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Dave Armstrong
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nominal Methodist / evangelical non-denom / "Bapticostal" / Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 09:29 pm |
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Hi Rich,
That's an excellent overview of the history of this school of error. Thanks very much!
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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roxyorthodoxy
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Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 11:18 pm |
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Hi, Dave,
What or who has influenced you the most in your Journey Home....other than the obvious Holy Spirit?
This question came to me after scanning through some of your posts.
Roxy Orthodoxy
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MitchyMitch
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Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 11:59 pm |
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I think there is a very good and solid reason for Osteen's appeal. For so long, Protestantism's voice has been either the ultra-fundamentalists whose ideology borders on the worst aspects of phariseeism, and the charismatics who have a broad-base appeal to a largely uneducated base.
Osteen comes across as a fundamentalist is style and poise (speaks with authority, doesn't claim to heal, doesn't speak in tongues, etc.) But he has largely adopted the charismatic's relatively new approach to the prosperity message.
I once heard a great comaprison of two Great Communicators. Reagan made people feel great about what America could be. CLinton made people feel good about where they were presently.
I think Osteen is like the Bill Clinton of Christianity in communication style. The message is "you are allright, God made you, you are doing the best you can, sit back and expect God's blessings."
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Pax,
Mitch
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MichaelStEdmund
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 05:19 am |
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Scattered thoughts, written too late at night ...
As someone who spent his young adult years deeply in the "Word of Faith" movement, I remember that it seemed to speak to a lot of people because it seemed to take seriously the idea that God wanted to be involved in the mundane things of life. The movement preached about a God who cared for the sick and who cared whether your electric bill got paid or not. It also gave keys to people so that they wouldn't feel powerless about their lives anymore. You heard the words "Authority of the Believer" a lot in those days. You probably still do, though I'm out of the loop when it comes to that stuff these days.
Yes, it offered hurting, victimized people a sense of authority and control. If you prayed hard enough, believed enough, confessed enough, remained positive enough, you too could be a superhero walking the earth with a supernatural level of power that would allow you to have whatsoever you saith and never have a sick or needy day again in your life. It was like "The Power of Positive Thinking" on steroids. A slightly different audience is finding something similar in "The Secret" today.
It also reached out to people in a very non-religious way, and that was really the point. People generally found folks like Copeland arrogant, crude, rude, and insulting - and they either loved him or hated him because of that. When God spoke to Brother Copeland, he usually sounded as crude and rude as Copeland did. While Joel Osteen seems to be working the other end of the pole with his smooth ways and his big smile, he's still reaching out to people in a way that seems very non-religious.
It's true that Hagin and Copeland gave E.W. Kenyon's message a southwestern twang. I'm sure that Hagin plagiarized Kenyon endlessly, but it's the sort of thing a person with a grade school education might do without any ill intent.
What I think is interesting is that they were always "commanding" angels and "rebuking" demons, but if a Catholic talks to a saint we're weird. Uh huh.
____________________
"Faith seeking understanding" - St. Anselm of Canterbury.
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David W. Emery
Network Helper
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 12:19 pm |
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MichaelStEdmund wrote:What I think is interesting is that they were always "commanding" angels and "rebuking" demons, but if a Catholic talks to a saint we're weird. Uh huh.
There’s a fundamental difference in attitude that accounts for this. It is that the former is seeking to dominate these entities and demand submission even of God in the process, while the latter prefers to be submissive to God even in his encounters with spiritual beings. Therefore, it is the self-assertion and personal domination and control of others which is sought by the underculture, not a real relationship with a “higher power.” Supposedly this reduces suffering (an act of submission) and “frees” the person from slavery to those around him, allowing him to be self-sufficient. In reality, it works much the same as Satan’s “Non serviam — I will not serve.”
David
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Candlemass
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 12:40 pm |
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| Hank Henagraaff has two great books dealing w/these type of teachers/movements; "Christianity In Crisis" and "Counterfiet Revival", they deal with the fallout in people's lives as a direct result of listening to false teachers.
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"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 02:49 pm |
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MichaelStEdmund wrote:
As someone who spent his young adult years deeply in the "Word of Faith" movement, I remember that it seemed to speak to a lot of people because it seemed to take seriously the idea that God wanted to be involved in the mundane things of life. The movement preached about a God who cared for the sick and who cared whether your electric bill got paid or not.
Yes, it offered hurting, victimized people a sense of authority and control. If you prayed hard enough, believed enough, confessed enough, remained positive enough, you too could be a superhero walking the earth with a supernatural level of power that would allow you to have whatsoever you saith and never have a sick or needy day again in your life. It was like "The Power of Positive Thinking" on steroids. A slightly different audience is finding something similar in "The Secret" today.
I too was enamored with the Word-Faith movement back in the early '60's. E.W. Kenyon was one of my favorite writers. I quoted him everywhere I went and when I first ran across Kenneth Hagin, I absorbed his materials.
But because in my college years I had been pretty well grounded in the scriptures, I began too see the holes in their theology. And the more I studied the more I found problems. You stated they appealed to a lot of people by showing how God was interested in their mundane areas of life. That was the danger of the movement. They took a profound truth and twisted it so horribly that thousands, perhaps millions have be led down the primrose path. In all the years of study, I've seen very few documented stories where the multitudes experienced the health and wealth gospel in their lives. They more money they gave, the richer the preachers got. But the poor sucker who gave continued to languish in the same daily problems. It was a false hope.
I have a personal friend who was deeply involved in that movement as well as the old "authority" preachers like Bob Mumford, Derek Prince etc. He ministered with these guys regularly but then began to notice a familiar pattern. All these "big" guys would come and speak at a church, seminar, rally or major event in their limos etc. They sneak in at the last moment, make their grand entrance, give their message and immediately disappear, never to engage with the people. Their attitude was that they were too good to mingle with the masses. He became very disallusioned and finally left the who movement behind. His testimony of misused funds and gifts, dirty jokes about women...yes...by some of these very people many revere, appalled him. Today, he pastors a small struggling church but at least he has his integrity.
So, my impression is, yes, they gave hope, but it was a false hope based upon a false gospel. St. Paul has some pretty harsh words about those kind of people. They built an empire around a partial truth that primarily benefitted the Word of Faith leaders rather than the faithful.
I might add, I was so close to the movement, I had a good friend who is now a major pastor in the Word of Faith movement, Fred Price. I remember his humble roots. I know where he came from. I also know he has not told the entire truth in his biography regarding his roots. We were members of the same organization but he gives no indication of that organization. Not that it was a wrong place, but at least he could have given some credit where credit was due.
Rich
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Candlemass
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 03:04 pm |
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Looks like some of my times on LSD!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SgByE0pX1M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Mqkt7nHong&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQiK_hMVC2k&feature=related
Last edited on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 03:13 pm by Candlemass
____________________
"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 03:55 pm |
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You find similar descriptions of some of the early revivals in America that we know as the First and Second Great Awakenings. Much good came from these, but there were many excesses as well. Some can be equated with mass hypnotism, others demonic influence, and some just hysteria. That doesn't mean God will or can't work in those situations. But you'll find, in the most part, there were little long term results. Another interesting sidenote...there sure were a lot of babies born after these major movements. Hmmm, maybe that's not so bad. 
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Candlemass
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 04:14 pm |
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| I've also heard of the charismatic movement amomg Catholics, I'm just extremely gun shy of giving myself over to something like that, I've seen the madness in much of this.
____________________
"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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MichaelStEdmund
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 04:53 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote:
MichaelStEdmund wrote:What I think is interesting is that they were always "commanding" angels and "rebuking" demons, but if a Catholic talks to a saint we're weird. Uh huh.
There’s a fundamental difference in attitude that accounts for this. It is that the former is seeking to dominate these entities and demand submission even of God in the process, while the latter prefers to be submissive to God even in his encounters with spiritual beings. Therefore, it is the self-assertion and personal domination and control of others which is sought by the underculture, not a real relationship with a “higher power.” Supposedly this reduces suffering (an act of submission) and “frees” the person from slavery to those around him, allowing him to be self-sufficient. In reality, it works much the same as Satan’s “Non serviam — I will not serve.”
David
All absolutely true and horribly self-evident. Thanks David.
____________________
"Faith seeking understanding" - St. Anselm of Canterbury.
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 07:59 pm |
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Hi Rox,
What or who has influenced you the most in your Journey Home....other than the obvious Holy Spirit?
This question came to me after scanning through some of your posts.
The biggest single influence was Cardinal Newman; specifically his Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine. The second major thing was the issue of contraception. The third was a study of the 16th century Protestant Revolution from a Catholic perspective for a change (instead of the usual secular or Protestant perspectives).
I have several versions of my conversion online, of varying lengths and emphases (and some in audio format). Take your pick!:
28-minute Radio interview (9 September 1997) [see also a transcript of same]
My Odyssey From Evangelicalism to Catholicism [original manuscript version of what appeared in Surprised by Truth]
How Newman Convinced me of the Apostolicity of the Catholic Church [longest, most theologically technical version, emphasizing development of doctrine, and published in The Coming Home Journal and The Latin Mass magazine]
My Conversion Story in a Nutshell (+ Funny Baptism Trivia)
The Epistemology of My Conversion / My (Protestant) Letter to Karl Keating in 1990 / How I Became an Apologist
150 Reasons Why I am a Catholic (Revised)
More related stuff: see my Conversion and Converts page.
Last edited on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 08:08 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Darlene
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 08:26 pm |
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I have a personal friend who was deeply involved in that movement as well as the old "authority" preachers like Bob Mumford, Derek Prince etc. He ministered with these guys regularly but then began to notice a familiar pattern. All these "big" guys would come and speak at a church, seminar, rally or major event in their limos etc. They sneak in at the last moment, make their grand entrance, give their message and immediately disappear, never to engage with the people. Their attitude was that they were too good to mingle with the masses. He became very disallusioned and finally left the who movement behind. His testimony of misused funds and gifts, dirty jokes about women...yes...by some of these very people many revere, appalled him. Today, he pastors a small struggling church but at least he has his integrity.
Rich, I just watched a video of Benny Hinn yesterday and this describes him perfectly. His assistants scope out the audience and prevent people with real diseases from coming up to the stage. He has body guards accompany him wherever he goes. He lives in opulence that could be compared to the European monarchs. These faith/prosperity/wealth/health false teachers are described as pulpit pimps on a certain Christian website. They are to be avoided like the Plague.
HD
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Candlemass
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Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 05:54 pm |
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Ok, feel free to tear this up:
Today's Word from Joel and Victoria
The Truth of God’s Word is a precious treasure entrusted to us. It empowers us to overcome every obstacle. It’s important to keep this Truth in your heart and establish it in your life. How do you establish the Word in your life? When you make a habit of praying and reading God’s Word it becomes more and more alive to you. When you choose to obey it, you are guarding and keeping the Truth. For example, the Bible says that love covers an offense. When you choose to walk in love even when someone has offended you, you are guarding the Truth. When you choose God’s way, instead of the world’s way, you are guarding the truth. Society has so many different ideas of what is right and acceptable. We have to always choose God’s way. And when you choose God’s way, you get God’s results! God’s results include a blessed and happy life. Start today by asking the Lord to show you His Truth by the power of His Spirit. As you keep the precious Truth of God’s Word, you will be empowered to live the life of victory the Lord has in store for you!
A Prayer for Today
Heavenly Father, thank You for Your Truth which sets me free. I invite you to search my heart and mind today and lead me in Your ways. I bless You today. In Jesus’ Name. Amen.
____________________
"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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Kim M.
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Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 07:25 pm |
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In all the years of study, I've seen very few documented stories where the multitudes experienced the health and wealth gospel in their lives. They more money they gave, the richer the preachers got. But the poor sucker who gave continued to languish in the same daily problems. It was a false hope.
It's kind of like a Ponzi scheme. "Invest" in "God" (aka The Holy Slot Machine") and you're promised that you'll be blessed 100 fold or 1000 fold. All along, it's the preachers who are "being blessed" by the poor they dupe.
I was involved for the first 6 months of my walk with Christ in a Word of Faith church, only I didn't know it was teaching error until one day I was watching a show featuring Dave Hunt, who basically named every teacher I had been learning under as a false teacher!  The show was part of a series created from his book called The Seduction of Christianity.
I was thankful for the things I learned from Dave Hunt even though now I don't subscribe to his teachings either. But God used his video series to help me see these teachings for what they were. Wrong!
The scales fell off my eyes when at a church picnic I was sharing with a fellow church member that we had just had to put our dog to sleep. It was a very hard time for us. We loved our dog very much. Instead of offering sympathy or comforting words, he said to me, "Don't make a bad confession!"
Oh, thanks. :X
That was the fruit of those teachings being lived out right before my eyes. It was THE most self-centered bunch of hooey I'd ever heard. Thankfully, God took me away from it.
As far as Joel Osteen, I think he's a great motivational speaker and an encourager of good works. But he presents so little of Christ, I don't think he should be shepherding one of Christ's flocks. It seems he rarely points his flock to the True Shepherd.
____________________
"A joyful heart is the health of the body, but a depressed spirit dries up the bones." Proverbs 17:22
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Kim M.
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Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 07:28 pm |
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When you choose to walk in love even when someone has offended you, you are guarding the Truth.
This seems to be almost his mantra. I think I've heard this same thing nearly every time I've watched one of the handful of "sermons" he's preached. A good message, but, change the message once in awhile! 
____________________
"A joyful heart is the health of the body, but a depressed spirit dries up the bones." Proverbs 17:22
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Candlemass
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Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 08:00 pm |
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| I don't follow this guy, or all of his teachings, but I do get some good out of it, just not ready to lump him in w/all the other rank heretics.
____________________
"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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pam
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Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 08:05 pm |
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Kim M. wrote: The scales fell off my eyes when at a church picnic I was sharing with a fellow church member that we had just had to put our dog to sleep. It was a very hard time for us. We loved our dog very much. Instead of offering sympathy or comforting words, he said to me, "Don't make a bad confession!"
Kim, this is off-topic, but I wanted to thank you for using this example. We had to put our beloved little Yorkie to sleep last Monday, very unexpectedly, and it has been a painful week. The thoughts you expressed here have given me comfort. Thank you.
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 08:31 pm |
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I know this is off topic, but I know your hurt Pam. We lost 3 of our cats in a matter of three months, all on holiday periods. Thanksgiving, Christmas Day and New Years day. We were crushed. Within a week we replaced 2 of them with delightful fuzzy black cats that fill the void. So, avoiding sounding like Joel Osteen, we stand with you in love and know God will fill your void.
How's that for staying on topic?
Rich
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pam
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Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 08:42 pm |
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| Thank you, Rich.
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Candlemass
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Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 08:46 pm |
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| Sorry to hear that Pam, my mother had to put down her cat last summer, it was pretty tough on her. I hate when someone say, "well that's just part of life", no it's not, it's DEATH!
____________________
"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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Kim M.
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Posted: Wed Feb 27th, 2008 12:03 am |
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Kim, this is off-topic, but I wanted to thank you for using this example. We had to put our beloved little Yorkie to sleep last Monday, very unexpectedly, and it has been a painful week. The thoughts you expressed here have given me comfort. Thank you.
Pam, you have my sympathies. Pets are real members of the family. They leave an empty place when they die. And it's ten times harder to cope with when you have to have them put down, even though you know it's for their own good.
We got into keeping rats, yes rats, a couple of years ago. And they don't live long, a couple of years, maybe. They are like little dogs, I kid you not - sweet and friendly and love attention, especially the males. We have 3 boys (all brothers) now and they adore attention and love being held and talked to.
We've lost a total of 6 rats (all females) in these last couple of years and it was so hard every time. Many times we had to decide to put them down because their suffering lingered so.
So now we are trying boys and they are a joy!
Don't be afraid anyone (lol), but here's a pic of our boys (Oscar, Barney, and Jeremy):
Are they not the sweetest?? They like Daddy's old slippers. 
Pam, I recommend giving another needy dog a home so you can heal from your loss. There are so many dogs out there that are abandoned to animal shelters or who are needing to be placed elsewhere because their owners can't care for them anymore.
Craigslist.com is a good place to look. They have a never-ending parade of needy dogs being posted on their boards. I actually got our boy rats off of craigslist. A woman was giving them away (she had bred their parents), and it has been such a blessing to have found them.
Petfinder.com is another great place. Shelters use that site all the time, as do rescue groups.
Okay, I know I'm going on and on about this, but pets are special! God gave them such endearing qualities. We should enjoy them just as we enjoy everything else He has made.
I got us off track again, didn't I? heh heh 
Last edited on Wed Feb 27th, 2008 12:05 am by Kim M.
____________________
"A joyful heart is the health of the body, but a depressed spirit dries up the bones." Proverbs 17:22
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pam
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Posted: Wed Feb 27th, 2008 01:33 am |
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Thank you, everyone. Your comments meant a lot to me this afternoon. I can't imagine losing 3 dear pets in 3 months, Rich, and on the holidays too. I'm so sorry.
Mark, your response to that comment is exactly how I feel too. I hope your mom has a new little cat in her life now.
Oh, Kim, the rats!!! But they do look cute and cuddly.....I think....that little pink nose, especially. It's the tails that get me.
I still have my granddog living with me--a 12 year old Beagle. I'm thankful. And thanks to you all for listening and caring.
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Kim M.
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| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Assembly of God, Church of God, Assembly again, PCA, ... |
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Posted: Wed Feb 27th, 2008 01:56 am |
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pam wrote: Oh, Kim, the rats!!! But they do look cute and cuddly.....I think....that little pink nose, especially. It's the tails that get me.
I still have my granddog living with me--a 12 year old Beagle. I'm thankful. And thanks to you all for listening and caring.
Yeah, the tails generally get to people. But these guys have cuter tails because they're peach-colored. Not quite so "under-the-house-ish".
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