor. All other dogmas have been defined by ecumenical councils.
Regarding contraception, the counselor is correct in the fact that the Church has so far made no dogmatic statement. However, she has not properly conveyed another fact, which is that dogma is only the highest and most formal of the levels of doctrine; other levels are also infallible, although less specifically defined.
The immorality of deliberate artificial contraception has been set forth clearly by the ordinary magisterium, which in this case consists of centuries of traditional and universal belief supported by ancient documents as well as scholarship through the ages, plus recent papal teaching. From this point of view, the fact that the Church’s position has not been “set in stone” by making it a dogma is of little importance. Theologians per se do not have the authority to recognize the doctrine of the Church officially; this is the proper function of the bishops, not of scholars. The participation of the faithful in determining the content of Catholic doctrine is significant, but it is not a matter of “bottom up” dictation; rather it is a matter of faith and obedience to the will of God, just as the various forum members have discussed with you in your thread about authority and what you “have to believe.”
Ultimately, Matthew, you will have reconcile yourself to the fact that God, not you, is the one who determines the content of all reality and the relative importance of each part of it. Faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is not compatible with faith in idols. As the Lord states in Exodus 20:5–6, “You shall not bow down to them or serve them [idols]; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.” Note the similarity of this passage to Christ’s words: “If you love me, you will keep my commandments” (John 14:15).
So if you are, as the counselor says, going “to God, in Christ and with him,” you will have to find him where he is, not where you would like him to be. Yes, you may encounter vestiges of God in various places; in this I can agree with her statement. However, I must disagree with her assessment that “the position that there is no salvation outside of the Church is too narrow for the Creator and the Truth.” This is taking an either/or attitude where a both/and attitude is required.
We cannot say that truth is to be found in only one place in creation; but we also cannot say that the fulness of truth is to be found everywhere without distinction. The counselor does state that she believes the Catholic Church “is the best expression” of the truth, but this is a rather anemic, subjective way of stating the Catholic position. Subjectivism is not necessary; truth does exist in its fulness only in God, and God is one, not many. Truth is one because its creator is one. This is why we do not worship idols. Therefore, although vestiges of it may be found in many places, it can be found in its essence and in its fulness in only one place.
So is the counselor wrong? Not entirely, certainly not enough for me to say, “Don’t listen to her.” But she has presented our Catholic understanding in a rather weak light and gives the impression of eclecticism, which of its nature cannot be the singular truth of the one God. No doubt she is doing this so as not to offend you. This is unfortunate, because it does not get to the root of your problem. Sometimes — so I believe — God has to hit us over the head with a two by four before we can begin to understand and follow in the right and true way. Maybe that is what he is doing to you as you agonize your way through these difficulties.
This assessment is my personal belief. As best I can determine, it represents the official position of the Catholic Church. May our Lord guide us both in this quest of yours.
David
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DrDave Member

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Posted: Tue Dec 18th, 2007 06:19 pm |
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kololam77 wrote: The Church's teachings on contraception are not dogmatic. Although the magisterium certainly has a position on it, which we must humbly and critically consider, this is strongly disputed by many of the theologians of the day. It is the responsibility of the magisterium, the theologians, who often represent the future direction of our Catholic thought, and the faithful, who live out the realities taught, to contribute to the journey in faith toward the Truth (Jesus).
There are many, theologians and others, who since the days of Vatican II promote the idea of "legitimate dissent". The justification for which, when examined fully boils down to the juxtaposing of two paragraphs of Vatican II documents
LUMEN GENTIUM (DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH)
25. Among the principal duties of bishops the preaching of the Gospel occupies an eminent place.(39*) For bishops are preachers of the faith, who lead new disciples to Christ, and they are authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach to the people committed to them the faith they must believe and put into practice, and by the light of the Holy Spirit illustrate that faith. They bring forth from the treasury of Revelation new things and old,(164) making it bear fruit and vigilantly warding off any errors that threaten their flock.(165) Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.
Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they nevertheless proclaim Christ's doctrine infallibly whenever, even though dispersed through the world, but still maintaining the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter, and authentically teaching matters of faith and morals, they are in agreement on one position as definitively to be held.(40*) This is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecumenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church, whose definitions must be adhered to with the submission of faith.(41*)
Which teaches the "submission of faith" that others have spoken of to your related questions on the board. This is contrasted with...
DIGNITATIS HUMANAE (DECLARATION ON RELIGIOUS FREEDOM)
10. It is one of the major tenets of Catholic doctrine that man's response to God in faith must be free: no one therefore is to be forced to embrace the Christian faith against his own will.(8) This doctrine is contained in the word of God and it was constantly proclaimed by the Fathers of the Church.(7) The act of faith is of its very nature a free act. Man, redeemed by Christ the Savior and through Christ Jesus called to be God's adopted son,(9) cannot give his adherence to God revealing Himself unless, under the drawing of the Father,(10) he offers to God the reasonable and free submission of faith. It is therefore completely in accord with the nature of faith that in matters religious every manner of coercion on the part of men should be excluded. In consequence, the principle of religious freedom makes no small contribution to the creation of an environment in which men can without hindrance be invited to the Christian faith, embrace it of their own free will, and profess it effectively in their whole manner of life.
Which extoll the freedom of the conscience.
When contrasting these two ideas, submission, and freedom, dissenting theologians argue that since freedom of conscience is the Catholic ideal then it is permissible to refuse to submit if you are doing so in accordance with your conscience. In effect they create a hierarchy of truths in which conscience trumps Catholic teaching every time.
Is this legitimate? well taken at face value, just contrasting these two passages they do seem to have a legitimate point. The other way of viewing it is that if Catholic teaching trumps conscience then one either submits or follows their conscience out the door.
It is when we attempt to place these two passages in context that the proper understanding of them becomes clear. The first clue of course is in the titles of the documents themselves. The "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church" proposes that Catholics submit. The "Declaration on Religious Freedom" proposes that everyone follow their conscience. But further clues are found in the documents themselves specifically the Declaration of Religious Freedom
1. A sense of the dignity of the human person has been impressing itself more and more deeply on the consciousness of contemporary man,(1) and the demand is increasingly made that men should act on their own judgment, enjoying and making use of a responsible freedom, not driven by coercion but motivated by a sense of duty. The demand is likewise made that constitutional limits should be set to the powers of government, in order that there may be no encroachment on the rightful freedom of the person and of associations. This demand for freedom in human society chiefly regards the quest for the values proper to the human spirit. It regards, in the first place, the free exercise of religion in society. This Vatican Council takes careful note of these desires in the minds of men. It proposes to declare them to be greatly in accord with truth and justice. To this end, it searches into the sacred tradition and doctrine of the Church-the treasury out of which the Church continually brings forth new things that are in harmony with the things that are old.
First, the council professes its belief that God Himself has made known to mankind the way in which men are to serve Him, and thus be saved in Christ and come to blessedness. We believe that this one true religion subsists in the Catholic and Apostolic Church, to which the Lord Jesus committed the duty of spreading it abroad among all men. Thus He spoke to the Apostles: "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have enjoined upon you" (Matt. 28: 19-20). On their part, all men are bound to seek the truth, especially in what concerns God and His Church, and to embrace the truth they come to know, and to hold fast to it.
This Vatican Council likewise professes its belief that it is upon the human conscience that these obligations fall and exert their binding force. The truth cannot impose itself except by virtue of its own truth, as it makes its entrance into the mind at once quietly and with power.
Religious freedom, in turn, which men demand as necessary to fulfill their duty to worship God, has to do with immunity from coercion in civil society. Therefore it leaves untouched traditional Catholic doctrine on the moral duty of men and societies toward the true religion and toward the one Church of Christ.
I believe that last part "Therefore it leaves untouched ..." spells it out quite nicely.
So to answer your questions here and elsewhere. In practice there is no difference in the way Catholics are required to respond to either Doctrine or Dogma. The teachings on contraception contained in IMO eventually faces all potential convert (or reverts) and it is IMO the "make or break" one.
Regards Dave
____________________ NB: 'DrDave' is a nickname from college not and indication of academic achievement.
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

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Posted: Tue Dec 18th, 2007 06:20 pm |
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Hi Matthew,
I just received the following information from a certified assistant pastoral counselor of a RCC in the U.S. In previous emails she mentioned the hierarchy of truths, which I believe part of her response may pertain to. Any comments re: validity would be appreciated. I found the comments to be greatly encouraging, but somewhat different than what I have been hearing around the forum.
That's because they are erroneous. You shouldn't be encouraged by error. 
Here are the comments:
The pope is not considered infallible himself, but there are times when he makes statements, ex cathedra, which are held to be undisputed truth. In the best case scenario, he does this after consultation and prayer with the bishops of the world. The last dogmatic teaching issued was the Assumption of the Virgin Mary in the 1950's, before that it was the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.
This would require many thousands of words to unpack and analyze properly, but suffice it to say that things are not nearly that simple. There are many different levels of infallibility itself. Fr. William G. Most has commented on these different levels. There is no way to simplify this, due to the complexity of the subject matter in your question, so here it is:First level:A) Solemn definition. LG 25: No special formula of words is required in order to define. Wording should be something solemn, and should make clear that the teaching is definitive. Councils in the past often used the form: Si quis dixerit. . . anathema sit. That is: If someone shall say. . . . let him be anathema. But sometimes they used the formula for disciplinary matters, so that form alone does not prove. Further, they also could define in the capitula, the chapters. Thus Pius XII, in Divino afflante Spiritu (EB 538) spoke of such a passage of Vatican I (DS 3006 -- saying God is the author of Scripture) as a solemn definition . . .
B) Second level: LG (Lumen Gentium) 25:Although the individual bishops do not have the prerogative of infallibility, they can yet teach Christ's doctrine infallibly. This is true even when they are scattered around the world, provided that, while maintaining the bond of unity among themselves, and with the successor of Peter, they concur in one teaching as the one which must be definitively held. This means: (1) The day to day teaching of the Church throughout the world, when it gives things as definitively part of the faith, (2) If this can be done when scattered, all the more can it be done when assembled in Council. Thus Trent (DS 1520) after "strictly prohibiting anyone from hereafter believing or preaching or teaching differently than what is established and explained in the present decree," went on to give infallible teaching even in the capitula, outside the canons.
To know whether the Church intends to teach infallibly on this second level, we notice both the language -- no set form required - and the intention, which may be seen at times from the nature of the case, at times from the repetition of the doctrine on this second level.
C) Third Level: Pius XII, in Humani generis:
Nor must it be thought that the things contained in Encyclical Letters do not of themselves require assent on the plea that in them the Pontiffs do not exercise the supreme power of their Magisterium. For these things are taught with the ordinary Magisterium, about which it is also true to say, 'He who hears you, hears me.' [Lk 10. 16]. . . If the Supreme Pontiffs, in their acta expressly pass judgment on a matter debated until then, it is obvious to all that the matter, according to the mind and will of the same Pontiffs, cannot be considered any longer a question open for discussion among theologians. We notice: (1) These things are protected by the promise of Christ in Lk 10. 16, and so are infallible, for His promise cannot fail . . . (2) Not everything in Encyclicals, and similar documents, is on this level - this is true only when the Popes expressly pass judgment on a previously debated matter, (3) since the Church scattered throughout the world can make a teaching infallible without defining - as we saw on level 2 -then of course the Pope alone, who can speak for and reflect the faith of the whole Church, can do the same even in an Encyclical, under the conditions enumerated by Pius XII. Really, on any level, all that is required to make a thing infallible is that it be given definitively. When a Pope takes a stand on something debated in theology and publishes it in his Acta, that suffices. The fact that as Pius XII said it is removed from debate alone shows it is meant as definitive.
In this connection, we note that LG 12 says: The entire body of the faithful, anointed as they are by the Holy One, cannot err in matters of belief. This means: If the whole Church, both people and authorities, have ever believed (accepted as revealed) an item, then that cannot be in error, is infallible. Of course this applies to the more basic items, not to very technical matters of theological debate . . .
D) Level 4: LG 25:
Religious submission of mind and of will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff even when he is not defining, in such a way, namely, that the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to according to his manifested mind and will, which is clear either from the nature of the documents, or from the repeated presentation of the same doctrine, or from the manner of speaking. We note all the qualifications in the underlined part. The key is the intention of the Pope. He may be repeating existing definitive teaching from Ordinary Magisterium level - then it is infallible, as on level 2. He may be giving a decision on a previously debated point - as on level 3, then it falls under the promise of Christ in Lk 10. 16, and so is also infallible. Or it may be a still lesser intention - then we have a case like that envisioned in Canon 752 of the New Code of Canon Law:
Not indeed an assent of faith, but yet a religious submission of mind and will must be given to the teaching which either the Supreme Pontiff, or the College of Bishops [of course, with the Pope] pronounce on faith or on morals when they exercise the authentic Magisterium even if they do not intend to proclaim it by a definitive act. If they do not mean to make it definitive, then it does not come under the virtue of faith, or the promise of Christ, "He who hears you hears me." Rather, it is a matter of what the Canon and LG 25 call religious submission of mind and of will. What does this require? Definitely, it forbids public contradiction of the teaching. But it also requires something in the mind, as the wording indicates. This cannot be the absolute assent which faith calls for - for since this teaching is, by definition, not definitive, we gather that it is not absolutely finally certain . . .
If one should make a mistake by following the fourth level of Church teaching, when he comes before the Divine Judge, the Judge will not blame him, rather He will praise him. But if a person errs by breaking with the Church on the plea that he knew better - that will not be easily accepted.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/4LEVELS.TXT
Note how the assent of the faithful is required on all these levels. This is how the authority of Humanae Vitae operates. All Catholics are bound to obey its teachings that prohibit the use of artificial contraception, as a definite statement of finality from a pope.
The Church's teachings on contraception are not dogmatic.
This is untrue (well, if she means by "dogmatic" something like "binding" or "infallible"). The teachings are infallible in the ordinary magisterium. They are not "de fide" or "ex cathedra" (though some have argued that they are) but they are infallible and binding on Catholics.
Although the magisterium certainly has a position on it, which we must humbly and critically consider,
Nope. We must not only consider them but give assent to and obey them.
this is strongly disputed by many of the theologians of the day.
There are always dissenting liberals and modernists, in almost any Christian communion. The Catholic Church is abundantly "blessed" with them too! We are not led by theologians, however, but by popes and councils and bishops, and received tradition.
Since Vatican II, we have heard that the position that there is no salvation outside of the Church is too narrow for the Creator and the Truth.
That is nothing new. The Church fathers allowed for situations of people being saved and not being Catholic. St. Thomas Aquinas taught that. I provide all kinds of evidence for this in the following [LONG!] paper:
Dialogue on "Salvation Outside the Church" and Alleged Catholic Magisterial Contradictions (Particularly in the Middle Ages; With Emphasis on St. Thomas Aquinas's Views)
For shorter treatments, see:
The Catholic Church's View of Non-Catholic Christians (Karl Adam)
On Salvation Outside the Catholic Church (+ Discussion) (Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.)
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/12/brief-overview-of-vexed-no-salvation.html
We continue to teach that there is no salvation outside the Church, but it has to be understood that this doesn't require someone to be a formal member of the Church to be saved.
Last edited on Tue Dec 18th, 2007 06:26 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

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Posted: Tue Dec 18th, 2007 06:32 pm |
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The notion of religious conscience is also widely abused by dissidents present in the Church. The proper view is expressed by the Catechism. It stresses (#1785) that conscience must be "guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church." In #1792, the Catechism speaks disapprovingly of "erroneous judgment" for reasons of "a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church's authority and her teaching . . . "
Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J., writes in his Pocket Catholic Dictionary (New York: Doubleday Image, 1980, p. 89): An action is right or wrong because of objective principles to which the mind must subscribe, not because a person subjectively feels that way or because his will wants it that way . . . These principles are presupposed as known to the mind, either from the light of natural reason reflecting on the data of creation, or from divine faith responding to God's supernatural revelation. Conscience does not produce these principles; it accepts them. Nor does conscience pass judgment on the truths of reason and divine faith . . .
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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kololam77 Banned

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Posted: Tue Dec 18th, 2007 07:11 pm |
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So what does this all mean?
One can only have religious freedom of conscience as it relates to (and is subjected to) the infallible teaching of the RCC?
I have no problem with this - my issue is in - as a Protestant - understanding what I "must" in good conscience believe in order to be a RC in good, religious conscience - and what is open to question and debate in my mind and heart?
Its out of respect for the RCC that I ask these questions, not because I desire to follow God and truth on my own terms - I never even labored to do this as a Protestant. With that being said - can someone simply list how this works? I.e. - the ordinary magisterium, the pope and his infallibility, the ecumenical councils, etc. - what have they determined to be absolutely binding for Roman Catholics?
Finally - I believe the "other" Dave mentioned that the RCC is not guided by theologians and scholars - but rather bishops, councils, and tradition - but were not some of the earliest and greatest fathers of the church all of these things together? Re: not being guided by scholasticism I would have to disagree - so would even the Eastern Orthodox - since Augustine and Aquinas and their sometimes brilliant theological scholasticism helped shaped the dogma and doctrine of the RCC that we have today - that also created much of the current stress between east and west. The west - I would say - both Protestant and RC is heavily scholastic and theological reason and rationality oriented. Just ask the E.O. !
Getting back on track.......again - and this is mainly for the other Dave - my intentions are not to cling to my free Protestant beliefs while "sneaking" in the back door of the RC narthex - but rather to understand more responsibly what I did not when I was a younger Roman Catholic thereby being able to make a decision in good, religious conscience that I can go to the grave with. If the church says "I must" and to date "I cannot" - then I cannot to date move into (or back to) Rome. I trust this is now clearly understood.
From a Roman Catholic perspective, obeying and yielding to the will of God really means obeying and yielding to the RCC. Those on the forum (particularly the moderators) need to understand that I am not there yet, and as far as I am concerned I am following the will of God as I ask these questions with the hopes of getting answers that will help me make a Godly decision whether or not to return to Rome. Again.....I hope this is clear to the moderators - especially the other Dave. Thanks so much as always.
Peace in Jesus Christ.
Last edited on Tue Dec 18th, 2007 07:17 pm by kololam77
____________________ There is no other name under heaven by which men can be saved other than the name of Jesus Christ.
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

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Posted: Tue Dec 18th, 2007 07:36 pm |
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So what does this all mean?
That you should become a Catholic. JUST being a little humorous . . . . (see my last paragraph!).
One can only have religious freedom of conscience as it relates to (and is subjected to) the infallible teaching of the RCC?
It's a complex issue, but in a nutshell: the informed conscience is already in line with Catholic teaching, yes. Consciences aren't formed in a vacuum; they are influenced by what we learn. In basic ethical questions, the conscious has innate knowledge infused by God (murder, stealing, etc.) but for more complex matters the conscience must also be informed by some outside teaching. See my paper:
Conscience: The Catholic Church's (and Newman's) View
I have no problem with this - my issue is in - as a Protestant - understanding what I "must" in good conscience believe in order to be a RC in good, religious conscience - and what is open to question and debate in my mind and heart?
Not much. Most things have been pretty well established over 2000 years. All religions have dogmas and binding teachings. We just have a few more than most.
Its out of respect for the RCC that I ask these questions, not because I desire to follow God and truth on my own terms - I never even labored to do this as a Protestant. With that being said - can someone simply list how this works? I.e. - the ordinary magisterium, the pope and his infallibility, the ecumenical councils, etc. - what have they determined to be absolutely binding for Roman Catholics?
The Catechism should suffice. If you are truly interested in the exact definition of various Catholic beliefs and whether they are dogmas or not, I highly recommend Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, by Ludwig Ott:
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma
Finally - I believe the "other" Dave mentioned that the RCC is not guided by theologians and scholars - but rather bishops, councils, and tradition -
I guess I'm the "other" Dave, then. I go by Dave and David Emery goes by David. Lots of Daves / Davids around!
but were not some of the earliest and greatest fathers of the church all of these things together?
Indeed. A scholar who is also a bishop has teaching authority in the "magisterium" by virtue of being a bishop, not by virtue of being a scholar. The smarter and more informed the better, as long as the person remains a faithful Catholic. But of course there are liberal bishops, too. That's why bishops only have "dogmatic authority" when they agree with each other in an ecumenical council in agreement with the pope.
Re: not being guided by scholasticism I would have to disagree - so would even the Eastern Orthodox - since Augustine and Aquinas and their sometimes brilliant theological scholasticism helped shaped the dogma and doctrine of the RCC that we have today - that also created much of the current stress between east and west. The west - I would say - both Protestant and RC is heavily scholastic and theological reason and rationality oriented. Just ask the E.O. !
The comment was not meant to run down scholarship (at all: I'm regarded as a "rational" sort of guy myself), but only to note that scholars are not the magisterial authorities in the Church: bishops are. They indeed help form theological opinion, though. Aquinas was a special case, as probably the preeminent Catholic theologian of all time. But his reasoning has had dogmatic force only insofar as accepted by the bishops and councils and popes. He was wrong, for example, on the Immaculate Conception, as later defined.
Augustine was a bishop, so no problem there. But he has been deemed as wrong, too, by the Church, on questions such as fine points of predestination.
Getting back on track.......again - and this is mainly for the other Dave - my intentions are not to cling to my free Protestant beliefs while "sneaking" in the back door of the RC narthex - but rather to understand more responsibly what I did not when I was a younger Roman Catholic thereby being able to make a decision in good, religious conscience that I can go to the grave with. If the church says "I must" and to date "I cannot" - then I cannot to date move into (or back to) Rome. I trust this is now clearly understood.
That is true. I would never urge someone to move faster than their reasoning and beliefs in good faith at the present time allow them to. Take your time, be convinced and persuaded and led by the Holy Spirit. If God is urging you to become a Catholic, then you'll have to submit to the teachings of the Catholic Church.
From a Roman Catholic perspective, obeying and yielding to the will of God really means obeying and yielding to the RCC. Those on the forum (particularly the moderators) need to understand that I am not there yet, and as far as I am concerned I am following the will of God as I ask these questions with the hopes of getting answers that will help me make a Godly decision whether or not to return to Rome. Again.....I hope this is clear to the moderators - especially the other Dave. Thanks so much as always.
I understand it and I think it is a helpful process. I and I'm sure many others here, went through the same process of working through the issues openly and honestly. That's why we're here (both the moderators and members): to help you through it. We don't force or coerce anyone to become Catholic, but we're here to aid (if asked to do so) in the process of conversion or possible conversion, and (to the best of our ability) to answer questions that come up therein.
NOTE: Edited to shorten link
Last edited on Tue Dec 18th, 2007 11:30 pm by
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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DrDave Member

| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Mildura, Australia |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle - Lapsed - Renewed Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Dec 18th, 2007 07:49 pm |
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kololam77 wrote: So what does this all mean?
One can only have religious freedom of conscience as it relates to (and is subjected to) the infallible teaching of the RCC?
One's conscience is free to choose to be subject to the teachings of Christ and His Church
kololam77 wrote: I have no problem with this - my issue is in - as a Protestant - understanding what I "must" in good conscience believe in order to be a RC in good, religious conscience - and what is open to question and debate in my mind and heart?
Its out of respect for the RCC that I ask these questions, not because I desire to follow God and truth on my own terms - I never even labored to do this as a Protestant. With that being said - can someone simply list how this works? I.e. - the ordinary magisterium, the pope and his infallibility, the ecumenical councils, etc. - what have they determined to be absolutely binding for Roman Catholics?
The reality of living this out is simpler than it might appear. If one can make the assent of mind and will that the Doctrine of the Church is authoritative then one lives in accordance with that dictate. This is not a matter of getting a checklist and checking that every belief on every subject is in accordance with what the church teaches, but rather a state of mind wherein the person does what they believe to be right and what the believe to be the teaching of the church. Which are in this mind set the same thing. If one comes to realize that there is a difference between what they hold and what the church teaches then they go with the church.
As an example, I had been told (by several priests) that contraception was 'allowed' by Vatican II. I believed what they told me and lived in accordance with what I believed. Objectively I was guilty of grave sin, but subjectively I believed I was acting "in good faith". When I read Humanae Vitae I became convinced that I had been misled and changed my practice accordingly.
kololam77 wrote:
Finally - I believe the "other" Dave mentioned that the RCC is not guided by theologians and scholars - but rather bishops, councils, and tradition - but were not some of the earliest and greatest fathers of the church all of these things together? Re: not being guided by scholasticism I would have to disagree - so would even the Eastern Orthodox - since Augustine and Aquinas and their sometimes brilliant theological scholasticism helped shaped the dogma and doctrine of the RCC that we have today - that also created much of the current stress between east and west. The west - I would say - both Protestant and RC is heavily scholastic and theological reason and rationality oriented. Just ask the E.O. !
I think the point is that the theologians and scholars cannot define Dogma that is a role reserved to the Pope and the Bishops in union with him. While sometimes these are the same people. (B16 is regarded by many as a great theologian) It was to the "office" of peter, and the "office" of the twelve that Jesus made his pledges "To lead you into all truth" and "I have prayed that your faith will not fail"
kololam77 wrote: Getting back on track.......again - and this is mainly for the other Dave - my intentions are not to cling to my free Protestant beliefs while "sneaking" in the back door of the RC narthex - but rather to understand more responsibly what I did not when I was a younger Roman Catholic thereby being able to make a decision in good, religious conscience that I can go to the grave with. If the church says "I must" and to date "I cannot" - then I cannot to date move into (or back to) Rome. I trust this is now clearly understood.
From a Roman Catholic perspective, obeying and yielding to the will of God really means obeying and yielding to the RCC. Those on the forum (particularly the moderators) need to understand that I am not there yet, and as far as I am concerned I am following the will of God as I ask these questions with the hopes of getting answers that will help me make a Godly decision whether or not to return to Rome. Again.....I hope this is clear to the moderators - especially the other Dave. Thanks so much as always.
This in my opinion is a better position to be in than those dissenting theologians I mentioned in my previous post, while one may argue that they have the grace of the sacraments available to them, they run the risk of sacrilege by their views. Your position is at least theologically consistent.
Regards Dave
____________________ NB: 'DrDave' is a nickname from college not and indication of academic achievement.
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kololam77 Banned

| Joined: | Tue Aug 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Berlin, Germany |
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| First Name: | Matthew | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | catholic, nothing, charismatic evangelical, conservative lutheran, conservative evangelical - moving ... |
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Posted: Tue Dec 18th, 2007 08:02 pm |
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That's EXACTLY what I am trying to be Dr. Dave - consistent, honest, open, and following my conscience as God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit leads.
Thanks so much for noticing. I trust God has noticed as well !
Peace to you in Jesus Christ from Berlin, Deutschland.
____________________ There is no other name under heaven by which men can be saved other than the name of Jesus Christ.
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David W. Emery Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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Posted: Tue Dec 18th, 2007 08:06 pm |
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My intentions are not to cling to my free Protestant beliefs while "sneaking" in the back door of the RC narthex - but rather to understand more responsibly what I did not when I was a younger Roman Catholic thereby being able to make a decision in good, religious conscience that I can go to the grave with. If the church says "I must" and to date "I cannot" - then I cannot to date move into (or back to) Rome. I trust this is now clearly understood.
This is what we want to hear. It places you on sound footing and allows us to see you as a true seeker of God’s will. It’s OK that you are “not there yet.” Everybody has to start from that position. I did, many years ago, and I am allowing you the same privilege. But reasonably you should not remain there if your true home is elsewhere. Agreed?
You see me laying out the general principles of truth in order to provide a path to that home. On the other hand, Dave, my namesake, has been criticizing the counselor’s words more in detail than I did. This is his function, and I think he has done well. We both think she has done you little good.
From a Roman Catholic perspective, obeying and yielding to the will of God really means obeying and yielding to the RCC.
If we view the Church as the body of Christ, this would seem to follow. However, as I mentioned, we recognize that there is an obedience to God and his commandments that is experientially prior to that which resides in the Church. And we are inviting you to investigate this realm before you proceed towards the Catholic Church. In other words, we believe that some truth can be found outside the confines of the institutional Church, and that a person beginning on the outside can make use of that truth as a lamp to his feet and a guide to his path.
To make things easier for you in distinguishing between me and Dave Armstrong, you can call me David and him Dave. And DrDave, well, maybe you can call him Dr. Dave. 
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