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roxyorthodoxy
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| Joined: | Tue Jan 16th, 2007 |
| Location: | New Jersey USA |
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| First Name: | Rox | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Revert |
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Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 01:48 am |
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Hi,
When I was channel surfing last night (one of my addictions!) I came across Joel Osteen's program. I have heard of him before and some people I know from Catholic backgrounds seem to like him.
Is he from the "health and wealth" gospel mentality? He certainly is slick and so polished! Plus a great and charismatic speaker. Has anyone out there in "Forum-Land" followed his ministry?
Any insight would be appreciated....
Roxy Orthodoxy
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setapart
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| Joined: | Sat Jan 13th, 2007 |
| Location: | Austin, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | Bill | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Born Catholic, Non-Denominational Charismatic, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 02:16 am |
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Hi Roxy Orthodoxy,
The following link is to an evangelical website Equip.org a ministry of Hank Hanegraaff. Although not Catholic they tend to have an orthodox view of the Gospel message.
Click here.
This is a book review of one of Osteen's popular books. I hope this helps.
Edited to shorten link.Last edited on Sat Feb 9th, 2008 03:00 am by
____________________
But for you who fear my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture. Mal 4:2
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Intercessor
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Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 02:16 am |
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Rox,
Before I began watching EWTN, I watched him weekly. He had a time slot just before my bedtime and was clean, pleasant, soothing, upbeat fare. He is sweet and seems to have a good heart.
However, I can't recall hearing him wrestle with hard truths and tough gospel demands. The message was sanitized, simplified, beautified. He tends not to tackle injustice, suffering, evil, deprivation.
Compared to what we get in the Catholic Church, he offers a diet of oversweet cherry Kool-Aid.
____________________
"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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DrDave
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Mildura, Australia |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle - Lapsed - Renewed Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 02:19 am |
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My Mother in law is a big fan of his, and had me tape a few broadcasts of his (I bought the sattelite dish for EWTN not TBN, but hey, sharing's good) I too found him to be very slick, but at his roots seems to be of the health & wealth, name it & claim it variety.
Regards Doc
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tedjenczewski
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| Joined: | Thu May 10th, 2007 |
| Location: | Richmond, Virginia USA |
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| First Name: | Ted | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Presbyterian, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 04:10 am |
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| In my view the health and wealth ministries attempt to substitute "my will" for "thy will be done", or God's will. These preachers run away with gospel verses such "ask anything in my name....." or "if you have faith as a tiny mustard seed ask this mountain to move and it will move". This is interpreted to mean that if we have sufficient faith and ask for, say, a cadillac, we will receive it. Or, if we get sick, we will get well and not suffer death if we have enough faith. The problem is that these verses are taken out of context with the other scriptures. For example 1John 5.14 "if we ask anything ACCORDING TO HIS WILL he hears us. Paul teaches that "he has made known TO US in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will according to the purpose which he set forth in Christ" Eph 1.9. The believer conforms his will to God's will through grace. And what is God's will? "for this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from unchastity" 1Thes 4.3; and "give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God for you" 1Thes 5.18. Not much is said in scripture about earthly riches, good health and cadillacs as being God's will for us. Paul says he asked the Lord to relieve him of a malady three times, and the Lord refused saying that "my power is made perfect in weakness" 2Cor 12.9. Apparently it was not God's will to cure Paul of his "thorn ... in the flesh".
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"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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Perplexed
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Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 02:37 pm |
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As some wit said, no one would buy the tasteful and decorative plaque that reads, "In this world ye shall have tribulations," down at the Gospel Book Store.
Plus, it can do real damage to young faith. Early in my Christian walk, I attended bible studies by a Name It and Claim It crowd (or, as we later paraphrased, Blab it and Grab it). When my marriage became troubled (and finally dissolved) the only thing I heard from these guys was that if I had more faith God would heal my marriage. Well, my wife wasn't interested in healing anything, and that was that.
I got so confused and angry that I would have nothing to do with Christians or church for almost two decades. Paul had nothing on me when it came to wanting to throw Christians to whatever lions I found handy.
It took a long time before common sense -- i.e., Catholic teachings -- showed me that taking a deep breath and flexing the muscles of faith, acting as if everything depends on how fervent and deep your personal faith is...is just another form of Works, of believing that my salvation and my walk all depend on me and what I do and how validly and completely I "believe." Unlike partaking in the sacraments, in obedience, which can be observed by myself and others, that so-called "internal witness," is impossible to compare or confirm.
So, although this type of preaching may appear sanitized and simple, there can be some real hurt behind the hype. Just my personal opinion, y'understand.
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EMarshallBuckles
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 19th, 2007 |
| Location: | Rockville (Near Richmond), Virginia USA |
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| First Name: | Marshall | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Christian Church,Episcopal Church,Baptist denomination,learning about RCC |
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Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 03:01 pm |
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| One thing I have found about large churches like Osteen's is that even in you participate in smaller groups within the church, you can still get badly lost in the crowd. You can attend a church like that for years and nobody knows who you are or anything about you other than, perhaps, a record of how much money you give if they even keep track of that. Sadly, there has been a trend, among protestant churches, to try to build up larger churches instead of having local parishes responsible for the spiritual care of their communities. They also tend to be churches where you'd better go around saying that everything is just so "cheerio", just so wonderful and happy all the time or you are viewed with suspicion assuming anybody actually knows who you are. And the TV ministries and being on TV tends to be the be all and end all of their existence and especially the most important thing to the clergy. Now, mind you, I don't know Osteen personally so I have no idea what he is really like in private, however, even so, I have seen these sorts of things going on for years elsewhere and I tend to view some of these churches with suspicion. And, yes, the preaching can often be very "sanitized and simple", sort of "the milk of the Word instead of the meat of the word". And, "Perplexed", I am sorry to learn about the situation between you and your ex-wife. May God grant you continued healing and peace.
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Intercessor
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Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 06:42 pm |
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Intercessor wrote:
However, I can't recall hearing him wrestle with hard truths and tough gospel demands. The message was sanitized, simplified, beautified. He tends not to tackle injustice, suffering, evil, deprivation.
Compared to what we get in the Catholic Church, he offers a diet of oversweet cherry Kool-Aid.
Perplexed wrote:
So, although this type of preaching may appear sanitized and simple, there can be some real hurt behind the hype. Just my personal opinion, y'understand.
Absolutely, Perplexed. Guess my point wasn't clear. Just as a diet of oversweet cherry Kool-Aid leaves a child's body malnourished and vulnerable to stress and illness, so a diet of only Osteen-type messages leaves the hearer unprepared for persecution, temptation, heartbreak, and so forth. After a while one longs to hear a good sermon/homily on Christ's warning us that the world would hate us, since the world hated Him.
When I encounter persons caught up in prosperity gospel, I like to point them to St. Paul's account of all the things God allowed him to suffer.
2 Corinthians 11:23-28 list paraphrased from NIV
(Forgive the lack of parallel structure.)
worked much harder than others
in prison more often than others
flogged more severely
exposed to death repeatedly
five times received thirty-nine lashes from the Jews
beaten with rods three times
stoned
shipwrecked three times
spent twenty-four hours on the open sea
constantly on the move
dangerous rivers
bandits
dangerous countrymen
threats from Gentiles
lack of safety in the city, in the country, and at sea
dangerous false brothers
long, long hours of labor
lack of sleep
hunger and thirst
cold and naked
stress of worrying about all the churches
And, of course, God allowed His own Son anything but ease and prosperity.Last edited on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 07:13 pm by Intercessor
____________________
"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
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Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 07:25 pm |
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I found a pretty good critique of Osteen on a major Protestant blog (Challies). And another from "The Internet Monk": Michael Spencer.
Further (Protestant) critiques:
The Leaven of Lakewood (Rev. Robert S. Liichow)
Osteen's Ignorance (Rev. Robert S. Liichow)
Apprising Joel Osteen's Word-Faith Teachings (Ken Silva)
Joel Osteen: Smile When You Lie (Ken Silva)
Preaching a False-Positive With a Smile (Mike Oppenheimer)
Outing Joel Osteen: A Challenge to the Evangelical Blogosphere (Michael Spencer)
Joel Osteen: Your Best Life Now (audio sermon by Baptist Jeff Riddle)
The Gnosticizing Joel Osteen (Denny Burk)
For a biblical critique of the general school of thought that Osteen is part of ("Word of Faith" / "Prosperity" / "Name it Claim it", etc.), see my paper:
Biblical Refutation of "Hyperfaith" / "Name-it-Claim it" Teaching:
Is it Always God's Will to Heal in Every Instance?
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Michael Ewing
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Posted: Thu Jan 24th, 2008 11:53 pm |
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I'm suspicious of the guy, can't say for sure why.
I recently spoke with an evangelical friend of mine who offered some great insight. Joel Osteen is a great "self-help" guy or a great personal coach, but what he has going is not a church.
Apparently there was an episode of 20/20 or 60 minutes or one of those shows where he seemed to have an "anything goes" when it comes to faith stance. I did not see it, but the above mentioned friend told me about it and I guess Osteen has caught some flack for it.
Mike
____________________
"Jesus said to him : I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" - John 14:6
"Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up" - Gal 6:9
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Candlemass
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Posted: Fri Jan 25th, 2008 12:14 am |
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| I've found some of Joel's teachings to be helpful in the past, while I don't agree w/everything he says, I think he is unfairly lumped in w/the likes of Benny Hinn or Kenneth Copeland.
____________________
"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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MichaelStEdmund
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Posted: Fri Jan 25th, 2008 01:50 am |
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A year or two ago, I was watching a late night news program regarding how Christians from various traditions viewed homosexuality. One of those guests was a nun who seemed to take a more liberal view of the issue. Two other participants in the discussion were Joel Osteen and Father Richard John Neuhaus of "First Things" magazine. Fr. Neuhaus offered a very intelligent, balanced, straight-ahead presentation of homosexuality in the light of Catholic truth. It was painful and uncomfortable and everything that seriously discussing this topic should be. When Osteen's time to talk came, he simply said something like, "Oh, we just love everybody! Everyone is welcome to come worship with us!" I understand what the man was trying to do - get people with needs into the orbit of some sort of Christian teaching - but his approach came across to me as evasive. Between Neuhaus (unblinking Catholic theology) and Osteen (selling and marketing the Gospel) I saw a serious parting of the ways.
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"Faith seeking understanding" - St. Anselm of Canterbury.
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abbycat
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Posted: Mon Jan 28th, 2008 08:58 pm |
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Health and wealth is a perfect way of stating his ministry.
abby
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jsking1964
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 02:42 am |
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As a newly baptized Catholic as of today, it somewhat destresses me that our country has been somewhat lead by the idea that if you stick with God and read the Bible literally and follow it that you will be wealthy and successful. This is the message that Joel Osteen and other Protestant ministries profess. I have tried to follow these ministries, and I finally got fed up with these kind of feel good ministries.
Please hear that I am not saying that all ministries are like this. However, for the most part this is what the Christuian TV and Radio ministries preach. Now, it has gotten so bad that most of the major main-line denominations have followed in the same path by offering contemporary based worship music while pushing out the sacred religious offerings. At the same time, we have seen scores of people leaving the Catholic Church and heading to these churches that offer a better view of the Word of God.
Let's not forget that this has only happened since about the early 1970's- justy about the same time of the 1973 Supreme Court ruling about Roe v. Wade. While I am not blaming the Court or the government per say, I am just pointing out some of the weaknesses of the Protestant church and what it has cost us here in the Catholic faith. While our pews have been emptying, we are still one of the largest Christian Religions in the world. Going to any major Catholic Church and you will see scores in our cathedrals and churches with a security officer directing traffic in our parking lots.
That is all in my personal opinion.
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Your friend in Christ, +
JS Benedict
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemed. Mark 16:16
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setapart
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 03:20 am |
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Benedict,
Refering to the numbers of Catholics that leave the Chruch stresses all the more the importance of shining the light of God's glory revealed in the Sacraments and Eucharist among those whom we rub shoulders with in our parishes. By patiently sharing our new found joy and knowledge of the Faith with our fellow Catholics who may have lapsed into lukewarmness or may have taken for granted their Faith, we may perhaps with the prayers of the Faithful here on earth and with those in heavenly glory shine the light that we have been blessed with by our heavenly Father.
God Bless,
Bill
____________________
But for you who fear my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture. Mal 4:2
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Candlemass
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 03:25 am |
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| This website has been and ministry has been a great help to those who are endevoring to enter or re-enter the Church, it is also proof that many are returning.
____________________
"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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setapart
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 04:11 am |
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I am in total agreement with you - this website - the articles, testimonies and forum have been a great help to me. In my case, it was the testimonies that I devoured before I got into the teaching articles, then I got enough courage to sign up for the forum.
God Bless
____________________
But for you who fear my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture. Mal 4:2
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danica
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 07:53 am |
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A personal view - not doctrine:
Joel has been a great insperation to me; he and Benny Hinn are the only Protestant preachers that I follow.
Benny Hinn was raised in a Catholic school for a few years, and Jesus appeared to him in that time. He and his wife are best friends with the head of the Catholic Church. John-Paull II had a great love for Benny, and Benny for him.
He was present at our Father's funeral in 2005.
Benny Hinn has a very special place in my heart, as he is much like the priests. He is also a believer in all that the Catholic Church does.
Joel is a great faith speaker. But I agree, we must get serious on homosexuality and such, but overall, I love him!
What Joel's point is, I believe, is that our life follows our words - and our health follows our state of mind!
Which is all truth. As any doctor would tell you.
But I understand what everyone is saying, and agree.
But I understand that he loves our Lord very dearly, and has given his life for the Body of Christ.
We can just pray that God will correct him in his errors.
God bless.
Last edited on Tue Jan 29th, 2008 07:55 am by danica
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http://christcatholic.proboards74.com
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Truthseeker
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 06:03 pm |
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hi all- one handed typing because of surgery so lots of typos.
i used to watch joel. sometimes, i still watch the very beginnig so i can say, "this is my bible..... i will never be the same, in jesus' name". he seems to very sincerely love the lord. t most of his sermons seem to be about how being a good disciple brnrfits you. yes, you should do all the lord asks, but you will be richly blessed for it. that is a difficult message to understand when yourblessings are miscarriage, breast cancer, etc. - which is not to say i don't see the blessings that come along aith that, i just don't think they are th kind he's talking about.
he told a story once, before i came home, and while talking about receiving blessings as a christian, about being on an airplane, and there was one vacant seat in first class, so they took a random drawing and called his name. he said - the drawing was spposedly random, but i knew god was blessing me. now, that could be tru, but then i had to wonder, was he the only christian on the entire plane?? so, i started to lose confidence in his message after that.
i have learned here, that we serve god because we're supposed to, not because we expect to be rewarded for it, and while i'm tha first one who would love rewards, i don't want that to be my reason for submission, and i think thats the biggest message joel sends out - although wit a true desire to please god.
love, laura
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Lord, please make my will your Will!
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Annie
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 06:08 pm |
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Hey, everybody, Truthseeker's back!!
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Annie
Ora et labora
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Truthseeker
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 07:29 pm |
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Annie wrote: Hey, everybody, Truthseeker's back!!
how much love can one person receive from a bunch of family she doesn't actually know??? i typed my week an then saw a bunch of posts from you all wondering about me. you have made my day GREAT!!!!!! just cause you show you care. thnaks so much.
laura
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Lord, please make my will your Will!
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 08:31 pm |
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Truthseeker wrote:How much love can one person receive from a bunch of family she doesn't actually know?
I think we’re pretty well acquainted anyway, Laura. I’ve prayed for you every day since you joined the forum.
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Jan 30th, 2008 12:27 am |
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Truthseeker wrote: Annie wrote: Hey, everybody, Truthseeker's back!!
how much love can one person receive from a bunch of family she doesn't actually know??? i typed my week an then saw a bunch of posts from you all wondering about me. you have made my day GREAT!!!!!! just cause you show you care. thnaks so much.
laura
We woulda sent flowers but we didn't know where to send 'em! I'm so glad to have you back, I won't even fuss about the typos!!! 
(Kermie's doing backflips. The gator is eyeing him intently.  )
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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roxyorthodoxy
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Posted: Wed Jan 30th, 2008 06:22 pm |
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Hi, all,
I know this is late in coming....but I wanted to thank all of you for giving me the "scoop" on Joel Osteen. Just what I thought....health and wealth gospel!
Dave, thank you for the many books on Mr. Osteen...I especially liked the blinking eyes on the one book jacket.
God bless you all! You are the best!
Roxy Orthodoxy
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