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ApostolicFreedom
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| Joined: | Mon Jan 21st, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Call me Charity! | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Previously in modalist group for 1.5 years until came to ... |
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Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 04:37 pm |
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Hello! GOD blessu all!  My name is Sheri, but I will be taking back my birth-given name "Charity" someday, legally, and soon; so please, call me Charity!
I am a new member, not only of the forum, but I'm also going to be a new member (in full communion) of the RCC come this Easter Vigil! I have been studying certain subjects within Catholicism (Eucharist, Apostolic Succession, even genuflection!, etc.) for slighly over a year. I am in RCIA and TOTALLY enjoying the Rituals and attending Mass. Father S (what I will call him in the forum) is a great leader, and very patient...and, a mentor of mine beyond his knowledge. He is OSB and once this was brought to my attention, I've been studying St. Benedict and the Oblates (Secular Order). What an interesting and special position in life he has!
My baby almost died in a hospital 2 years ago to a viral infection, and when I prayed faithLESSly to GOD (with Whom I had no relationship) as a last resort, and she was miraculously released the very next day, I came to the realization that GOD exists.
Well, I knew nothing of Jesus, except He'd died on a Cross. Long, long, long story short!... I sought a church, and was invited to a UPC (pentecostal, modalist).
Once I began studying the Bibles (histories, Apocrypha, etc), religions, doctrines, dogmas, traditions, histories, Apologetics, Didache, Code of Canon Law!!!, I realized I was NOT where I belong. What pushed me OUT of that church completely was that they deny the existence of GOD the Father in the Holy Trinity. Believe me, I studied day and night, when able, once I came to the decision that I needed to find the Truth. I found out many things of the LORD that the previous church just wasn't consistent with. I even studied Tertullian in order to establish a better understanding of the UPC "Jesus only" belief. He was helpful irregardless of how he "ended" up in the last of his days, because through him, I found out the definition of "Trinitas", or "Trinity"...being the nature of GOD in three persons, inseperable as GOD but definitely distinct persons of GOD! Plus, the Church sheds light that not all mysteries will be revealed to us in our lifetimes... but, anyway, once I began investigating the Trinity, I learned the Oneness group is (forgive me for this word) heretical. I also couldn't come to terms with the fact that thier doctrine and church were both established in the late 1800's. I do not view them as some might expect me to (with anger or resentment), but I do believe they love Jesus and are convinced they are correct in thier beliefs. After receiving the grace of GOD to see these things in a spiritual manner, I have "prayed away" negative personal feelings for that group.
That is when I began looking to the Pillars of Truth and drawing nearer to the CC. Because of my experience in the first church & my true desire to please GOD, I refused to enter the Catholic Church without knowing for a fact that it was where I am meant to be.
Days after what I call my Great Epiphany of the Holy Trinity, and during my first VISIT to Mass, while sitting in they way back - last pew - I felt the presence of Jesus so strong, I knew it was time to begin maturing in Christ and attempt to ENTER the Church He established. I still shake a bit during Holy Communion although I am not receiving Him until Holy Saturday. But it is anticipation of the LORD's flesh entering my flesh, and also the spiritual sense that I KNOW transubstantiation IS REAL, proving to my heart every Mass that I attend that the Real Presence is REAL.
Sorry, I get VERY carried away when writing about this, but I want you to know my experience...that I KNOW He is REAL, and heaven is REALLY moved there... (plus, I've read about the Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano BUT as if I need physical proof? No, but what person could dare deny the scientific results of the lab tests done on the Flesh & Blood of Christ that still exists today, intact!).
This brings me HERE. I have a conversion story to share. Not only did the pastor of the previous church attempt to persuade me into giving up my apartment and moving into a church apt., but I was also fired by my boss at the time, whom was a Sunday school teacher within the church, for my accepting the Holy Trinity and my eventual refusal to accept Modalist doctrine! Also, I lost the daily service of the church daycare for my toddler. I decided, because of the pressure and manipulation put upon me by the ministers and pastor, that I would rather starve to death than LIVE in denial of the nature of GOD in the Trinity. Boy, I sure felt like they were trying to force me into a bind so that I would have no choice but to verbally deny GOD the Father...but I knew it was a ploy and knew it would be a severe mistake had I not gotten VERY far away from the people in that church and entire organization! My sense were ALIVE with caution at that point!
They call my home every once in a while, and even email me with the message that I'm under "spiritual attack" and such... but take my word, please, for this, if anything... I KNOW I am under spiritual attack, like the rest of the world that tries to peacefully come to the fulness of Truth... but if we have to break through a few obstacles... whether they be financial trouble or verbal condemnation, so be it!
I gave Fr. S my word... I will live and die in full communion with the Catholic Church. Regardless! This is my stance. I am grateful to him and the entire Christian community that has welcomed me Home. It is my desire, my first and last request of life, that I may know Jesus and that He knows me.
I hope it is not bothersome that I've told you so very much of my history! It is not really a lot considering I am quite tempted to tell of the many fallacies in the previous church used against the CC in order to try to sway a visitor from the Truth, but maybe in another area of the forum, I can join a conversation!
So there's a short story HAHA!!! BELIEVE me... I could write ALL day about the wonderful journey I've been on so far!
Thank you for taking the time to read this and have a great day.
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MichaelStEdmund
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| Joined: | Fri Dec 28th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Michael | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Convert from pentacostal/charismatic/holiness background |
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Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 05:04 pm |
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What an incredible, mind-blowing story. Welcome to the forums.
In my part of the country, we refer to the UPC and similar groups as "Jesus Only," and they usually seem much more mild-mannered (at least in public!) than the people you've known. Gloryosky, I haven't heard of that kind of economic and social manipulation in years. Yet, I'm sure that it happens all of the time.
Thank you for your dedication to the truth of the Holy Trinity and the truth of Christ's own Church.
____________________
"Faith seeking understanding" - St. Anselm of Canterbury.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 05:29 pm |
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ApostolicFreedom wrote: please, call me Charity!
Happily. Welcome to our forum and thanks for sharing your story.
And welcome home.
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Dave Armstrong
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| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
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Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 09:46 pm |
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Hi Charity. That's a wonderful testimony.
I'm familiar somewhat with UPC, having studied many "cults" in the course of my apologetics. One argument we would always use against their doctrine was to ask: "Who was it talking when Jesus was baptized and a voice from on high said, "This is My Beloved Son, with Whom I am well pleased" (Matthew 3:17)?
We're delighted to have you here. Your enthusiasm is infectious.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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MichaelStEdmund
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| First Name: | Michael | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Convert from pentacostal/charismatic/holiness background |
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Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 10:30 pm |
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Dave Armstrong wrote: Hi Charity. That's a wonderful testimony.
I'm familiar somewhat with UPC, having studied many "cults" in the course of my apologetics. One argument we would always use against their doctrine was to ask: "Who was it talking when Jesus was baptized and a voice from on high said, "This is My Beloved Son, with Whom I am well pleased" (Matthew 3:17)?
We're delighted to have you here. Your enthusiasm is infectious.
Hi Dave,
You're right, Charity's enthusiasm is infectious.
Matthew 3:17 does bring up a good, logical question and a fair minded person would have to give it some thought.
Unfortunately, I've gotten a "O ye of little faith - God can do anything He wants to!" response to it.
This kind of response completely glosses over why Jesus would split up into Father, Son and Holy Spirit at the baptism by John, but by that point you're "questioning God" and the discussion is effectively over.
You've spoken to so many people over the years - how would you follow up on the kind of scenario I've painted here in order to keep from being brushed off?
Thanks,
= M
____________________
"Faith seeking understanding" - St. Anselm of Canterbury.
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ApostolicFreedom
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| Joined: | Mon Jan 21st, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Call me Charity! | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Previously in modalist group for 1.5 years until came to ... |
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Posted: Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 04:04 am |
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| Thank you all for the warm welcome. I will tell you that I've gotten many negative responses and even ignored by those that say "GOD can do whatever He wants!" when responding to a question. I would love to learn more tonight, but must sleep soon! GOD bless, and hope to chat sometime in the near future!
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TotusTuus
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| Joined: | Tue Oct 31st, 2006 |
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| First Name: | Mark | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic (thanks Mom and Dad!) |
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Posted: Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 05:35 pm |
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Charity,
Thank you for sharing your story. It is not a bother at all - rather a huge inspiration.
I wonder how I would behave if my home, job and finances were threatened because of my faith ...
You should be proud of yourself ...
____________________
TTM!
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 07:30 pm |
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You've spoken to so many people over the years - how would you follow up on the kind of scenario I've painted here in order to keep from being brushed off?
Hi Michael,
The way I reply to this kind of thing, that I would describe as an appeal to blind faith, is to say: "if you follow a religion that brushes off reason and questions of fact with this much ease, then how can you have any reason whatever to follow it in the first place?"
In other words, if faith is completely disconnected from reason and (I would say) reality, then a person could believe any ridiculous thing whatsoever. He could think he himself is Jesus, or worship the God of Green Cheese in the Moon: anything goes, because there is no reason! Some Calvinist presuppositionalists talk like this, too.
This is quite obvious to most people in simply stating it, so if a person already discounts reason and logic, it'll be tough to get through to them, but you never know. Sometimes we can plant a little seed of doubt in people like that and it'll bother them down deep, then later more outwardly.
If you can spot any particular aspects of their belief-system that are reasoned-through (it's very difficult indeed to be completely irrational all the time!), you can use that and ask them why they are applying reason there but not in the other instance.
Or you can argue that all Scripture has to have some explanation and that we can't just dismiss whatever we can't explain at all.
You can also appeal to the verse where Jesus commands us to love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength. To love God with our mind requires thought and thinking and logic. We can't just say, "believe, no matter how absurd you may think something is."
Those are some of the options I might use in such cases, but you can only accomplish so much with a mindset that is basically brainwashed or voluntarily subjected to rote learning and repetition, and not based on reasoning in the first place.
Sometimes we have to stop talking if we come up against a brick wall. There may be opportunities later, esp. within a context of friendship or at least being with a person a lot, such as at work, or a relative, etc.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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MichaelStEdmund
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| First Name: | Michael | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Convert from pentacostal/charismatic/holiness background |
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Posted: Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 11:32 pm |
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Thanks David. From reading one of Charity's posts in this thread, it sounded as if she has had some similar "brush offs," so perhaps your advice will help more than just a few here.
I agree, it's difficult for people to be irrational all of the time, though I think most people are only irrational when it's convenient. I sometimes fall into that myself - as my wife would probably agree!
It reminds me of a dear friend of mine who I was attempting to engage in a conversation about the canon and origin of the New Testament. Rather than admit that the Church was instrumental in forming the canon, he slipped into a position in which the New Testament isn't even necessary and people are saved via the leading of the Holy Spirit and their own invincible ignorance. I've seen this sort of thing a lot - using the lowest common denominator (i.e., invincible ignorance) as God's "norm." Another variety of the same thing is "the thief on the cross didn't have to do thus-and-so, so neither do I." Faith without any creed or any dogma is a slippery, slippery thing.
Much appreciated.
= M
____________________
"Faith seeking understanding" - St. Anselm of Canterbury.
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ApostolicFreedom
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| Joined: | Mon Jan 21st, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Call me Charity! | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Previously in modalist group for 1.5 years until came to ... |
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Posted: Thu Jan 24th, 2008 07:07 pm |
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Wow! Thank you all for such great advice.
TotusTuus, I have tried to look at the experiences in the UPC as meant-to-be, rather than horrifying (which would be my own personal way of describing how awful it really was, in a nutshell). I am absolutely certain that the CC is where I belong, and had I not had such bad encounters in the previous church, I may not appreciate the Truth as much? I dunno, but all in all, I am beyond grateful for the undeserved graces of GOD that I've been given.
To all of you: I am watching your replies and taking the advice and info. I do appreciate any time you spend helping me to understand these things. Soon, I will no longer be able to check replies as often as I had been. I will be busy in my community, and have to cut internet time down majorly. I will visit here & there to see what I may learn!
Can I tell you things that I normally do not talk about? I hope so, because, well, I feel the need to mention this, and later, hopefully, a few more issues I had.
It is very hard for me to even converse with the UPC members. I know first hand what goes on in many of their churches. I've seen people running around the Sanctuary, rolling on the floor laughing hysterically, screaming in what seemed to be absolute terror, and much much more than that.
"Tongues". Sigh. I have studied enough (last year) to know better. Without being led to this view, I never accepted the strange ramblings on at the church, in the prayer rooms, even in public that would happen (the public tongues was rare). I even noticed that most of the tongues-talkers would say something like "shamalalalala". That does not sound like a word to me. PLEASE, forgive me for this if it is offensive, but I TRULY feel that many of the group would pretend to have tongues for one of two reasons...
Firstly, one is told that he/she does not have the Holy Spirit if there is no "evidence of tongues" after Baptism. (e.g. no salvation, according to them) They wait, and even surround a person at the altar (any given service) that might be vulnerable and wanting to repent and about 6-10 of them will stand and yell "tongues" in the person's face. To me, that seems to be intimidation, coersion, etc. Once I saw this, I realized the organization is a cult.
Secondly, people feel like they can be free to do as they please in the church (singing, dancing, rolling on the floor, etc.) and I wonder if people speak "tongues" in order to fit in. ??
I question if pretending to speak in a heavenly language is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?
I really do not judge these people as satanic or what-not, but I TRULY TRULY feel there is SOMEthing wrong in that group.
I have seen and heard much MORE than this, and I thank GOD day after day I had too much sense to remain in that group. But one of my questions NOW is...
I do not feel a desire to be friends with anyone in the UPC. I don't mind speaking with them in the grocery store, nor would I mind working side by side with one at work. But to be closely involved? I don't think I want that. One lady from the UPC continuously calls my home phone, and I just do not want to talk to her! Am I right or wrong by not calling her back? We were never CLOSE, but spoke at every service for a short time, twice a week, in passing. Do I continue to ignore her calls or contact her and apologize for not calling her back for these months?
THANKS! GOD bless, and have a wonderful weekend! Pray for me as I get closer to the Rites of Sending & Election (Feb 3), please!
Last edited on Thu Jan 24th, 2008 07:10 pm by ApostolicFreedom
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Thu Jan 24th, 2008 11:05 pm |
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The UPC is Satanic insofar as it teaches a false doctrine of God, and we know who the "Father of lies" is!
There are often false manifestations of tongues even in legitimate Christian denominations. But there is also a legitimate NT teaching on tongues from the Apostle Paul. Any group that says all must speak in tongues or that only those who speak in tongues are truly filled with the Holy Spirit, is teaching falsely. In fact, the latter doctrine was the reaso I never became a member of Assemblies of God. I thought it was unbiblical, and so couldn't sign on as a member in good conscience.
But I attended AG for four years, met many friends and my wife there, got married in the Church, and started my campus missionary work while attending there, so I have a lot of positive memories of it.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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ApostolicFreedom
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| First Name: | Call me Charity! | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Previously in modalist group for 1.5 years until came to ... |
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Posted: Fri Jan 25th, 2008 01:21 am |
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Dave, I am glad you have good memories of the past church! And that you met your wife and came to the truth? AWESOME! Seems you both have been blessed greatly! I hope the best for you two, and THANK YOU for telling me these things.
I am coming to a slow decision about the lady from the previous church that keeps calling me...I think she could use a pal that is not INSIDE the UPC... and I'm strong and sure enough that the CC is the true Church that I will not be persuaded FROM the CC, so there is no true danger in speaking to her.
Never know, maybe she will hear and see my joy in the Church...and that may lead to her learning the Truth. Who knows? I will call her soon to see what she may want to talk about.
GOD blessu.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Jan 25th, 2008 01:34 am |
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ApostolicFreedom wrote: Never know, maybe she will hear and see my joy in the Church...and that may lead to her learning the Truth. Who knows?
Just remember the famous teaching of St. Francis: "Preach the gospel at all times. When necessary, use words."
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tedjenczewski
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Posted: Fri Jan 25th, 2008 02:39 am |
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| Hi Charity, God has blessed us to have you here among us. I view churches like the UPC as having leadership that are "the wolves loose in the flock of Christ" that are referred to throughout the scriptures. These people lead simple believers (those who search for the good, but do not necessarily search for the truth) astray. Your posts indicate you desire to study the truth. I recommend you go to Dave Armstrong's website (see the bottom of his posts) and download "A biblical Defense of Catholicism" for only $5.00. You will find in it a well reasoned defense of the truth
____________________
"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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ApostolicFreedom
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Posted: Fri Jan 25th, 2008 06:48 pm |
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Hi! I am writing because I have GREAT news! And I want to tell the few of you that have been responding to my questions...
An atheist pal of over 16 years who has refused to engage in religious conversation with me in the past MUST be receiving some sort of blessing/grace! She is very very cold toward Christianity, usually...but lastnight, I made a yummy dinner for her and I and my daughter. My daughter and I held hands to pray at the dinner table (as usual, and I wasn't about to NOT pray just because an atheist was there)...and my friend took my kid's hand on her OWN initiative and said "amen" after our prayer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is HUGE! I've NEVER been "allowed" to talk to her about GOD without her giving me a month-long silent treatment in the past. This is HUGE! I KNOW I'm on touchy ground here... and am not well trained as to how I could verbally help her convert... other than her SEEING the changes in me or offering her the Truth should she open up to me... but what I do know is that SOMEhow, GOD is "rubbing off" on her!
I've invited her back today for a little chatting and dinner again (secretly, it's my way of following-up for me to decipher if she is going to open herself up to chat with me about GOD on her own) . I do believe I will put forth an effort to spend more "girl" time with her, and to become hopefully a "connection" to Jesus until she makes that step herself, should she ever.
Believe me, I have NEVER "preached" nor have I pushed, and I won't, ever!
But..........WOW! wowwwwwwww!!!!! ' '
ANY ADVICE IS WELCOMED 
GOD blessu all
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Jan 25th, 2008 07:11 pm |
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ApostolicFreedom wrote: ANY ADVICE IS WELCOMED
1. Leave a book on the table like "Catholic for a Reason", the Catechism, the Bible, etc. Wait for her to see it and say something.
2. Remember the words of St. Francis: "Preach the gospel at all times; use words when necessary". Let her see the change in you, and if she should ask you anything, respond honestly and lovingly.
Most people who consider themselves "athiests" actually do believe in God, but they have set aside the belief for a traumatic reason. In other words, they have been hurt by a human and blame God for allowing it. It's easier to blame God, for example, than to blame yourself for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or blaming your parents, or believing you were the victim of a random act. They believe that if they were worthwhile, God would not allow this to happen to them, so there must be no God. The fail to realize that God does not want us to be hurt, but he must allow others the free will to harm us. We become victims not of God but of sin. Try to feel out her pain. It's probably there somewhere.
And PUSH -- Pray Until Something Happens.
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ApostolicFreedom
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Posted: Fri Jan 25th, 2008 07:40 pm |
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Rick, thank you, and quickly:
I will leave the Compendium of the CCC that I have out tonight, and will keep an ear open for any possible chance to LISTEN. I will seek a soft spot in her about her past, as I do know that her father had something to do with the reason why she is not very social.
I will certainly continue to pray...thanks for lookin' out for us!
GOD blessu
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Jan 25th, 2008 07:59 pm |
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ApostolicFreedom wrote: I do know that her father had something to do with the reason why she is not very social.
It's hard to think of God as a loving Father if our own fathers were anything but. Perhaps you should think of God as a nurturing mother-type for your conversation, and bring out the feminine aspects of God such as creation, forgiveness, consolation, mercy, etc. This is very much part of our Catholic spirituality. Find something in the Compendium about the gender of God (God transcends gender and has both masculine and feminine characteristics) and keep it handy for reference.
I'll be praying for you tonight. Just let your love show, and you'll do fine. After all, God is love...
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Tina in Ashburn
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Posted: Sat Jan 26th, 2008 02:01 am |
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Charity, thanks for your fascinating story. I'm so happy you got away.
And this church doesn't believe in the "Father"? Well then who was Jesus talking to when He taught us to pray to our Father in heaven?
About the "tongues" thing - Your are reasonable to question the sincerity of some that pray like this. Afterall, even Jesus put us on notice when he admonished those who did penance and said prayers for all to see. People are susceptible to pride and want to look prayerful, or they want to fit in, or look important. This problem isn't new and isn't just about those who pretend to speak in tongues.
Also, when really speaking in tongues, isn't it always supposed to be real words or languages? Not made up babbling... When the Apostles spoke in tongues, they suddenly were speaking in unfamiliar languages understood by the foreigners there. Not that I know anything about this!
Welcome, I look forward to reading more from you.
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Tina
Arlington Diocese
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Tina in Ashburn
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Posted: Sat Jan 26th, 2008 02:03 am |
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CajunRick wrote: Most people who consider themselves "athiests" actually do believe in God, but they have set aside the belief for a traumatic reason.
Rick, great statement. And come to think of it, may be about more than just atheists.
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Tina
Arlington Diocese
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Michael Ewing
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| Joined: | Mon Dec 24th, 2007 |
| Location: | Iowa USA |
| Posts: | 59 |
| First Name: | Mike | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic, spiritually left the Church during late teens, dabbled ... |
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Posted: Sat Jan 26th, 2008 07:55 pm |
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Welcome home, Charity!
Thanks for sharing your story, it helps those of us who have been through similar things remain vigilant. Sometimes, I have the tendency to become complacent. Your story has helped alot.
Thanks also for sharing a bit about your previous church. Alot of that is so incredibly foreign to me that I just can't wrap my head around it. I have only seen people speak in tongues on TV, and I can't help but scoff. I'm sure there are people who have been touched over the years, but this seems strange to me. Interesting concern about this being possible blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. I suppose only the Lord can see their hearts, and I hope for their sakes that they are being faithful this way.
I never really knew that UPC was cultish, I have done some reading about some of the better known cultish "Christian" churches, ie, LDS, Jehovah's Witness, etc., and find it interesting that this particular church, which seems to be somewhat accepted in the mainstream, would engage in such heretical teachings as denying the Trinity.
Anyways, once again, thanks for the story and the great insight. Our prayers are with you.
Mike
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"Jesus said to him : I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" - John 14:6
"Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up" - Gal 6:9
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MichaelStEdmund
Member
| Joined: | Fri Dec 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 95 |
| First Name: | Michael | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Convert from pentacostal/charismatic/holiness background |
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Posted: Sat Jan 26th, 2008 10:15 pm |
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Michael Ewing wrote: I never really knew that UPC was cultish, I have done some reading about some of the better known cultish "Christian" churches, ie, LDS, Jehovah's Witness, etc., and find it interesting that this particular church, which seems to be somewhat accepted in the mainstream, would engage in such heretical teachings as denying the Trinity.
For those of us who have done our homework regarding the doctrine of the Trinity and the place of importance that it holds in orthodox Christianity, denying the Trinity is a HUGE issue. Rejecting the Trinity becomes a major "deal breaker" in the ecumenical dialogue between people who tend to think of themselves as Christians. There are various other "deal breakers," including the deity of Christ, the virgin birth, and so on. But you know what? That's for us. As I've mentioned several times before, most of the Christians I've known have been non-dogmatic, nondenominational types who "accept no creed but the Bible," and for them this sort of clarity is next to useless.
Some 20 years ago I was teaching a series of classes in a nondenominational congregation on the subject of the Trinity. When I came to the point that Jesus Christ was truly God and truly man, I had a revolt on my hands. I wasn't teaching the Trinity anymore, according to the common judgment of almost everyone there (all adults, 30's and 40's). In their view, Jesus was not God, He was "just" the son of God. THAT, to them, was the doctrine of the Trinity, and they could not be persuaded by any amount of reasoning, Scripture, etc. to the contrary. From their point of view, what I was teaching was "Jesus only," even though I stressed to them that such was not the case. For them it was a black & white, all-or-nothing, binary proposition with no other option possible.
I saw that I was in a frightening, hopeless situation. Fuzzy, careless thinking and a lack of fundamental Christian teaching had calcified into something that I could hammer away at all I wanted, but could not put the slightest dent in. I think that it was one of the first dominoes to fall for me in realizing that I needed to be dealing with a kind of thinking that was completely different.
That's why I'm so grateful for the Catholic community on this forum. One of many reasons, actually.
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"Faith seeking understanding" - St. Anselm of Canterbury.
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Michael Ewing
Member
| Joined: | Mon Dec 24th, 2007 |
| Location: | Iowa USA |
| Posts: | 59 |
| First Name: | Mike | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic, spiritually left the Church during late teens, dabbled ... |
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