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Dave Armstrong
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Fri Dec 21st, 2007 03:37 pm |
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What gift can I give to the newborn King?
What can I give?
What can I bring?
What is a gift that is fit for a King?
I'll give my life.
Not just a part.
I'll give my all to Him.
I'LL GIVE MY HEART.
Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights . . .
James 1:17 (RSV)
What's that smell?
Jamie Kirchner
from St. Joseph E-Letter, 12-18-07 (my home parish)
A couple of years ago, your tactless editor was helping some small children set up the creche scene by one of our side altars. As we were finishing, and the children were surveying their work, I asked them if they could imagine how the Lord's birthplace smelled. The kids said it smelled "like Bethlehem". True enough. I didn't pursue it any further.
In our current sanitized lifestyle, it's hard for most people to envision realistically the actual conditions in which the Messiah was born. To say He was born in humble circumstances is an extreme understatement! People tend to imagine that Mary and Joseph, unable to find a hotel room, just went back to nature, and that Jesus was born in a cute little shack amidst twinkling lights, friendly animal characters, and the fresh aroma of pine.
But Jesus was born in a stable! Stables stink like animal urine and excrement even after they've been cleaned. There are disease-carrying insects and mice all around. Christ was lain in an open feeding trough that animals ate from and slobbered into multiple times daily (although we might assume that clean straw had been put there for Him). These were outrageous conditions for any child to be born in, let alone the Savior of humanity.
Next time you visit a livestock farm, or wander through the animal exhibits at the state fair, look around, take a whiff, and think of the astounding way that our Lord humbled himself. And you might mention it to your kids or grandkids.
Wishing you a Joyous, Merry Christmas and a Blessed New Year
Dave & Judy Armstrong & Family
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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tedjenczewski
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Posted: Sat Dec 22nd, 2007 08:42 pm |
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| Merry Xmas Dave. I am reading Chapter 2 of "A Biblical defense of Catholicism" and find it the clearest teaching on the subjects of faith, works, justification, sanctification etc. that I have seen. I recommend it to all Catholics who wonder how to answer our protestant brothers when they ask, "Do you believe God's Word in Holy Scripture"? Thanx for writing it. God bless you and your family.
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"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 2227 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Sat Dec 22nd, 2007 11:56 pm |
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Hi Ted,
Glad you like it. Thanks for your very kind words and merry Christmas to you and yours!
Dave
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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EMarshallBuckles
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 19th, 2007 |
| Location: | Rockville (Near Richmond), Virginia USA |
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| First Name: | Marshall | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Christian Church,Episcopal Church,Baptist denomination,learning about RCC |
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Posted: Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 02:01 am |
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| That's a wonderful Christmas card, Dave! Thank you for all that you so ably do in these forums and elsewhere for our Lord Jesus Christ! I pray that God will richly bless you and your family at Christmas and throughout the new year! -Marshall
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Intercessor
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Posted: Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 02:11 am |
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Thanks for the card, Dave.
Will you have to put bicycles together this Christmas Eve?
____________________
Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials. . .the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Blessed is the man who perseveres in temptation, for when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life. . . NAB James 1:2-4,12
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Tina in Ashburn
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Posted: Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 08:57 am |
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Am I the only one that thinks your card is funny? "whats that smell"?? As I scrolled to the picture, the overpowering smell actually came up in my brain. I grew up in the country and am familiar with barnyard scents - horses, cows, chickens, pigs... .
Do I need a shovelful of manure to get my front yard creche scene right?
Thanks Dave, and Merry Christmas to you and your family too.
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Tina
Arlington Diocese
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 01:13 pm |
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Thank you for your Christmas greetings David. And Merry Christmas to all the Moderators.
Yes, I'm back. I don't really like forums because so many of them are more argumentative rather than enlightening. But this forum seems to be more loving in it's content than most, even more than Catholic Answers forum.
I'm back because I'm still searching. I think I've worked my way through most of the doctrines and have found much I agree with. I still stumble over issues of what appears to us Protestants as heavy emphasis on legalism. Maybe that's not the proper term. For instance, the other day I was reading a book by Eugene Peterson, a Protestant famous called The Jesus Way. One of the things he pointed out was a problem I have with the Catholic church. He mentions how the "Jesus Way" is one of servitude. As Jesus came as a servant, we too must live as a servant in his way. He suffered, we suffer. He bore our sufferings, we bear with him the sufferings of others. No problem. Catholics and Protestants agree alike on this issue. The Christian life is a life of being a servant, a loving, obedient, giving servant.
But we so often teach this by moving the emphasis from being to doing.
Allow me to explain. The church often takes its eyes off the subject or object and focuses on teaching the world what is wrong. Teaching and making people do what is right. (90 percent of Protestants do this as well) Now that has to be done, but when it becomes the be all and end all then we have taken our focus off the person who makes it all possible. (I'm wording this so badly, I know.)
Forgive my long post. I see the Pope in magisterial vestments and he seems so regal and untouchable. He is elevated to a regal position. Also the Cardinals and most Bishops are not presented as servants, but as a regal untouchable big shot that everyone must bow to.
Pastoral Priests, I think, are more closer to the figure of a servant as they give their lives to serving sacrificially to their congregations. They are poor, celebates and everything they do smacks of servitude. Which I think is proper.
Jesus broke the idea of pomp when he set the example of a humble servant. He assigned Peter as a bishop. I agree Peter went on to pass on that responsibility. But was it to elevate the Bishops to a position of pomp, or were they assigned to be servants?
I wish I could put it more succinctly, but I figure you Dave and others, could answer this better than anyone else.
Thank you.
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Tina in Ashburn
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Posted: Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 03:26 pm |
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Everybody's probably busy - I'll make a stab at an answer for ya.
The clergy is due honor not because they are men, but because of the Ordained Office they hold. They act In Persona Christi, in the Person of Christ. Therefore honor that is seen materially is the spiritual representation of the honor due to God.
As you probably know, when a priest, bishop, cardinal or the Pope speak the words of consecration, he says not "This is Jesus body", but "This is MY Body". And when he speaks the words of forgiveness in confession, he says not "Jesus forgives you" but "I absolve you". When the Pope directs the Church, he speaks as Peter, empowered by Christ. Therefore the material honor you see, could be misconstrued as worldly honor - but its significance is to honor the office which these men hold.
In the old days, the Pope when he was carried through the crowd on his chair, the fancy chair was actually a "potty" chair. This was to remind him, and all of us, that although he held the Office of Pope, he was still a man in every sense. Don't know if this is still done.
But if this is not explained all the time, most would not understand this, just as the words of the Mass might seem just like words until you understand that it is prayer and full of significance and holy action.
God Bless!
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Tina
Arlington Diocese
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 03:40 pm |
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Hi, Rich. It’s been a while, to be sure, but no one could forget those sunglasses!
Pomp, you say, and self-importance. A lot of Protestants see it that way. But what is really happening is that they are dressing up to honor the King of Glory — the one really important Person among us. If you check into the lifestyle of bishops, you will find that most of them live very simply. The pope, for instance, has an apartment, not a palace, and it’s not even his, but belongs to the Vatican City State. The clothes he wears are also not his. They are ceremonial vestments for the Masses and other events at which he is called upon to officiate, indicating, as I said, that he is in the presence of the One who is greater than all.
There was a time, yes, when popes were also monarchs. This was originally forced upon them by the breakup of the former Roman empire, but as time went on this role became essentially meaningless in comparison to the office of Servant of the Servants of God. Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, some of the popes actually did what Protestants charge: they translated these responsibilities into self-importance. But this is an abuse, and once the papal monarchy was disbanded, the papacy has had no further temptation.
The Vatican City State, for instance, exists not because the Church needs to preserve the days of old when popes were temporal rulers, but to protect the Church needs to be protected from interference from secular authorities. This has been a particularly insistent problem from the beginning. Whether we are speaking of official state persecution, which existed in the first century and continues to exist today, two thousand years later, or of autocratic government officials, such as meddling kings and (nowadays) senators who want to force the Church to compromise its stand on life issues, it is an issue that is not going to go away.
Glad to see you back. Drop by more often and get to know our new members, some of which are right where you are on your journey.
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 03:57 pm |
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rbo4u2 wrote: I see the Pope in magisterial vestments and he seems so regal and untouchable. He is elevated to a regal position. Also the Cardinals and most Bishops are not presented as servants, but as a regal untouchable big shot that everyone must bow to.
Welcome back, Rich. We're glad to have you with us.
Jesus came both as King and Sacrifice. His entire life is a dichotomy. So is the Church.
The pope is the Prime Minister of the Kingdom of God on earth, the Pilgrim Church together on a journey to salvation. When we look at the pope in his vestments, we are seeing not a man but a position. The pope represents Christ on earth. We do not worship him, we do not bow to him. But we do indeed honor and kneel before the position he holds.
The same is true of bishops as the successors to the apostles. At one time, it was customary to kneel before a bishop and kiss his ring. That has largely fallen out of favor in the United States. The bishop's ring, placed on his finger during his consecration, is the sign of unbroken apostolic succession. Each bishop's ring is unique (as is the pope's), and each bishop's ring is buried with him or destroyed. (The pope's ring is destroyed immediately upon his deah.)
Now, what about the people who hold those offices? I certainly won't defend all of them, for there have been many who have taken advantages of their positions. But we can look to Pope Paul VI who abandoned the traditional crown and throne, and JOhn Paul II who abandoned many of the traditional titles given to the pope in favor of what he considered his primary role "Servant of the servants of God". The pope has the benefit of what Teddy Roosevelt called "the bully pulpit" to tell the world when it has lost track of the goal. It is his position as pope that makes his words heard. Because he is pope, heads of state from all over the world travel to Rome, often to be admonished by him for failing to provide for the least of God's people.
When Queen Elizabeth dies, she will be one of the richest women in the world. When Pope John Paul II died, he left behind only a few personal belongings.
My own bishop, Sam Jacobs, was one of the first to volunteer when our community was flooded with the victims of Hurricane Katrina, before he was himself forced to leave after Hurricane Rita so that the Church might remain in operation in our area. He was on the ground and in the shelters, anointing the sick, counseling the homeless, feeding the hungry. And the parishes in our diocese responded to his example.
So yes, we honor the Holy Father as the Vicar of Christ on earth. We honor our bishops as the successors of the apostles. We yield to their authority. But we also look to them for examples of how to serve, to carry out the gospel message. And when they fail, we criticize them.
Don't confuse what you see on television with the real work for justice the Church does every day. Read the documents issued from the Vatican. Read the addresses the pope gives to foreign dignitaries. Look at the charitable activies of agencies like Catholic Relief Services. Look at the documents drawn up by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. Read the pastoral letters issued by local bishop's conferences. It's all available on the Internet. Don't judge their lives by what they do for an hour every few months. Find out what they do the rest of the time.
You might just be surprised.
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Mon Dec 24th, 2007 12:12 am |
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Thank you Dave, Rick, Tina, Cindy for your kind and instructive words. By the way Cindy, I love Catholic Answers and all the folk in San Diego. That's my home town. I met Karl Keating at Catholic Answers last January and found him to be a warm and kind man.
Back to the subject. I'm aware of all the 4 of you have said. I've read those fine defenses in so many books. Maybe if I can be more specific it will help identify one of my issues. (yes, there are a few)
Jesus left his throne of glory to become a man. That's true love and humility.
He was born in a stable, not a mansion like King Herod.
His parents were poor humble people, not princes or of the aristocracy.
The Jews were expecting a Messiah coming in pomp and pagentry.
God turned all common expectations on their heads and came in humilty and in the most unexpected fashion. His life was spent in lowly service. He avoided anything to elevate himself. He refused to be held in esteem higher than his servanthood. He didn't wear the finery of the elegant but the simple robe of a rabbi. And he died the death of the lowest of humanity.
And he instructed us to live like him. We are to be servants to each other, not lording it over one another. We are to love others as we love ourselves. He provides the grace to do so, because in our poverty, we can't do it in our strength.
I think both of us, Protestants and Catholics, must wrestle with this issue. Maybe even more us than you because, except for a small percentage we ignore the poor and helpless so that our nice churches can be acceptable to the "nice" people.
Your words are well spoken and I expect are in the most part true. But perception is a major issue. What we see is pomp and form over substance.
While that is most likely an incorrect perception, it still is a major one for many of us. I personally am very sensitive on this issue as I see myself as often prejudicial, hateful and unkind to those who aren't in my status level.
I haven't address all your statements because I'm not sure it's necessary.
We come from vastly two different worlds. And yet, I think we wrestle with the same issues.
Thank you for your welcome back. I'll try and stick around longer. I think I have A.D.D and lose interest sometimes too easily. Ha Ha.
God bless all of you. You are truly brothers and sisters in Christ. Even if I'm only a "step brother"
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Mon Dec 24th, 2007 01:44 am |
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rbo4u2 wrote:Your words are well spoken and I expect are in the most part true. But perception is a major issue. What we see is pomp and form over substance. While that is most likely an incorrect perception, it still is a major one for many of us.
True. It seems to depend on which pair of glasses one is wearing. Witness your rabbit avatar; he is certainly making a spectacle of himself. So I know you are aware of the situation.
There are clergy who have not lived up to the Christian ideal. They exist in every religious body. There are also the saints we do not recognize in our midst. And again, they are not limited to a single entity.
As a matter of solidarity to your description of how difficult it is to reach a satisfactory attitude on the subject of poverty, it would interest you to know that I chose a particularly poor parish to belong to. There are some 5,000 members, but due to financial constraints, only 200 families are able to provide regular support to the parish. The parish bank account is in a permanent state of crisis. The only way anything concrete can be accomplished is through diocesan subsidy. Yet it suits me fine. This is the real Church.
I could go on to tell of my personal circumstances and those of the people around me, but I think the above speaks sufficiently well. My point is that I chose this life. I left a comfortable career and a BMW in the garage to do it, and I did it on principle.
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Dec 24th, 2007 02:21 am |
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rbo4u2 wrote: Back to the subject.
Actually, the subject in this thread is a "Cyber Christmas Card" from Dave & Judy. An extended discussion of the issues you present is a valid topic for discussion in this forum, but not in this thread. Whenever you're ready for a discussion, please hit the "New Topic" button and ask away!
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Mon Dec 24th, 2007 03:06 am |
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Will you have to put bicycles together this Christmas Eve?
Naw; my kids love video games. Easy to wrap and no assembly!
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Dec 24th, 2007 12:32 pm |
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Dave Armstrong wrote: Will you have to put bicycles together this Christmas Eve?
Naw; my kids love video games. Easy to wrap and no assembly!
You haven't experienced the Christmas joy of parenthood until you've assembled a swing set!
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Mon Dec 24th, 2007 12:42 pm |
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Doggone, I was just getting to enjoy this thread when I get my pinkies slapped. OK Rick, I bow to your authority and will either find a new thread or make one up. Man...these legalists pop up everywhere.
JUST KIDDING!!!!
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Intercessor
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Posted: Mon Dec 24th, 2007 12:50 pm |
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Rich, in your absence sweet little Kermie has grown very fierce indeed. Count your lucky stars all you got was a "Pinky-slap." He's been threatening adorable grandmothers like me with dungeons, alligators, and no chance at purgatory!
Uh, uh, I liked Dave's Christmas card. (back to topic)
That's a great pic to go with it, also.
Becky (adorable grandmother)
____________________
Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials. . .the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Blessed is the man who perseveres in temptation, for when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life. . . NAB James 1:2-4,12
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Dec 24th, 2007 12:55 pm |
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Intercessor wrote: no chance at purgatory!
You misunderstood. What I threatened was taking away your Tabasco sauce.
Last edited on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 12:58 pm by
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Intercessor
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Posted: Mon Dec 24th, 2007 01:07 pm |
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CajunRick wrote:
You misunderstood. What I threatened was taking away your Tabasco sauce.
 I'm trying to remember if there was ANYTHING my husband ate without Tabasco sauce. He was a California lad.
Here in Kentucky Tabasco sauce is important but not required on every food item.
That's OK, though. I try to learn my lessons and stay out of trouble. No alligators and no deprivations of condiments for me! I'm strictly a stay-on-topic gal! 
Yes, I really like that Christmas card.
____________________
Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials. . .the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Blessed is the man who perseveres in temptation, for when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life. . . NAB James 1:2-4,12
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Mon Dec 24th, 2007 04:02 pm |
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You haven't experienced the Christmas joy of parenthood until you've assembled a swing set!
I have assembled one of those, though I think it was a birthday gift, not Christmas.
My big feat of assembly was a huge backyard climber that we got used from somewhere. It was a big scrap of pieces of lumber, without instructions or anything. I figured it all out, and did it all by myself (sometimes pushing heavy beams in place with my back)! I was pretty proud of myself. I can do a good number of handyman and "fix-it" things, but I'm not one of those who can do anything in the house, so I'm pretty pleased when I can do something of that magnitude.
My biggest jobs in auto mechanics were replacing a water pump and a radiator. Probably nothing for a lot of guys who love to do that sort of thing, but for a bookworm / writer type o' guy, it was of some considerable significance, with a great sense of personal accomplishment!
Last edited on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 04:04 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Mon Dec 24th, 2007 04:08 pm |
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By the way, the pictures in the card are old ones. The boys' photo was from 8-10 years ago. The one on the left is now 14 and about 6-1 and taller than I am, and the one on the right (now 16) is about as tall as I am too. The one in the middle is 11 and beats me in chess about 35-40% of the time we play. My daughter is now six (and starting to learn chess too!). In this picture she was two.
I don't like to name my children on the Internet, and prefer to use older photographs for safety purposes. One can't be too careful these days. There are some atheists and anti-Catholics out there who truly despise me (make no bones about it; believe me, I am not speculating as to their feelings). It's part of what one goes through as an apologist, I reckon. So I try to exercise a bit of caution.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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