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EMarshallBuckles
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 19th, 2007 |
| Location: | Rockville (Near Richmond), Virginia USA |
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| First Name: | Marshall | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Christian Church,Episcopal Church,Baptist denomination,learning about RCC |
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Posted: Wed Jan 30th, 2008 10:53 pm |
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In another thread, I had been hoping to get some opinions about two web sites, however, a certain voluminous poster seems to have "hedged me in" and I seem to be getting ignored. Respectfully, kindly speaking, the Moderators will have to move this to wherever it needs to go, I am just not going to try to sort through the many sections to try to find the correct place.
As for the web sites about which I would like your opinions, if you will kindly give them to this poor, misguided ecumenical Baptist, are the following:
http://www.catholicismunveiled.com/Contents.shtml
and
http://www.sbc.net/bfm/default.asp
As someone who is trying to understand the Catholic Church, which I DO greatly respect and admire, I am representative of millions of other so called Protestants who need to understand what the positions of Roman Catholic Church members are regarding the information presented in the above web sites in order to try to work out, in my own mind, which way I should go. Kindly speaking, I realize that the purpose of these forums is to shepherd people into the Catholic Church, and I appreciate that, however, ignoring posts of honest inquirers or trying to overwhelm someone with voluminous posts may not be the best way to accomplish that purpose I respectfully submit. I do not mean to to annoy anyone and apologize if I have. Even so, if you do not kindly, helpfully deal with these questions from me, you will receive them again in the future either from people here or from people on the street or elsewhere.
Also, I want to helpfully submit that many Baptists DO have a very positive view of Roman Catholics and the church and we do have a lot more in common that you might think. Well, forgive me, please, I just needed to get this off my chest and, again, would be interested in your opinions about the above. Thank you, may God bless you.
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Intercessor
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| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Jan 30th, 2008 11:38 pm |
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Hi, Marshall,
I thought you were perhaps wanting to hear only from "experts"; so I didn't respond. Also, there's so much material on each website; and I couldn't figure out what it was, exactly, that you wanted to know about them.
Maybe if you picked a narrower topic within each website and asked a specific question about it, we could more readily respond.
Or did you just want folks to pick something from the website and make a general comment on that one portion?
Grace and peace,
BeckyLast edited on Wed Jan 30th, 2008 11:40 pm by Intercessor
____________________
Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials. . .the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Blessed is the man who perseveres in temptation, for when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life. . . NAB James 1:2-4,12
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sewnsew
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arizona USA |
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| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Anglican, Episcopal /Catholic-04/07/07 |
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 12:21 am |
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EMarshallBuckles wrote:
http://www.catholicismunveiled.com/Contents.shtml
and
http://www.sbc.net/bfm/default.asp
Regarding the first site- that person has a serious grudge with the Catholic Church- I wonder just what her references are and exactly what the circumstances of her leaving the church were.
As for the second site it seems to be a site for Southern Baptists and other looking into that denomination. I am not sure what you were asking about it.
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3John4
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| First Name: | Dede | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic, Protestant, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 01:57 am |
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Marshall,
My protestant husband often spends time perusing sites similar to these, which I guess I just don't get. If you lived in communist China and you wanted to understand democracy, would you read the perspective of other communists on democracy? Would ya want Michael Moore to explain the core principles of the Republican party to ya? (Sorry, couldn't resist)
As a protestant myself for almost 20 years, I listened, studied, and believed what I was taught about the Catholic Church--even though I grew up Catholic. It wasn't until I began to study Catholicism as an adult, most specifically by letting the Church speak for itself through the catechism, that I was shocked to discover the fullness, logic, and beauty of everything that truly is Catholic. I was equally shaken to discover how much of what I had been taught as a protestant was inaccurate.
Dede
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wwjd
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| First Name: | wwjd | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic as of 4/7/07! |
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 02:47 am |
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Marshall,
I am a former Southern Baptist who was received into the Church last Easter Vigil. Prior to that, I read many a website that contained similar anti-Catholic rhetoric in my quest to search for "the truth". There are plenty of websites out there which will attempt to sway you to their way of thinking. I came across some real doozies, let me tell ya!! I eventually learned to steer clear of such sites which claim to be written by former Catholics and also those written by Protestants who are on a mission to "save" all the Catholics. I went to Mass, to RCIA, and I read my Bible to see what it had to say about the "issues" I had (or thought I had) with the teachings of the Catholic Church. I also prayed for wisdom to recognize God's will and even prayed that God would send some sort of sign so that I would know I was makiing the right decision . It was not immediate but eventually, God did give me the assurance I needed by filling me with a sense of peace. Read the Bible and the Catechism and pray , Marshall. God will show you the way! If it's books you're looking for, stick with Scott Hahn or Karl Keating.
As for the second website, I believe it is just a statement of the standard SBC beliefs.
Don't know if that helps but I pray that God will bless you on your journey!
Trish
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Truthseeker
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| Joined: | Wed Oct 4th, 2006 |
| Location: | Costa Mesa, California USA |
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| First Name: | Laura | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | lapsed and returned CATHOLIC!!!!!! |
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 02:56 am |
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I protect myself from places/people/things that might shake my faith, so don't/won't visit questionable websites. Makes me less than helpful here.
God bless!
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Lord, please make my will your Will!
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Credo Catholic
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| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 03:01 am |
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IMO:
The first website, by the former nun, is selling four books she wrote to denigrade the catholic church. Obviously she wouldn't have left the church if she had not been unhappy with it. So her books are intended to dissuade people from joining the church, or staying there. I wouldn't want to spend the money to buy one just to look for errors in it. I did see one line where she said protestants believe the Bible to be infallible and catholics believe the Pope to be infallible. Well, she didn't say catholics also believe the Bible to be infallible. A person who didn't know better would think catholics don't belive the Bible as much as they believe the Pope. Untrue.
The second website, the Southern Baptist Convention website, is of course a homepage and information about the Southern Baptist Convention. It is developed and maintained to help people who are baptists or considering becoming baptists to read their most recent issues and statements.
I wouldn't trust the first website for truthfulness. The second website is just plain ole baptist rhetoric and probably doesn't contain any outright anti-catholicism.
As a catholic trying to grow spiritually in my faith, I don't read websites or material from protestant denominations, anymore than as a married woman I spend time with men other than my husband. I have chosen my spiritual spouse, and won't compromise my relationship by dabbling in the doings of others!
Just my 2 cents!
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 03:02 am |
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Truthseeker wrote:
I protect myself from places/people/things that might shake my faith, so don't/won't visit questionable websites. Makes me less than helpful here.
On the contrary, Laura. You stand out precisely because of the purity of the grace God has given you. The words you speak are eloquent and effective because of your closeness to him. Look at how many forum users have been touched by you just in the past few days. How is this “less than helpful”?
David
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setapart
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 03:47 am |
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EMarshallBuckles wrote:
however, ignoring posts of honest inquirers or trying to overwhelm someone with voluminous posts may not be the best way to accomplish that purpose I respectfully submit. I do not mean to to annoy anyone and apologize if I have. Even so, if you do not kindly, helpfully deal with these questions from me, you will receive them again in the future either from people here or from people on the street or elsewhere.
Thank you for your interest in the CC. I agree with the other posts concerning the 2 websites that you referenced. Karl Keating wrote a book entitled
Catholicism and Fundamentalism
This book addresses the accusations against Catholicism from the most common sources.
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But for you who fear my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture. Mal 4:2
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tedjenczewski
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 04:06 am |
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Peace be with you Marshall. I read a few Chapters in Catholicism Unveiled. I read the chapters on "Source of Authority" and "Tradition". My general reaction to those sections is that they were written by an individual who has virtually no training in Catholic teaching, which is unexpected if the author is really an ex-nun. For example, the New Testament canon is treated as though it were a meteorite that dropped into the hands of Christians at the death of Christ rather than as a collection of infallable documents recognized and defined by the authority of the church during the course of the first 400 years. The author then proceeds to accept the idea that the entire scripture can be understood in its entirety by any reader who desires to know God (Luther's plowboy). The "ex-nun" appears to believe that t the church, the body of Christ, is not essential to the plan of God revealed in Christ. Most all of the verses quoted are taken completely out of context to support a "sola scriptura" point of view. The author shows no understanding of what the tradition actually is, nor does she cite any of the scripture verses that refer to the tradition and to the passing on of the tradition. She does not understand papal infallability and the authority of Peter as defined by the church. She clearly has never read any of the fathers of the church from the first three centuries.
Formulating written arguments against all the "ex-nun's" positions would consume more time (and knowledge) than I can devote to it. Thankfully though, that work has already been done for us. I recommend you sit down with the following books: The Bible; "A Biblical Defense of Catholicism" by Dave Armstrong; "Catholic Doctrine in Scripture" by Gregory Otis; "Where is that in the Bible" by Patrick Madrid; "Why is that in Tradition" by Patrick Madrid, and "The Faith of the Early Fathers" by William Jurgens. THEN, read again things like "Catholicism Unveiled". The interpretation of scripture based upon the selection of a few verses out of context with the entire bible, the lack of understanding of both Jewish and Christian Tradition, and the complete lack of knowledge of the faith of the early church will become overwelmingly apparant.
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"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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EMarshallBuckles
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 04:22 am |
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Intercessor wrote: I thought you were perhaps wanting to hear only from "experts"; so I didn't respond. Becky, in my humble opinion, you ARE an expert and I value your opinions very highly!
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EMarshallBuckles
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 04:26 am |
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To all who replied above, thank you for your very kind replies. I value them and will take to heart what you had to say. As for the link to the Baptist Faith and Message, if anybody happens to know of any Catholic analysis which has been written about that, I would be grateful if you would kindly let me know.
Please pardon the tone of my initial post above. Right now, I am going though a sort of "spiritual struggle" in my mind and heart - firm in my Christian faith yet not so firm in my denominational affiliation. Please kindly pray for God's guidance for me. Thank you again for your replies and I thank anyone who may reply after this.
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Candlemass
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 04:35 am |
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David W. Emery wrote: Truthseeker wrote:
I protect myself from places/people/things that might shake my faith, so don't/won't visit questionable websites. Makes me less than helpful here.
On the contrary, Laura. You stand out precisely because of the purity of the grace God has given you. The words you speak are eloquent and effective because of your closeness to him. Look at how many forum users have been touched by you just in the past few days. How is this “less than helpful”?
David I concur, a person need not be steeped in apologetics to be helpful to those who are endevoring to enter the Church here. I believe the Holy Spirit uses people where they are uniquely gifted, her gifts are quite helpful here.
____________________
"For I the blind who once could see, the bell tolls for me!"
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Intercessor
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 04:57 am |
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Ah, Marshall, you are ever the Southern gentleman.
We have folks in this Forum who have seminary training. I have none.
There are folks here who have studied and practiced the Catholic faith for decades. I'm still new at it. So, no, I am not an expert for answering questions on those websites. But you are very kind.
Oh, how Satan hates to see such a charming and persuasive gentleman drawing closer and closer to the Tiber. How he hates the thought of the Buckles family receiving graces for holiness through the sacraments, of being strengthened and blessed through the intimacy of Jesus' own body and blood. He will put up a fight. Count on it.
Follow the Truth. Obey the Truth. The struggle is part of the journey.
I know you have the courage to face hell itself for that daughter of yours.
So take heart.
____________________
Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials. . .the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Blessed is the man who perseveres in temptation, for when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life. . . NAB James 1:2-4,12
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Annie
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 02:06 pm |
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Apparently, this Mary Ann Collins is one of those many poorly catechized nuns and priests of the ‘60’s who left the Church after Vatican II to do their own thing. One issue which caused the big exodus from the orders in the '60's was the issue of obedience.
I read a document a couple of years ago from the EWTN library by a psychologist who was instrumental in destroying several consecrated orders through the use of psychology and psychotherapy. Many of the nuns "realized they were really lesbians" and left their orders, etc. I can no longer find this document but it was a real eye-opener. The psychologist now writes about it in shame and is sorry he had a hand in it all.
Okay, I found it and edited to add this link:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PRIESTS/COULSON.TXT
Last edited on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 02:13 pm by Annie
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Annie
Ora et labora
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Annie
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 02:40 pm |
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| And by the way, this points out how useless apologetics is anyway. All it is is people arguing their little points always taken out of context. Nobody has the big picture so anybody can prove anything. I have no use for apologetics.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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Candlemass
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 02:46 pm |
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Annie wrote: And by the way, this points out how useless apologetics is anyway. All it is is people arguing their little points always taken out of context. Nobody has the big picture so anybody can prove anything. I have no use for apologetics.
*Waits for Dave to chime in*
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"For I the blind who once could see, the bell tolls for me!"
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Annie
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 02:50 pm |
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| I wasn't referring to a particular individual, just generically. arguing little points settles nothing and only further polarizes.
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
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EMarshallBuckles
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 03:03 pm |
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| Back in the '70s, when I was studying psychology and sociology as an undergraduate (I finally quit doing that, rejecting the idea of a career in those areas, and got involved with government and law - lawyers can be on the sneaky side, but, at least, with them, you know what what to expect, ha, ha), I once saw a cartoon. Two psychologist see each other in an office hallway and say to each other "Good Morning!" As they walk away from each other, in their private thought balloons, you see them both think, "I wonder what he meant by that?!" It should be noted that in a survey of the various professions, psychologists and psychiatrists were found to have the highest suicide rates (railroad workers the lowest - guess there is something therapeutic of workin' on the railroad all the livelong day, ha, ha). It has long seemed to me that, except when informed by the Bible and including the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ, psychology and sociology can often become "false, secular religions".
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EMarshallBuckles
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 03:05 pm |
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Annie wrote: I wasn't referring to a particular individual, just generically. arguing little points settles nothing and only further polarizes.
Hmmm! Wonder how many angels can fit on the head of a pin?! 
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Candlemass
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 03:07 pm |
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Annie wrote: I wasn't referring to a particular individual, just generically. arguing little points settles nothing and only further polarizes.
I didn't think you were, he just may have a different view on apologetics! 
____________________
"For I the blind who once could see, the bell tolls for me!"
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Annie
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 03:29 pm |
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Do you notice on the web site of the former nun, for example, that she treats everyone who disagrees with her as the enemy? This is unhelpful to say the least and is not a feature of reasoned discourse.
Shutting up now,
Annie
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Annie
Ora et labora
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Candlemass
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 03:36 pm |
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Annie wrote: Do you notice on the web site of the former nun, for example, that she treats everyone who disagrees with her as the enemy? This is unhelpful to say the least and is not a feature of reasoned discourse.
Shutting up now,
Annie
Then this displays the dispotion of her heart, the basic idea of apologetics is to open up discusions w/those who will listen to reason, it does have it's limitations and we know ultimately it is God who changes the heart. However, from an apologetical standpoint, if someone were to see her engadged in a debate, they may see the gentleness of her oponent and be won over on that basis.
____________________
"For I the blind who once could see, the bell tolls for me!"
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wwjd
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 04:08 pm |
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Annie wrote: .... All it is is people arguing their little points always taken out of context. Nobody has the big picture so anybody can prove anything.
I agree that arguing serves no purpose. I think authors/apologists tend to lose credibility when they are constantly criticizing other denominations. It sort of goes against the teachings of Christ.....we are supposed to have unconditional love for our brothers and sisters. A former Priest from my parish once delivered a homily on judging others by saying that's God's job, not our job. We are called to love and serve the Lord by loving and serving others no matter who they are! In a sense, aren't we juding others when we say you're wrong, I'm right? Let the Holy Spirit work on their hearts and hope they see the love of Christ through our words and actions.
Don't get me wrong, I think apologists are great and serve a need we have to communicate the teachings of our faith but there are a few who need to "watch their tone".
Just MHO,
Trish
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3John4
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 04:28 pm |
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| I, for one, might never have made the leap back across the Tiber alone without the inspiration and confidence I gained through reading several books within the category of Catholic apologetics. Also, I know that I took part in and/or listened in on many friendly debates that, to anyone | | |
